Inane debate over pledge of allegiance rocks Vermont school
posted at 1:20 pm on November 18, 2008 by Allahpundit
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Via Weasel Zippers, I had to read the story twice to figure out what the objection is. Students being forced to say the pledge? No, that’s been unconstitutional for 65 years. Atheists objecting to the “under God” bit being said in a public classroom? Nope, not that either. It’s still an open question legally, but there’s no hint from anyone quoted in the article that it’s an issue here.
The objection appears to be that kids who don’t want to say it might feel peer pressure being surrounded by those who do. The school’s very logical solution? Do everything it can, including physical segregation, to call attention to those students. Nuance:
No one’s for sure when daily recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance fell by the wayside at Woodbury Elementary School.
But efforts to restore them have erupted into a bitter dispute in this tiny town, with school officials blocking the exercise from classrooms amid concerns that it holds nonparticipating children up to scorn…
Instead, starting last week, a sixth-grade student was assigned to go around to the four classrooms before classes started, gathering up anyone who wanted to say it and then walking them up creaky wooden steps to a second-floor gymnasium, where he led them in the Pledge…
Friday, the routine changed again.
Just before 8 a.m., [Principal Michaela] Martin herded all the school’s students — and several adults — into a cramped foyer that adjoins the first-floor classrooms and told sixth-grader Nathan Gilbert, 12, to lead them in the Pledge…
In an interview, Martin said the point of having the whole school gather for the Pledge was to protect children who don’t participate in it.
“If you’re in a classroom with 15 students and you choose not to say the Pledge, it’s much more obvious than a group setting. When they’re saying it in a group of 55, it may not be so obvious. We don’t want to isolate children,” she said.
There is a religious element to this case, I think, albeit subtextually. One of the legacies of banning prayer in schools is paranoia at any hint of religious indoctrination; an atheist who can’t resist joining the choir when people around him pray was never much of an atheist to begin with, but a total ban on prayer is at least legally defensible given the special worry about state religion in the First Amendment. The school apparently wanted to adapt that zero-tolerance anti-indoctrination principle to a situation where there, er, isn’t zero tolerance (since they did, after all, retain the pledge). Hence the idiocy of the initial outcome: An honest to goodness quarantine of the non-pledging students in the morning to isolate them from the sort of scorn they’d surely be subjected to later. And the idiocy of the eventual compromise solution, which is decidedly not zero tolerance: What better way to make dissenters feel comfortable than to turn the daily pledge into a mass gathering/panopticon aimed squarely at their own anxiety?
Apropos of nothing, here’s Megyn Kelly and Michael Newdow completely misunderstanding what the case is about yesterday on Fox. Exit question: Has there been some sort of wave of schoolyard beatings for not saying the pledge that I haven’t heard about? The “just stand there and don’t say it if you don’t want to” rule seems to have worked okay for the last six and a half decades.
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AP, I’m a Christian, but I have to say your headline is spot on perfect.
Egads, that principal is frightening in her “logic” – what is sad is I almost followed it.
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 1:26 PM
When I was in elementary school, every week we would go to the auditorium as a school and not only recite the pledge, but sing songs like God Bless America, Proud to be an American, and others like that.
jimmy the notable on November 18, 2008 at 1:26 PM
Tyranny of the minority
DwnSouthJukin on November 18, 2008 at 1:27 PM
Amy Robach is NOT hotter than Megyn Kelly
sharrukin on November 18, 2008 at 1:27 PM
This is written at roughly a sixth grade level. Just how hard is it for anyone to understand? Congress can make no law that establishes a religion, and cannot prevent anyone from exercising their religion.
Vashta.Nerada on November 18, 2008 at 1:29 PM
Anyone besides me have the feeling that Michael Newdow got picked on alot as a kid?
aquaviva on November 18, 2008 at 1:29 PM
Of course, this was during the Clinton years when nobody could think of a reason whatsoever not to love your country.
jimmy the notable on November 18, 2008 at 1:30 PM
But didn’t you feel stunted by the indoctrination into nationalistic themes? As if your liberty were being questioned if you dissented?
/sarc
I’ve always wondered just what nation the dissenters wanted to pledge to? I mean it is a pledge not a signatory compact involving blood-letting.
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 1:30 PM
Tell all the people who don’t want to say the pledge that they can go pick up their bailout check in California. Then lock the door behind them.
pedestrian on November 18, 2008 at 1:31 PM
I muted the TV when Newdow came on. There are atheists and there are anti-theists. Most of the latter are as shrill as mating cats.
baldilocks on November 18, 2008 at 1:32 PM
When I was in third grade, a girl in my class wouldn’t stand for the pledge. We asked her why. She said it was against her religion.
We spent the rest of the year trying to destroy her….
Oh no…wait, that didn’t happen. Actually, no one really cared.
The only reason I happen to remember it at all is that I thought I was the only one with a ‘weird’ church at the time and the whole episode made me feel more normal (which made it a far more significant situation to me than it would have been otherwise).
JadeNYU on November 18, 2008 at 1:33 PM
jp on November 18, 2008 at 1:34 PM
More evidence that the public school system is a complete waste of time. ALL schools should be private. Let’s roll.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on November 18, 2008 at 1:34 PM
I believe the children who don’t want to say the pledge of allegiance should still be required to stand mute. They can explain to their friends why they are anti-American. They may get teased, but if they lived in any other country, they could be beaten, caned, or sent to re-education camps.
They live in the best country in the world where they are allowed to stand mute instead of pledging their love to their country. The children who WANT to pledge, should not be moved to “avoid” making these heathens more comfortable.
HornetSting on November 18, 2008 at 1:36 PM
There isn’t a talking head hotter than Kelly.
thomasaur on November 18, 2008 at 1:36 PM
Yeah, I think I had a girl like that in one of my classes, too. Nobody cared. I think she actually left the classroom when we would sing happy birthday to someone. Again, nobody cared.
jimmy the notable on November 18, 2008 at 1:38 PM
You had me going there for a second. We had some very vocal folks in my school too – Texas, 1970s It was unusual, but the only people making a fuss where them. We figured to each his or her own. Other than the five minutes of homeroom – no one cared or ever said anything about it.
I don’t recall any major lynchings or burnings over it – just the occasional blow-hard who had to make sure we knew why he or she was not saying the pledge. Usually it was the teacher who simply said, “Okay, thank you for sharing your 1st amendment right, now hush and let the rest of us.”
(laugh)
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 1:38 PM
I have a mother, two aunts and two cousins who were all teachers, and all have left the system in the past few years. All of them made it clear that one should do everything necessary to keep one’s children away from public school.
Vashta.Nerada on November 18, 2008 at 1:38 PM
The Separation of Church and State
Our founders had much to say about God’s place in government
Situation
Contrary to popular opinion, the term “separation of church and state” is found nowhere in the United States Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, or any other founding document of this nation. Yet for decades, some organizations and individuals have spread the myth that the words “separation of church and state” are found in the U.S. Constitution. Because of this misinformation, the ACLU and its allies have used this phrase to persuade public officials to silence religious expression.
Context
It was the intention of the Founding Fathers that religious faith should be encouraged, rather than discouraged. Unfortunately, there are those today who would ignore this history of America, and the intentions of our founders. ADF stands ready and willing to educate public officials on the true meaning of the First Amendment and help them stand up to the misinformation, intimidation, and fear used by the ACLU to silence the public expression of religious faith.
*This information can be found on the Alliance Defense Fund website under the “Religious” Tab then “Church and State”.
The Alliance Defense Fund is a legal alliance defending the right to hear and speak the Truth through strategy, training, funding, and litigation.
sinsing on November 18, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Well as someone who doesn’t believe in God I think the guy is an idiot.
There is absolutely no reason that children shouldn’t say the pledge of allegiance or school prayer. If someone truly is an atheist and does not believe there is a God then how is that any different than having someone sing Rudolf the Red Nosed Reindeer.
I was raised a non-believer and never had any problem with any of it.
sharrukin on November 18, 2008 at 1:41 PM
Just had to get that out there.
Some goobers voted Megyn Kelly second in hottest news anchors list.
sharrukin on November 18, 2008 at 1:45 PM
It’s not about the pledge as a whole, it’s about ‘under God’.
barry norris on November 18, 2008 at 1:45 PM
Our cookie is slowly crumbling. We are soon going to become a caricature of what we once were.
sherry on November 18, 2008 at 1:46 PM
sharrukin on November 18, 2008 at 1:41 PM
I had Jewish friends in elementary school who used to get even more excited about Christmas songs than most of us who were Christians. They enjoyed singing and getting into the fun of it. A Jewish doctor I know when told “Merry Christmas” always replies “Merry Christmas to you as well!” He does not get all vindictive or what all.
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 1:47 PM
I’ve started feeling sorry for atheists in recent years.
I had begun to think most of them were self-righteous jerks like Newdow and co.
Lately though, I’ve realized that these guys are the ‘media-darling atheists’. They as representative of the average atheist as Lincoln Chafee is of the average Republican. Sure, you guys might agree with him on certain points (just like I’m sure (I agree with Linc on certain points)….but that’s about it.
JadeNYU on November 18, 2008 at 1:48 PM
Maybe you should read my post as a whole, barry. Kids that say the allegiance are not going to understand the whole “under God” thing. They will believe you don’t love your country. The only one’s that care about the “under God” are the children that are told that it is wrong by their heathen parents.
HornetSting on November 18, 2008 at 1:50 PM
No, it appears the protest is about saying the Pledge of Allegiance, period, with a silly sop towards peer pressure.
INC on November 18, 2008 at 1:50 PM
<blockquoteHas there been some sort of wave of schoolyard beatings for not saying the pledge that I haven’t heard about?
Like that would have escaped the media. There is a church that doesn’t allow it’s members to pledge their alligence to anything other than God. Why don’t these adults explain to the students that there may be various reasons that students won’t say the pledge and all are valid so it is unnecessary to question peers about their decisions?
Cindy Munford on November 18, 2008 at 1:51 PM
Hasn’t Newdow already had his fifteen minutes?
Kafir on November 18, 2008 at 1:51 PM
I would not have brought a suit like Newdow did, but I can’t say he’s wrong either.
barry norris on November 18, 2008 at 1:51 PM
Yes but whenever he tries to leave, they just keep pulling him back in.
barry norris on November 18, 2008 at 1:52 PM
I feel the same way when people wish me well on their holidays.
I’ve been “shana tova”-ed on Rosh Hashanna. I’ve received red envelopes on Vietnamese New Year. I’ve had good wishes on countless Indian festivals and holidays (Pongal is my favorite!). Never once did I feel as if people were trying to force me to be Jewish or Hindu or to use a lunar-based calendar or anything else.
Wish me well because it’s a holiday or a Tuesday or because you had a good day today. I’m appreciative no matter what!
JadeNYU on November 18, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Actually I doubt I agree with him on much of anything!
I utterly despise most atheists in the public eye. They just use their personal beliefs as a way to attack their own nation and Christianity in general. Funny how they rarely have the balls to take on the Muslims though.
sharrukin on November 18, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Newdow: What’s the diffeence between “One nation under God” and “One nation under Jesus>”
Hey Newdow, there is a HUGE difference. True, “God” refers to the Christian Almighty, but “God” is also a generic term for the deity of multiple cultures. “Jesus” is a Savior of one particular religion. As an analogy, there is no difference between “God” and “Allah;” there is a big one between “Jesus” and “Mohammed.”
radjah shelduck on November 18, 2008 at 1:54 PM
My God! Look what it’s done to you! If only we had brave souls back then that would have stood up for your right not to be indoctrinated!
darwin on November 18, 2008 at 1:54 PM
When you think about it, the whole thing doesn’t make any sense anyway.
You’re not pledging allegiance to God. You’re pledging allegiance to a country that happens to exist under God. Refusing to say the pledge because the country believes in God is like refusing to say “I love you” to your mother because she believes in God.
Its really quite silly. There’s nothing in the pledge at all that even remotely suggest that the person pledging needs to believe in God.
jimmy the notable on November 18, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Amen to that.
whitetop on November 18, 2008 at 1:56 PM
i cant imagine any group being so offended by talking about a person they believe doesnt exist. its madness. i think some atheists just like to whine and want to do anything in their power to make the rest of us as miserable as they are. hitchens, who seems to just simply hate being alive, is an example of the type of misery i think a lot of atheists feel. i was going to say he doesnt seem the type to whine, but i remembered his childish temper tantrum in book form (god is not great).
TheBlueSite on November 18, 2008 at 1:57 PM
Why do shows continue to bring Newdow on as a guest? He is a fringe minority activist who gets immense publicity for his offensive causes of religious oppression.
bryanmyrick on November 18, 2008 at 1:58 PM
Q: What do you say when an atheist sneezes.
A: When you die nothing happens.
jimmy the notable on November 18, 2008 at 1:58 PM
Good question.
RightOFLeft on November 18, 2008 at 1:58 PM
Today there is no country. Only me.
Limerick on November 18, 2008 at 2:00 PM
Just looking at Newdow makes me want to spit.
Geronimo on November 18, 2008 at 2:00 PM
I think the whole thing is silly and overblown.
Say the pledge or don’t say it, but let those who want to say it do so.
Of course, I don’t have any problem with a moment of silence, either.
I fail to see how that is anything akin to forcing religion on someone or somehow creating a state religion.
BTW – if you don’t like the “under God” part, don’t say it when they get to it.
Religious_Zealot on November 18, 2008 at 2:00 PM
Nah, each of your sentences gets more ignorant than the last. I can’t make it to the end of most of your posts.
barry norris on November 18, 2008 at 2:00 PM
JadeNYU on November 18, 2008 at 1:53 PM
You don’t sound at all Jaded – or like a New Yorker…
At any rate, you just have yourself a Merry little Tuesday!
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 2:01 PM
Another reason to abolish the gubmint school system. Quite why this agency believes it has any constitutional authority to dictate that its pupils regimentally recite any pledge at all, is mystifying.
LimeyGeek on November 18, 2008 at 2:01 PM
‘One nation under God’ could mean what you state or it could mean one nation under the authority of God which is the problem.
barry norris on November 18, 2008 at 2:03 PM
Why do I hear strains of “Tomorrow belongs to me….”?
It is tragic. This is the one country so many are trying hard to get to -and so many already here have not a clue what they are losing.
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 2:04 PM
I pledge allegience to myself, one individual, living large, and to hell with everything else.
Limerick on November 18, 2008 at 2:08 PM
Here’s something from Wiki. The phrase “under God” came from the Gettysburg Address.
On Lincoln Sunday [I didn't know there was that designation], February 7, 1954, a NYC Presbyterian minister who knew Eisenhower would be attending the service preached a sermon on the Gettysburg address. He spoke with Ike afterward and Ike took the idea and ran with it. A bill was introduced the next day, and the sponsoring Senator spoke about it on Lincoln’s birthday, February 12, 1954. It was passed and signed into law that year.
Eisenhower said:
Here’s the section of the Gettysburg Address:
INC on November 18, 2008 at 2:10 PM
I have to admit that when I first recited the pledge of allegiance, it was just a string a meaningless syllables to me. Later, when I realized what the “under God” part meant, I stop reciting it, and just stood silently. After I was old enough to understand the rest of the pledge, I resumed reciting it, just without the “under God.” And, hey, that was they way it was originally intended, before congress got a hold of it.
Count to 10 on November 18, 2008 at 2:10 PM
…and the pursuit of bacon, beer, and plentiful hummers.
LimeyGeek on November 18, 2008 at 2:11 PM
Megan may be #2 on their list, but she’s #1 in my heart.
Seriously #2?? No way man. Maxim dropped the ball on that one big time.
saltydogg14 on November 18, 2008 at 2:12 PM
See, I can’t understand why that’s a problem. If someone doesn’t believe in God, why would it bother them to pledge to the nation that does? Are atheists sitting at home wondering how they can possibly go on surrounded by people who believe in what they might call a magical make-believe fairyman? Is it really THAT much of a burden to know most around you believe in a man you might equate to santa claus or the tooth fairy?
TheBlueSite on November 18, 2008 at 2:12 PM
This isn’t about the pledge. As Allah summarizes:
“The objection appears to be that kids who don’t want to say it might feel peer pressure being surrounded by those who do.”
i.e. this is about raising a generation of Hope&Change, socialized, “communalised”, politically correct, frightened cowering young people to believe that -any- criticism is bad, that -everyone- must think alike, that peer pressure is by definition ‘bad’.
Guess what? Get over it. Teach children to be flexible in their emotions. Teach them ’sticks and stones’. Teach them that different is ok, but that you aren’t obligated to feel harmony for every single other person that crosses your path. LIFE is difficult, sometimes.
Or as my dad used to say, “Quitcherbitchen.”
chautauqua on November 18, 2008 at 2:13 PM
better solution would be to make the pansy@ss kids who don’t want to say the pledge walk around with a toilet seat on their heads
gatorboy on November 18, 2008 at 2:14 PM
If forcing atheists to say the Pledge of Allegiance is ‘forcing’ religion upon them…
…isn’t, then, atheists stopping people from saying the Pledge ‘forcing’ THEIR religion upon others?
Religious_Zealot on November 18, 2008 at 2:15 PM
That would work!
Might be a bit controversial though.
sharrukin on November 18, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Seems like it.
Look, if it bothers someone (and it bothers me), then that person should just not say the “under God” part.
Or, maybe that was never the issue.
Count to 10 on November 18, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Hey, if you are going to bring logic into this – there will be a penalty called on the play
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 2:18 PM
I don’t quite see the distinction. Is there someone out there who believes in God but not his authority? When someone like Palin says she hopes she is doing God’s work, she doesn’t mean that she speaks to a priest before making a decision, she means that she hopes that her decisions are driven by a morality that is given to her by God.
Hell, right in the constitution, all of our rights are not given to us by the government. They are God-given; they are inalienable. The government is just there to protect them. If we are going to say, right in the constitution, that our rights are God-given, obviously we are living in a nation that, at least according to the founders, existed under God. Does that mean that every person in that nation has to believe in that God? No. But saying that God and Government are and have always been separate is just foolish.
jimmy the notable on November 18, 2008 at 2:19 PM
Easy solution…
Simply change the phrase from “under God” to “under The One”
gatorboy on November 18, 2008 at 2:21 PM
Schadenfreude on November 18, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Is this the same Supreme Court that opens its sessions by declaring: “God save this honorable court” or something like that?
For the record, Amy Robach cannot possibly be hotter than Megyn Kelly. She, and she alone, is the reason they call it “Fox.”
manwithblackhat on November 18, 2008 at 2:22 PM
I’m ready to stand corrected. But I’ve always read this as the separation of government from religion, not the other way around. The founders understood that freedom was given to us by our creator, and therefore religion was an important cornerstone to our country.
I would argue that those that are genuinely offended by the mention of god or God are hyper-sensitive and should seek therapy.
neal7 on November 18, 2008 at 2:24 PM
President John Adams, Oct. 1798.
John Quincy Adams
Psalms 33:12
We are headed toward a godless, immoral society in our deference to the minority who want a godless, immoral society. Get prayed up, stand up, speak up!
Christian Conservative on November 18, 2008 at 2:24 PM
It’s a school yard swing. Today is 1970 tomorrow will be 1943.
We have a local watering hole. One of those new fangled sidewalk cafe kinda bar/grills. Two fellas(?) sauntered up to the bar a couple of nights ago dressed in full on Akira outfits, complete with oversoled boots and all airbrushed in city camouflage and face paint(makeup?-I dunno-I wear Wranglers). Twenty years ago they would have ended up picking the sawdust out of their hair. Today, we try to pretend it is all just a bad dream. Texas, I miss you.
Limerick on November 18, 2008 at 2:24 PM
UNAUTHORIZED USE OF LOGIC; 10 yards and loss of down
thomasaur on November 18, 2008 at 2:25 PM
I believe it’s called ’standing up for what you believe’. Don’t want to say the pledge? Fine. Think you’re ‘being singled out’? By who? Just another way for the minority to make the majority feel guilty.
Simple answer….fuck ‘em.
GarandFan on November 18, 2008 at 2:25 PM
thats why some conservatives won’t have a problem with Obama’s mandatory youth corps thing, if done right. Older conservative that is.
jp on November 18, 2008 at 2:25 PM
I’d just like to know how I can pledge allegiance to the flag of the America that had liberty and justice for all without seeming to pledge allegiance to the flag of the America we have now.
This is a real issue. Tonight my daughter is going to sing a patriotic solo in the 3rd grade program. I’m glad to go, glad to hear her sing. We’ll say the pledge at the beginning and I’m trying to figure out how I can justify it, when everything America is supposed to be has been prostituted for Obama.
I’m telling myself this is the funeral that I need just for closure. The pledge will be just like the reading of an obituary, where the history of the dead person is remembered. America had a glorious history, was a beacon of hope and justice for the whole world. The world lost something truly great when she died.
It was a glorious America. I grieve for her.
justincase on November 18, 2008 at 2:26 PM
Limerick on November 18, 2008 at 2:24 PM
I assume you mean the Java Jar?
That is truly sad.
I miss Texas too. I miss America even more sometimes. (and I live in the Heartland…)
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 2:28 PM
Here’s another Founder’s Quote:
– John Adams (letter to Zabdiel Adams, 21 June 1776)
INC on November 18, 2008 at 2:28 PM
its the logical conclusion of the gradual shift from a Judeo-Christian culture to a Humanistic Culture, the motion has been in work for about a century now. It started with Secular thinkers ruling the philosophical circuit in the 1800’s and not be rebuffed. Hegel, Nietzche, etc…following Darwin of course.
jp on November 18, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Just terrible. How will these kids ever learn who Richard Stans is?
dinobalz on November 18, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Limerick,
About 15 years ago, in Fort Worth mind you and at a Boy Scout Jamboree, I took my nephews to see the rodeo being put on at the Stockyards.
When it came time to sing the National Anthem – I looked around and most of the people were obviously trying to keep up with the words. My nephews included.
It was truly sad.
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 2:30 PM
I wonder if Newts Documentary on this is uploaded on Youtube yet?
jp on November 18, 2008 at 2:30 PM
Just terrible. How will these kids ever learn who Richard Stans is?
dinobalz on November 18, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Or the joys of Liver Tea?
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Keep the faith, kybow. What is old will be new again.
Limerick on November 18, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Pretty much. In a sense, religion is kept out of government only so much as is necessary to keep government out of religion.
Count to 10 on November 18, 2008 at 2:34 PM
That depends. Is reciting the pledge of allegiance part of your religion? If it is, then clearly the pledge of allegiance is part of the establishment of a state religion. Oh, it’s not part of your religion? It has nothing to with religion? Then hopefully you won’t object if we remove the words, “under God.” Ad nauseum.
I don’t get why Christians are so anxious to mix their religion up with the state. It doesn’t lift the state up, it just drags religion down.
RightOFLeft on November 18, 2008 at 2:35 PM
The problem really isn’t so much with drifting toward a “Humanistic Culture” (honestly, I’m not sure what that means), but with the influence of the totalitarian communists, compounded by the hedonistic drug and sex addicts.
Count to 10 on November 18, 2008 at 2:38 PM
In other words, those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
RightOFLeft on November 18, 2008 at 2:38 PM
I work at a private non-denominational Christian school. All of our students say the pledge every morning with the exception of our international students. We recognize that saying the pledge to the US flag is disrespectful to them. All we ask is that they quietly stand while the pledge is being recited. This system works. The foreign students are not ostracized or threatened in any manner.
sdd on November 18, 2008 at 2:42 PM
See, we can’t have this, because those walking around without the toilet seats on their heads will feel left out and it will hurt their self esteem.
PappaMac on November 18, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Give ‘em he11 Megyn. Most conservatives have lost their spine. What little they had to begin with.
Griz on November 18, 2008 at 2:43 PM
I suspect a bit of misdirection. Religion kind of forms a barrier of last resort against some of the things that would damage the community, so people promoting that damage attack religion. In response, those of the religion fight back using the religion, which draws out objections from people who were not involved with the initial attacks on it.
Count to 10 on November 18, 2008 at 2:44 PM
The United States was established as a non-denominational state not as a non-Christian nation. Reading the founding fathers makes that very clear as does the terminology of the Declaration of Independence, and the Federalist Papers.
“We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”
sharrukin on November 18, 2008 at 2:44 PM
Actually, in the risk of sounding either philosophical or full or crap (You decide!) , we are not going to stop repeating mistakes and stupid – it’s a fallen world.
We don’t get better and create a Utopia on the planet. The ending is already written.
Not to say we shouldn’t try to keep the deck chairs tidy on the ship, but don’t look now – we are taking on water.
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 2:44 PM
They wanted to make sure there was never a Church of America. They did not sail all that way, fight all those battles, and cause all that guff just to set up what they’d left behind.
It was set up to protect the religion – not the government. However, they need to keep their mitts off of each other for both to be their best.
No mixing you two!
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 2:47 PM
Of course, I also think that the religion clause in the First Amendment has been too broadly interpreted.
I have a hard time understanding how a fifth grade choir singing Silent Night constitutes “establishing” a religion.
Religious_Zealot on November 18, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Hahahaha Constitutions and laws, how cute. We’re in the glorious age of Obama, don’t you see? We have no more use for little things such as those.
Grafted on November 18, 2008 at 2:50 PM
Religious_Zealot on November 18, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Glad to see you survived last night!
The best explanation of the pledge ever was by that GREAT AMERICAN RED SKELTON .
I’m going to do a search and see if I can find it.
kingsjester on November 18, 2008 at 2:51 PM
Religious_Zealot on November 18, 2008 at 2:48 PM
That’s because you’re a Religious Zealot!
What I want to do is ban that Rudolph! It’s annoying and I am certain that PETA is against it too! /sarc off – Just in case anyone was wondering…
kybowexar on November 18, 2008 at 2:51 PM
the founders held Church service on the Capital, in Capital buildings. There’s a reason why DC is litered with religious references on all the buildings.
All they cared about was not having a Federal State mandated Religion(i.e. the Church of England). has nothing to do with reciting the pledge
jp on November 18, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Kids shouldn’t have to do homework…you know, peer pressure and all…
right2bright on November 18, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Newt Gingrich – Rediscovering God in America
jp on November 18, 2008 at 2:55 PM
Silent Night is my second favorite Christmas song.
Right after Choir of the Bells.
(Is that odd coming from someone who is atheist?)
Count to 10 on November 18, 2008 at 2:55 PM
I suspect this just a bit of parody, but it’s no different than what Christian conservatives actually say. So the next time a Christian conservative is caught cozying up to a lobbyist in a bathroom stall (worst-case scenario), it’s a scandal multiplied by hypocrisy. The voters, Christian and non-, might reasonably question whether Christian conservatives are the best stewards of Christianity, conservatism, or (most of all) the country. And this, my friends, is how we elect a junior senator more famous for his line of pop psychology books than his legislative accomplishments.
RightOFLeft on November 18, 2008 at 2:56 PM
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