The McCotter Challenge: Why is there a Republican Party?
posted at 5:35 pm on November 5, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Rep. Thaddeus McCotter asks and answers the question in a post-election essay that should be must reading for all Republicans this week. Jeff Flake gave us a road map for the GOP to find its way to a unifying, resonant message, but McCotter aims to recover the lost GOP soul. He argues that we have hit Republican Rock Bottom, and that the time has come to build anew:
Dead is the self-indulgent imbecility of “re-branding” — as if the Republican Party was a corporate product to be repackaged, not a transformational political movement to be led. Despite what the media will tell you, and what so-called “conservative leaders” will discuss ad nauseam during “secret” meetings, this situation is not a crisis. It is an opportunity. Today, we are as the Great Emancipator proclaimed during another time of national trial: unbound by the tired dogmas of the past; and free to think and act anew.
First, we must not mindlessly mimic the momentarily triumphant Left. Sleek, detached, media savvy non-entities posing as existentially anguished leaders are neither in our nature nor our future. We are not teeny-bopper, pop-star politicians or the ideological dinosaurs of wealth redistribution.
At heart, we Republicans are flesh and blood and backbone, the proud servants of people. If we re-orient our vision, renew our purpose, and reaffirm our principles, the times will demand us — not as we were, but as we must be!
McCotter demands a return to First Principles, as did Flak, and he calls them the “enduring principles” of the Republican Party:
1. Our liberty is from God not the government.
2. Our sovereignty rests in our souls not the soil.
3. Our security is through strength not surrender.
4. Our prosperity is from the private sector not the public sector.
5. Our truths are self-evident not relative.
Where Flake is more pragmatic, McCotter is more philosophical, but the two are singing in harmony today. We need to focus on these principles and apply them to all our policy positions. We cannot be taken seriously as a small-government, private-sector movement if we back ever-expanding bailouts or if we pursue pork-barrel politics.
In the wake of this loss, the Republican leadership in Congress will certainly need to change in order to demonstrate leadership on these principles. McCotter and Flake should be part of any new Republican leadership.
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I can agree with that.
Hawthorne on November 5, 2008 at 6:35 PM
@ Blacklake on November 5, 2008 at 6:35 PM
You said it perfectly. Until that happens, our party is doomed.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 6:37 PM
Never left? I guess their car just broke down on the way to the polls, and that’s why McCain’s turnout was millions short of President Bush’s 04 election results.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 6:37 PM
@ DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 6:37 PM
But I thought Palin was going to deliver them for us? Oh thats right, we NEVER should have relied only on the religious right for a win in this election, we should appeal to Americans as conservatives, with sound fiscal policies and a clear SIMPLE goal.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 6:38 PM
rock on mccotter!
Fozzy Bear on November 5, 2008 at 6:40 PM
There are several possible ways forward
1. change our positions to bring in more people
2. better candidates
3. shift voter thinking
Choosing (1) to focus even more on the voters that we already have will accomplish nothing. It is pretty evident that McCain and Bush can’t do 3.
Our biggest problem is that the MSM and college professors are diametrically opposed to us. We have to focus on getting conservative thinking back in those venues.
pedestrian on November 5, 2008 at 6:40 PM
Amen to all that. I’m shoveling coal in the train and getting it ready for the rails. First stop is my own district here in Southern California. Things will change.
The Hispanic population that the GOP fears so much here in Kali are the people who put prop 8 over the top. These are, at their core, conservative people. We must open their eyes to conservative principles in the GOP. Ditto African Americans.
There is so much opportunity that candy-assed GOP leadership has been afraid of tapping. That’s going to change or I will die trying.
pugwriter on November 5, 2008 at 6:40 PM
Amen!
I’m going to go a little further out on a limb. If no real change occurs in the next year, I propose forming a real 3rd party Conservative Party… and try to persuade Palin and Jindal to switch and help lead it.
If the old RINO party refuses to follow its original moral compass, then I say let it get lost and die in the wilderness.
I would love to join an excited, energetic party that proudly espouses its conservative views, and works to teach the ideals that our schools have abandoned teaching!
dominigan on November 5, 2008 at 6:41 PM
no one appealed to the religious right… she was branded as a fiscal hawk and a populist who happened to be a social con.
i would know, i’m ordained.
Fozzy Bear on November 5, 2008 at 6:41 PM
You would have had to put her at the top of the ticket to answer that question, or did you think they were too stupid to read who got top billing.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 6:41 PM
Amen and amen.
I supported McCain. I gave money to McCain.I prayed for McCain. I wanted McCain to win, but only because he was preferable to Obama. But it irked me every time I saw Lindsey Graham and Joe Lieberman standing behind him on the stage.
Those three are icons of what went wrong with the Republican party – accomodationist RINOs.
microfiction on November 5, 2008 at 6:42 PM
lexhamfox on November 5, 2008 at 6:20 PM
With all due respect you are a flaming idiot. Our entire country and republic form of government is based on our rights coming from God. either you do not know history or you choose to not understand it.
Prosperity comes in many forms not just money or commerce as you put it. Propserity for some is religous freedom, for others it is raising their children how they want. For others it is peace and quite on their land.
Soveignty rests in our souls. We believe in our ideals of freedom libery etc no matter where we live.
Worhtless mantras? you mean like hope and change? yes we can? fundemental change? change we can believe in?
Yeah because those mantra’s were so worthless. You lead people by ideals. you govern them by policies that reflect those ideals or mantra’s
Life liberty, pursuit of happiness are mantra’s you can lead people with. It is sad in today’s country we must explain to the youth what liberty means, what life means and what the pursuit of happiness means.
you godless americans should think about what you say. If you take God out of the equation than all rights become just things nothing special and any government can take them away from you.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 6:43 PM
I say we kick the godless americian out of the rep party. I am tired of their crap.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 6:43 PM
Couldn’t you see the confusion if we formed an energetic, excited Conservative party that really followed their ideals… and the Democrats looked old and doddering??
The irony would be fun to watch…
dominigan on November 5, 2008 at 6:43 PM
Lorien, do you have documentation for this claim? I’ve been looking for it but not finding it, and I’m not certain yet that it’s true.
philwynk on November 5, 2008 at 6:45 PM
Without God, the USA crumbles. Period.
pugwriter on November 5, 2008 at 6:46 PM
I would like to remind you that over 70% of Americans identify themselves as Christians. I disagree that the idea that our rights are inalienable and God-given will alienate many votes. Most people have read the Declaration of Independence and revere it as one of the founding documents of our country. Just because you and a few other outspoken people may be overly sensitized to religion that does not make it a bad thing in politics just yet.
Americans have learned to trust people that are serious about their Christian faith because they tend to have a more active conscience when it comes to doing what is right for others. It helps breed trust. The fact that you are debating this is more a symptom of the damage done by George W. Bush to what Christians and conservatives stand for than anything else. He claimed those labels, but he did not behave as a conservative Christian should. The actions of Bush have made a mish-mash of the principles that both conservatism and Christianity stand for.
Hawthorne on November 5, 2008 at 6:47 PM
Says who?
“Drill here, drill now” is supported by more than 70% of the American public (50% support even among Democrats), and was chosen based on careful polling. It’s about the only thing Republicans have done in the last 2 years that’s worked.
And you want to ditch it?
Get a clue, please.
philwynk on November 5, 2008 at 6:49 PM
If the GOP keeps ‘being British’, we’re doomed.
If the GOP keeps pandering to illegal aliens, we’re doomed.
If the GOP does not grow balls and fight tooth and nail, we’re doomed.
madmonkphotog on November 5, 2008 at 6:51 PM
Where do our rights come from?
lorien1973 on November 5, 2008 at 6:52 PM
I think we’d be better off starting a 527 and trying to influence that way. Money, bodies, resources, etc. I’m not for Huckabee, but think how he might have done if he had people and money behind him. That kind of power might influence the agenda.
huckleberryfriend on November 5, 2008 at 6:52 PM
Um… no. Our country was not founded by God. It was founded by great men who fought against oppression and created a new government which rejected state religion.
Oh… yeah… as for kicking people out of the party who don’t subscribe to YOUR religious views. That’s a church not a political party.
lexhamfox on November 5, 2008 at 6:53 PM
Yeah, I’m certain of it. I don’t save links. But commercial paper lending did not have a serious downturn during the “apocalypse” Smaller, well capitalized banks, were more than happy to lend money out. Government, in fact, had to force a lot of these smaller banks to take bailout money so that it would be more pallatable to the public.
lorien1973 on November 5, 2008 at 6:53 PM
Be as religious as you want. But don’t delude yourself that your religiousity will ever serve to justify your policies to the typical American voter.
Blacklake on November 5, 2008 at 6:35 PM
So know citing the founding documents makes you a relgious nutcase. That’s it. I have had it with the godless reps fraction of our party. You have been suduced by the liberal left. Stop listening to your friends? to your teachers and read the bible, read the founding documents, understand what our founding fathers taught. The basic truths in the bible are basic human truths they do not change. the basic truths that the founding fathers knew are the same basic truths they do not change. Power corrupts. government is evil. Humans are special we are different from the fish and the bears. We think therefore we are. We have certain flaws/sins that we repeat mistakes after mistakes. Rights have to come from somewhere making them come from someone or something that gov can never fight and conquaer makes those rights out of bounds for the gov to take.
It is the belief in God that has keep you a free people. Without God your rights and freedoms would be quickly taken from you. It is no coincidence that communism outlaws God. the state gives rights and can take them away in communism/socialism. EWhat is yours is mine and mine is yours.
Believe in Chriust/God makes you an individual, gives you a seperate soul makes you special, allows you to be different then everyone else.
Those that want to destroy God want to destroy individualism.
I am tired of the godless reps. We don’t really need you go away. Yuo make up like 5% of the party go away… you come for our ideas of conservatism which were created because of our belief in God.
If not for God conservatism would never have been. and in thanks you try to destroy that belief which will be a end result of destroying conservatism.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 6:54 PM
PERFECT!
bperiwinkle on November 5, 2008 at 6:56 PM
I’m a conservative. I register as a Republican to vote in the primary, they take my name off the roles again. Here in Maine we’re overrun with RINOs who drift along being pro-abortion, pro-illegal immigration, pro gay “rights,” and pro big government. Unless Republicans decide to return to conservative roots, I’m out of here. Constitution Party? Libertarian Party? I don’t know, but I can’t stand RINOs anymore. That I do know.
Tom McLaughlin on November 5, 2008 at 6:58 PM
I don’t demand perfection in predictions.
But constantly, Ed had rose colored glasses on during this campaign and (willfully, I believe) ignored reality.
He was putting party before beliefs. Some of us here called out McCain on his quasi-socialism when necessary. We were demonized for it. I was content with that. I put beliefs before party. Beliefs before elections.
If the entire movement was as principled, we wouldn’t have been stuck with McCain (nor many of the current “leaders” in Washington) in the first place.
lorien1973 on November 5, 2008 at 6:59 PM
Now that we can all agree on that, where is the personality to carry it forward? Is it Palin? She’s the only one who impressed me at the RNC Convention. Not one of the other presenters came close to the charismatic abilities that we need.
jay12 on November 5, 2008 at 6:59 PM
They rejected state religion, but they didn’t reject religion. Religion is a reoccurring theme from them, just look at what it says on our money. I know some people like to imagine them as running away from religion, but they ran away to practice their religion freely.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:00 PM
Um… no. Our country was not founded by God. It was founded by great men who fought against oppression and created a new government which rejected state religion.
Oh… yeah… as for kicking people out of the party who don’t subscribe to YOUR religious views. That’s a church not a political party.
lexhamfox on November 5, 2008 at 6:53 PM
Do you read history or make it up. It was the belief in God that gave those founding fathers the courage to come to to this land. It was the belief in God that formed the founding fathers political views of limted government. It was the Christian teachings of giving to God what is God’s and ceaser’s what is ceazer’s that allowed the consitution to be penned. Individual rights, souls. It was such a strong belief that they included it in EVERY document and the right to pray how you want. the entire western civilization that has given you every comfort in the world is based on thoughts and teachings from relgions be it the greek relgion, the rome relgion or judeo/chirstian teaching. Each added to the next expounding on the forming, given more human truths to the next generation. Causing volumes of literture to be written, of scientific research to be begun. In fact it was the drive to get closer to God that caused several of the greatest discoveries of Man.
The drive to better oneself to live in God’s image, to become as perfect as a flawed human can be has driven more men to greatness than any atheist could every comprehend
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:01 PM
She has charisma, no doubt. The RNC speech was one of the best speeches I’ve ever heard.
But she sorta lost me when she wanted to increase the federal special needs education budget from 10 billion to 40 billion.
I never got a coherent small government message out of her. That was dismaying.
Maybe it was McCain. Maybe it was her.
lorien1973 on November 5, 2008 at 7:01 PM
Sadly, even self-evident truths must be sold in the marketplace of ideas.
So you prefer the pragmatics of power over principle?
It seems to me that we need the pragmatics of power in service to principle. One without the other will not serve, and principle-as-a-servant is no principle at all.
njcommuter on November 5, 2008 at 7:02 PM
These rights come from God. They are recognized and protected by the government, but the government is not the source of the rights.
Wethal on November 5, 2008 at 7:03 PM
I cannot believe this thread getting bogged down in the role of religion. The FF were not confused about it at all. Will we ever get anywhere?
jay12 on November 5, 2008 at 7:03 PM
3-month LIBOR has fallen nearly every day for about two weeks. Keeping the commercial paper market functioning has been one of the most essential and effective measures that the Fed has taken. The cost is small compared with the consequences of having the CP market not operate and businesses not be able to manage their operations.
dedalus on November 5, 2008 at 7:04 PM
The Fred on The principles (skip to 3:09):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsiW0XPJioE
Bruce in NH on November 5, 2008 at 7:05 PM
cannot believe this thread getting bogged down in the role of religion. The FF were not confused about it at all. Will we ever get anywhere?
jay12 on November 5, 2008 at 7:03 PM
not until we kick the godless americians that want to get rid of relgion from our party platform out. I have no problem with reps that do not believe in God. However, I draw the line on those that do not understand that without the beliefs of God there would be no Conservatism.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:06 PM
http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/2008/10/20/daily27.html
It’s from a report by the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis
Mark1971 on November 5, 2008 at 7:07 PM
I believe her to be open to the list of core principles. Actually, I was not talking about where she might have come down on any particular issue. I was talking about whether she has the electrifying presence to mesmerize, like Obama obviously has.
jay12 on November 5, 2008 at 7:07 PM
When someone comes up with a platform that I can get onboard with then my wallet will open.
Never again will it open to a politician who doesn’t provide the vision AND the plan. Vision isn’t enough.
Limerick on November 5, 2008 at 7:07 PM
Flake for Minority leader.
McCotter for House Whip.
BKennedy on November 5, 2008 at 7:09 PM
Sir, your anti-religious bias is dripping all over these forums. If you don’t like religion then fine. Don’t be religious. The great beauty of Christian thinking is that you have free will to choose your path and what you choose is how you will be judged by God. If you do not believe that then it is your choice. However, for you to come into a fundamentally Christian and conservative forum and start spewing what you do smacks more of provocation than debate.
As a Christian I will not force you to practice any religion as the Muslims would. As a Christian I value your free will and individual responsibility for your choices come time for judgment. It is not my job to judge you, that belongs to God. So why do you insist on condemning me for my beliefs when I do not judge you for yours. My arguments with you are based purely on secular pragmatism in fact.
If you deny that our rights are God-given, then you open the door for them to be taken away. The power of that statement is that people believe in it and defend it. As long as we believe it and are willing to die defending it the powers that would take our rights away must consider the repercussions. By reducing the belief in such a concept you remove much of its power and hence you remove much of the fear that would keep our oppressors at bay.
So please, if you do not believe it, pleas have some respect for those of us that do and will defend your liberties in the process. We are not your enemies.
Hawthorne on November 5, 2008 at 7:10 PM
Who is confused? My idea of the role of religion is probably pretty close to theirs. There is confusion but it isn’t mine.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:11 PM
Religion is deeply private and has nothing to do with government.
lexhamfox on November 5, 2008 at 7:11 PM
Why?
Because there are about 50 million voters who prefer creeping socialism to instantaneous socialism.
LegendHasIt on November 5, 2008 at 7:11 PM
I posted this on the Palin apology entry:
PS:
With regard to Bi-Partisanship. Everyone needs a moral compass, a set of core values which rarely change. A political party is no different.
Reagan had a moral compass and his policies stemmed from these. He rarely moved away from his values, even when embracing what we call bi-partisanship.
There is a lesson here. You should set markers based upon your core values and never cross the line, even in the name of bi-partisanship. The Democrats learn’t this a long time ago. What they invariably do, in the name of bi-partisanship, is pull Republicans across onto their side of the line.
Bi-partisanship for the sake of bi-partisanship is no virtue.
davod on November 5, 2008 at 6:04 PM
davod on November 5, 2008 at 7:16 PM
lexhamfox on November 5, 2008 at 7:11 PM
Again I do not think you grasp what is in front of your face. The only reason for government per the founding fathers is to protect the God given rights. Any other type of government is doomed to failure
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights GOVERNMENTS ARR FORMED.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:17 PM
Government is there to protect our lifes
government is there to protect our liberty
government is there to protect our pursuit of happiness. (i.e the common good)
Government is not there to give us a check, is not there to protect its power, is not there to grow itself.
It is there for one purpose only to protect the GOd given rights of the people.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:19 PM
@ unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:06 PM
You are the problem with the republican party. You think it revolves around your religion. Conservatism has NOTHING to do with God. As long as you are forcing your religion into the party, a majority of Americans are going to reject it. I don’t know what you don’t understand about that. A majority of Americans reject religious fundamentalism. Americans are becoming less and less religious everyday, so pandering to religious fundamentalists will get you less and less votes. You are willing to sacrifice this country to the socialist likes of Obama because you NEED to have your presidential candidate come out against things like evolution, stem cells, abortion, gay marraige, etc? Nothing is more important than whether gays can prance around and be married? YOU are the cancer on the party. YOU are leading its destruction. Unless the party abandons the likes of YOU, and returns to SIMPLE conservatism based on issues that EVERYONE can agree on, less taxes, smaller government, secure borders, etc, the party is doomed.
BTW, I am a “godless” American as you state, and unless the party changes, you can count on me leaving on my own will, because its neither conservative nor republican anymore.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:19 PM
Government has not a damn thing to do with religion, but religion, being part of a persons value system, does have something to do with government.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:20 PM
Very well said.
.
GT on November 5, 2008 at 7:20 PM
I indeed counted on it.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:20 PM
The church ladies (both genders) of the Republican Party have doomed us. We need to become more libertarian. Elizabeth Dole and her bogeymanning about athiests is not worthy of any of us.
Speedwagon82 on November 5, 2008 at 7:22 PM
Take note of how many “moderate” conservative republicans lost their seats and how many conservative republicans kept theirs. This tells you that even the left leaning moderates are really conservative in their values.
This is what got McCain rejected and the sock puppet elected.
Spiritk9 on November 5, 2008 at 7:22 PM
We tried it your way and what was the result? You however refuse to relinquish your failed stand, and vow to leave if another direction is taken. We had you’re back but you won’t take ours, so I say good riddance.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:25 PM
Couldn’t have said it better myself
gophergirl on November 5, 2008 at 7:26 PM
I’ll take Tom Paine over this Powerpoint puling.
profitsbeard on November 5, 2008 at 7:27 PM
@ DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:25 PM
When the hell did you try it our way? Bush was VERY religious, and McCain wasn’t a conservative and on top of that chose Sarah Palin, a SUPER religious person as his running mate.
I have nothing wrong with a religious person running for office. But when the person has views like Palin, “no abortion even in the event of abortion or rape”, it turns off a good 70% of the electorate. Its an extreme position. We need a conservative that leaves social issues alone, and focuses on the economy and foreign affairs.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:28 PM
ugh, fixed
“no abortion even in the event of rape or incest”
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:29 PM
It’s too soon, dude.
They’ll come to the realization that social conservatism is incompatible with small government. Give it time. They’ll figure out people don’t want to be preached to.
How many elections will it take? That’s the question.
2 down. Let’s count how many more are necessary.
lorien1973 on November 5, 2008 at 7:31 PM
Government has not a damn thing to do with religion, but religion, being part of a persons value system, does have something to do with government.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:20 PM
I agree, but that moral value set is determined by individuals… Not the state and certainly not political parties. We can leave the moral root, religion, to individuals and organize politically without having a religious requirement of any kind.
lexhamfox on November 5, 2008 at 7:32 PM
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:19 PM
first off don’t let the door hit you in the as* on your way out. Second without God and his teachings there would be no conservatism.
Second
Who said anything about evolution, stem cells etc. I am far from a very relgious person. yes I believe in God. I pray. I raise my son with his teaching in mind but I very rarely go to Church since I work on sundays. There is nothing wrong with believing in God. The liberals lied to you in school and in college. That’s ok deal with it.
As far as I being the problem that’s funny. Godless Americian make up about 9% of the population. Considering that most godless americian lean liberal that brings your numbers down to about 3-4% of the party. If one of us has to go I would rather lose 3-4% of my party than 95% of it. Kicking 95% of the party out the door seems a bit harsh. Get out of your echo chambe pick up the bible read it you might learn why conservatives are conservatives. you might understand why we are not the DEATH party. Why we vaule the unborn, the old, the sick, the infirm. Why we will not kill in the hopes that it makes others better.
Stem cell research is being accomplished in leaps and bounds without babies being sacrificed on the alter.
you say you believe in evolution? that’s great so do I. In fact with my earth science degree I have even dug up fossils and learned geologic time. And one thing that I found amazinfg is the evolutionary line from life in sea to humans almost exactly matches the story of Genisis.
So answer my this wise godless americian. How did the Jews thousands of years ago get the facts and progression of life on earth correct. When it has taken our sciencetists millions of hours/ billions of dollars to prove the story of Genisis and call it evolution?
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:33 PM
ugh, fixed
“no abortion even in the event of rape or incest”
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Why should an innocent person be killed because of someone else’s actions. would you kill a shopkeeper on the corner because a guy robbed a person down the street?
Give the baby up for adoption. the baby did not sin, did no wrong. Why do you want to punish it with death?
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:35 PM
If you believe that life from the moment of conception is equal to all other human life, then your point is consistent. However, it is a very small percentage of Americans who believe that abortion should be outlawed in cases of rape. A national candidate with that view would have a difficult time.
dedalus on November 5, 2008 at 7:39 PM
Actually, DFCtomm is correct. It wasn’t until Reagan attracted the “Religious Right” to the GOP that the Party became serious force to oppose the Democrats and break their 40 year stranglehold on Congress.
Now, if you want to alienate such a large segment of the electorate, be my guest. The GOP was once run by Country Club Republicans as you seem to want. History has already shown how poorly that worked out.
.
GT on November 5, 2008 at 7:39 PM
Bush was religious but wasn’t anymore conservative than McCain. You may not want to claim either of them, but that doesn’t mean I have to. Who cares what Palin’s views on abortion are. We have had a multitude of Republican presidents that have claimed to oppose abortion and not a thing has been done about it, so why should I expect her to do what they couldn’t.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:40 PM
Don’t white evangelicals make up about 25% of the electorate? HUCKAMANIA 2012 BABY!!!!
marklmail on November 5, 2008 at 7:42 PM
@ unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:33 PM
You DO understand don’t you, that its a majority of RELIGIOUS people that don’t want to hear that crap. I am not asking the republican party to appeal to atheists. Religious people don’t want to hear that our candidate is against abortion even in the cases of rape or incest. RELIGIOUS Americans reject that. You CANNOT appeal to the majority of Americans with the fundamentalist view on social issues as our base. It doesn’t work. You are a fundamentalist, its ok. Nobody is denying you that right. Just keep it out of the republican party so we can maybe have like 4 senators and a handful of representatives left by 2012 ok?
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:43 PM
I don’t want to impose a test of religion upon you, but you certainly want to impose a test of non-religion upon every candidate.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:43 PM
I think Muyoso would do well to read Abortion and the Conscience of Nation by Ronald Reagan before he tells us that opposition to abortion is harmful to the GOP and Conservatism. As I recall, it didn’t seem to hurt him at all.
GT on November 5, 2008 at 7:44 PM
@ DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:40 PM
I know of a handful of people that decided against McCain because of Palin. And I read and hear everyday from tons of people claiming the same thing. She cost him votes.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:44 PM
They’ll come to the realization that social conservatism is incompatible with small government. Give it time. They’ll figure out people don’t want to be preached to.
How many elections will it take? That’s the question.
2 down. Let’s count how many more are necessary.
lorien1973 on November 5, 2008 at 7:31 PM
Social conservatism can not function with small government. that’s news to me since it did very well up into the 60’s. The radicals in the 60’s took god out of public life. And government has grown by leaps and bounds since then.
social conservatism preaches self reliance, individual responsibility, law and order. culture guidpsts. The problem some social cons make is that confuse conservatism with busybodies. The gov has no right in your bedroom but it does have a right to say what type of marriage it wants to have for the good of the children and family.
A government does not have the right to say what you can look at or read but it does have a right to protect the children.
A government does not have the right to outlaw antisocial behaviors like homosexual but it does have a right to pass laws so the general population is not threaten with new wild dieases because of that anti-social behavior.
People in this country nned to relearn a trait that our ancestors had. It was called mind your own damn business. It went along with the good fences makes good neighbors mindset.
You want to life unshackled for social norms does not mean I need to deal with the cosnequences of those actions. you want to be gay fine. I don’t need to change my views of marriage to reflect your views. your rights end at my nose. you want to kill a baby I have a problem with that.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:45 PM
@ GT on November 5, 2008 at 7:44 PM
No, I am not saying that we shouldnt be anti-abortion. My personal view on the matter is that abortion is a necessary evil, but i digress. Its fine to have a candidate that is anti-abortion, but he/she should be SOOOOOO freaking involved in the more important issues such as the economy and foreign affairs that the issue never comes up.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:45 PM
I know a handful of people that decided to vote for McCain because of Palin. I read and hear everyday from tons of people claiming the same thing. She may have brought him more votes than she cost him.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:46 PM
know of a handful of people that decided against McCain because of Palin. And I read and hear everyday from tons of people claiming the same thing. She cost him votes.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:44 PM
And yet somehow she drew 20,000 + to rallies. she drew 70,000+ to a rally in FL. Amazing huh. and McCain drew at most 2000 to his rallies. If I had to guess why people didn ‘t vote for McCain I would guess from his rallies no one really cared enough to show up. If not for Palin I would have stayed home. So I guess my vote canceled yours out.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:47 PM
No, I am not saying that we shouldnt be anti-abortion. My personal view on the matter is that abortion is a necessary evil, but i digress. Its fine to have a candidate that is anti-abortion, but he/she should be SOOOOOO freaking involved in the more important issues such as the economy and foreign affairs that the issue never comes up.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:45 PM
So according to you when is it ok to murder babies?
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:48 PM
@ unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:45 PM
YOU ARE DAMN RIGHT.
So stop preaching about abortion, gay marraige, stem cells, etc. Its NONE of your damn business. You can CHOOSE whether to have an abortion, or marry a gay person, or use stem cells, otherwise, mind your damn business. Of course, you don’t look at it like that. You believe in the idea, but not when its applied to yourself, and the ideas you want to preach to the rest of the country, but that they don’t wnat to hear.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:49 PM
my point is proven, I see.
lorien1973 on November 5, 2008 at 7:49 PM
Let me get this straight. You’re not against a person who views abortion as murder being President but they should be more interested in making money than the murder of millions of innocent children? Call me crazy but I wouldn’t want that type of person as President.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 7:50 PM
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:45 PM
and the abortion issue was the main reason 51% of catholics voted for us. It got us the majority of relgious votes. Basically the only hard core anti-abortion people are unwed women and they only want abortion legal so they have a get out of jail free card.
I think the rep party should run on a platform of helping in adoptions, helping unwed women choose life, instead of giving them a green light to kill ther baby.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:51 PM
Except where the vote went to Obama. In that case it “swings” to the effect of 2 votes. If someone stays home it has the effect of 1 vote subtracted from McCain but zero added to Obama.
Palin firing up the base was good, but alienating swing voters was more damaging.
dedalus on November 5, 2008 at 7:51 PM
@ unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:48 PM
Murdering babies is never ok. It should be a woman’s choice whether she wants to let a clump of cells in her uterus develop into a baby though. If you are going to take that choice away from her, will you adopt the unwanted child when its given up for adoption? Will you pay for the birth and the raising of the child, something the mother might not have the funds to do?
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:51 PM
And other than the life of the mother is abortion ever necessary?
You’ve just admitted that abortion is evil. Since when is not opposing evil the right thing?
Dude. [/rolleyes]
.
GT on November 5, 2008 at 7:52 PM
If not for Palin I would have stayed home. So I guess my vote canceled yours out.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:47 PM
I voted for McCain for the record. It was in spite of Palin, not because of her.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:52 PM
@ GT on November 5, 2008 at 7:52 PM
When the alternative is MORE evil. Tons of unwanted children running around, either in homes where the mother cannot afford to feed them, or in adoption agencies growing up with all sorts of social problems. If those who want abortion banned would sign a big contract with America to adopt all unwanted children, I would see nothing wrong with banning the practice.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:54 PM
There’s an extremely long waiting list of people that want to adopt babies. There is no problem getting any baby of any color adopted.
It’s the kids over the age of 10 that rot in the system.
I’m pretty sure we’re all against killing them though.
JadeNYU on November 5, 2008 at 7:54 PM
Yeah, thats why so many Americans find themselves going overseas to adopt.
BTW, I didn’t realize that at 20 weeks, a fetus was just a “clump of cells”.
At what point during a pregnancy do you believe that a fetus is a living human being deserving the right to live with out the threat of being exposed to toxic levels of saline and being chemically burned unmercifully before being sliced up into tiny bits and sucked into a plastic bag by a vacuum cleaner?
.
GT on November 5, 2008 at 7:57 PM
@ unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:51 PM
You quoted the number yourself, 51% of Catholics voted for McCain. HALF of religious people thought abortion was an important issue. Obama is HORRIBLE on abortion from a religious person’s POV, and Palin is like an Angel. And you were able to convince HALF of religious people to take that issue seriously. Do you not see my point in that most that consider themselves religious do NOT vote on social conservative lines?
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:57 PM
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:49 PM
It is my business when someone kills a baby. As far as gay marriage. It is the gay preaching about that. Not I. I’m fine with the way things are. I am not trying to shove gay marriage down anyone’s throats or preach the benifits of it. Talk to your gay friends about preaching when it isn’t wanted. Stem cells isn’t my business unless you want to kill a baby for it. then I have a problem.
So just to get this straight. You ok if I choose to murder. That is my business and mine only. If I want to go out and kill my son right now the governemnt should have no reason to arrest me and charge me with business. And just so we are clear. If say I needed a liver transplant I would be within my rights to kill my son and harvest his liver? because that is my business.
As far as gay marriage. I am not preaching about it. you are. Why do you want gay marriage? I’m fine with civil unions with the all the same rights except with regrads to children. you want to butt plug each other have at it. you seem to want acceptence. there is a difference between not having a problem with it and accepting it in my home. I have a right as much as you to not want it in my home.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 7:58 PM
That’s not what you said. The person believes it’s murder, so not to act on that belief is horrendous. You also said that you thought they should be so preoccupied with making money that they wouldn’t have time to think about millions of murders being committed. I guess you will be supporting the Mendez brothers for the next Republican ticket.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 8:00 PM
Well said. This Independent can get behind such a message.
rbj on November 5, 2008 at 8:00 PM
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:57 PM
That’s 51% of catholics. the GOP got 81% of the evan christians. Yet 51% is a majority and is about the % of the population that Obama got and people are calling it a landslide becaus ehe got 51% of the people.
Abortion was not talked about at all by McCain nor Obama except for that one debate and the saddleback form. Other than that it was a non-issue. If McCain or Palin would have made it an issue the numbers would have gone up IMO.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 8:01 PM
@ GT on November 5, 2008 at 7:57 PM
Wow, you know how to make something sexy don’t you? Talk to me about scrambling the brains and then slicing up the body again, but in a soft whisper.
I don’t know when a fetus becomes a full human. Either do you. Its a question that cannot be answered. Maybe one day a God will decend from the heavens and answer something like that for us. You would think that if your definition of it were correct, he would have done something already. I mean 40 million murders of babies, and God hasn’t even said a word.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 8:02 PM
When the alternative is MORE evil. Tons of unwanted children running around, either in homes where the mother cannot afford to feed them, or in adoption agencies growing up with all sorts of social problems. If those who want abortion banned would sign a big contract with America to adopt all unwanted children, I would see nothing wrong with banning the practice.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:54 PM
So your a big fan of the movie solvent green I take it.
I think adoption is the answer for a large part of it. and I would rather spend taxes on that then say a interest on the debt.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 8:03 PM
@ unseen on November 5, 2008 at 8:01 PM
I am done with you, go reread my posts and fantasize about killing unbelievers.
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 8:03 PM
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 7:54 PM
oh yeah life is never evil. It is the indiviual that is evil not the life itself.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 8:04 PM
I doubt it. People don’t think there is going to be any change on the issue. I don’t think they support it, but they think it isn’t going away. I myself pretty much feel that way. They aren’t going to get fired up about an issue that they feel is locked in amber and never going to change.
DFCtomm on November 5, 2008 at 8:04 PM
muyoso on November 5, 2008 at 8:03 PM
Just keep on praying to yourself that there is no God. Because if there is you will have to explain why you were ok with killing babies by the millions.
unseen on November 5, 2008 at 8:05 PM
I see. So you believe that a person’s right to live is predicated by the possible economic plight with which he/she might have to endure.
How long have you been able to see into the future? You’re ability to prognosticate the outcome of a person’s life must be extraordinary.
I wonder what Jill Stanek thinks of your powers of enlightened auguring.
.
GT on November 5, 2008 at 8:06 PM
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