Minnesota Recount: Team Franken glad their supporters are uneducated?

posted at 7:53 am on November 20, 2008 by Ed Morrissey

This has to be a first.  In explaining why he believes Al Franken will prevail in the recount, a lawyer volunteering for Team Franken says that Franken voters are less educated and therefore more ignorant about how to fill in a bubble on a ballot.  No, I’m not kidding:

Even the observers and lawyers have been instructed by their respective campaigns to not talk to the media. But Minneapolis lawyer Bill Starr, who is volunteering for the Franken campaign, was willing to say a few words. He said he thinks Franken will prevail. His hunch is based on a theory he has.

“People who voted for Coleman are more likely to have taken the SAT in their lifetime,” he said. “They’ve filled in circles. Franken voters are probably not college-educated. They’re new voters and immigrants. They’ve been brought in by groups like ACORN, from the inner cities. They’re more likely to make mistakes. I’ve bounced this off of minority people, and they agree with me.”

The “minority people” agree with him?  Which “minority people” would that be?  And what exactly did Starr mean by immigrants?  Is he admitting that Franken and ACORN enticed non-citizens to vote?

Perhaps Starr might now understand why Franken’s team wants people to stop talking to the press.

For the record, of course, Minnesotans do not get their first exposure to optical-scan systems with the SAT.  Students use Scantron-like forms throughout their education, just as they do everywhere.  And even recently naturalized citizens and new voters can usually manage to grasp the concept of filling in a bubble.

But does Team Franken?  They challenged this ballot yesterday as unclear on voter intent:

Apparently, the challenge relies on the fact that there is both an X and a “squiggle” in the bubble.  Franken’s team must be arguing that the voter intended to cancel his/her vote for Coleman and leave the Senate race without a vote.  Would that not undermine completely the idea of “undervotes” that Franken has been pushing for the last two weeks?  Besides, if this voter wanted to “cancel” the vote, he or she would have just gotten a fresh ballot, which is an option clearly stated in the polling booths.

This is a desperation move, and Minnesotans should take a good look at the real Al Franken.

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Last presidential election, my Florida county used touch screens. This time, we had scantrons. I took f-o-r-e-v-e-r trying to make my chosen bubbles perfect. It was more stressful than the SATs, but less so than the ACTs. Gave me a bit of High School deja vu. Quite unpleasant.

Mrs. Happy Housewife on November 20, 2008 at 11:18 AM

Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 11:08 AM

Okay stupid, let me state it one more time, at least others will get it…you won’t.

Because they have never claimed that

I agreed with you, read my posts, the attorneys never “said” that.
But their filings show the intent, the strategy. There is no legal statement “we are going after undervotes” (I have said this before). They filed each of the many recount procedures to force a recount…why? To find more votes for Coleman? Don’t be coy…

“We had one of our organizers visit a woman at a nursing home, where she lives, and she told us that her signature was indeed different than what was on file with the country,” Elias said. “And that was because she had suffered a stroke.”

“So despite her efforts to get a ballot on time, consider the candidates, submit that ballot on time, her ballot didn’t count, because there was a mismatch in the signature that was on file with the county,” Elias continued. “There are stories like this throughout Minnesota.”

The Franken campaign says it has more examples of valid absentee ballots being rejected, but it did not share them.

In hopes of tracking down more information about rejected absentee ballots, the campaign filed a lawsuit in Ramsey County District Court seeking the names of everyone whose absentee ballots were rejected.

Elias said if he wins in Ramsey County, he expects every other Minnesota county would also be compelled to provide the names of those whose absentee ballots were rejected.

“This is not a lawsuit about putting ballots in the count or not in the count. This is about giving us access to the data that will allow us to determine whether or not there are lawful ballots,” said Elias, “[from] honest, hard-working men and women who did everything right. They played by the rules, they went to the Secretary of State’s Web site. They read how you cast an absentee ballot and they did all of those things, and yet their ballots weren’t counted.”

The Franken campaign says rejected absentee ballots need to be reconsidered in the recount, even though Secretary of State Mark Ritchie has said disqualified absentee ballots would not be part of the recount.

At a Wednesday news conference, Ritchie made it clear that bringing back rejected ballots can be done only through a legal challenge, called a contested election.

“The recount is done on ballots that have been accepted,” Ritchie said. “There could be a contest. A citizen could go to court and say, ‘My ballot wasn’t included,’ and ask a judge to make a ruling on that decision. But again it’s not in our area, it’s in the contest area.”

Still the Franken campaign said it will ask the State Canvassing board to include a review of rejected absentee ballots.

BTW, the “stoke” story was a false allegation, proved to be a trumped up lie.

“Beltrami County does not have one ballot that was rejected because signatures didn’t match and the Franken campaign was clearly told that,” County Auditor-Treasurer Kay Mack said. “I don’t know where they are getting that from.”

That after about 45 seconds of searching, where you “searched” and couldn’t find anything.
Here is your response, to save you time:

This proves nothing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah…
Tom_Shipley on (fill in date and time)

A man with any intellect would throw up the white flag and not post anymore on this subject…buy you won’t accept any facts, even from Franken and his attorney’s, so you will say…”You have proved nothing, blah, blah, blah…)

right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 11:30 AM

just as I suspected, you can’t prove that Franken wants to or will pursue ballots that have a vote for Obama but none in the senate race to count for Franken.

Your claim is that because his legal team is suing to have rejected absentee ballots considered (or re-looked at) as part of the recount it means Franken wants ballots cast for Obama with no mark in the Senate section to count for Franken.

That’s just ridiculous. To paraphrase you, any person with any intellect will see you’re full of it. You’re guessing as to what their future actions will be. To claim this somehow “corrects” me is a joke. So, thanks for actually providing the “proof” you draw your conclusions from. It exposes yourself as a first-class BS peddler.

We’ll deal with reality here. Until Team Franken says he wants ballots cast for Obama, but with no vote cast in the senate race to count for Franken, then Team Franken doesn’t want those ballots cast for Franken.

Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 11:54 AM

Not being from Minnesota I don’t understand how this race could have been close to begin with. I know Jesse Ventura was elected Governor, but he still only got 38% of the vote.

Tommy_G on November 20, 2008 at 8:38 AM

We are ornery cusses up here on the tundra. The Independence Party (IP) “cudda bean a contenda” if Ventura was more patriot and less narcissist.
The IP has played spoiler up here for several election cycles now. The pundit’s “purple fantasy” about Minny has less to do with the Vikings going to the Super Bowl and more with the IP’s ability to thwart the DFL in the governor’s race the last two elections.
Hopefully they (the IP) net the hat-trick and keep Franken out of the Senate.
My evil fantasy has a Florida style recount going to Norm by about 50 votes, at which point Franken runs naked and shrieking onto a ice floe in Lake Minnetonka, never to be seen again…

Bruno Strozek on November 20, 2008 at 12:08 PM

Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 11:54 AM

just curious tommyboy… is this you?

About me:
shipleyt. Once a hippie musician, I turned television producer after the gold rush. As a musician and part of the musical group Brewer and Shipley we had a hit with the song “One Toke Over the Line.” Michael and I still tour on occasion and I love seeing old fans, old friends, and old places. The last time I looked The Little Bear was still a mountain bar in Evergreen, CO. Amazing! As a television producer I have a production company, Tarkio Communications, which has done projects for industry, commercial television, and PBS. Currently I am also the videographer for Missouri University of Science and Technology. I have a few of my videos here on MySpace TV. Check out the video below “Once We Were Hippies,” where my oldest son Marc comments on hippies, music festivals, and his brother Matt’s drumming.
Who I’d like to meet:
Fidel

grouped with this past post from HA…

I’m not saying everyone doesn’t have a day job or that anyone is forced to be a reporter. I’m saying that reporters have MUCH tougher and tighter standards than blogs. They work harder than bloggers. And the produce better work than bloggers. (speaking in general terms here).

Blogs rely and that higher quality of work to fuel their opininated posts. Bloggers also attack many journalists’ (whom them rely on) credibility WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE aside from their interpretation of what they’ve written. They often attack them for things they themselves (the bloggers) do on a regular basis.

Blogs have their purpose (which include, among the good ones, being a media watchdog). I’m not anti-blog. But make no mistake, tranditional news reporters work on a higher plane.

Tom_Shipley on May 28, 2008 at 4:45 PM

it sure sounds like you

brianpierre on November 20, 2008 at 12:24 PM

No, I am not the Tom Shipley from Brewer and Shipley.

Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 12:29 PM

Franken’s “Useful Idiots……”

DL13 on November 20, 2008 at 12:32 PM

This comparison of liberal behavior to that of small children sure fits the Franken crowd.

http://www.conservativewomenunited.blogspot.com/

Done That on November 20, 2008 at 12:43 PM

“Democratic-Farmer-Labor”? What the h*** does that mean?

Andrew D on November 20, 2008 at 12:56 PM

Let me see, unless Franken specifically says what his strategy is, unless he reveals to the world what his actual plans are…then they cannot be questioned.
Even when his legal team states the purpose is to garner more votes…oh wait, I know, they want more votes for Coleman?
Let’s face reality here:
When a defense attorney makes a motion,it is to defend, not help the other side.
The argument that Franken is doing this to help Coleman is ridiculous, that his lawsuit is to help Coleman to win the election, is beyond foolish, hence no longer can I just use the word “fool” do describe you, maybe a master fool, or maybe that you own a 9th degree fool belt…maybe he is doing it for the election to be “honest”…yeah, that’s it, Franken is the only true American.
Tom_Shipley thinks the attorneys did this because they are “Americans” and want an accurate count…

right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 1:09 PM

This proves it. Dems are dumb, GOPers are smart.

Skipper50 on November 20, 2008 at 1:14 PM

Just because anyone that voted for Franken is a moron, it doesn’t me that they are ignorant. Oh well, forget that. My bad.

DuctTapeMyBrain on November 20, 2008 at 1:20 PM

CNN had video of this putz up last night with the caption “Al Franken – (D) Minn”…

Uh, not just YET, guys…

mojo on November 20, 2008 at 1:22 PM

“Democratic-Farmer-Labor”? What the h*** does that mean?

Andrew D on November 20, 2008 at 12:56 PM

I’m not real sure, but I think this goes back to the days of FDR. The dems here in MN wanted to look and feel all inclusive and thought they could entice the democrats, the farmers, and the laborers into being one happy party.

This is now an outdated label as there aren’t that many farmers left and you know where the laborers have gone, overseas.

cjs1943 on November 20, 2008 at 1:26 PM

Franken’s legal team believes that if discarded absentee ballots are reexamined there will be some that in fact should not have been discarded. And they believe of those, there will be more for Franken than Coleman. That’s why they are challenging the Sec. of State’s decision. So no, they are not doing this to help Coleman. And I never argued that. They are making the challenge because they think there are some legal ballots that should not have been rejected, and of them, they feel more would go to Franken.

They aren’t asking for improper ballots to be counted. They aren’t asking for ballots with no vote cast to be counted. They aren’t asking for only ballots cast for Franken to be counted. They are just asking for a review of rejected absentee ballots to see if there are in fact some that should have been legally counted.

And, again, none of this back ups this statement of yours:

No one at team Franken has suggested that ballots cast for Obama without a vote cast in the senate race should count for Franken.

Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 8:59 AM

You may be right on this one. He’s alleged a list of reasons for his losing but this one technically may not be one of them.

LastRick on November 20, 2008 at 9:12 AM

Well, his attorney say different…

right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 9:14 AM

His attorneys have never said differently. There actions have not implied they think differently. You are just plain wrong.

Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 1:27 PM

“Democratic-Farmer-Labor”? What the h*** does that mean?

Andrew D on November 20, 2008 at 12:56 PM

It’s a mangy mutt of liberal weanies (D), organic tofu growers (F) & hard-drinkin’ blue collar guys/gals (L).

Unlikely, I know, but the spoils system in St. Paul assures everyone gets a taste, so it works, especially at the state legislature.

Plus, lots of Minnesota Republicans are, well, there’s no way to put this delicately, real assholes.

Sorry.

(not Michelle Bachmann, though.)

Bruno Strozek on November 20, 2008 at 1:34 PM

Even if some recount results come in over the next few days that show Coleman losing his lead, that doesn’t necessarily mean that Franken wins. There are several fairly populous counties where Coleman leads that won’t start re-counting until later:

Sherburne: Coleman 22,886
Franken 13,399 Recount starts 11/25

Wright: Coleman 32,989
Franken 18,663 Recount starts 12/3

Scott: Coleman 33,827
Franken 20,687 Recount starts 12/3

In these three counties, Coleman leads by 18.9% out of 142,451 votes, and there aren’t any late-counting counties that heavily favor Franken–most of the rest are about even, or small Coleman-favoring counties. If Coleman still leads after Hennepin, St. Louis, and Ramsey counties (total Franken lead of 167,160 votes) are recounted, he will probably win.

If the machine missed valid votes, the recount would tend to favor Coleman here, so we won’t know the winner until at least December 3.

Steve Z on November 20, 2008 at 1:39 PM

Well by their interpretation, any mismarked ballot should be for Franken, or not for Coleman…look at the example.
Clearly marked for Coleman, but Franken’s attorney are contesting it.
I think that alone proves that they are looking only to gain votes, not to be fair.
Argument is closed…Tom_Shipley by his own admission has lost…his admission,

They aren’t asking for improper ballots to be counted. They aren’t asking for ballots with no vote cast to be counted. They aren’t asking for only ballots cast for Franken to be counted. They are just asking for a review of rejected absentee ballots to see if there are in fact some that should have been legally counted.

The ballot being contested shows they are asking for improper to be counted.
The woman who supposedly had a “stroke” they asked for her ballot to be cast.
They are asking for all ballots to be counted and analyzed.
So three out of your four premises are wrong…therefore you are wrong.
The fourth I feel is true, by the desires and actions of the attorneys.
So 4 out of 4 for me you are wrong
3 out of 4 by facts, supported by links on this post shows you were wrong.
You, by any count or recount are a loser.
Post closed…
(I once again educated poor Tom…but he won’t admit it…)

right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 2:26 PM

You, by any count or recount are a loser.
Post closed…

Mission accomplished, eh?

Let’s sort this out for you. Yes, in the recount, they will question votes for Coleman if they think there’s a doubt in the voter’s intent. Coleman’s people are doing the same. they’ve in fact questioned more votes than Franken’s team.

The ballot being contested shows they are asking for improper to be counted.

It does not show they are asking for an improper ballot to be counted. It shows that they are questioning the voter’s intent. I’ll point you to your own post from earlier in this thread:

No, what I said was…if only one bubble looked like this, and the rest was all but perfect, that would show that this was an aberration. So you put it aside, and if it does mean something later, then you re-analyze it. Meanwhile you move on and count the obvious. Don’t take the time to analyze something that may not mean anything, just set it aside.
So when you get done, you have 20 weird ballots, the vote is decided, because chances are these 20 won’t have any bearing, and you have proved that you attempted to honestly count every ballot.

Relax…if you were losing you would do the same.

right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 9:03 AM

they are trying to take only five seconds to look at each ballot. As you point out, this one may not be obvious (there is an X with lines “squiggled” over it). Both sides in this recount are only going to question ballots that would potentially favor them. Coleman is not going to question a ballot that has a vote cast for him. And when Coleman’s team questions a ballot, they aren’t asking for an improper ballot to be cast, they are just asking the judges to take a closer look at it. Same goes for Team Franken.

And in terms of the absentee ballots, what I said absolutely applies:

They aren’t asking for improper ballots to be counted. They aren’t asking for ballots with no vote cast to be counted. They aren’t asking for only ballots cast for Franken to be counted. They are just asking for a review of rejected absentee ballots to see if there are in fact some that should have been legally counted.

And AGAIN, read the following. You have shown zero proof to back up your claim and are just plain wrong:

No one at team Franken has suggested that ballots cast for Obama without a vote cast in the senate race should count for Franken.

Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 8:59 AM

You may be right on this one. He’s alleged a list of reasons for his losing but this one technically may not be one of them.

LastRick on November 20, 2008 at 9:12 AM

Well, his attorney say different…

right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 9:14 AM

But, I like you’re schoolyard tactic of declaring victory, grabbing the ball and going home. It’s the last refuge of a blogger who can’t win an argument on merit.

Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 3:00 PM

It’s interesting that:

1. Democrats have perpetrated more election fraud throughout history,

2. Every recount begins with a Democrat

3. Every recount magically finds more votes for the Democrat candidate

4. The reason Democrats always give is not fraud on the part of Republicans, but the stupidity on the part of their supporters

Nice trend.

Texas Rainmaker on November 20, 2008 at 3:05 PM

Meanwhile, the recount will go on and the man with the most votes will win.

Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 8:15 AM

That’s a fundamental problem with the way Democrats want to handle elections.

Only legal votes should be counted.

malclave on November 20, 2008 at 3:26 PM

Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 3:00 PM

As I said, facts won’t deter you from your fantasy world…facts just get in the way.
I showed you the lawsuit that was brought against the phony allegation of a “stroke”, I showed you the quotes from the attorneys…it was the democrat who brought the lawsuit, not the other way around.
As I stated, facts just get in the way with you…you are a hopeless liberal, you are in the party where you belong.

right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 4:41 PM

And AGAIN, read the following. You have shown zero proof to back up your claim and are just plain wrong:
Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 3:00 PM

The Franken campaign says rejected absentee ballots need to be reconsidered in the recount, even though Secretary of State Mark Ritchie has said disqualified absentee ballots would not be part of the recount.

Next time quote the pertinent statements, you know the ones that embarrass you with facts…
How much more plain can it be, this is from his own attorneys and campaign.
Tom_Shipley, it can’t get any plainer…I provided you with the proof in a couple of posts.
Here let me quote it again:

The Franken campaign says rejected absentee ballots need to be reconsidered in the recount, even though Secretary of State Mark Ritchie has said disqualified absentee ballots would not be part of the recount.

Get it? Even rejected, where the Secretary of State (a democrat and partial to Franken) disqualified them…they are disqualified.
Man you are dense…

right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 4:50 PM

Last presidential election, my Florida county used touch screens. This time, we had scantrons. I took f-o-r-e-v-e-r trying to make my chosen bubbles perfect. It was more stressful than the SATs, but less so than the ACTs. Gave me a bit of High School deja vu. Quite unpleasant.

Mrs. Happy Housewife on November 20, 2008 at 11:18 AM

I’m in LA county. We used scantrons, but they provide “punch pens” (I don’t know what they’re really called) — pen-like devices that make a perfect round disk when you push down on them. I double-checked my ballot before casting it — worked like a charm.

Having proctored hundreds of exams, I’m amazed that any place would still resort to pencils or not provide these magic “pens.” Too many chances for problems without them.

Y-not on November 20, 2008 at 5:13 PM

As I said, facts won’t deter you from your fantasy world…facts just get in the way.
I showed you the lawsuit that was brought against the phony allegation of a “stroke”, I showed you the quotes from the attorneys…it was the democrat who brought the lawsuit, not the other way around.

Sure, you put these out there, but none of these “facts” show/prove/give merit to your claim that Team Franken wants ballots with votes cast for Obama with no vote cast in the Senate race to count for Franken.

The fact that Team Obama wants to re-look at rejected absentee ballots does not show this. It just doesn’t. You are wrong.

Team Franken wants the ballots that the Sec. State rejected to be re-looked at to make sure he was not mistaken in rejecting some of them. In such a close race in which every vote counts, why not double checks to make sure every eligible vote gets counted.

Again, no one is trying to get improper ballots counted… just double check the ones that were deemed improper to make sure some legal ones were improperly rejected.

Thems the facts and, again, you are just plain wrong.

Tom_Shipley on November 20, 2008 at 5:14 PM

Liberal + Facts = Hopelessness
Liberal – Hopelessness = Facts
*
Observed fact:
When faced with facts, liberals stick head up ass
*
Dichotomy:
Liberals often don’t see facts…therefore head is not up ass as often as it should.
*
Result:
Liberals appear to be listening, when they should have head up ass.
*
Proof:
Look at past posts by resident liberal…when presented facts (see observed facts above)
*
Amazing fact:
They don’t recognize it…they actually don’t see what is before their eyes…therefore ocular must be blocked by something…maybe what was up their ass?

right2bright on November 20, 2008 at 8:57 PM

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