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German outreach to Muslims backfires

posted at 3:17 pm on November 19, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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An attempt by German Academia to provide outreach to moderate Muslims may have significantly backfired, with its leading light becoming an apostate.  Muhammed Sven Kalish has written a paper asserting that the prophet Mohammed never existed at all, and that Islam started as a Christian heresy.  Needless to say, the same people who threatened death on editorial cartoonists merely for depicting Mohammed are not pleased:

Muhammad Sven Kalisch, a Muslim convert and Germany’s first professor of Islamic theology, fasts during the Muslim holy month, doesn’t like to shake hands with Muslim women and has spent years studying Islamic scripture. Islam, he says, guides his life.

So it came as something of a surprise when Prof. Kalisch announced the fruit of his theological research. His conclusion: The Prophet Muhammad probably never existed.

Muslims, not surprisingly, are outraged. Even Danish cartoonists who triggered global protests a couple of years ago didn’t portray the Prophet as fictional. German police, worried about a violent backlash, told the professor to move his religious-studies center to more-secure premises.

“We had no idea he would have ideas like this,” says Thomas Bauer, a fellow academic at Münster University who sat on a committee that appointed Prof. Kalisch. “I’m a more orthodox Muslim than he is, and I’m not a Muslim.”

Of course, Christians and Jews have dealt with critical research for many years on the historical accuracy of their scriptures.  Claims that Jesus, Moses, and David didn’t exist have been made, debunked, and made yet again so often that they no longer make news any more.  Christians and Jews express annoyance at times with these claims, but they don’t react to them with violence and rage.

Neither should Muslims, Kalisch says, and the reluctance to even offer such a hypothetical amounts to bigotry:

Most Western scientists turn down such an hypotheses out of respect for Islam or because they are afraid of the reactions of their Muslim friends or because they think it is speculative nonsense.

The word “respect” sounds wonderful but it is completely inappropriate here because one really refers to the opposite. Whoever thinks that Muslims can’t deal with facts puts Muslims on the same level as small children who can’t think and decide for themselves and whose illusions of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny one doesn’t want to destroy.

Whoever really bases his thoughts on the equality of all human beings must expect the same intellectual performance. Really treating Muslims with respect would imply that they are strong enough to deal with their religion on the basis of our modern level of knowledge. “Islamophobes” think we Muslims are barbarians, the “kind-hearted” take us for “noble savages”… The result is the same: Muslims are seen as different from the rest of the world — they either belong in a “petting zoo” or in cages for wild animals, but by all means they belong in a zoo.

I agree with Kalisch’s response, but I think he misplaces the blame.  Western intellectuals have this reaction because of the massive rage that comes not just from a few nutcases but millions of Muslims when the Koran or the Hadiths receive any sort of critical scrutiny at all.  The Prophet Cartoon outrage was particularly instructive, as the resultant demonstrations had millions of participants worldwide calling for death to the editorial cartoonists — and they just drew pictures of Mohammed.  It’s that predictable rage that makes Western academics place Muslims in general in the category of ill-tempered children.

However, I’d take his hypothesis with a large, Lot’s wife-sized grain of salt.  Modern academics show little respect to the value of oral traditions in these revisionist theories.  It’s certainly possible that Mohammed never existed, but it strikes me as extremely unlikely.  Just because his story didn’t get written in a traditional paper medium during his life doesn’t make him a fable.  It could certainly impact the veracity of his quotes and the stories told in the Koran, but his existence?  Especially given the disputes over his succession that broke out after his death — all of which have fairly clear records and resulted in the Sunni-Shi’ite split within a generation or two — I’d call Kalisch’s theory a long shot.

Nevertheless, it’s precisely this kind of critical thinking that Islam requires to bring it into modernity and toleration.  Unfortunately, it’s also this kind of critical thinking that provokes the most reactionary behavior, which them shuts down critical thinking.  This will be a long process indeed, one I’m certain Germany’s academics had no intention of starting with such a controversial launch.


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Comment pages: 1 2

When someone sticks a statue of Muhammed into a jar of urine and puts it up in a museum, call me.

29Victor on November 19, 2008 at 3:22 PM

Doh!

pseudonominus on November 19, 2008 at 3:22 PM

Once again the differenc eis apparent between TRUE and FALSE

Jesus sent His son to die for us—Allah wants us to send our sons to die for him

BIG difference

It is , by nature and its scripture, a violent religion

John The Baptist on November 19, 2008 at 3:22 PM

You cannot, I repeat, you cannot reason with savages.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:23 PM

Most Klingons know that Kahless is a fictional character. But at least Klingons have honor!

stonemeister on November 19, 2008 at 3:23 PM

would this be news if some Lesbian “artist” had created a Jesus statue that shows him beating off? NO it would not and the New York Times would rave about the exhibition (no pun intended) and give away tickets…..

SDarchitect on November 19, 2008 at 3:24 PM

Once again the differenc eis apparent between TRUE and FALSE

Jesus sent His son to die for us—Allah wants us to send our sons to die for him

BIG difference

It is , by nature and its scripture, a violent religion

Really? How do you know that ‘Jesus’ sent his son to die for us? The same oral tradition, which has seemingly been struck down by this German professor and falls inline with your thinking.

Grow up.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:25 PM

Meanwhile, this is what Muslims think about Jerusalem, the Jewish Temples, and Israel in general (from WND):

Tamimi is considered the second most important Palestinian cleric after Muhammad Hussein, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

“Israel started since 1967 making archeological digs to show Jewish signs to prove the relationship between Judaism and the city and they found nothing. There is no Jewish connection to Israel before the Jews invaded in the 1880s,” said Tamimi.

“About these so-called two Temples, they never existed, certainly not at the [Temple Mount],” Tamimi said during a sit-down interview in his eastern Jerusalem office.

At the same time, Jerusalem is never mentioned in the Koran, but Muslims lay claim to it, anyway.

Eventually, thinking people will understand that muslims, as a group, don’t engage in thinking.

progressoverpeace on November 19, 2008 at 3:25 PM

Really? How do you know that ‘Jesus’ sent his son to die for us? The same oral tradition, which has seemingly been struck down by this German professor and falls inline with your thinking.

Grow up.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:25 PM

It’s called faith.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:28 PM

Really? How do you know that ‘Jesus’ sent his son to die for us? The same oral tradition, which has seemingly been struck down by this German professor and falls inline with your thinking.

Grow up.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:25 PM
It’s called faith.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:28 PM

Oh, btw, Jesus is the one that died for our son’s. He didn’t send himself.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:31 PM

Oh, btw, Jesus is the one that died for our son’s. He didn’t send himself.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:31 PM

Doh. Gotta lay off the wine so early. Son’s=sins.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:31 PM

It’s called faith.

How is that an argument? If I were to say I have ‘faith’ that I can defy the law of gravity, you’d ask me substantiate or call me a crack-pot. Why is ‘faith’ an acceptable method by which to avoid debate?

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:31 PM

Jesus sent His son to die for us—Allah wants us to send our sons to die for him

Wait a minute. Jesus was Himself the Son sent to die for us. It was God the Father who sent Him.

Bigfoot on November 19, 2008 at 3:33 PM

Jesus’ sent his son to die for us?

God sent his son JESUS to save us.

driver on November 19, 2008 at 3:34 PM

…and suddenly the topic is changed from the article and turned into a debate on Christianity.

Nice.

29Victor on November 19, 2008 at 3:34 PM

The result is the same: Muslims are seen as different from the rest of the world — they either belong in a “petting zoo” or in cages for wild animals, but by all means they belong in a zoo.

Never were truer words spoken. That is exactly where they belong, actually an armed zoo is more like it. Islam is not a religion. It is a totalitarian political movement wearing a religious burka.

They are the Borg and they need to be treated as such until they have a Reformation. A Reformation I would add that is not possible by Islamic teachings.

patrick neid on November 19, 2008 at 3:34 PM

It’s a religion/society that hasn’t gone through a reformation yet.

There are cities throughout Europe where 2000 protestants or 5000 catholics were murdered by their fellow Christians during various protestant/orthodox wars. It took Christianity hundreds of years to be alright with dissent and differing opinions.

The problem is that with the technology and weapons available today, we can’t afford to let them catch up on their own. It’s no longer thousands of lives that are at risk but potentially billions.

The question is how do you get a culture to skip over that painful kill everyone that disagrees with you growth period in order to get to the we can disagree with murdering each other point?

Have there been any cultural/religious reformations in history that didn’t involve slaughtering each other?

JadeNYU on November 19, 2008 at 3:35 PM

Argh! “we can disagree WITHOUT murdering each other”

JadeNYU on November 19, 2008 at 3:35 PM

How is that an argument? If I were to say I have ‘faith’ that I can defy the law of gravity, you’d ask me substantiate or call me a crack-pot. Why is ‘faith’ an acceptable method by which to avoid debate?

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:31 PM

If you don’t believe, you wouldn’t understand.

Do you believe your mother loves you? Can you PROVE it or do you just have faith that she does? Love is not something that is substantial, but many people live and die knowing someone “loved” them during their lives, but they would never be able to PROVE it.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM

Muhammad’s messenger was Satan!

I guess Buckley didn’t finish his work when he started out to separate the kooks from the conservatives. More of this guys. Please. Maybe we can lose another couple of elections.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM

Of course Mahomet existed. He’s the one who found the meteorite that Muslims pray in the direction of. The notion that Mahomet did not exist is just stupid.

That said, it’s richly, hilariously, satisfying in a “good for the gander” sort of way.

indythinker on November 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM

My question is what German passing as intelligent, perverts to Islam in the first place?

I would think Mohammed lived and did all he was claimed to have. The Mohammedans would not make up such vile stories of their founders actions in life if he was made up.

Islam is awesome!

BL@KBIRD on November 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM

…and suddenly the topic is changed from the article and turned into a debate on Christianity.

Nice.

29Victor on November 19, 2008 at 3:34 PM

Nah.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM

On a recent “Nova” program from CBS, they claimed the Israelites were not Israelite, and they invented God after stumbling through a region called “Yahoo.” (Hence “YHWH”). I shit you not.

indythinker on November 19, 2008 at 3:37 PM

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM

You didn’t even bother to read the post or watch the video, but yet YOU know better.

abinitioadinfinitum on November 19, 2008 at 3:38 PM

You cannot, I repeat, you cannot reason with savages.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:23 PM

My collie says:

Although savages everywhere are not happy with your implication that they are somehow synonymous with Muslims, they have decided that to express their outrage would only serve to prove your point.

Hmmm. Perhaps we should explore other ways in which savages just might be superior to jihadists.

CyberCipher on November 19, 2008 at 3:39 PM

Most Western scientists turn down such an hypotheses out of respect for Islam or because they are afraid of the reactions of their Muslim friends …

With friends like that, who needs terrorists?

Tony737 on November 19, 2008 at 3:41 PM

How is that an argument? If I were to say I have ‘faith’ that I can defy the law of gravity, you’d ask me substantiate or call me a crack-pot. Why is ‘faith’ an acceptable method by which to avoid debate?

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:31 PM
If you don’t believe, you wouldn’t understand.

Do you believe your mother loves you? Can you PROVE it or do you just have faith that she does? Love is not something that is substantial, but many people live and die knowing someone “loved” them during their lives, but they would never be able to PROVE it.

Are you kidding me? My mother can demonstrate love if she so chooses. For instance, a drunken father can say he loves his kids as he beats them, but you can reasonably argue that he doesn’t. A father or mother that cares for his/her children, dotes over them, and acts in a manner we generally agree to be a good parent can be said to love that child. I’ll grant you that it isn’t as elegant as 1+1=2, but it certainly is easier to defend than your crap about “if you don’t believe”.

I, for the record, am a catholic turned athiest, and my lack of faith stems from a reasonable examination of the facts surrounding religion (i.e. there are none to adequately support it in my opinion). You on the other hand, “believe”.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:41 PM

How is that an argument? If I were to say I have ‘faith’ that I can defy the law of gravity, you’d ask me substantiate or call me a crack-pot. Why is ‘faith’ an acceptable method by which to avoid debate?

Since we are discussing a bunch of camel helders stuck in the 12th century and with a serious case of situational morality or don’t do to us as we do to you.

El Coqui on November 19, 2008 at 3:41 PM

JadeNYU on November 19, 2008 at 3:35 PM

Reforming a political ideology that holds a death sentence for apostasy (and still routinely practices it) and demands the power of state is pretty difficult stuff.

Just for further info, there is also a declared death sentence in islam for anyone who goes off the lunar calendar and adds any intercalaries. islam is determined to be primitive, and there is not much that can be done about that.

progressoverpeace on November 19, 2008 at 3:41 PM

When someone sticks a statue of Muhammed into a jar of urine and puts it up in a museum, call me.

29Victor on November 19, 2008 at 3:22 PM

++3

Dritanian on November 19, 2008 at 3:42 PM

The west needs to genuflect a bit more deeply and try really, really hard not to offend the gentle sensibilities of our Muslim friends or simply say sod off. I vote for saying sod off but appreciate that the neighborhood censorship bureau might have a problem with such an offense.

moxie_neanderthal on November 19, 2008 at 3:42 PM

I think he should have presented his theory in the form of a cartoon…they are already used to that

Dude’s got guts…or a really twisted sense of humor.

AmericanUnderground on November 19, 2008 at 3:42 PM

Not knowing the claims of the Koran as to when the various stories and sayings were recorded in written form I cannot say if this professor is on to something or not concerning Mohammad, however, Christianity has documentation that places its stories and sayings (New Testament) within 20-35 years of Jesus’ death. I am referring the gospels here. I believe that some of the epistles of Paul and some of the other apostles are recorded within a few years of Jesus’ death. So, I don’t think it is the claim that the oral tradition is faulty works in this case. Clearly, the early Christians believed Jesus died for the sins of believers and that the Father sent him to do so.

Mich_93 on November 19, 2008 at 3:43 PM

Islam is a death cult and it’s adherents need to be confined to the Middle East.

DerKrieger on November 19, 2008 at 3:43 PM

You cannot, I repeat, you cannot reason with savages.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:23 PM
My collie says:

Although savages everywhere are not happy with your implication that they are somehow synonymous with Muslims, they have decided that to express their outrage would only serve to prove your point.
Hmmm. Perhaps we should explore other ways in which savages just might be superior to jihadists.

CyberCipher on November 19, 2008 at 3:39 PM

My domestic shorthair feline says:

My staff did not mean to insult said savages. As a feline, I am aware that some canines, namely collies, are labeled as savages. Did not mean to place said collie in the same grouping as jihadists.
BTW, been to Koreatown lately?

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:43 PM

…and suddenly the topic is changed from the article and turned into a debate on Christianity.

Nice

Yep, good ol’ threadjack extrodinaire.

mjk on November 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM

Islam is a death cult and it’s adherents need to be confined to the Middle East.

DerKrieger on November 19, 2008 at 3:43 PM

Too bad they don’t believe in comets and wear black nikes….

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM

Good. This will give Islamic Rage Boy something to do.

Cicero43 on November 19, 2008 at 3:45 PM

Well, ya never know, maybe Mo DIDN’T exist. That seems kinda silly though, considering he lived in the 600s. Now if we were debated whether or not Gilgamesh lived or was a myth, I could understand.

If we have records of Alexander the Great living about nine hundred years BEFORE Mo, then surely they have … um, well, then again, we are comparing cultures too, so maybe this guy has a point.

Tony737 on November 19, 2008 at 3:46 PM

You on the other hand, “believe”.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:41 PM

GOD was here FIRST, YOU BELIEVE that there is no God.

abinitioadinfinitum on November 19, 2008 at 3:46 PM

Since we are discussing a bunch of camel helders stuck in the 12th century and with a serious case of situational morality or don’t do to us as we do to you.

I’m not even certain what the second part of that sentence is supposed to mean. As far as your camel “helders” comment is concerned, I’d go so far as to say I ‘believe’ that you may be related to the woman who ripped the mic from McCain’s hands in order to assert that Obama is a muslim (as if being a muslim in and of itself was meant to be derisive).

If you think every Christian is in the 21st Century vis-a-vis every Muslim stuck in the 12th, I’d suggest you take a look at some of the Christian’s strewn throughout the world, who you may be shocked to discover, aren’t quite hip with the .com lifestyle.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM

GOD was here FIRST, YOU BELIEVE that there is no God.

abinitioadinfinitum on November 19, 2008 at 3:46 PM

Ok…that’s your opinion. Pove it.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:48 PM

I, for the record, am a catholic turned athiest, and my lack of faith stems from a reasonable examination of the facts surrounding religion (i.e. there are none to adequately support it in my opinion). You on the other hand, “believe”.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:41 PM

So, goody for you. And yet, we both still breathe the same air. I don’t care if you are purple and have green horns, just don’t insult other’s belief just because you decided to leave.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:48 PM

If you think every Christian is in the 21st Century vis-a-vis every Muslim stuck in the *12th*, I’d suggest …

That should say 7th Century. No need to thank me, I’m just here to help :-)

Tony737 on November 19, 2008 at 3:50 PM

On a recent “Nova” program from CBS, they claimed the Israelites were not Israelite, and they invented God after stumbling through a region called “Yahoo.” (Hence “YHWH”). I shit you not.

indythinker on November 19, 2008 at 3:37 PM

That sounds almost familiar. I have seen a documentary that went through the recoverable archaeology of the jews: what you can actually find evidence for only goes back to around the time that Babylon invaded. It was not until Persia took Babylon that the Torah was compiled (and maybe writen) into one book, and the Persians returned (sent?) the them to rule Judea. Before that, the archaeological evidence doesn’t match up with the biblical story (including the that the Egyptians owned the area when the Hebrews were supposed to have come out of the wilderness to concur it).

Count to 10 on November 19, 2008 at 3:51 PM

So, goody for you. And yet, we both still breathe the same air. I don’t care if you are purple and have green horns, just don’t insult other’s belief just because you decided to leave.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:48 PM

How is asking you to substantiate your belief an insult?

Circ 1903…

Professor Einstein, we like your theory of relativity, and see that you believe in it fully. Can you provide some proof?

Einstein: “That’s the most insulting thing I’ve ever heard. Clearly, a man’s word isn’t what it used to be. Hmph”

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:53 PM

When someone sticks a statue of Muhammed into a jar of urine and puts it up in a museum ….

…. and call it art.

fixed.

Harpoon on November 19, 2008 at 3:54 PM

How is asking you to substantiate your belief an insult?

Circ 1903…

Professor Einstein, we like your theory of relativity, and see that you believe in it fully. Can you provide some proof?

Einstein: “That’s the most insulting thing I’ve ever heard. Clearly, a man’s word isn’t what it used to be. Hmph”

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:53 PM

I am not insulted. I actually feel sorry for you.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:56 PM

When someone sticks a statue of Muhammed into a jar of urine and puts it up in a museum, call me.

29Victor on November 19, 2008 at 3:22 PM

The artist might be getting a head of himself….

kybowexar on November 19, 2008 at 3:56 PM

Interesting story…. The guy’s clearly suicidal, by the way.

Incidentally, it seems it’s more likely that Muhammad really existed than Christ, but that’s to be expected since Jesus would have lived several hundred years before him.

Sign of the Dollar on November 19, 2008 at 3:57 PM

I am not insulted. I actually feel sorry for you.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 3:56 PM

Thanks. I’ll sleep better now.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:58 PM

I’d be interested to learn whether this German academic’s particular brand of stupidity was fostered by his being an academic or by becoming a Muslim.

Fortunata on November 19, 2008 at 3:59 PM

Incidentally, it seems it’s more likely that Muhammad really existed than Christ, but that’s to be expected since Jesus would have lived several hundred years before him.

Sign of the Dollar on November 19, 2008 at 3:57 PM

You probably should state this in terms of evidence. I think there are multiple sources for the existence of Mohamed, really one source with a few questionable confirmations for the existence of the man Jesus, and only one source for existence of Moses.
Extrapolating that into any kind of likelihood is not exactly rigorous.

Count to 10 on November 19, 2008 at 4:01 PM

Does this prove you can’t take a postmodernist into Islam without the postmodernism?

I found the Nova program about “Yahoo” to be utterly preposterous. I don’t think the archaeological record is very strongly against the Israelites occupying the land west of the Jordan before the Babylonian captivity. It’s just that it’s so old that there is not much evidence that is very clearly pointing one way or another way.

indythinker on November 19, 2008 at 4:02 PM

Has criticism of Islam/Muslims become an uncomfortable topic for the right now? Not a vote getter?

BL@KBIRD on November 19, 2008 at 4:03 PM

Circ 1903…

Professor Einstein, we like your theory of relativity, and see that you believe in it fully.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:53 PM

Er… Einstein didn’t publish his special theory of relativity until 1905. Furthermore, he didn’t publish his general theory relativity until 1915, and even then, it wasn’t verified by experiments until 1919 and 1921.

My collie says:

No need to thank us for correcting you. Just bein’ neighborly — like Tony737.

Do you suppose this guy will ever get any of his “facts” straight?

CyberCipher on November 19, 2008 at 4:03 PM

Death to the Infidel! After all, we are the religion of peace. And we’ll kill you if you deny it!

GarandFan on November 19, 2008 at 4:05 PM

I have to disagree with you Count of 10. There are numerous sources for the existence of Jesus. I named just a few in a post above. Some recorded within years of his death.

Mich_93 on November 19, 2008 at 4:05 PM

Should have said “a few years of this death.” Hit post before reviewing.

Mich_93 on November 19, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Death to the Infidel! After all, we are the religion of peace. And we’ll kill you if you deny it!

GarandFan on November 19, 2008 at 4:05 PM

Islam is a religion of pieces.

HornetSting on November 19, 2008 at 4:08 PM

The best part is that he is a Shiite, the sect that believes in the direct lineage to Mohammed.

Kafir on November 19, 2008 at 4:09 PM

I found the Nova program about “Yahoo” to be utterly preposterous. I don’t think the archaeological record is very strongly against the Israelites occupying the land west of the Jordan before the Babylonian captivity. It’s just that it’s so old that there is not much evidence that is very clearly pointing one way or another way.

indythinker on November 19, 2008 at 4:02 PM

Probably not the same one I saw–that one was made by Isreals. Also, its wasn’t that they didn’t occupy the land, it was that monotheism wasn’t introduced to the area until the return from Babylon, and the exposure to the Persian Zarathustra. Before that, Yaway was part of a pantheon, and had a consort.

Count to 10 on November 19, 2008 at 4:10 PM

I have to disagree with you Count of 10. There are numerous sources for the existence of Jesus. I named just a few in a post above. Some recorded within years of his death.

Mich_93 on November 19, 2008 at 4:05 PM

As I understand it, mention of Jesus is conspicuously absent from the local historical records, and appears to be entered after the fact in some Roman histories by someone who endorsed lying for effect.

Count to 10 on November 19, 2008 at 4:13 PM

‘Infidel’ by Ayaan Hirsi Ali should be required reading of every American.

digitalintrigue on November 19, 2008 at 4:15 PM

I would just note something about muslims and history:

We can all see how the modern muslim world can’t even get the history of the last several decades straight. Egyptians still teach their students that they won the ‘73 war and Saddam Hussein had built a museum to the great victories of the first Gulf War.

Just sayin’ …

progressoverpeace on November 19, 2008 at 4:15 PM

That’s funny. The poor guy, at some point, became so deluded in his thinking that he though the Muslim world, which exists in a hyper-sensitive, hyper-violent bubble, would behave the same as Christian or Hebrew worshipers facing similar claims.

Maybe he should’ve talked to Salman Rushdi or Ayaan Hirsi Ali before espousing that theory.

hawksruleva on November 19, 2008 at 4:16 PM

I am not sure what you mean my “local historical records” can you explain further?

Mich_93 on November 19, 2008 at 4:17 PM

I’d be interested to learn whether this German academic’s particular brand of stupidity was fostered by his being an academic or by becoming a Muslim.

Fortunata on November 19, 2008 at 3:59 PM

Vast numbers of German academics including scientists (engineers, physicists, chemists) signed a petition in support of WWI. One of Einstein’s best friends in Berlin was THE chemist responsible for the first use of chlorine gas on the battlefield. German intellectuals seem to be rather fond of war and death cults in that way.

My collie says:

Recall that Hiltler admired Islam because he thought it was a religion for the strong, and he despised Christianity as a religion for the weak (he was heavily influenced by the philosophy of Nietzsche).

Poor Einstein. He just didn’t fit-in very well in Germany. He tried to get academics to sign a petition against WWI while he was in Berlin. He got five people to sign it.

CyberCipher on November 19, 2008 at 4:18 PM

How is asking you to substantiate your belief an insult?

Circ 1903…

Professor Einstein, we like your theory of relativity, and see that you believe in it fully. Can you provide some proof?

Einstein: “That’s the most insulting thing I’ve ever heard. Clearly, a man’s word isn’t what it used to be. Hmph”

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:53 PM

Somebody should ask Al Gore and Dr. Hansen about that…

hawksruleva on November 19, 2008 at 4:19 PM

As I understand it, mention of Jesus is conspicuously absent from the local historical records, and appears to be entered after the fact in some Roman histories by someone who endorsed lying for effect.

Count to 10 on November 19, 2008 at 4:13 PM

Dude you are so full of it…the spirit of anti-Christ.

There are so many historical factual evidences of Jesus Christ, you would have to be either clueless or deliberately lying to say otherwise.

And yes you are deliberately lying, or at least the spirit of anti-Christ that is compelling you is lying..

SaintOlaf on November 19, 2008 at 4:20 PM

Really? How do you know that ‘Jesus’ sent his son to die for us? The same oral tradition, which has seemingly been struck down by this German professor and falls inline with your thinking.

Grow up.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:25 PM

Grow up and become what? Godless? You actually think that is better?

I>U

MikeA on November 19, 2008 at 4:22 PM

The fact is; islam is a Christian heresy.

Mohammed was taught by a heretic who was excommunicated from the Church, and later mohammed ripped off various elements of Christianity from the Orthodox on his mad demonic quest for power.

SaintOlaf on November 19, 2008 at 4:23 PM

Most Klingons know that Kahless is a fictional character. But at least Klingons have honor!

stonemeister on November 19, 2008 at 3:23 PM

Pardon my inner Trekker, but the Kahless character appeared in an episode of The Original Series and an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation. I’d say he’s pretty darn corporeal for a fictional character.

Kafir on November 19, 2008 at 4:24 PM

Muslims outraged? I’m shocked!

JustTruth101 on November 19, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Circ 1903…

Professor Einstein, we like your theory of relativity, and see that you believe in it fully.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Er… Einstein didn’t publish his special theory of relativity until 1905. Furthermore, he didn’t publish his general theory relativity until 1915, and even then, it wasn’t verified by experiments until 1919 and 1921.

My collie says:

No need to thank us for correcting you. Just bein’ neighborly — like Tony737.
Do you suppose this guy will ever get any of his “facts” straight?

If you really want to split hairs, I never said anything about when the paper was published. Clearly, there was some debate, discussion, etc prior to it being published, no? In any case, my argument is discredited because I didn’t head over to wikipedia to verify the date Einstein published the theory of relativity while its a-ok to spout nonsense which piegeon-holes every muslim as a 12th century savage?

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 4:29 PM

Somebody should ask Al Gore and Dr. Hansen about that…

hawksruleva on November 19, 2008 at 4:19 PM

Einstein actively solicited several astronomers in an effort to conduct the total eclipse experiments that proved his general theory of relativity (Edwards first in Washington state in 1918 – results inconclusive, Eddington in Africa in 1919 – results positive, and many astonomers in Australia in 1921 – results positive and conclusive).

My collie says:

By comparison, Al Gore and Dr. Hanson at NASA are snake oil salesmen. I like listening to Benny Hinn better — I get more laughs.

CyberCipher on November 19, 2008 at 4:30 PM

Grow up.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:25 PM

How is asking you to substantiate your belief an insult?

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:53 PM

Actually, beginning any discussion by telling your opposite number to “grow up” constitutes an insult. The implication is that you are a patronizing dolt who is so cocksure of his opinion that no one else can possibly disagree unless they are uneducated pre-pubescent trailer trash. The man believes what he believes through his faith. You ask him to prove it and he can’t…but then again, you can’t produce incontrovertible evidence to refute his belief. Yet you faithfully believe what you do. Oh yes, you can produce evidence, yet so can he. Your whole assertion is based upon you being the first to say, “PROVE IT.” Not very scientific at all.

sdd on November 19, 2008 at 4:30 PM

I, for the record, am a catholic atheist turned athiest muslim, and my lack of faith..
kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:41 PM

The truth comes out.

SaintOlaf on November 19, 2008 at 4:32 PM

Pardon my inner Trekker, but the Kahless character appeared in an episode of The Original Series and an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation. I’d say he’s pretty darn corporeal for a fictional character.

Kafir on November 19, 2008 at 4:24 PM

My personal theory is that it was Lincoln and Surak who were fictional.

k’PLAH!

Noocyte on November 19, 2008 at 4:47 PM

Frankly, we don’t need any more damn German “outreach” to the Muslims!

It was just such a German outreach to Muslims, starting in the 1830’s, by the so-called “German Orientalists”; that jumpstarted the modern Jihadi Movement, after centuries of retreat and quiescence!

The German Orientalists, in order to outflank the British Empire, and cause trouble for them, started their “Muslim Outreach” in the 1830’s; culminating during WWI with Kaiser Wilhelm wearing a Fez, and claiming to have converted to Islam, and claiming to have made the Haj to Mecca!

This gave a boost to Muslims worldwide, and helped revive the modern Salafiyah movement, gave impetous to the Deobandis as far away as Pakistan & India, who used the fact that “Germany had converted” to Islam, as a rally cry for their Anti-British Jihads, and which culminated in Hitler’s and Himmler’s flirtation with the Grand Mufti of Jeruselum (Arafat’s older cousin); who eventually raised Muslim Troops in the Balkans to fight alongside the Third Reich, who helped Himmler plan the Holocaust, who was indicted by the Nueremberg Commission, but was “allowed” to escape by the British!

The ramifications of the German “outreach” have been felt for past 180 years; with MILLIONS if not Tens of MILLIONS of lives lost!

We do not need any more!

Dale in Atlanta on November 19, 2008 at 4:48 PM

My question is what German passing as intelligent, perverts to Islam in the first place?

Probably the same ones that were at the messiah’s big show at Hitler’s favorite memorial during the campaign.

Wine_N_Dine on November 19, 2008 at 4:51 PM

indythinker on November 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM –

Mohammed “found” the black stone? Ummm, don’t think that is correct.

The Kaaba in the center of the Grand Mosque in Mecca was there a long long time before Mohammed came around.

Did Mohammed exist? Certainly enough circumstantial evidence to say “yes” with a high degree of certainty. About the same degree of certainty to say “yes” to Christ walking the shores of Gallilee.

But, the over all point, is that within the past 100 years Islam has found itself without the ability to challenge, question, historical or philospophical, and the rise of Wahabism has certainly made this nearly impossible, today. If Westerners mock Christians for the “belief” that Christ walked the earth…with about the same circumstantial evidence as found in the origins of Mohammed, then why cannot these same Westerners mock Moslems in the same vein?

Not that I advocate mocking, but let’s level the playground.

There was a time, even within my own lifetime, when various sects of Islam appreciated and respected all “people of the Book” (Ahl al-Kitâb). Thus faithful Jews and faithful Christians were treated somewhat more defferentially than they are now within the Islamic world.

Until Islam once again encourages their universities and religious centers to engage in debate as to all aspects of Islam, the Koran, and Sharia, they will screw themselves out of a healthy opportunity to get Islam back on the strait and narrow and protect and defend their Faith through living, not killing. The moment personal jihad became global jihad, the Wahabis won, and Islam lost. Getting the genie back in the bottle…wonderful question for the 21st Century. Are true believing Moslems across the globe up to the challenge?

[Question to the audience...have the murals showing the face of Mohammed in the frescos in a Damascus mosque been removed or are they still there? These were among the few known portrayals of Mohammed anywhere in the Islamic world for centuries.]

Muhammed Sven Kalish stepped over the line with his hypothesis that Mohammed did not exist…but, too many Moslems stepped well beyond the line when they accepted Wahabism and militant Islam (out of choice or fear) and have become exactly as the Western world today portrays them…children…either children out of control…or children too driven by fear to raise a unified voice of opposition to the hijacking of Islam by self-serving clerics and leaders who live very well (and often well outside the bounds of sharia) while the rest of the Faithful live (and die) as subservient slaves.

coldwarrior on November 19, 2008 at 4:52 PM

Dale in Atlanta on November 19, 2008 at 4:48 PM –

You are correct on your “last” German outreach program.

The Grand Mufti was a guest in Hitler’s Berlin at least twice, and German/Nazi “advisors” worked across the Middle east (yes, almost like in the Indiana Jones movie) in effort to sway Moslems to oppose Britain, France and a larger allied effort. Balfour being heeld as “law”, and Lawrence’s efforts to unify the Arabs tossed in the waste bin by the British government, the Germans actually had a willing audience…except a few of those who suffered under the Ottomans. Those who supported the previous Ottomans seemed to rally to the German “community outreach” program.

coldwarrior on November 19, 2008 at 4:58 PM

coldwarrior and others:

Islam is a dead writ. It is never coming back. It can never be reformed. The happy gentle tolerant Muslims who seem to love “the People of the Book” are only like that because at the time they are like that “The People of the Book” have the power to kick their ass. As soon as the situation flips, Muslims force “People of the Book” to pay the jizya, convert, become dhimmis, or just be killed. And of course the pagans, Hindus, atheists, and Buddhists simply need to all be exterminated according to Islamic doctrine. The problem is not Wahhabism becoming dominant in Islam. The problem is that Wahhabism is in fact a more faithful interpretation of the devil’s oh wait I mean Mohammed’s doctrines then is its rivals.

If Muslims fail to kill themselves before Islam goes the way of the pharaohs, hopefully the survivors will dig themselves out of the hole and join up with the rest of the human race in our post-Islamic world.

indythinker on November 19, 2008 at 5:35 PM

and when and how this whole rubbish will end? ban islam. cordon sanitaire. bomb, if necessary. don’t send troops there.

albertpale on November 19, 2008 at 5:50 PM

and when will and how this whole rubbish end?
sorry.

albertpale on November 19, 2008 at 5:53 PM

Two cults of darkness: islam and atheism.

Without God, Anything Goes

Let’s roll.

ex-Democrat on November 19, 2008 at 6:16 PM

Of Course Muhammad existed – why he even has his own official website now:

http://www.prophetmohammed.co.uk/index.html

Muslims should check out his photo albums & viewer gallery.

Peace.

Chessplayer on November 19, 2008 at 7:18 PM

Chessplayer on November 19, 2008 at 7:18 PM –

Cute.

No. Quite funny.

As one of my Middle Eastern student friends said recently, “If “we” could just develop a sense of humor like the rest of the world, things wouldn’t always seem so bad.” This said as we sat around and watched another episode of “Little Mosque on the Prairie.”

coldwarrior on November 19, 2008 at 7:35 PM

Al Qur’an = Mein Kampf.

Except Adolf was not as inclined to pedophilia as
Mohammad.

profitsbeard on November 19, 2008 at 7:47 PM

Two cults of darkness: islamChristianity and aAtheism(You normally capitalize such things).

Without God Allah, Anything Goes

Let’s roll.

Wow. I knew it sounded familiar.

Gene Splicer on November 19, 2008 at 8:57 PM

I think this development is a great thing. It means that Islam has or is developing the same type of conflicted religious leaders the Christian religion has developed.

Take for example Ted Haggard. He rallied for years if not longer against homosexuals only to finally admit he was and is one.

Well, Mr. Kalisch has no doubt rallied against the infidel only to finally admit he is one.

The only difference is that Mr. Kalisch will most likely not live as long as the former Reverand Haggard.

This and the existence of the Secular Islamic Summit are good signs.

Gene Splicer on November 19, 2008 at 9:25 PM

I blogged about this on Monday under the heading Dead Man Walking.

We have not hear the last of this man… Surely his obituary will follow within a couple of years… and that will be followed by much hand-wringing and empty words about “root causes” and “reaching out”.

darkpixel on November 19, 2008 at 11:18 PM

You on the other hand, “believe”.

kkaneff79 on November 19, 2008 at 3:41 PM

AND HE MUST BE STOPPED!!!!!

joewm315 on November 20, 2008 at 1:23 AM

I will not be holding my breath for Bill Maher to declare the Koran a bunch of muslim fairy tales, and an HBO special describing how there could not possibly have been a guy named Muhammad who tied his horse up and ascended to heaven in the same place in Israel where other jewish fairy tales took place.

Neo on November 20, 2008 at 8:12 AM

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