Minnesota Recount: Team Franken glad their supporters are uneducated?
posted at 7:53 am on November 20, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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This has to be a first. In explaining why he believes Al Franken will prevail in the recount, a lawyer volunteering for Team Franken says that Franken voters are less educated and therefore more ignorant about how to fill in a bubble on a ballot. No, I’m not kidding:
Even the observers and lawyers have been instructed by their respective campaigns to not talk to the media. But Minneapolis lawyer Bill Starr, who is volunteering for the Franken campaign, was willing to say a few words. He said he thinks Franken will prevail. His hunch is based on a theory he has.
“People who voted for Coleman are more likely to have taken the SAT in their lifetime,” he said. “They’ve filled in circles. Franken voters are probably not college-educated. They’re new voters and immigrants. They’ve been brought in by groups like ACORN, from the inner cities. They’re more likely to make mistakes. I’ve bounced this off of minority people, and they agree with me.”
The “minority people” agree with him? Which “minority people” would that be? And what exactly did Starr mean by immigrants? Is he admitting that Franken and ACORN enticed non-citizens to vote?
Perhaps Starr might now understand why Franken’s team wants people to stop talking to the press.
For the record, of course, Minnesotans do not get their first exposure to optical-scan systems with the SAT. Students use Scantron-like forms throughout their education, just as they do everywhere. And even recently naturalized citizens and new voters can usually manage to grasp the concept of filling in a bubble.
But does Team Franken? They challenged this ballot yesterday as unclear on voter intent:
Apparently, the challenge relies on the fact that there is both an X and a “squiggle” in the bubble. Franken’s team must be arguing that the voter intended to cancel his/her vote for Coleman and leave the Senate race without a vote. Would that not undermine completely the idea of “undervotes” that Franken has been pushing for the last two weeks? Besides, if this voter wanted to “cancel” the vote, he or she would have just gotten a fresh ballot, which is an option clearly stated in the polling booths.
This is a desperation move, and Minnesotans should take a good look at the real Al Franken.
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If you take a coin, and rub the “bubble” underneath is the word “Franken”…kind of a “lotto” vote, the kind the inner city and immigrant folks understand…
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 8:05 AM
That was his strategy all along; we can get the stupid vote!
thomasaur on November 20, 2008 at 8:07 AM
I think what the Franken team wants the most are counters who are ignorant.
And without math ability.
drjohn on November 20, 2008 at 8:07 AM
BRING CHAD BACK!
drjohn on November 20, 2008 at 8:08 AM
I would have to agree with Franken. Only an idiot would vote for him.
sheesh on November 20, 2008 at 8:08 AM
Butterfly Ballot 2.0
Texas Rainmaker on November 20, 2008 at 8:09 AM
I really feel sorry for the folks in Minnesota if this moron wins. The pendulum will have swung to the outrageous left.
Rovin on November 20, 2008 at 8:09 AM
“People who voted for Coleman are more likely to have taken the SAT in their lifetime,” he said. “They’ve filled in circles. Franken voters are probably not college-educated. They’re new voters and immigrants. They’ve been brought in by groups like ACORN, from the inner cities. They’re more likely to make mistakes. I’ve bounced this off of minority people, and they agree with me.”
;;;;;;;;;
I keep trying to find something to say about this and aside from…no that wouldn’t be it either… jesus christ it makes my brain hurt. I really can’t find enough words to express… jesus lol
brianpierre on November 20, 2008 at 8:11 AM
Got yer real Al Franken right here:
http://tinyurl.com/5bmvbr
fivefeetoffury on November 20, 2008 at 8:14 AM
Franken’s team must be arguing that the voter intended to cancel his/her vote for Coleman and leave the Senate race without a vote. Would that not undermine completely the idea of “undervotes” that Franken has been pushing for the last two weeks?
No, it wouldn’t. The idea of undervotes that people have been talking about is that there are approximately 25,000 ballots that have votes cast for Obama/McCain with no vote cast in the Senate race between Coleman and Franken (this is according to the machine count). The theory is that there are some ballots that the machine read as no votes in the Senate race that actually do have marks that show the voter intended to vote for Coleman or Franken. During the hand recount, it will be up to the administering it to decide if the voter intended to vote for either.
As you say in your post, team Franken is challenging that one because there’s an X, then squiggle over it. The implication here is that someone put an X in then changed their mind and tried to “cross” it out.
Now, in a recount where there are only 215, those on either side are under great pressure to make every vote count (or not count). I’m not surprised that challenged this one. I’m sure it’ll be counted for Coleman, but there’s nothing wrong with challenging it, especially when you’re only supposed to spend 5 seconds on each ballot. I assume the instructions are – if there’s any question of intent, challenge it.
So no, this in no way undermines the idea of undervotes. But keep up your attacks on Franken, it’s a classy move. Meanwhile, the recount will go on and the man with the most votes will win.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 8:15 AM
And we pray it is Coleman
sheesh on November 20, 2008 at 8:17 AM
Exactly. I bet if some kind statewide poll or vote were to take place, Coleman would win decisively, by like 90 to 10 percent. There’s no way it would be close at all.
e-pirate on November 20, 2008 at 8:21 AM
Franken voters are probably not college-educated. They’re new voters and immigrants. They’ve been brought in by groups like ACORN, from the inner cities. They’re more likely to make mistakes.
The soft bigotry of low expectations.
Wait …
Franken voters are probably not college-educated
I thought colleges were FULL of liberals?
Tony737 on November 20, 2008 at 8:23 AM
Implication could also be someone put an “X” in the circle, and then realized he had to fill in the whole circle if it would be readable by the machine. So that’s what he did, even if a bit sloppily.
(Maybe he was a person whose parents could’t afford coloring books, so he never learned to color within the lines).
As Ed noted, if you want to change your vote, all you have to do is ask for a fresh ballot, and start over.
(The first ballot is defaced and put in the “spoiled ballot” box.)
Wethal on November 20, 2008 at 8:25 AM
The strategy of far left is to “dumb down” the people so they can be more easily controlled and make good worker bees, while the elites get to run things. Probably one of the reasons we have so many problems in the Democratically controlled schools across the USA.
DL13 on November 20, 2008 at 8:25 AM
Stay classy, Team Smalley.
ZK on November 20, 2008 at 8:25 AM
Al Franken hasn’t been in politics long enough to know that many people don’t vote for every race on the ballot. The tern “coat tails” applies to getting people to 1: vote down ballot & 2: vote for your guy down ballot.
But I guess all he has to have is 216 votes, so he doesn’t need to actually know anything.
kelley in virginia on November 20, 2008 at 8:27 AM
Are you serious? Pointing out an obvious vote for Coleman as questionable? And you question our class?
tottoritodd on November 20, 2008 at 8:30 AM
I don’t even see an ‘x’ on that vote. A squiggle, sure – but there is no defined ‘x’ on that ballot to my eyes.
In any event there is clearly no vote for Franken there. I don’t think too many people mark a candidate and then seconds later change their mind – especially in an election for a US Senator.
I could see an argument for a ’slash’ – but the bottom left of that slash might also be part of a ‘loop’ – and not part of a slash at all.
A Franken win would physically make me ill.
Mr Purple on November 20, 2008 at 8:30 AM
Franken is not only trying to find undervotes for himself, to build up his tally, but he’s also trying to cut down Coleman’s lead by challenging Coleman votes to get them thrown out. Losing this ballot would be one less for Coleman, even if it didn’t add one for Franken.
Wethal on November 20, 2008 at 8:33 AM
So now pointing out idiotic comments by a member of Franken’s team is, as you sarcastically put it, “a classy move”? Good grief. What would Franken or his team have to do for you to think it might be acceptable to criticize them?
forest on November 20, 2008 at 8:34 AM
“They’re good enough,
smartstupid enough, and, doggone it, I want their votes!”Frozen Tex on November 20, 2008 at 8:34 AM
Coleman would win in some kind of “run-off” situation like is going on in Ga. The Obama sheep can’t mount their enormous push to the polls twice in 2 mos.
kelley in virginia on November 20, 2008 at 8:36 AM
Not being from Minnesota I don’t understand how this race could have been close to begin with. I know Jesse Ventura was elected Governor, but he still only got 38% of the vote. A Race this important should have had Jimmy Carter over seeing it.
Tommy_G on November 20, 2008 at 8:38 AM
Yes, I question the class of anyone who writes stuff like this…
This is a desperation move, and Minnesotans should take a good look at the real Al Franken.
… based off one challenged ballot (which wasn’t even challenged by Franken himself). It’s a smear. It doesn’t explicitly state what the problem is with Franken, but it implies there is one. And for a rabid partisan group like the one at HotAir, they just assume Franken is up to no good. It’s the worst kind of politics — one that the right has mastered, going back to Nixon: the politics of insinuation and smear.
Aside from that, let’s clear one thing up. The recount will happen. Colemen and Franken have their teams out there looking at each ballot. Those ballots that are contested will be looked at later by impartial judges and cast or not cast for either candidate. At the end of the recount, either Coleman or Franken will win. There are no shennenagans being employed by either side. It’s an honest and fair recount.
I say this because I get the feeling that all these posts attacking Franken with vague implications are setting up claims of fraud of something in the case that Franken does win. But so far, nothing improper or illegal has occurred.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 8:39 AM
Yes it would. Ed’s point is that Franken has stated from the beginning that the “undervote” was proof of his supporters’ votes not being counted correctly. Since he always trailed Obama’s margin in the state, then some of the Senate race ballots must have been “undercounted” to Coleman’s benefit.
But when Franken’s team argued that the voter in question above had changed their mind, had put an X through the bubble and thus would have left the Senate section as a non-vote, then that undermines Franken’s argument. Here is then an undervote who was clearly not voting Franken.
In other words, Franken can’t have it both ways. He can have this guy’s vote tossed but realize it kills his “undervote” argument. Or he can allow Coleman this “undervote” and swear the other 99.9% are in his [Franken's] favor.
LastRick on November 20, 2008 at 8:41 AM
I am still shocked it was even close…Coleman must be the most inept campaigner in history…
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 8:42 AM
Is Ismail Haniyeh on the ballot?
forest on November 20, 2008 at 8:42 AM
Mr. Shipley: If you think those of us that post at HotAir are “rabid”, try the un-educated gun-clingers in rural pockets of America. They don’t discuss. They just shoot. At least we are civil.
kelley in virginia on November 20, 2008 at 8:43 AM
Yes, how dare Ed use a Franken lawyer’s actual words.
Very lame Tom.
rbj on November 20, 2008 at 8:43 AM
Oh, please. Any kid who has spent a year in the public school system has had numerous opportunities to bubble in scantrons. There are the yearly standardized tests used to evaluate the schools’ performance, not to mention the forms used regularly by teachers who utilize multiple choice questions in their assessments.
Bubbling may be the one skill public schools excel at teaching.
Disturb the Universe on November 20, 2008 at 8:44 AM
Mr. Shipley: you aren’t from the country, are you?
kelley in virginia on November 20, 2008 at 8:44 AM
Forensic investigation of the exhibited ballot is necessary. Is the squiggle over the X, or is the X over the squiggle.
From an inherently desperate person, such as Franken, expect desperate arguments. That’s all he has.
Yoop on November 20, 2008 at 8:44 AM
Why doesn’t he claim that they have trouble reading and that they didn’t have the patience to go through ‘Barkley’ and ‘Coleman’ before getting to ‘Franken’.
Phoenician on November 20, 2008 at 8:44 AM
However, and just a however, what if the rest of this guys ballot was absolutely perfectly filled out, with each bubble perfectly filled in…that would indicate that he did not want to vote for Coleman.
So the ballot is set aside, and if it becomes important then they discuss the ballot.
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 8:46 AM
Franken has proven what we’ve all known for so long:
Democrats actively seek out the “stupid” vote. They know anyone who uses half their brain is a conservative, so… who else do they have to turn to? I mean… come on! Did not John Ziegler’s video just prove this very point a few days ago as well? Why, yes, I believe it did.
Jockolantern on November 20, 2008 at 8:47 AM
If you squint your eyes just right, it looks like the voter was writing “@L” in the bubble. Clearly a Franken vote.
LastRick on November 20, 2008 at 8:48 AM
Your proof that supports this unequivocal claim is exactly what?
Yoop on November 20, 2008 at 8:50 AM
The first I had heard of the “undervote” argument was when Lanny Davis was trying to sell it on TV a week or two ago. I couldn’t believe he was serious. It’s the kind of argument only a seasoned attorney can make with a straight face. There’s no reason to question that many thousands of people voted for Obama but intentionally did not vote for Franken. I mean, there’s crazy, and then there’s crazy.
forest on November 20, 2008 at 8:50 AM
Lamest excuse ever. Any Scantron has directions that explain how to fill in a circle. For those who possibly can’t read, they even have a picture of what to do and what not to do. “Fill the circle in completely. Do not use an ‘X’.”
Perhaps the problem is that Franken voters just can’t read. Or see.
Karen_VA on November 20, 2008 at 8:50 AM
Utter crap. So now I have to be self-consistent in filling out my ballot bubbles? What about when I vote straight-ticket — you going to compare 1 bubble to itself?
LastRick on November 20, 2008 at 8:50 AM
LastRick on November 20, 2008 at 8:41 AM
Sorry, you’re wrong. The argument is there are 25,000 undervotes. There was a story in AP in which they reported 18,000 of those votes came from areas that voted for Obama, while 6,000 came from areas that voted for McCain. The argument goes on to say that the numbers favor Franken because IF there were votes cast for EITHER candidate that weren’t counted, it would benefit Franken because more seem to come from “Obama territory.”
Now, more importantly, that’s just a theory. It has no impact on the actually recount itself. No one is looking for “undervotes” while the recount is happening. In the hand recount, the machine total is thrown out the window. Each ballot is looked at by an impartial recounter and team member of team coleman and franken. all three are looking for voter intent. If there’s a question as to whether a voter meant to vote for either candidate, it’s challenged and put in a separate pile to be looked at later.
It’s pretty simple. There’s no “allowing” Coleman an undervote or not allowing him one. In the recount, it’s just a matter of trying to discern the voter’s intent.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 8:51 AM
And it also bears noting that he didn’t mark the ballot in any way for Franken or Barkley. So, Tom_Shipley and Franken are suggesting that this voter voted for Coleman, then changed his mind and decided to vote for no one instead, and didn’t bother to get a fresh ballot, knowing that he had done something he didn’t want to have count.
Uh, yeah. Sure he did. And there’s nothing dishonest in forwarding that theory. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ve got Miss Cleo on the line.
Pablo on November 20, 2008 at 8:51 AM
I participated in the recount yesterday for a Minneapolis precinct and I can tell you first hand that “the undervote should have gone to Frankin” concept is a friggen joke. First off, there aren’t that many real undervotes (Team Franken seems to want to call every ballot cast for Obama and not for him an undervote–that’s false. An undervote, for the purposes of the recount is a ballot with the senate race left unmarked. When you take out the 2 other candidates and people who wrote in write in candidates that gets you down a bit farther than just blank ballots.
We had maybe 8 or 9 undervotes in our count and they didn’t look like mistakes to anybody sitting at the table. They were blank for that race but marked for other races. A couple of people had even marked all the judges races on the back of the ballot–in Hennepin Co. that was an act of pure devotion to the idea of voting because there were like 50 of them and most of them were running unopposed. The idea that the voter intent was to vote for that race but they made a mistake doesn’t seem plausible with a ballot so carefully filled out.
The idea that all Obama ballots should be Franken votes was also not borne out by looking at how the individuals voted–they may have voted for Obama but we saw plenty that went Obama–Coleman and even R for Congress, R for State Rep. I wish somebody would do a correlation between R and D voting to show how split the tickets were this year in MN. Anecdotally it seems to be huge, since we got an overwhelming Obama victory but denied the House Democrats a majority (I think it was +2) and retained all the R members of congress, including an open seat. Franken shouldn’t feel left out of some kind of D sweep in MN because there wasn’t one.
MargaretMN on November 20, 2008 at 8:52 AM
You must transform your pity to contempt.
Minneapolis is a culture of deeply rooted self-deception; a psychoanalyst’s paradise. The people want so badly to be like New Yorkers they once tried to market themselves as the “mini-apple.” Hilarious, in a tragic way. These people are not well. How could I describe them? When you meet a Minneapolitan lib, you’re first struck by a curious outer shell, marked by stiff, controlled, politically correct speech. Every word is guarded and rehearsed to prevent offense. Yet you sense the hyper-vigilance is not so much concern for the the downtrodden as it is anxiety over committing a transgression, because they know, and expect you to know, the punishment is severe, and there is no satisfactory atonement. Then, assuming you’re not an obvious a member of an aggrieved victim-group, in which case he’ll patronize you until he can duck out of the encounter, he’ll move on to social class. What’s that? You’re not in the old money club? The snobbery kicks in. At this point, the Minneapolitan talks slowly and with dripping condescension if he talks at all. More likely, he will physically brush you aside and take your place in line. The encounter is over.
There is not a shred of exaggeration in what I say. It’s a dismal place to live. For the love of God, don’t come here.
jeff_from_mpls on November 20, 2008 at 8:56 AM
Karen_VA on November 20, 2008 at 8:50 AM
These are probably the same people who actually think Al Franken is funny and intelligent.
Why is it, if a Republican wins or has a chance of winning an election, it means that somehow potential voters for the Democratic voter were “disenfranchised”?
Man, that’s getting old.
kingsjester on November 20, 2008 at 8:57 AM
The idea that all Obama ballots should be Franken votes was also not borne out by looking at how the individuals voted
The only people floating this idea are conservatives who falsely claim that Franken people have suggested this. No one at team Franken has suggested that ballots cast for Obama without a vote cast in the senate race should count for Franken.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 8:59 AM
voter = candidate
way too early
jeff_from_mpls on November 20, 2008 at 8:56 AM
Come back from the ledge, Jeff!
Move down South. We’re friendly down here. Don’t hold Shep against us.
kingsjester on November 20, 2008 at 9:00 AM
Therein lies the problem. I don’t want people or government “discerning intent” when it comes to voting. When Franken’s team asks for a ruling on the vote above because they think the voter intended to back out of a Coleman vote, that should set off alarm bells. That should make you feel uneasy.
LastRick on November 20, 2008 at 9:01 AM
Amen, brother!
Karen_VA on November 20, 2008 at 9:01 AM
Keep in mind, my state is the home of Congressman Wife Beater Ellison, Ventura and ultralib Klobuchar; in 2006 we almost voted-in a woman who was running on the memory of her abducted son; and even though he’s been dead for years, people still display ginormous “WELLSTONE” signs in their yards every election season.
Bishop on November 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM
No, what I said was…if only one bubble looked like this, and the rest was all but perfect, that would show that this was an aberration. So you put it aside, and if it does mean something later, then you re-analyze it. Meanwhile you move on and count the obvious. Don’t take the time to analyze something that may not mean anything, just set it aside.
So when you get done, you have 20 weird ballots, the vote is decided, because chances are these 20 won’t have any bearing, and you have proved that you attempted to honestly count every ballot.
Relax…if you were losing you would do the same.
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 9:03 AM
Great update…
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 9:07 AM
If you want your vote to count follow the instructions provided at the time you cast your ballot. Fill in the bubbles as instructed. If you are not literate enough to follow the instructions, Oh Well! It is not that difficult.
thomasaur on November 20, 2008 at 9:09 AM
When Franken’s team asks for a ruling on the vote above because they think the voter intended to back out of a Coleman vote, that should set off alarm bells. That should make you feel uneasy.
There are any number of things that should make voters feel uneasy about their vote being counted: voting machine glitches, lost absentee ballots, etc… a hand recount with impartial judges ranks low on my list. And actually, it might be the least worrisome method of counting my vote.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 9:11 AM
You may be right on this one. He’s alleged a list of reasons for his losing but this one technically may not be one of them.
LastRick on November 20, 2008 at 9:12 AM
If you want your vote to count follow the instructions provided at the time you cast your ballot. Fill in the bubbles as instructed. If you are not literate enough to follow the instructions, Oh Well! It is not that difficult.
thomasaur on November 20, 2008 at 9:09 AM
Parkinson’s and any number of nerve disorders could cause the same thing to happen. I shattered my wrists in a fall a few years ago and have trouble making certain letters when trying to write longhand. just a thought
brianpierre on November 20, 2008 at 9:13 AM
Still trying, I posted yesterday the legal proceedings from Franken that state otherwise.
The only thing accurate in your and others statements is that they don’t use the term “undervote” seeing as that is not a legal term, buy a definition of strategy.
The legal actions determine the strategy.
I don’t want to keep posting the same information, but if you wanted to know, you would take 5 minutes and see his legal teams strategy…it is to challenge every vote not for him, and to challenge every ballot that was for Obama, but not for him, and specifically a vote for Obama and no vote at all for senate.
It is laid out by his legal team…very documented, but you would rather blabber what you “feel” then what is fact…not unusual for you.
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 9:13 AM
Well, his attorney say different…
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 9:14 AM
Ed, I was part of Alison Krueger’s recount team for Morrison County yesterday. I posted about it here. Out of the 1,400 ballots we reviewed, I’m guessing that we say such markings on the ballot 50-75 times. Each time we’d spot such a ballot, Russ Nygren, the man responsible for sorting the ballots, would stop & point out that the markings were consistent with the rest of the form. Neither side hesitated at agreeing with Mr. Nygren because it was that obvious.
Knowing that Franken is using this tactic shows their willingness to use any tactic to steal this election. Their tactics are nothing short of despicable.
LFRGary on November 20, 2008 at 9:15 AM
I don’t want to keep posting the same information, but if you wanted to know, you would take 5 minutes and see his legal teams strategy…it is to challenge every vote not for him, and to challenge every ballot that was for Obama, but not for him, and specifically a vote for Obama and no vote at all for senate.
It is laid out by his legal team…very documented, but you would rather blabber what you “feel” then what is fact…not unusual for you.
Assuming this is true: A) they have a right to do this. and B) this does not mean they believe that a vote for Obama with no vote cast in the senate should vote for Franken.
It just means they are challenging them to be looked at more closely.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 9:16 AM
Knowing that Franken is using this tactic shows their willingness to use any tactic to steal this election. Their tactics are nothing short of despicable.
What you described is not an attempt to steal an election. Franken’s team is following the law and votes are being correctly counted.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 9:19 AM
When you turn your public education system over to a labor union (NEA), why does the ignorance of the American voter surprise anyone with an IQ above double digits? Franken , who is mentally deficient and intellectually dishonest is perfect for the democratic lemmings that have been brainwashed to respond to code words and other conditioned stimuli without question. It is not only based on their ignorance, but stimulated by hate that is the motivating force. Ariel Durant said, “a great civilization cannot be conquered from without until it destroys itself from within.” She was soooo right.
volsense on November 20, 2008 at 9:20 AM
Well, his attorney say different.
OK, what exactly do his attorney’s say. You’re making an allegation here, back it up.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 9:22 AM
I have arthritis and suffer tremors but took the extra time to make the proper markings on my ballot. It took twice as long as my wife but; Oh Well!
thomasaur on November 20, 2008 at 9:27 AM
Apparently Al doesn’t resonate with a good majority of the Minnesotans who pay taxes.
So has anyone who spent a week in grades four through twelve. Same goes for anyone who has ever voted.
Read: Al promised people government freebies, and those who didn’t sacrifice their time, money, and hard work to get through school got in line.
Illegals and out-of-staters? So I guess Al knows about the election fraud that has been going on.
“ACORN registered everyone they could find (twice!) and they told them who to vote for… we know they didn’t mess this up!”
Straight-up insulting your voter base: a recipe for re-election straight out of John Murtha’s book.
Because everyone knows white people always quit the game once the race card has been played.
fiscallyconservative on November 20, 2008 at 9:29 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/17/frankens-position-looks-s_n_144449.html
This professor says the same thing–Franken will get more votes in the recount because Democrat voters are stupider than Republican voters.
juliesa on November 20, 2008 at 9:29 AM
I volunteered yesterday for the recount, and the Franken people were challenging ANYTHING that didn’t look like a colored in circle, never mind the intent was obvious on the ballot. In my opinion, from what I saw?…. The fix is in! Coleman is in deep doo doo. I hope I’m wrong, but this smells so bad… I go back Saturday then next Tuesday.
MNDavenotPC on November 20, 2008 at 9:31 AM
First I was correcting you in your statement (which BTW happens most every time you make a post, you would think you would be more careful).
I said nothing about the legality, I said it was a strategy, by his legal team.
The second point it would be the third time I posted this information…It won’t convince you, you have never accepted facts given to you.
As I said, use your 5 minutes a Google, the answer is readily available.
It isn’t my job to educate you day after day.
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 9:31 AM
So why not question Franken’s vote? The law applies both ways.
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 9:32 AM
BTW, Coleman has so far challenged more ballots than Franken:
RECOUNT COLEMAN and Other Ballots Challenged By FRANKEN 106 0.02
RECOUNT FRANKEN and Other Ballots Challenged By COLEMAN 115 0.03
http://electionresults.sos.state.mn.us/20081104/SenateRecount.asp
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 9:31 AM
You didn’t correct anything.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 9:34 AM
Have you ever heard of Sarah Palin?
Johan Klaus on November 20, 2008 at 9:42 AM
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 8:39 AM
BTW, Coleman has so far challenged more ballots than Franken:
Think acorn, illegal aliens ect., ect., ect..
Johan Klaus on November 20, 2008 at 9:43 AM
Go to hell, Minnesota. Find yourself another country.
Percy_Peabody on November 20, 2008 at 9:49 AM
Interesting, Mr. Shipley. You demand that someone back up an allegation, but I have yet to see you provide the requested PROOF of your statement I ask for in my post at 8:50 AM. Please, back up, with PROOF your statement of “But so far, nothing improper or illegal has occurred”.
Goose… gander…
Yoop on November 20, 2008 at 9:54 AM
Franken’s team, the DNC, and plenty of illegal money from team O will ensure he wins, and Minnesota will get a six year look.
Vashta.Nerada on November 20, 2008 at 9:56 AM
Admittedly, I’ve never been to Minnesota. But it must be one helluva place! As if electing a former “professional” wrestler as your governor wasn’t bad enough, Minnesotans are now on the verge of sending AL FRANKEN to the United States Senate!! Say it again – AL FRANKEN, AL FRANKEN, AL FRANKEN. A United States Senator. The good people of Minnesota must be freaking idiots. They’re definitely the laughing stock of these somewhat united states. And to think all those elitists in the northeast mock and make fun of southerners. Hey, at least we’ve never sent anyone even closely resembling Al “Stuart Smalley” Franken to the United States Senate. Unbelievable.
uncalheels on November 20, 2008 at 10:03 AM
Someone needs to put him on a plane to Eveleth.
foxforce91 on November 20, 2008 at 10:08 AM
That’s because, as I had already stated, you don’t accept facts.
So you will never be corrected, because you would have to accept facts that show that you were wrong, and you won’t do that.
My comments are actually, if you haven’t caught on, for others to read about your foolish statements.
I know you won’t change your mind, no matter how many facts, no matter how many times your arguments are shown to be wrong…you won’t change. So I never argue to change your mind, that would be a waste of time.
I make my statements so your wrong headed comments do not go unchallenged…which is why most everyone responds to you. They are correcting your errors, not trying to change your mind; you are a liberal, facts only confuse you.
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 10:12 AM
Ed,
Where do you see Team Franken is “glad” their supporters are uneducated?
mycowardice on November 20, 2008 at 10:19 AM
That’s because, as I had already stated, you don’t accept facts.
You have not presented any facts in this thread that corrects anything that I’ve said. You said you posted a Franken memo elsewhere that does, but I googled for such a thing and didn’t find it. If you care to back up your allegations, please do. I’d be happy to look at it. But until then, you have not corrected anything I have said.
I make my statements so your wrong headed comments do not go unchallenged…which is why most everyone responds to you. They are correcting your errors, not trying to change your mind; you are a liberal, facts only confuse you.
But you haven’t really challenged me. And you certainly haven’t corrected me. Here’s the post that you claim “corrects” me. But all you do is say you posted elsewhere something that proves me wrong:
Still trying, I posted yesterday the legal proceedings from Franken that state otherwise.
The only thing accurate in your and others statements is that they don’t use the term “undervote” seeing as that is not a legal term, buy a definition of strategy.
The legal actions determine the strategy.
I don’t want to keep posting the same information, but if you wanted to know, you would take 5 minutes and see his legal teams strategy…it is to challenge every vote not for him, and to challenge every ballot that was for Obama, but not for him, and specifically a vote for Obama and no vote at all for senate.
It is laid out by his legal team…very documented, but you would rather blabber what you “feel” then what is fact…not unusual for you.
There’s NOTHING in that shows what I have said is incorrect. In fact, your approach strikes me as rather cowardly. If I am wrong, man up and show it. I’d be happy to engage in a fact-base debate with you.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 10:30 AM
Please, back up, with PROOF your statement of “But so far, nothing improper or illegal has occurred”.
You want me to prove a negative? Show me that something improper or illegal HAS occurred.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 10:31 AM
Have you ever heard of Sarah Palin?
Oh, her critics were pretty straight forward in say she was not bright enough to be a heartbeat away from the presidency. There was no insinuation.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 10:32 AM
I agree!
People should take a look at the real Al Franken.
DPierre on November 20, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Great post…
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 10:57 AM
There I shortened it for you…glad you said this, because you know I showed you yesterday, but still you argue.
Here let me help you respond…
right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 11:02 AM
http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/senate/?elr=KArks8c7PaP3E77K_3c%3A%3AD3aDhUxWoW_vcOiDUiD3aPc%3A_Yyc%3AaUoD%3AEaD_eyckcU
After looking at the partial recount returns, I don’t buy the undervote theory. The recounts thus far show both candidates LOSING votes, meaning that some votes counted by the machine were disallowed by hand counters. If there were substantial numbers of undervotes where voter intent was discerned by hand counters, and missed by the machines, both candidates would be GAINING votes.
So far, there are only two counties where either candidate made a double-digit gain: St.Louis County (Franken +24, with 42% counted), and Ramsey County (Franken +11, with 15% counted). Everywhere else, gains were limited to 1 or 2 votes, or candidates lost votes. If those trends continued, Franken could gain 130 votes in those two counties, not quite enough to overturn Coleman’s lead.
Interestingly enough, in Hennepin County, which Franken won by over 91,000 votes, partial (6%) recounts show both candidates losing votes, but with Coleman netting 3 votes. This early trend could be reversed, but it’s a good sign so far.
In two other large counties won by Coleman, Coleman netted 11 votes in Washington County (39% counted) and 4 votes in Anoka County (16% counted) but Franken netted 5 votes in Dakota County (17% counted), which Coleman won by over 17,000 votes.
It also seems like the Coleman team is on their toes–they have actually challenged more ballots (146) than the Franken team (123) so far.
Franken’s spin seems to be that he can gain votes by people too stupid to fill in an oval with a pencil, but unless they all live in St. Louis and Ramsey Counties, it probably won’t be enough.
Steve Z on November 20, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Huh? Challenging a ballot means you don’t agree with the way it’s being counted. A vote for Obama with no Senate vote is not being counted for Franken or Coleman. By challenging this, they are saying it should be counted differently, and clearly the Franken people aren’t demanding the “undervotes” go to Coleman, so that only leaves the idea that they should go to Franken.
The Monster on November 20, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Here we go. Illegal voter registration of prison convicts in Stillwater, some by ACORN, and others that are just “unexplainable” HAVE occured. Not only IMPROPER (your term), but ILLEGAL (your term). These are felonies that HAVE occurred.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fkDVm141FE
You can put down that shovel, or you can keep digging that hole you are in. There are more cases developing that destroy your argument, if you need them.
Yoop on November 20, 2008 at 11:05 AM
glad you said this, because you know I showed you yesterday, but still you argue.
I didn’t post anything about the recount yesterday, dude. If you really can show that Franken’s team thinks votes for Obama without a vote cast in the senate race should count for Franken you’d post it. But you can’t. Because they have never claimed that. You don’t refute what I’ve said because you can’t. And you’re not man enough to admit it.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 11:08 AM
Yoop on November 20, 2008 at 11:05 AM
We’re not talking about ACORN. We’re talking about the recount. And in regard to ACORN, yes there was voter-registration fraud by individuals looking to pad stats, but ACORN has themselves flagged suspicious forms for the state to review and there’s been no evidence shown that there was an organized or unorganized attempt by ACORN to carry out voter fraud.
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 11:11 AM
Just for fun, it would be neat to poll the Senate (secret ballot-no card check) as to whether they want Coleman or Franken.
I’d think it would go about 79/20 against Franken. If Senators take any pride in their status, they wouldn’t want Franken damaging the brand, so to speak.
Doug on November 20, 2008 at 11:13 AM
You’re joking, right?
sheesh on November 20, 2008 at 11:15 AM
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