Catholic bishops: Fight FOCA
posted at 10:30 am on November 12, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Catholic bishops issued a call for fierce opposition to the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA) from their annual national conference. They offered olive branches to the incoming Barack Obama administration on a wide range of policies, but drew the line at rolling back every abortion restriction over the last 35 years. Saying that they could never cooperate with evil, the bishops called into question whether the Catholic Church would continue to provide health care if FOCA passes:
Meeting on the second day of their annual conference, the nation’s Catholic bishops urged an aggressive campaign to oppose the pro-abortion bill expected to be the centerpiece of the Barack Obama administration. They also mentioned concerns about Catholic hospitals being forced to do abortions. …
The statement included talking points saying that the Catholic bishops were willing to work with Obama on common issues like the economy, immigration and health care, but ready to strenuously oppose any efforts to expand abortions further.
“The church is also resolute in opposing evil,” and the bishops are “completely united and resolute in our teaching and defense of the unborn child from the moment of conception.”
The bishops also expressed concern about FOCA because it could overturn protections for Catholic hospitals that don’t want to do abortions.
Some of the bishops, during the discussion, went as far as saying the Catholic Church should be willing to close some health facilities rather them allow them to be subject to a mandate to do abortions from the Obama administration.
How serious are they? So serious that they won’t bother to sell the hospitals. They’ll shut them down and take the losses in order to prevent their use as abortion clinics. To do otherwise, the bishops stated, would be to cooperate in the evil of abortions.
What kind of impact would that have? The Catholic Church is one of the nation’s biggest health-care providers. In 2007, they ran 557 hospitals that serviced over 83 million patients. The church also had 417 clinics that saw over seven million patients. If they shut down almost a thousand hospitals and clinics nationwide, the US would not just lose a significant portion of available health care, but the poor and working-class families that received the health care would have fewer options.
Also, the Catholic Church runs this on a non-profit basis, spending vast sums of its money to ensure access for those unable to pay. That’s the kind of model that many on the Left believe should exclusively provide health care — and FOCA would spell the end of the major provider already in that model.
Unfortunately, the Catholic Church didn’t spell this out explicitly enough earlier in the year, when it may have made some difference with parishioners. At least they are speaking out on it now. We have to push hard for a filibuster on FOCA, and hope we have enough Republican votes to sustain it.
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This is all new to me, so certainly long-time Catholics are better qualified than I am to comment. I have only recently begun reading the Catechism (I’m 63). The exhaustive argument, paragraph by paragraph, that “This is up; this is not up”, strikes me as irreducible, and I find great comfort in the notion that perhaps I’m not insane, after all.
On a social level, it seems clear to me, at least, that the teachings of the Second Vatican Council were intentionally and maliciously mis-interpreted via the enormous (and largely unacknowledged) Communist presence in Latin America. I’ll never forget seeing, a few years ago, international press coverage of Bolivian Indians, dressed in colorful ponchos and derby hats, protesting the government by chanting the traditional Indian incantation “The People United Will Never Be Defeated.” In an environment where propaganda of this depth goes unquestioned and unnoticed, it’s hardly surprising that the Church, as has been pointed out in this thread, was and is a primary target. With the influx of legal and illegal Spanish speakers into our country, a (temporary, in historical terms) dilution of clarity would seem almost inevitable.
The recent actions of the Bishops in condemning the Culture of Death are of course heartening to me, and exist as a much-needed corrective to the constant diet of moral equivalency fed to the nation via public media. Pope John Paul II’s life, and his dignity in the face of death, had a stunning effect on me; Pope Benedict has suggested that perhaps the Church is due to get smaller at this time as a needed purification. I would hope to have the courage to be included.
To someone like me, the lives and teachings of these two Popes represents an enormous personal challenge. I can only try to have faith that the moral authority of the truth will, in its own inexorable fashion, eventually defeat the unending leftist advocacy of chaos.
Patience is difficult, I must admit.
warbaby on November 12, 2008 at 12:08 PM
ThackerAgency at 12:02
You actually have to work at misunderstanding Ed’s post. Why wouldn’t the Catholic church close their health facilities if they were forced, by law, to perform abortions?
Vince on November 12, 2008 at 12:10 PM
I’m sooo glad we have Cardinal George here in Chi.
He spoke out loud and clear during the election about how with out life nothing else matters.
Last night at RCIA our decon mentioned that Cardinal george is helping draft the statement about FOCA.
We’re also home to Greeley and Phelger(sp) so it evens out.
annoyinglittletwerp on November 12, 2008 at 12:10 PM
For those of you not pleased with your own bishop… remember, you have been commanded to “bow will and intellect” to him in all matters of faith and morals… and that includes “social justice” and immigration issues as well as abortion.
The cafeteria is now closed.
:)
mankai on November 12, 2008 at 12:10 PM
jay12 on November 12, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Very sad. I guess I have been mistaken in my belief that the church would provide more guidence on these issues as they relate to our politicians.
The only “guidance” I have received this year was the result of a teacher’s inservice (I’m fortunate enough to teach part-time at a rural catholic school). A professor from the local catholic college was brought in as one of the speakers. In a nutshell, he said that we are not permitted, as catholics, to “pick and choose” which of the church’s teachings we wish to apply when choosing a candidate, or party to support. (This now seems contradictory in light of the Catholic’s bishop’s new position on the FOCA) According this speaker, all of God’s laws are to be applied with equal weight, and hence would be impossible to attributed to a specific political party. (i.e. Pro-Life means “all life”, and not just the unprotected of abortions, but death row inmates, enemy soilders, etc.) From this, I inferred that as a catholic I should not expect and guidance from my preist, bishop, etc.
I was somewhat dissapointed by his message. But, I guess in that regards, it was better than being called a racist by my preist!
Goody2Shoes on November 12, 2008 at 12:10 PM
“A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself or herself for Holy Communion, if he or she were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”
So, if an Catholic Obama voter liked his positions on immigration, taxation, “social justice,” etc… he’s off the hook… until it changes again…
mankai on November 12, 2008 at 12:13 PM
Goody,
That “professor” from the local Catholic college is an idiot and is not a Catholic.
Vince on November 12, 2008 at 12:16 PM
No, because they aren’t “proportionate reasons.”
CDeb on November 12, 2008 at 12:21 PM
Apathy and poor catechesis. I think converts like you, as well as Scott Hahn and people like that are really breathing life into the Church at a time when most “cradle Catholics” don’t care about their faith. They don’t take the time to learn their faith and thus miss out on the beauty and greatness of it. Most are content to just go to Church on Sunday (if that often) and then they’ve done their Christian duty for the week. My old roommmate put it well: When a person lives according to one reality one day of the week, and a completely different reality the other six, isn’t that usually called a mental disorder?
Converts “get it”, though, because they take their spiritual life seriously and have come to the Church after a lot of prayer and study. I think most “lapsed” Catholics fail to see what Christianity means to them. If people understood that they were beloved by God, that they were children of God, and they were the body of Christ, if they understood those things for what they truly mean rather than just some on-the-surface “ooh that makes me feel warm and fuzzy” feeling, they would see that it’s an earth-shattering truth. It can’t be just a part of our lives, just one hour out of our week. It has to be the core of our lives.
VanPalin on November 12, 2008 at 12:23 PM
What “proportionate reasons” could the Pope have been referring to in the 2004 election when he made that decree? Opposition to the Iraq War? If there were no such “reasons” why would he even bother to offer the condition?
mankai on November 12, 2008 at 12:26 PM
God may be working on this as we speak.
I know I’m going to Hell for that, God forgive me.
Kensington on November 12, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Religion, especially the Catholic religion, has been so instrumental in founding and staffing hospitals. There’s a technical component, which they do, but also a personal, caring component, which is the heart of religion, and no less important than care of the body. Let there be gratitude for the Christian and Jewish role in hospitals we and our loved ones and friends and neighbors must go to every day.
Paul-Cincy on November 12, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Vince,
I certainly can say his message was not what I, nor my colleagues expected.
Goody2Shoes on November 12, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Ultimately liberals want to freedom to allow any abortions at any time, right up to 26 weeks.
Post partum.
FOCA them.
drjohn on November 12, 2008 at 12:46 PM
A bit of paradox to sharpen the mind:
President-elect says opponents try to make selfishness a virtue, proceeds to ram through radical abortion measures which make selfishness a sacrament.
jeff_from_mpls on November 12, 2008 at 12:52 PM
I am not Catholic, but I do admire this stand for right. Well, I don’t think I’m Catholic. Seems these days I am agreeing with the Catholic Church more often than not.
MikeA on November 12, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Paul-Cincy on November 12, 2008 at 12:56 PM
All you Catholics had better shut your mouth and keep your head low. Obama has a special Gulag in Barstow so you can get your thinking right for the new order.
“We will
socializenationalize your business, Thats what this liberal is all about.” regards to B. BoxerKuffar on November 12, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Isn’t it the OTHER side who accuses someone speaking the truth as being a bigot ???
pambi on November 12, 2008 at 1:11 PM
“To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.” –Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545
I imagine it’s even more applicable when it’s the propagation of acts which are deemed abhorrent.
atheling on November 12, 2008 at 1:15 PM
There’s a petition out there against FOCA. I suggest we all sign it.
CarpeFishem on November 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM
One obvious example is that the only alternative candidate is also pro-choice but in addition believes in the legalization of drugs or euthenasia. In that case, the lesser of two evils would be the candidate who is pro-choice but against such legalization. Another common example is two pro-choice candidates one of whom supports some level of abortion restrictions. In theory, it is possible that there be an issue that trumps the pro-life cause, but it would have to be something causing destruction of life to the level of 4000 people every day. That’s a big hurdle of evil to overcome.
gl_thecatholic on November 12, 2008 at 1:24 PM
If Gov Patterson gets his way, Catholic Hospitals may be closing in NY. But what’s even more insidious is the plan to force Catholic institutions who provide health insurance to cover abortion as part of the insurance package.
Think of the implications that has.
To libs, freedom of religion only applies to the religion of The One.
I finally got around to watching Ben Stein’s Expelled. What I found very interesting was the links between Darwinists, modern liberal thought, and the Culture of Death.
Iblis on November 12, 2008 at 1:30 PM
Catholic hospitals could just close their OB/Gyn departments and still provide other services to their communitities. Of course that would impact thir clients but it wouldn’t put actual practicing Catholics in jeopardy of being forced to perform abortions.
katiejane on November 12, 2008 at 1:47 PM
The Obamanation will use this as an excuse to
confisticateuse eminent domain to federalize all Catholic Church property in the US. Just like their fellow Marxists did in the USSR. Get ready. Buy more ammo.bill30097 on November 12, 2008 at 1:51 PM
That would not be enough for the Obamanation. Any hospital that refused a woman an abortion would be in violation of the law regardless of what “departments” the hospital has.
bill30097 on November 12, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Why doesn’t Barry just demand they change the tenets of their religion? I’m sure he thinks he is entitled to…
Vashta.Nerada on November 12, 2008 at 1:56 PM
That’s exactly what this plan is. BHO’s essentially telling the Catholic Church that it is no longer allowed to be Cathohlic.
To the left, the First Amendment does not guarantee freedom of religion, only freedom from it.
CDeb on November 12, 2008 at 2:03 PM
If health care is a right, then someone must be forced to provide it.
whitetop on November 12, 2008 at 2:15 PM
Not so “obvious.” The directive was given specifically to American voters (via the bishops) in July 2004. Was there a pro-Life Democrat running for the nomination? You may be referencing other (lower office) elections, but that is not the sense of the decree.
And if the only scenario whereby this decree would be relevant to US voters is having only two varying degree Pro-Choice candidates, why not simply say so? And this does not solve the problem of the definition of “cooperation with evil” which has two levels. ANY Pro-Choice candidate would qualify. That would mean that the only choice would be vote third party, write-in, or don’t vote.
The bar was moved this year to threaten the eternal fate of any Catholic who voted for Obama.
As with most decrees, the wording is purposefully vague so it may be redefined at any time.
mankai on November 12, 2008 at 2:16 PM
“[It is sin to believe] that the Catholic Church should not be the religion of the state to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.”
“We hear that you forbid torture as contrary to the laws of your land; but no state can over-ride Canon Law. Our Law. Therefore, I command you at once to submit these men to torture… You have already imperiled your soul as a favorer of heretics.”
mankai on November 12, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Not only do liberals want an abortion free for all, they want to ensure that anyone who wishes not to participate in the taking of innocent human life is required to. They don’t want to stop at a “woman’s choice”, they demand that we have a hand in it. Next, they will deny babies who they deem should have been aborted healthcare. There are enough pathetic people in the world who would not flinch at picking through a suction bottle to make sure all the arms, legs, the head and the torso have been gotten, why do they want more.
bloggless on November 12, 2008 at 2:21 PM
Our Bishop says that there are two issues which are so egregious that there is no room for debate. They are ABORTION and EUTHANASIA. Other issues within the church can be open for debate. So, why then, do the Pelosis, Kennedys, Bidens, Kerrys get to publicly support and vote for Abortion? Where is my Church in allowing this to continue?
bloggless on November 12, 2008 at 2:25 PM
Thanks, have passed this around.
pambi on November 12, 2008 at 2:30 PM
I hope they do close down the hospitals…it’ll be nice to have them take a firm stand.
its time liberalism’s chickens come home to roost!!
right4life on November 12, 2008 at 2:31 PM
The Catholic Church has to get out of bed with the Left. Unfortunately, its doctrine supports leftist doctrine on so many issues like:
war
labor unions
death penalty
welfare
capitalism
The abortion issue is the only one that puts them at odds with the Left. So they try to work around it.
keep the change on November 12, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Up until this year, the Church kept its dealings with pro-abortion pols private. It wasn’t until Pelosi and Rudy recieved communion from the Pope that we heard that their Bishops had asked them not to present themselves for communion. Then Pelosi decided to annoint herself Doctor of the Church, and proclaim her muddled thinking as Church Doctrine.
Iblis on November 12, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Iblis on November 12, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot about Rudy. Now there’s a practicing Catholic if ever there was one.
bloggless on November 12, 2008 at 2:44 PM
Was searching this for someone else, so thought I’d add it here, while I have it handy …
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/08/24/pelosi-lies-about-catholicism-and-abortion/
pambi on November 12, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Auxiliary Bishop Thomas Paprocki of Chicago spoke up about the threats to Catholic health care under the bill.
“It could mean discontinuing obstetrics in our hospitals, and we may need to consider taking the drastic step of closing our Catholic hospitals entirely,” Paprocki said. “It would not be sufficient to withdraw our sponsorship or to sell them to someone who would perform abortions. That would be a morally unacceptable cooperation in evil.”
“I do not think I’m being alarmist in considering such drastic steps,” he said. “We need to respond in a morally appropriate, responsible fashion.”
It looks like the real initial plan is to simply stop doing OB/GYN services.
jim m on November 12, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Unfortunately, the RCC should follow through on this threat as the Church’s mission on earth needs to put the souls of its faithful before good acts for the needy. However, shutting down RCC hospitals is exactly what Obama wants to see happen — yet another excuse to expand the federal government and increase the dependency of citizens on his administration.
Y-not on November 12, 2008 at 3:04 PM
Shutting down a hospital (rather than simply not providing some services) is not a proportionate response to FOCA. It’s the act of a bully in taking its toys and going home when it doesn’t get its way.
It will just demonstrate that the Catholic Church is like the Mafia (another Italian-born organization) when it doesn’t get what it wants.
jim m on November 12, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Wow, never thought I’d find a bunch of Catholic-hating in this article… /sarcasm off
Seriously though, I currently work for a Catholic hospital organization and the organizational ethics run strong throughout the staff.
I find it interesting that the Catholic Church would threaten to close these hospitals since they could easily remove any woman services (OB/GYNs, midwives, etc) from the staff and refer women who want abortions to other hospitals and clinics. Even non-Catholic hospitals have worked to push abortions to either quiet little clinics far away from their main site or referrals to non-owned clinics due to the bad PR and the obvious security issues. I equate their statement largely to bluster to ensure that it gets the attention that they think it deserves, rightly so.
The organization I work for has the mission to serve the poor and ensure that everyone, no matter their background, gets quality care. Closing their doors will violate the very principles running this organization.
Ironic that the “freedom of choice act” removes choice from the OB/GYN’s that work in hospitals as to whether they will provide abortions or not.
webproze on November 12, 2008 at 3:24 PM
Rather idiotic statement, if ever there is one.
This is a matter of conscience. If idiots like the above-quoted does not understand that, then this country is gravely imperiled. The Church teaches that abortion is the wilful murder of an innocent human being. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. And for the State to force its position on that which violates the conscience of a man or the Church is EVIL.
Only a moral imbecile can fail to comprehend what this means.
atheling on November 12, 2008 at 3:26 PM
BTW, the State is also attempting to force Catholic hospitals to perform sex change operations on transsexual wannabes.
Shut down the entire operation. This country will get what it deserves.
atheling on November 12, 2008 at 3:28 PM
Oh, please. We are all just trembling at the thought that the Catholic Church is going to take over America. Your quote is just so contemporary and relevant. You would be right at home with all bigots who objected to JFK’s being president. Are you forced to attend Mass? Are you forced to belong to the Catholic Church? In fact, the RCC is probably the least influential it has ever been since the inception of our nation, witness the growing acceptance of abortion and gay marriage, two issues on which the Church’s positions are very clear.
The Catholic Church is right to refuse to offer health services if forced to act against the tenets of her faith. Boston Catholic Charities stopped offering adoption services in order to avoid being forced to place children in homosexual homes. The unfortunate thing about these actions is that they contribute to the larger movement to marginalize and suppress all Christian influence in our society.
inmypajamas on November 12, 2008 at 3:30 PM
Not much respect shown to your fellow Americans there Mr. M. I’m a Catholic and my grandfather was a Godfather so I have a link to both organizations. Trust me, no moral similarity.
I’m thankful that the bishops have finally stood up for the obvious. America has murdered 40,000,000 of it’s own children. Every one of these abortions was a mortal sin for all who willingly participated. There’s no room for any other interpretation in Catholic doctrine. So big Jim what would you do if you were a bishop? Just send a letter and go about your day?
I hope the bishops ratchet it up a few more notches. If Obama and the phony Catholics in the Democrat Party want to play chicken over health care I’m all for it. Our adversaries show us no respect. They constantly shove their perversions in our face and object to any argument against their position as narrow-minded and mean. The Church shows them more respect than they deserve.
God willing all Christians will be fighting this cultural sickness ever more loudly and forcefully. We’re doing it for your good Jim. The 40,000,000 live and are before Our Lord seeking justice. America will not survive unless it returns to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for our Innocents.
rcl on November 12, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Aah, atheling, how is the Catholic Church being forced to act against the tenants of its faith if it simply stops providing OB/GYN services? It is a disproportionate response and would appear to be against its other tenants to provide services to the poor. And stop the name calling. You’re using it as a way to avoid my point.
P.S. I understand that the Catholic hospitals are run on the principle of “not-for-profit” which is different than saying that they don’t make a profit. But does anyone have an idea if they actually make money? Because if they don’t make money and do follow through on their bigger threat, wouldn’t the US government be able to pay nothing to take them by eminent domain?
jim m on November 12, 2008 at 3:38 PM
rci, you’re not doing it for my good. You’re doing it for what you believe is your good. I left the Catholic Church 20 years ago because I disagreed with it.
If your grandfather really was a Godfather (which I doubt), then I’d also suggest you also not publicly admit it in writing for your own good.
jim m on November 12, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Its interesting that Alan Keyes is Catholic and He stated in His campaign to run for President in 2008 that he would use the Executive Order to STOP all Abortions immediately after taking His oath of office January 20th. He didnt say “maybe” or hohum around it… He would do it within the first FIVE MINUTES after taking the Oath of Office! I believe BO is threating to use the same powers of the Office but not for such noble a cause. His preference on this issue is NO to Life..1) in the womb 2) on the way out of the womb ie Partial Birth Abortion. And then of course 3) A final NO to the Babies that survive the Horror.. Not to be given a Physician who will attend to it Seperate from the Abortionist, whos Job it was to Murder that child from the onset. President Elect BO was quoted as saying “doing that would Undermine the wishes of the Mother” Its good to see God always gives us choices to do the Right thing…Thankyou, President Reagan for having chose such a Godly Man in your administration…Ambassodor Keyes continues to fight the Good and Honorable Fight.. that of God’s Word that our Foundng Fathers brought with them. Deut 30:16
BeardedLady on November 12, 2008 at 3:44 PM
I think there are greater implications for the intellectual heavyweight voters here in PA. Even if Catholic hospitals opted to close OB/Gyn units only there are very few hospitals that haven’t closed those units already. PA malpractice for OB/gyn has seen to it that it is so risky to deliver babies that hospitals have had no option but to shut those units.
My sister is a delivery room nurse at a Catholic hospital that is one of the few hospitals willing to take the risks associated with those services. Closing that hospital would leave people with such minimal options it would truly be a major problem.
Catholic hospitals as with other hospitals that make money channel that into a separate corp usually a building fund. I can’t see how the US government would have any ability to take over the hospitals. Can they force hospitals to open OB/gyn units when hospitals have already found them to be a huge liability? Even if they could what doctors would staff them? All the OB/gyns are leaving PA or opting to drop the OB portion of their practice.
msmveritas on November 12, 2008 at 4:03 PM
Does any not for profit make a profit? Catholic Hospitals are run the same way a university is run. Donations are made by private individuals to an endowment which is then invested in the market to produce a yield to fund the services the Hospital provides. They still charge for services that insurance companies predominantly cover. When you don’t have the money they either refer you to a public hospital or they help you with financing and/or donations and grants.
None of this changes the fact that abortion is an elective procedure. As are birth control and other prophylactics.
gabriel sutherland on November 12, 2008 at 4:33 PM
The question is a simple one. Should a group which is morally opposed to a policy, or procedure, be required to do it? For Liberals, on Abortion, you bet they should under penalty of serious prison time.
For Liberals, on the Death Penalty, no way should a Doctor be required to perform that procedure. If the Doctor has understandable moral objections, we must respect those objections.
In fact, there was a move not too long ago to remove any Doctor who performed the Execution of a convicted criminal in accordance with the law, from the medical establishment. In other words, canceling his license.
So again, hypocrisy from the left, why are we surprised?
The Catholics will shut down a large number of services, or even the entire hospital system instead of doing what they believe to be wrong.
Before you liberals begin to ask how I can support the Death Penalty, what crime was the unborn child guilty of? What crime was he or she convicted of? When did a Jury of his peers convict him? Where was the individual review of the case and it’s evidence by successive layers of judicial oversight? Ah, the ten to twenty year review would be satisfactory, wouldn’t you agree? That way, if the Court upholds the conviction, we could retroactively abort the fifteen year old fetus right?
Snake307 on November 12, 2008 at 4:34 PM
OK, hear me out. I don’t think we should fight this, I think FOCA should pass FOR NOW ONLY (we can overturn it later) and let the catholic church CLOSE all those hospitals. The people who will suffer the consequences are largely the people who voted for BO who get care from catholic hospitals. It is time for them to learn a very HARD lesson. After this election, I realized republicans are cowards, they need to be more crafty, like the dems. Time to make sure BO is a huge failure. Unlike HAnnity, I do not wish BO any success. I think we need to hound him and ensure his defeat and failure as a president. Republicans need to get off their wimp, coward, let’s get along and help out dems platform and fight every single inch, just like the dems did. I recall when dems were out of power, they always badgered republicans, no matter what question was actually asked of them. They even lied, and when the lie was not confronted by the wimpy rinos, people saw it as truth. we need to attack every step of the way, NONSTOP, (not lie) and always circle the wagons when a republican is in trouble, just like the dems do. Enough of the stupid thinking that if we look nice, conciliatory and ready to throw any republican under the bus for any reason, people will like us and vote for us. That i not working. Time to be clever like snakes (that is what Jesus told his apostles, though he added and meek like doves).
immigrantchick on November 12, 2008 at 4:39 PM
Sorry but they voted for Obama in the mid fifty percentile and they didn’t campaign against the dems and their WCC is heavily liberal. As a catholic, they get what they paid for.
eaglewingz08 on November 12, 2008 at 4:49 PM
FYI: How many progressive do you stayed home on election day in 2004 because they expected their peers to elect Kerry?
The next day, they didn’t unplug from the system and wait to be arrested. They took action. They organized. They embraced technology.
They just won because they acted, irrationally as they did. Not because they sat at home and waited for the orange jumpsuit to find them.
gabriel sutherland on November 12, 2008 at 4:50 PM
Let me get this straight I thought the country voted in the new Messiah when Obama won the Presidency. If thats the case the Bishops better hope Obama allows them to have their churches unless they can allow their flock to worship him. Obama is opposed to abortion even though he would not want his daughters to be penalized with a kid and the fact that he has voed for it every time it has come up. Lets face it abortion is here to stay and the church lost its credibility on this subject many decades ago and will never get it back. We as a country have lost our soul and the Bishops can scream from now until Doomsday but we will never be a moral country again.
Irvin88 on November 12, 2008 at 5:18 PM
Of course the bishops are serious about closing the hospitals or at least every service that could be compromised in any way in the support of abortion. If they did not do this than the Catholic church in the USA would cease to exist, they have no option.
With respect to the anger directed to the Catholic Church because more than 50% of supposed “Catholics” voted for Obama, it has been pointed out here many times before that 50% of people who identify themselves as Catholics are not actually catholic, they do not go to church or practice the religion, they call themselves catholic for social, cultural and ethnic reasons not because it is their religion.
I don’t know what people expect the church to do. Install some surveillance device on everyone who calls themselves catholic and monitor if they go to church and who they vote for? and if they voted for Obama make every priest in the country memorize their faces and keep them from coming into the church?
All the church and the bishops can do is to continue to speak the truth. Yes, some of them could do a better job dealing with people who bring scandal into the faith through their open support of abortion. No action is required in many of these cases because these people are automatically excommunicated but I concede that the bishops could make more forceful public statements as well as discipline priests who are teaching error and heresy. My point is that we cannot completely blame the church for he actions of people who call themselves Catholics and over whom the church has no recourse.
neuquenguy on November 12, 2008 at 5:44 PM
Closing hospitals would the catholic version of “going John Galt”, I guess.
pussum207 on November 12, 2008 at 6:01 PM
Maybe that is true in your church, but at my Catholic Church our Priest consistantly preached on the associated evil of voting for someone who supported abortion, and he did this prior to the election.
He also commended my bringing in lawn signs advising people to vote against the local abortion issue on our ballot.
No one can blame my church for Obama getting elected.
DannoJyd on November 12, 2008 at 6:08 PM
The Catholic Church used to make Protestants who married Catholics agree in writing to raise their children Catholic if they wanted to get married in a Catholic church. The Catholic Church also, I understand, requires written commitement on some things from anyone wanting to send their children to Catholic schools.
So why couldn’t the Catholic church require people receiving communion to confirm in writing that they didn’t vote for Obama?
jim m on November 12, 2008 at 6:32 PM
Sorry to read where this didn’t come from the pope.
A lot of so called Christians get real upset when “The Church” actually comes out (once in a while) and reminds them all of what it is to be a Christian. For those of us who are this is not something we agonize over. Abortion for any reason is wrong in our faith. Period. Therefore, to uphold our faith in God’s eyes (not yours) we can not support anything that allows it to exist or, help it to continue. If you don’t like that and then naively think you can believe in everything else that is Christian but the anti-abortion stance and still call yourself a Christian, you are fooling yourself. It is a tough choice for some, not so tough for others but it is what it is. No abortionists are welcome in the Christian church. Any church practicing this type of belief structure in my opinion is simply selling “Entertainment Theology”. And as we all know, this type of “worship” has been on the rise. The difference here is that the “worship” is of themselves not God. I am sure they have “way more” fun than I do.
What is odd for me (being continually amazed of the brazen) is to have someone of this nature then say WE are unfair and WE are the bigots!!? If you really believe this then just go to that other form of religion that enables you to believe in and support all those beliefs that the Christian church does not. It’s ok, just go. You can, its all right with us. No judgment of this decision shall come from a TRUE Christian for we are sinners. We are not in the business of saving everyone no matter what you have heard. We can only show you the words which we try to live by every day in the belief they will help and guide you. These people in their new modern worship can actually accomplish some good things once in awhile just like we do – once in awhile. But they are not Christian. Abortion for us is killing and never will be one of the “good things”. And by the way: its NOT OK for any member of the Catholic Church to overlook this fact or the many others listed here in other responses that seem to be briefly ignored from time to time. Yes, NOT EVEN THE POPE. There are no reasons acceptable in the mind of God.
Another thing that will help out the non-Catholics when thinking about Catholic doctrine is that the Catholic church considers itself as: The Church. The Church has no boundaries. Therefore, the Catholic Church does not consider sovereignty when it makes its rulings and decisions. In the case of illegal immigration The Church just sees worshipers of the faith, the fact that they crossed over into a sovereign nation is irrelevant for them.
It is not supposed to be easy. There will be no bail outs here.
redriver59 on November 12, 2008 at 6:32 PM
“Another thing that will help out the non-Catholics when thinking about Catholic doctrine is that the Catholic church considers itself as: The Church. The Church has no boundaries. Therefore, the Catholic Church does not consider sovereignty when it makes its rulings and decisions. In the case of illegal immigration The Church just sees worshipers of the faith, the fact that they crossed over into a sovereign nation is irrelevant for them.”
Yeah, that helps us non-Catholics alot. It helps us to remember why the Catholic Church and the pope are arrogant pieces of sh*t and why its difficult to believe that any intelligent person could still remain a member of the Catholic church.
jim m on November 12, 2008 at 6:35 PM
And just to be clear: It’s really great that the Catholic Church considers Protestants to be illegal immigrants.
jim m on November 12, 2008 at 6:37 PM
jim m:
Sounds like you’re the arrogant piece of s***.
Grow up.
atheling on November 12, 2008 at 6:42 PM
Ed,
I’m curious why you are so worried about people overstating or misstating the threat that an Obama administration poses (warning us to “calm down”), but you never seem to step in when the anti-Catholic and anti-Mormon trolls take over threads with patently untrue and vicious statements.
Y-not on November 12, 2008 at 7:01 PM
Yeah, a church that considers Protestants to be illegal immigrants really deserves the support and respect of non-Catholics…. Deal with it, atheling (I assume that, by your soveriegnity crack, you meant that the Catholic church considers all other Christians to be illegal immigrants).
jim m on November 12, 2008 at 7:08 PM
Uuh, Y-not, can you point out anything that anyone wrote here about the Catholic church that isn’t true?
jim m on November 12, 2008 at 7:11 PM
I’m surprised you took this to be a specific reference to you. Do you think your posts are untrue or just vicious?
In any event, since you asked. There’s no excuse for stating Church teaching without providing links at The Holy See to substantiate those positions. The Mormons and Catholics at Hot Air have had to put up with a lot of vitriolic rants about our churches that are rarely based on facts, but usually based on some hang up the posters have about our religions.
Y-not on November 12, 2008 at 7:31 PM
Thank you, having been a Catechist for many years I know there are far too many logical fallacies to address in jim m’s arguments than could reasonably be covered here. Bottom line, the Church has no obligation to keep hospitals open when they would be forced by the government to act in ways virulent opposed to the teachings of the Church. If Jim doesn’t like Catholics or the Church nobody is forcing him to be a member so what’s the problem?
msmveritas on November 12, 2008 at 7:44 PM
Although there is a downside to the Church closing its hospitals in the U.S., should they decide to do so I think it may be for the best. The Catholic Church in the U.S. has lost its focus and many of its priests, brothers, and nuns have forgotten that their primary role is to serve the spiritual lives of its members, not act as social workers.
Y-not on November 12, 2008 at 7:54 PM
Vicious, perhaps, but not untrue.
I’ve never argued that the Catholic church should keep their hospitals open, but I have argued that the Catholic Church is being dishonest and acting like a spoiled child if it could simply stop providing OB/GYN services instead.
So, Y-not and msmveritas, does the Catholic Church consider Protestants to be the equivalent of illegal immigrants, or not? Or was the person who wrote that wrong?
jim m on November 12, 2008 at 8:26 PM
Ed, Alah,
Are there any other religions or ethnic groups open season for bashing here at HotAir or only Catholics?
neuquenguy on November 12, 2008 at 8:42 PM
For the record:
Catholic Health Care – U.S. (through 2007)
* Hospitals: 557 Catholic hospitals treated 83,795,186 patients
* Other Health Care Centers: 417 centers treated 7,271,716 patients
diogenes on November 12, 2008 at 8:45 PM
I don’t have the first clue where you are getting this information. You sound a bit deluded by your own opinions.
msmveritas on November 12, 2008 at 8:54 PM
This reminds me of one of our priests in our parish who a couple of months ago, discussing the need for the faithful to frequent the sacraments, specially the Eucharist and Reconciliation said “I did not became a priest to be a glorified social worker but to help you save your souls”.
This is why the Catholic Church WILL close the hospitals if it is forced to provide or refer abortions.
neuquenguy on November 12, 2008 at 8:55 PM
What would Obama do if the unborn were called Jews instead of the unborn?
ericdijon on November 12, 2008 at 9:42 PM
I felt as though my parish carried the message from the diocese well. Though I am in PA, my suburban Philly district went for McCain. I don’t know the breakdown of Catholics in my district voting for each candidate but I do know some active parishioners who voted Obama. One person actively campaigned for Obama. This person would have so much difficulty rationalizing this vote when they discover the implications of this act. The removal of parental notification is one aspect that I will enjoy hearing a justification for, especially from this person.
In the case I mentioned I am sure this person listened but could not hear. The only way to open closed minds is to show the consequences which would certainly be felt with the closing of our Catholic hospitals. I don’t know that I completely believe that Obama is going to try and push this right away. This would lose so many seats in 2010 when the reality sets in. Parents of my generation have been called hypercontrolling, I find it hard to believe any would take removal of notification sitting down. The Church taking this drastic stand might serve to stave this off but heaven help us if Obama gets a 2nd term. If he does this early though, he’s done it’s political suicide.
msmveritas on November 12, 2008 at 9:43 PM
Catholic Charities in Boston had been helping to provide Catholic Homes for newborn babies for over 100 years. Of course the gays had to sue them so that they could be seviced there also. They shut their doors to doing adoptions after all those years. The gays have one agenda and caring for kids are at the bottom of their agenda.
tessa on November 12, 2008 at 10:08 PM
The Mormons take it on the chin pretty frequently, too. Actually, I’d say those attacks are even worse as they are usually accused of devil-worship.
I don’t bother engaging the Catholic bashers any longer as they are always based on false information which the posters could easily confirm if they bothered to go either the Vatican or U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops websites. If someone is too lazy to provide links to back up their claims, I don’t bother engaging them.
When I lived in the South I knew there was a lot of hatred and resentment towards the Catholic Church, but I never appreciated how deeply it ran and how ignorant these folks were until I started reading Hot Air. And the hatred directed at the Mormons has been a complete shock to me. Every Mormon I’ve ever known has been a model citizen — really great families and terrific colleagues at work.
Y-not on November 12, 2008 at 10:39 PM
Nope. It’s “going Saint Peter,” actually.
newton on November 12, 2008 at 11:04 PM
Thank you, Lord for strengthening the spines of these bishops!
atemely on November 12, 2008 at 11:08 PM
It’s amazing how some forms a bigotry seem perfectly acceptable while there is zero tolerance for others.
Nothing new, It just seems that Ed is a lot more concerned about Obama being slightly insulted than the Pope, the Catholic Church or fellow Catholics here at HA being hatefully bashed and denigrated.
Kind of like Republican leaders who go out of the way to be nice to democrats while those same democrats are slandering fellow republicans, including their constituents and their country.
neuquenguy on November 12, 2008 at 11:13 PM
This should have been obvious to anyone with a brain. Hell my brother actually called WMAL and told Chris Core this is exactly what would happen when FOCA first got started a few years ago.
Frankly lets pass it, and watch the Catholic Church start to limit their services because of it. After all the loss of 1000 established hospitals/clinics should not effect health care much in the US.
/sarc
In small city like Portland Maine and its greater living area (pop 100k) We had 2 hospitals, Maine Med and Mercy Hospital.
Mercy was run by the Catholic Church and had a special ward called “the birthplace” for expectant mothers. Quite a few nieces and nephews were born there.
That said that if FOCA passes Mercy will close.
Chances are if your local hospital name sounds religious then it is run by the Catholic Church if FOCA passes then you can expect that hospital to shutdown.
Agree or disagree about abortion the Catholic Church will never be an accessory to murder no matter what the outcome.
F15Mech on November 13, 2008 at 2:10 AM
A part of me almost wishes Obama would step up the confrontation. As we found in the Concentration Campls of World War II, there’s nothing like Catholic Martyrs to shake things up.
Me too. I skipped this thread last night (or earlier) and came back to it now, but it’s made me depressed. Almost everything else I can rationalise, but not this.
*********
Thacker, I’m not a Catholic but I still wonder how you can say that the CC is forcing anything? It’s Obama who is forcing abortion down everybody’s throats. I thought it was supposed to be “pro-choice”? That implies you get to choose whether you want anything to do with it or not.
And you may not care but there are some of us who live in remote areas who will be in for it if this Obama brand of choice is instituted. We have a lot of bush villages that rely on the Catholic hospital here, as well as many people in the larger metro area. There’s a growing doctor’s organisation that aims to help cancer patients whose insurance maxed out or who don’t have insurance, an enormous children’s hospital and numerous clinics on campus.
He isn’t just making it available, he is (as I said) shoving it down our throats. Why should we and our children be punished and made to pay for other people’s abortions?
fireweednectar on November 13, 2008 at 6:11 AM
If the Catholic hospitals close their obstetrics units, then the liberals will just make it mandatory that they keep them open. Don’t you people get it? It’s their way or no way.
bloggless on November 13, 2008 at 7:33 AM
It’s been awhile since I’ve been able to say this, but go bishops!!! This involves more than just abortion but the very freedoms the First Amendment is supposed to protect. NO religious institution should be forced to support that which they believe to be morally evil.
JohnAGJ on November 13, 2008 at 9:47 AM
Ed, I appreciate your blogging on Catholic issues. For some reason I’m finding no coverage on any of the other Catholic blogs I read.
I took the time to read some of the links and they’re leaving some unanswered questions. Someone early on linked to a site where you can read the actual language of the FOCA (here.)
The language of the act seems to apply only to government agencies. I know that accepting government money makes this type of law apply to these hospitals (assuming as I do that they accept some government funds) but I’m wondering what percentage of their funding comes from the government.
Any idea? My thinking was an alternative might be to decline the funding and appeal to the faithful to make it up or simply scale back operations as necessary so the church could continue to supply health service to people that need it without taking the drastic step of closing these facilities that service people, many who have little in the way of alternatives.
The other thing that’s not clear to me is what percentage of hospitals in the US could be affected by this decision (I saw the absolute numbers, but have no idea what we’re talking about as a percentage of available hospitals nationwide). Do we have any idea what the impact would be to the overall supply of health care if FOCA passed and the Bishops made good on this threat?
I’d appreciate you helping to keep this issue front and center. Forcing Catholic hospitals to perform abortions against their most sacred foundation beliefs isn’t striking me as transcending politics.
Dwilkers on November 13, 2008 at 10:38 AM
Good for the Catholics. It seems that a storm is coming. People are going to be forced to choose what they believe. I find it interesting that it is the LDS church and now the Catholics that are starting to go through purging. The LDS church is right now the tip of the spear on the Homosexuality issues, and we can see what is happening there: with increasing persecution, people are having to make a choice to either side with their church or with the popular culture. Because there are now organizing efforts to punish Mormons as a group and individually, along with others, for bucking the liberal/gay agendas. And it’s not limited to just LDS: several hispanic, non-LDS women were beaten at an LDS temple by gay protestors because they dared to remove insulting signs on the fence around the property. Vandalism is soaring, etc etc.
The Catholic church is next. Except this time on abortion. I expect a great purge of Catholics–sometime soon, being a “cultural Catholic” won’t be allowed anymore. And I expect some rather severe persecution soon for Catholics, Mormons, and any other Christian religion that actually will stand up for morality. It’s already happening–but soon it will become more violent.
Vanceone on November 13, 2008 at 12:39 PM
My comment was related to Ratzinger’s (papal-approved) decree in July of 2004 which stated that a RC could vote for a Pro-Choice candidate if he determined that there were “other issues” upon which he based his decision.
It was vague (as these things often are) so the definitions and the bar can be changed when needed.
The Catholic Church recognizes no other “church” so I can’t help you there either. :)
mankai on November 13, 2008 at 1:26 PM
If you come to an agreement with evil, you get more evil.
I wouldn’t blame the Catholic church if they shut their hospitals down. I realize that this could cause other deaths in relation.
So there is no winning here. But principles are very important.
If you make a deal with the devil (abortion) you will eventually end up losing your entire soul.
Someone MUST set a precedent here.
Badger40 on November 13, 2008 at 2:15 PM
Christians have built and maintained hospitals across our nation and if they need to be closed, I will support that decision. Other agencies are available to those who demand services contrary to Christian beliefs. It is time that we stand together whether Roman Catholic or not. The left demands tolerance and we can do no less than demand tolerance of our beliefs.
Let us pray that the Holy Spirit will move Obama in directions he never expected. God will not be mocked. Prayer can move mountains and this Obama Mtn is a good place to start
Pat in NC on November 13, 2008 at 2:57 PM
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