Video: Hey, who’s up for a “Bill Donohue and atheists yell at each other” clip?
posted at 7:45 pm on November 12, 2008 by Allahpundit
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What a segment this would have been if only they’d had me on as the atheist rep. As it is, you can almost hear the gears turning in the mind of the Fox person who booked it: “How can we fill four minutes of airtime with the maximum red-meat freak show quotient possible? Hey, I know.”
Exit question: What’s the money line? The invocation of Jeffrey Dahmer as an example of individualist morality? The ominous claim that nonbelievers are “sticking their nose in where they don’t belong”? Or the perpetual admonition about how lucky the godless are that Judeo-Christian culture tolerates their presence, with all the hints that that conveys?
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OK, your persistence demands a response, despite the silliness of your statements.
Taxpayers fund many accomplishments without permission or will. If you think that’s the epitome of charity, I feel sorry for you.
jgapinoy on November 12, 2008 at 10:47 PM
When exactly was he was supposed to do that?
Notice that people conveniently ignore that since Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same god, any point out that ‘God’ doesn’t exist applys equally to all those faiths. But that doesn’t fit in with victim mentality that a lot of people have to fall back on to act offended.
BathTub on November 12, 2008 at 10:52 PM
Bless you. Got a funny feeling you know of what you speak, (Same tired emoticon winking and smiling…dang, he’s tired!).
Chewy the Lab on November 12, 2008 at 10:52 PM
St. Nicholas was a Christian Saint. Over the years he eventually became Santa Claus.
Esthier on November 12, 2008 at 10:55 PM
Has anyone not lied? Never stolen anything…even a penny? Never disobeyed your parents? If you can say that..then I will call you good…Because I for one can say I am not a good person and can’t be good for goodness sake.
flash044 on November 12, 2008 at 11:00 PM
Warbaby, I seem to recall an old quote about there being no atheists in foxholes…am I correct that that is what you’re referring to?? Applaude your service.
Chewy the Lab on November 12, 2008 at 11:01 PM
I cannot express too strongly how much I loathe what Bill Donahue stands for. He exemplifies what a good Christian is not.
alex342 on November 12, 2008 at 11:01 PM
Thank God for Bill Donohue. He dropped the bomb on the godless toad. Atheists are responsible for most of the world’s atrocities in the 20th century. The definition of an atheist is an amoral person. There is no point in having morals if you truly believe that in the end, all that happens is that you rot in the ground. Jeffrey Dahmer was a true atheist. He cared only about his own demented personal pleasure. Atheists don’t believe in free will. That is why they are the first ones to round people up and put them on box cars.
Sean on November 12, 2008 at 11:01 PM
While atheism & Darwinism have been responsible for the vast majority of mass murder victims in human history, your other points are not logically sound in my view.
jgapinoy on November 12, 2008 at 11:10 PM
A big part of the fun of these threads is counting all the lies the religious people make up to justify their terrible strawmen arguments, apparently the commandment was ‘Don’t lie, unless it’s about someone who doesn’t believe any gods’.
BathTub on November 12, 2008 at 11:10 PM
ROFL. Allah dude you rock. I heart Allah.
Here’s Bill
“Assclown”Donohue ripping into the respected Conservative, pro-family, Oxford-trained Rabbi Shmuley Boteach of “Shalom in the Home” on Scarborough Country:When
Assclownsaid “Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular,” my jaw actually dropped. When his obviously whacked-out assistant Jennifer Giroux started ranting about “Jews killed Jesus!!” my jaw fell off entirely. I tough that crap went out with the Nazis. Bill Donohue is the reincarnation of Father Coughlin, the Nazi-loving Catholic priest popular before WWII.jim_collins on November 12, 2008 at 11:12 PM
Your logic, your power of persuasion, and your command of the rules of the English language, are all unstoppable forces. I’m overwhelmed.
jgapinoy on November 12, 2008 at 11:16 PM
If you said twenty years ago that homosexuals would be re-writing marriage as a fetishistic contract, how many people would have believed you? Only a very tiny handful; the people who were even then rabidly laying the groundwork.
Does this sound familiar to anybody else?
So now all the “evil” Christians of the world are athiest-phobic, too? Gathering up into imaginary mobs wielding imaginary pitchforks and imaginary torches – demolishing Atheist churches and slandering all of the wonderful things that Atheists don’t stand for.
It’s all part of the Big Lie. Oh yes, there most definitely are nihilists in the world; people whose lives are so unutterably pathetic and empty that they can imagine no higher purpose than to rabidly attack every institution that makes them feel insignificant in comparison; because it’s EASIER to blame those institutions than to look inward to see the true cause of their own despair.
But – despite everything the media scream at us so shrilly and repetitively – it’s more than a little bit asinine to assume that those people tend to be the ones who are raising stable families and going to church every Sunday.
logis on November 12, 2008 at 11:18 PM
I don’t care for Bill either, for the reasons you stated & that he’s too angry.
I wish they’d get Franklin Graham or James Dobson instead to represent Christians.
jgapinoy on November 12, 2008 at 11:18 PM
jgapinoy I fail to see how linking to your own blog is supposed to convice anyone of anything.
How about trying to explain how Darwin’s Theory of Evolution through Natural Selection is supposed to be to blame for the World War 2. Perhaps you could start by explaining why the book was banned?
BathTub on November 12, 2008 at 11:20 PM
Where do you get your statistics from?
Also, do we count the 9/11 hijackers in the godfull or godless category?
mycowardice on November 12, 2008 at 11:23 PM
I’m really having a hard time understanding how anyone could have any sort of problem with these ads. Could someone explain this to me? This is a serious question. Is it that you find the sentiment expressed (”Atheists can be moral too”) offensive? Or is it that the ads appeared around Christmas and featured Santa Claus, who has pretty much nothing to do with Christian doctrine? These ads seem completely inoffensive to me, and not worth even the slightest amount of agitation.
Jazzman on November 12, 2008 at 11:24 PM
It’s simple, really. Human beings are the only truly self-aware animals. As such, before the development of complicated society and our current elevation above the threats our ancestors faced in nature, men would have been paralyzed by the seeming meaninglessness of their existence. Spiritual belief comforts, giving man his reason for living and curing his fear of his inevitable death and obliteration.
Evolution is a very slow process, much slower than the development of human society, our knowledge and our understanding of the world. There isn’t really much practical use for religion in today’s world, but genetic traits take quite a while to fade away. Human beings have plenty of obsolete features – from facial hair to the appendix and beyond. Considering how almost all of us hold irrational, unprovable and often contradictory beliefs on nothing but faith, I’d say the idea of hard-wired spiritual belief makes some sense.
Either way, it’s just an interesting theory to me. If I wanted to be really kooky, I’d try to convince you that Zacharia Sitchin or Erich Von Daniken have the answer and ancient alien astronauts seeded humanity in order to use us as slaves and posed as our gods, leading to the creation of our myths and religions (there’s superficial evidence of this, if you’re really imaginative). The point is, religious belief is by nature a personal matter of faith and in my opinion it’s pointless and offensive to try to either indoctrinate people into a religion or to attempt to deprive the already religious of their belief.
Sign of the Dollar on November 12, 2008 at 11:25 PM
I listened to Bill Donohue for 12 seconds, groaned, and stopped the vid.
Either way, remember:
Claiming there is no god = Claiming there is a god
Both are unprovable, both require faith, and both have organizations out to try to convert people to their beliefs.
Atheism is a religion like any other.
MadisonConservative on November 12, 2008 at 11:25 PM
So the only thing keeping you from being a flaming sociopath is fear of punishment from an invisible being in the sky? Not fear of PMITA prison? Thats nice to know. Maybe you should get some help, except psychopaths don’t respond to therapy, and theres evidence it makes them worse.
jim_collins on November 12, 2008 at 11:28 PM
+1
Connie on November 12, 2008 at 11:28 PM
Chewy the Lab
No, I won’t claim service.
My Dad was killed in France in ‘44, a little while before I was born.
When the Nam thing came around, Sole Surviving Son plus being married with a baby kept me pretty low on the list. Like most guys my age, I guess I’ve never been too sure how to feel about that. I felt like I owed my Dad, but I sure was happy to have a home, and a baby. The thought of Vietnam definitely scared me, but thinking about it didn’t scare me as bad as a few things that have happened to me since.
With one thing and another, my life’s been what a friend calls “close to the ground”. Awful lot to learn this time around, but I don’t deserve your respect for service.
Thanks, just the same.
warbaby on November 12, 2008 at 11:31 PM
progressoverpeace on November 12, 2008 at 11:36 PM
Okay, for the sake of finding out about this, I watched the rest of the clip.
No, Allah, he wasn’t saying they tolerate their presence, he said Judeo-Christian ethos allowed people like him to be able to practice free speech. Seconds before he reinforced this by saying the liberty in this country is based on the Judeo-Christian outlook. It was the equivalent of saying the soldiers make it possible for people to have free speech. You’re off on the implication there.
MadisonConservative on November 12, 2008 at 11:48 PM
I never claimed that it was the only cause, but Hitler was certainly influenced by Darwin & by the logical next step of evolutionary logic, Neitzche, who taught the “merits” of utter selfishness for the good of the species.
jgapinoy on November 12, 2008 at 11:51 PM
And if I ask about the priest that molest kids?
mycowardice on November 12, 2008 at 11:57 PM
Any minute now, someone will recite a certain Hitler quote that sounds just like a Christian sermonette. Of course Hitler used evangelical language to appeal to the Lutherans of Germany. But to suggest he was a Christ-follower, as some atheists do, would be absurd.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 12:03 AM
There is no ‘if’ to it. You have no choice in the matter.
Television is a religion, like any other. You KNOW that men bite dogs, and never the other way around, because your belief system is one that worships perversity solely for the sake of perversity.
logis on November 13, 2008 at 12:04 AM
Also, do we count the 9/11 hijackers in the godfull or godless category?
mycowardice on November 12, 2008 at 11:23 PM
Much like atheists, the 9/11 hijackers did not believe in free will which is one of the fundamental flaws in Islam. They believed god was controlling them and every thing they did was god’s will because he controlled their every action. Atheists don’t believe in free will because they believe humans are nothing more than beast who won the luck of the draw in evolution game of chance and that humans are still controlled by their primal instincts. Atheism and Islam are close relatives.
Sean on November 13, 2008 at 12:13 AM
I have no idea what that means. What is my belief system?
mycowardice on November 13, 2008 at 12:14 AM
Atheists believe in free will because they don’t think anything controls them, other than themselves.
Some christians on the other hand believe that God is punishing us for our sins using natural disasters. How free are we in that case?
With all due respect, this is a ridiculous argument. Everytime I will point out some religious person that did a bad thing you will remove him from your team because it doesn’t suit your argument.
mycowardice on November 13, 2008 at 12:17 AM
mycowardice on November 13, 2008 at 12:17 AM
Could you point out the “bad thing” Jesus did as he is the only one who counts
clarifides on November 13, 2008 at 12:20 AM
God doesn’t believe in Athiests.
There are none.
The atheist is blind, and this blindness is willful. They cannot see because they don’t want to.
“There is no God” is an absolute statement. For an absolute statement to be true, we need absolute knowledge. If I said, “There is no gold in China,” I need absolute knowledge that there is no gold in China. I need to know what’s in every riverbed, in every rock, etc., because if there is one ounce of gold in China, my statement is false. However, I simply need to have seen a Chinese person in China yawn, see a gold tooth to know that there is gold in China.
Psalm 14:1 “The fool hath said in his HEART (not his HEAD) that ther eis no God”
John The Baptist on November 13, 2008 at 12:23 AM
*hug*.
Reaps on November 13, 2008 at 12:25 AM
You just answered your own question. Of course stupidity isn’t a GOOD belief system. But if it’s all you’ve got; it’s all you’ve got.
logis on November 13, 2008 at 12:28 AM
Atheists believe in free will because they don’t think anything controls them, other than themselves.
mycowardice on November 13, 2008 at 12:17 AM
That’s ridiculous. Atheists no more believe in free will than they believe a dog has free will to choose to hump your leg or not.To an atheists, free will is nothing more than an action controlled by a chemical reaction in the brain developed by years of evolution which means it is not free will. When a human is nothing more than an evolved beast, it becomes very easy to find a reason to exterminate them.
Sean on November 13, 2008 at 12:30 AM
Sign of the Dollar on November 13, 2008 at 12:38 AM
Christianity requires only a small step of faith, Athiesm requires a large leap across the Grand Canyon.
The easy road is rarely the safest.
leetpriest on November 13, 2008 at 12:45 AM
Donohue is an absolute idiot. That said, he’s perfect for the position he has. He’s exactly what you’d expect for his position.
Who cares if they have billboards like this? It shouldn’t affect your belief if you are strong enough. I wish the Catholics would concern themselves more with telling people about Jesus than accusing people of being like Jeffrey Dahmer and Hitler if they don’t agree with you.
Heather Nauert is awesome too. I never get to see her, but she’s so pleasant.
ThackerAgency on November 13, 2008 at 12:47 AM
Atheists believe there was nothing, and then it all suddenly just banged into existence from…nowhere, I guess.
Christians believe there is an invisible man in the sky who loves you but will send you to hell if you don’t follow his ten rules.
And Buddhists just tell everyone to chill out.
I hate them the most. Hippies.
MadisonConservative on November 13, 2008 at 12:50 AM
An atheist has absolutely perfect “free will” – but his definition of that term is the exact opposite of yours.
You may disobey your God, and you have only Him to answer to. If a Muslim disobeys his God, he has to answer to a tribunal. But an Atheist can never disobey his God – ever.
But it’s not fair to judge someone based on what God he decides to worship – whether that God happens to be a goat-humping pedophile, or even a scatter-brained Internet Troll.
Every religion has some degree of intolerance toward the beliefs of others – with one exception: Atheism consists of absolutely nothing else besides that.
I have no problem with how many times a day the average Muslim prays – or with which direction he sticks his butt while he does it. The only part of Islam that is inimical to peace is the Atheist part of it. And, to be fair, that’s also the only part of Atheism that keeps causing problems.
logis on November 13, 2008 at 12:55 AM
There is no way on earth I can possibly even begin to prove that a wrongly executed man didn’t return from the dead in order to forgive his murderers. Nor can I offer one shred of scientific evidence to contradict the belief that our ancestors’ souls return to us in the form of farm animals. Either of those belief systems – or any of a hundred others – can lead to a very rich spiritual life.
But when I hear some (with all due respect) scatter-brained jackass try to tell that the mere act of gainsaying the beliefs off all peoples of the earth at the same time mystically transforms him into the Arbiter of Truth, I’m sorry but I have to draw the line. That’s where my otherwise infinite tolerance comes to a screeching halt.
Atheism is, by far, the most totally screwed-in-the-head religious cult that the world has ever seen. Those people are just plain crazy!
logis on November 13, 2008 at 1:08 AM
@ lorien1973 on November 12, 2008 at 7:54 PM
Um, because a VAST majority of this country is christian maybe? Are you serious?
muyoso on November 13, 2008 at 1:12 AM
Everybody believes the universe came from nothing, one way or another. Funny comment, btw.
RightOFLeft on November 13, 2008 at 1:16 AM
Its all a mute point anyway. In 5 generations religion will be so sidelined that it won’t even matter. America will be a majority agnostic or atheist within my lifetime. Religion is constantly fighting a losing battle. Another couple kid toucher scandals and we might be able to even speed up the process. Your biggest mistake as Christians was to allow the advent of the internet. The internet will be your downfall, as ideas and criticisms are spread around widely of religion and the children you try so hard to indoctrinate with your certain sect of belief are exposed to more and more information. Its like you guys are the old lion that is defending his lioness for the last time, knowing full well that a younger more appealing lion will replace you next year. Its kind of sad, in a completely non saddening way.
muyoso on November 13, 2008 at 1:23 AM
…uhhhhh huh.
Keep the faith. Right up there with the Second Coming.
MadisonConservative on November 13, 2008 at 1:25 AM
Gee, thanks for lumping me in with Nazis.
Gotta say, that’s a pretty asshole thing to say. Remember the war in Israel in 2006? I’m Californian, I am not Jewish, and I don’t believe in God. I flew to Israel during the war to show my support and volunteered to help up north where rockets were falling.
What the fuck did you do?
Summer on November 13, 2008 at 1:56 AM
There are moral atheists, immoral atheists, moral theists and immoral theists. The whole morality = religion thing has to go. Seriously… if you think morality is necessarily religious, why the hell AREN’T you flying planes into buildings?
Mark Jaquith on November 13, 2008 at 3:07 AM
Notice who people like BathTub quote that erroneous lefty canard. Christians and Jews do not worship the same god as Muslims. It can be said that the God of Israel is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ (although Jews do not accept Jesus as Messiah). Christianity/Judaism and Islam (which only shows elements of contact with heretical forms of Christianity) however, are mutually exclusive propositions.
Trinity and Incarnation, the foundations of Christians belief are deserving of death penatlies in Islam.
Put it this way: in parts of the Muslim world, addressing God as “Father” as Christians do, still separates you from your head.
Until you get that, you will never understand why Muslim extremists represents such a serious threat.
saint on November 13, 2008 at 6:33 AM
Who said morality = religion?
Religious people put Jesus on the cross.
Besides, everyone has a religion, but not everyone is moral.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 6:36 AM
As a Christian, I also reject Sean’s jumping to conclusions, as I’m sure 99% of us would.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 6:39 AM
This idea first gained notoriety in the late nineteenth century, with philposophers like Fredrich Nietzsche predicting that the increasing popularity of atheism would usher in a new age in the twentieth century. It did…an new age of evil, with more war casualties, more genocide, and more politically motivated killing than the rest of history combined.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 6:41 AM
Bill Donahue is an ignorant pig. Or a very clever entertainer. Does he have a job besides being outraged and outrageous on cable television?
RightOFLeft on November 13, 2008 at 6:50 AM
I don’t believe it, & I’m not sayin’ it, but how do you like seeing this:
“
Bill DonahueRightOfLeft is an ignorant pig. Or a very clever entertainer. Does he have a job besides being outraged and outrageous oncable televisionHotAir?”No one learns from or is edified by comments like yours. Just like LimeyGeek, who repeatedly said here that he wants to assault old Bill & lots of other Catholics.
I don’t find old Bill to be a role model either, BTW. He seems too angry.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 7:05 AM
Bill Donahue really, actually is an ignorant pig. I’m not trying to be provocative, I’m just stating a fact.
RightOFLeft on November 13, 2008 at 7:21 AM
I’m an atheist and it really angers me when other atheists feel it is their mission to prove to believers they are wrong. How dare they? Live and let live. That smug little creep from the humanist crowd is a jerk. The Ramadan point was spot on – take on the Muslims if they are so committed.
I envy people with faith. Who am I to dissuade them? I have as little time for “humanists” trying to push their views on others as I do evangelicals coming to my door urging me to repent and find Christ.
suntzuyou on November 13, 2008 at 7:31 AM
Donahue hasn’t produced a rational thought – I don’t know, maybe ever. He’s a prop for cable news. Pull a string on his back and watch him go from 0 to Godwin in 10 seconds. There’s no discussion I could detract from or add to. Any chance of a civil discourse was sucked up in Donahue’s intellectual vacuum. He’s a malignant idiot.
RightOFLeft on November 13, 2008 at 7:31 AM
I guess the reason they get Donohue rather than Franklin Graham or Dr. James Dobson is that they prefer heated exchanges.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 7:32 AM
He’s a bigoted sewer of hate. He’s an embarrassment to Christianity (and our species, in general). He’s the finest spokesman for atheism we have.
RightOFLeft on November 13, 2008 at 7:38 AM
Saint – you are spot on. The only people I have ever heard claim that Christians and Muslims worship the same God are the ones who try to convince us that Islam is the ‘Religion of Peace”.
Sporty1946 on November 13, 2008 at 7:40 AM
It worked. The humanist guy they had on was calm and polite, though. I’m glad it was him and not me.
RightOFLeft on November 13, 2008 at 7:43 AM
Mo-HAM-med was a bloodthirsty, demon-possessed child molester. The god he invented has no friends, but my God loves humanity enough to leave the glory of Heaven to suffer & die for the sake of those who would become his friends.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 7:46 AM
Reading through the arguments against Christianity, there appear to be at least four themes: 1) I know some professed Christians whom I don’t like; 2) some bad stuff happened to me or to someone I know so God isn’t merciful; 3) gee there are some passages in the Bible that I don’t get; or 4) I had a bad experience at church as a kid, therefore all churches are bad.
The favorite passage of the anti-Christian crowd seems to be, “Judge not…” This is used to pre-empt ANY criticism of deviant behavior. I don’t think the Apostle Paul was too hung up about making moral judgments.
For starters, I suggest would be to REALLY study Genesis, Exodus, Daniel Isaiah, the Gospels, Corinthians and Hebrews. See how the Old Testament prophecies fit with the New Testament in ways the original Jews would have never foreseen. See how Jesus appears to reserve his highest contempt for the outwardly religious Pharisees whom he calls “whitewashed tombs.” See how he deals with the woman at the well who had 5 children from 5 different fathers. Etc, etc.
Go attend a service and hear a rationale, learned, loving pastor preach.
Then spend a day doing service with a Christian outreach group from a local mainline church.
While you may not be a convert, you will really have a hard time taking cheap shots at Christianity. Plus, before you make up your mind about potentially eternal matters, it might pay to challenge glib certitudes.
johnboy on November 13, 2008 at 7:52 AM
I just watched Saving Private Ryan for Veteran’s Day. I guess you’d find Tom Hanks’ Captain reprehensible.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 7:56 AM
Well said.
My favorite “glib certitude” is “there is no God”. Like someone can really search the entire universe to prove it.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 8:00 AM
OK, your persistence demands a response, despite the silliness of your statements.
Taxpayers fund many accomplishments without permission or will. If you think that’s the epitome of charity, I feel sorry for you.
jgapinoy on November 12, 2008 at 10:47 PM
So you DO have a fully funded Armed force that allows you to be first on the scene at these natural disasters? You will either have to provide citations or stop changing the parameters.
Krydor on November 13, 2008 at 8:03 AM
If nothing else, you’re good for entertainment.
Are you totally unaware of the work done by tens of thousands of Christian volunteers worldwide?
Salvation Army, Samaritan’s Purse, Save The Children–ever heard of them?
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 8:10 AM
My wife & I are very involved with this one & this one.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 8:12 AM
Since Athiesm unquestionably believes there is no god it should be termed a religion as well.
Just one based on the faith, without evidence, that God does not exist.
Are religions allowed to advertise on public city busses?
IF not, Anti-religion should be denied on the same bases.
Thune on November 13, 2008 at 8:17 AM
Salvation Army, Samaritan’s Purse, Save The Children–ever heard of them?
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 8:10 AM
Sally Ann happens to be one of my favorite charities. I donate both money and food to them. One of the only charities I trust.
You still haven’t provided any citations, nor have you shown that Christians are always “first there”. Because they aren’t.
Krydor on November 13, 2008 at 8:21 AM
it’s not clear how well Jesus fulfilled Jewish messianic prophecies. If it were as clear as you’re implying, there wouldn’t be any Jews. Also, the prophecies were written to be self-fulfilling, or left vague enough to be retrofitted. Jesus’ claim is as controversial now as it was 2000 years ago.
The rest was some variation of “Christianity is true because it enriches my life.” That may be a good reason to practice Christianity, and I think it’s true for most Christians, but it’s not a good reason to believe that Christian mythology is literally true.
RightOFLeft on November 13, 2008 at 8:39 AM
Allahpundit: The King of the succinctly hilarious headline/subhead connection. Long may he reign.
Mary Magdalen on November 13, 2008 at 8:42 AM
It was clearly predicted that he would be born of a virgin in Bethlehem. How did he work that out, if he’s not really divine?
Many details of his death were predicted in Isaiah 52 & 53, as well as Psalm 22. If he tried to self-fulfill those, why would he want to die if there’s no resurrection?
There were dozens of predictions about his first coming, & many more about his second. I suggest you prepare for that.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 9:08 AM
You’re not going to surprise me. I was raised with this stuff, and I took it seriously.
RightOFLeft on November 13, 2008 at 9:16 AM
Basically, we’re going to have a pointless argument about how to interpret arcane verse. I think you’re attributing meaning that just isn’t there after the fact to fit the life of Jesus. You’ll disagree. It’s all good.
RightOFLeft on November 13, 2008 at 9:20 AM
RightOfLeft, you’re right, the following could mean anything, & it could be written about anybody. It was written hundreds of years before Jesus of Nazareth was born, so it has nothing to do with him, right?
13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him —
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
15 so will he sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
jgapinoy on November 13, 2008 at 9:36 AM
I hate flooding the thread like this, so I’ll make this my last post. Psalm 22 is a poem, not a prophecy. David is writing in the first person, “they pierce my hands and feet.” It’s a poignant verse about tribulation and betrayal.
Isaiah 52 is specifically about freeing the Jews from Egypt, so right off the bat it contradicts the idea that Jesus was a spiritual savior (rather than a political savior). Even if you ignore the verses about “redeeming Jerusalem” and “apportioning soil” it’s still open to interpretation. There’s certainly nothing about a crucifixion, and nothing about Rome.
RightOFLeft on November 13, 2008 at 9:55 AM
Ok, I lied. One more post. Look up confirmation bias, cross-reference Nostradamus.
For example. Was Jesus despised by men? On the contrary, he was so popular that Roman authorities saw him as a political threat.
RightOFLeft on November 13, 2008 at 10:05 AM
The bigger argument is the attempted co-opting of a religious holiday – Christmas – by these groups. Yes, mercantile interests have secularized the holiday broadly, but it is still – at its roots – a CHRISTIAN holiday.
PJ Emeritus on November 13, 2008 at 10:07 AM
Atheists constantly claim they aren’t overtly “pro-Satan,” but is it possible to be more overtly “anti-Christ” than that?
A very small handful of Atheists, like Christopher Hitchens, are equinimical in their intolerance – carefully apportioning their bile and hating everyone who believes everything with the exact same level of vehemence.
But the vast majority of “Atheists” are really just puerile posers, focusing their spite on the one religion they happen to see most often around them, and doing it with the infantile sort of contempt that’s born solely of familiarity.
…Overgrown punks trying to play at being radical. They think that just because they don’t draw pentagrams and bathe in goat’s blood, their infantile rebellion is somehow more chique.
logis on November 13, 2008 at 10:38 AM
As a Christian who gladly gave up a week of vacation to go down from Ohio to volunteer two weeks after Katrina… you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Thousands of us came down just from central Ohio. I know that for a fact because my cousin was a big organizer of trips. He himself made over seven trips and worked coordinated trips with locations down there.
Material donations flowed into the churches, organized and distributed by volunteers. Every church in the area was used. For our trip down, people donated money for food and gas, churches put us up overnight, and then hosted us when we were down there.
American Red Cross… not so much… I only saw 2 Red Cross vehicles the entire time I was down there… one sitting abandoned in a parking lot, and the other in New Orleans. I operated out of Mandeville, but also visited Fulsom and Slidel. My cousin was in the first group admitted into New Orleans that week.
Every church was being used, lines of cars lined up. I personally drove distribution truck teams out into the suburbs, going door-to-door distributing supplies, and later mucking out houses.
Later in the week, I led a group that prayed for water. Because our supply routes were running thin. Only a palette or so was left at the church. So us guys prayed… for water. The next day we were asked to go pickup a load of water. A half-semi truck had been delivered to a Harvest Church in Slidel. So me and some guys from Columbus Oh (Church of Nazarene and Church of Christ) picked up a 9-ton load of water with a truck from Church of Christ in Mandeville, to deliver to Fulsom to a Baptist Church, manned by volunteers from a non-denominational church from Tennessee. And that’s how the body of Christ is supposed to work.
Volunteers, working out of churches were the only teams going door-to-door. We were the only teams of chainsaw crews removing trees from houses (which was required before they could turn on power).
We gave what we could and asked for nothing in return. I talked to dozens of teams and ran into dozens of groups in transit, and heard stories similar.
A quote from that one week trip…
(From a guy who was standing next to his destroyed house)… “You’re Christians aren’t you. I know because you’re the tenth truck that’s come by today… asking if I needed help… and all of them were Christians from some church… not even from around here.”
And when I come back, after seeing such dedication and sacrifice and service to fellow man, back to the “real” world…
…I hear constant commercials for the American Red Cross, who barely lifted a finger, begging for more and more and more money. Where did the millions go? I’ll give blood, but not one dime after what I saw. If you really care about disasters, give to churches… they were the ones doing real work.
…not one word about the massive distribution channels, volunteers and work of the churches.
…and after even years, I hear even more lies… some from you.
Am I angry about what you said? Yes, I should be angry when lies are spread to smother truth. Am I going to call you names and spread more hate? No. That is not what Christians are about. But I will not allow lies to cover the truth of what happened.
I pray that you will eventually turn to God, and that he can work in you what He worked in me.
dominigan on November 13, 2008 at 10:42 AM
I am for the crucification of anyone who gets on TV and claims that there is a god or is not. This includes the Pope, those intolerant d-bags in Saudi Arabia and athiests who claim to know the real truth.
grdred944 on November 13, 2008 at 10:48 AM
I really despise Donohue, both Phil and Bill.
Squid Shark on November 13, 2008 at 11:03 AM
I love Bill Donohue, and never cared for Phil. Then again, I’m Catholic and Bill speaks to my concerns. Phil never did.
Angry Dumbo on November 13, 2008 at 11:24 AM
This guy Donohue is a fascist. I can’t believe what he gets away with. Pair him with Hitchens.
Baphomet on November 13, 2008 at 11:28 AM
I liked his point about the group being gutless. Why don’t they attack Ramadan? It’s because most Christians will just shrug and move along. If he had attacked Islam in the same way he would need lots of security.
rightonamerica on November 13, 2008 at 12:26 PM
Atheists, idiots, ignorants, homosexuals all vored for Obama. The US deserves what’s coming to them, a communist government.
tocoloro on November 13, 2008 at 1:04 PM
In practice, the atheism versus religion argument is nonsense, because there is no difference between theism and atheism for many religious people. This was Nietzsche’s point in the quote “God is dead.” For those who haven’t read this quote. Nietzsche has a madman say “God is dead” in a Christian church. His point is more that bulk of Christians have become atheistic–like say the Episcopalian Church, but it is far more persuasive than just that Church. It’s just that Christians play word games to cover up their atheism, and so do Jews. Even the most blatantly atheistic Judeo-Christian religious sect, Reconstructionist Judaism, makes the effort of calling something that is clearly not any traditional idea of God “God” so they too can play the theism game.
I don’t really see this landscape changing anytime soon. There will be theists who actually believe in the old-fashioned deity. There will be more “theists” redefining God as they see fit. For the most part their definitions wouldn’t even make sense if they were forced to come up with a definition. And there will be atheists who fall into the trap of trying to tell the “theists” that they are wrong, but “theists” won’t agree to discuss the issue.
thuja on November 13, 2008 at 1:22 PM
Wrong.
MadisonConservative on November 13, 2008 at 1:33 PM
Frank Costanza: “A Festivus for the rest of us!”
RMCS_USN on November 13, 2008 at 2:14 PM
Well I am comforted by the fact that neither one of those men are the truth holders of the universe.
If atheists want to waste a bunch of money on this crap, then let them. Unfortunately, I realize it may influence some people to sway towards non-belief. But that’s why we’re a free country-you are free to believe or not to believe.
But that’s a personal struggle everyone deals with.
It was a pretty stupid conversation. Philosophy should not be newsworthy.
Badger40 on November 13, 2008 at 2:31 PM
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