Round three: CO, NM; Update: Fox calls Ohio for Obama; Update: CNN calls Iowa for Obama; Update: Fox calls Virginia for Obama; Update: Denver Post calls Colorado for Obama; Update: NBC calls the election for Obama
posted at 9:06 pm on November 4, 2008 by Allahpundit
At this point I’d be shocked if either of them mattered, but the polls have closed so here’s a new thread for results.
As I’m writing that, CNN calls Minnesota and Michigan for The One.
Update: Turns out my prediction was too conservative: I had Ohio going for McCain. Fox calls it for The One. And with that, the hour of reckoning is at hand.
Update: I said in this post over the weekend that under no circumstances could Maverick lose more than one among Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Virginia. Unless the network projections are drastically wrong, he’s already lost two. According to MSNBC, with both PA and OH in the ledger, Obama has 195 EVs with 55 still to come from California. Florida would put him over the top.
Update: Ohio’s the first red state from 2004 to flip, incidentally, and the only one Obama needs thanks to its high EV number. He can win the election now simply by holding Kerry’s states.
Update: The nets will be appropriately cautious about calling Florida early after the fiasco eight years ago but Obama’s leading steadily by 150,000-200,000 votes with 60 percent reporting and the bellwether counties don’t look good. If that flips, we’re approaching landslide territory.
Update: Obama wins New Mexico, unsurprisingly.
Update: The polls are closed now in Nevada and Montana too, but neither will matter. CNN calls Iowa for The One.
Update: With 84 percent reporting, Obama’s now ahead in Virginia by 13,000 votes.
Update: With 91 percent reporting and a lead of more than 50,000 votes, Fox hands Virginia to The One. That gives him 220 EVs, according to my tally. California will put him over the top.
Update: More blood on the floor: The Denver Post says Colorado belongs to The One. We should have a call on California from the networks within the next five minutes, and that should wrap things up.
Update: And there’s California, and there’s the election.










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shoregulls on November 4, 2008 at 9:52 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/usvotes/interactive-elex-results.html
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Pres/Maps/Nov05.html
I got these earlier from others at this site and have been watching them. Come on people keep the faith!
antiquechick on November 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
look, everyone’s emotions are running haywire right now. let me calm the mood with a song:
strangers in the niiiiiiiiiiiiight…exchanging glances…..
Nuge em on November 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
I’ve got one beer in my hand and another in the freezer. Unfortunately, I don’t think I have enough alcohol in the house to get me through a night like tonight. Oh well, I have a test tomorrow morning so I suppose I should prioritize.
niuhuskie2009 on November 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
It is too early. You people are hysterical. Gaw, it’s ridiculous.
keebs on November 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
You seem genuinely happy. Why is that?
ManlyRash on November 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
BIG time, if your connection to the people is tainted, how you going to win?
abinitioadinfinitum on November 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
Thanks for your steadiness, Jim- far from annoying
Bernadette on November 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
Hey Sherman… as you are marching through the keyboard think about changing your handle to “Stanley Tool”. Fits much better.
Bradky on November 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
VA is now at 75% reporting, still 50-50%, with McCain leading 1,203,000 votes to 1,198,000.
Do you think Chicagoans would riot if their candidate WON? Tony Rezko for Secretary of HUD!
hawksruleva on November 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
Where can a guy get one of those? I need to prepare for the Civilian Security Force.
Sapwolf on November 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
*sips double margarita on the rocks with salt*
C’mon Johnny Mac!
(Still positive as I have NO television input – only browsers with actual return numbers)
RedNewEnglander on November 4, 2008 at 9:56 PM
No your not. I’m with you. This is still ALIVE! IT’S AALIIIIVE!!!
katy on November 4, 2008 at 9:57 PM
Amen, terryann.
capitalist piglet on November 4, 2008 at 9:57 PM
I prefer: “Midnight at the Oasis. Put your camel to bed…” Kind of fitting, my muslim faith.
HornetSting on November 4, 2008 at 9:57 PM
Jim Treacher on November 4, 2008 at 9:54 PM
LOL!
Some of the posts here are going to be fun to repost tomorrow.
Saltysam on November 4, 2008 at 9:57 PM
I gotta say it … considering everything that happened in Pennsylvania this election cycle, they win the Idiot Award. Hands down.
matd on November 4, 2008 at 9:57 PM
Actually Jim, you have mojo. You are filled with awesomeness.
No sarc.
carbon_footprint on November 4, 2008 at 9:57 PM
Shut up, would you?
doodleduh on November 4, 2008 at 9:57 PM
Don’t you have somewhere else to be? Go play in the street or something. We have work to do here.
Proud Texan on November 4, 2008 at 9:57 PM
Or flail around and make a spectacle of yourself. I can’t tell you what to do.
Jim Treacher on November 4, 2008 at 9:57 PM
According to Bishop Finn… they just bought themselves eternal damnation… and apparently they want to take the rest of America with them!
mankai on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Wrong. HE just sat there.
CherokeeJack on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
I think it is up to our boys coming home to make a difference. THis isn’t going to happen in two years….I mean look it’s been 2 years since the dems took over and nobody cares.
tomas on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Guys, most of what is being counted in Ohio is blue. Ohio has 88 counties and only about 20-25 even have any votes in.
MobileVideoEngineer on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
John Bolton says if Obama wins he’ll discredited after one year.
aengus on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Bumper Stickers…
Not “My” President
“Your” Premier!
hawkdriver on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Tzetzes is in Columbus, disheartened but not surprised.
Tzetzes on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Conservatives must hold conservatives accountable. Regardless of tonights results there must be an awakening on the right. Even people with conservative leanings are voting for BHO for social reasons. The trifecta of white guilt, youthful foolishness and blatent stupidity are making this one hard.
road2utopia on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
I hope Oprah trips and falls crushing Barack Obama under her fat ass. Then I hope she rolls over and crushes Michelle Obama.
Michelle Obama as the firs lady??? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY???
What the hell is going on?
gumble on November 4, 2008 at 9:54 PM
gumble, i love you!
Nuge em on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Now SNL will have no choice but to rip on Obama…or maybe even Pelosi …she’s gotta be full of material that bug eyed freak.
silentMajority on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Not happy at all but the Palin love was frankly silly. I am just surprised you are still posting after your 6,000 or so cheerleading posts about “Just Know”.
Bradky on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Charles at LGF is playing soothesayer and predicting McCain will concede much earlier then he has to. Which is my worst fear.
The media will lie and say Obama won.
Obamalama Deprogrammer on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Over at Townhall, this short by uplifting note:
‘Ohio is not over. Keep an eye on us.’
Posted by: Matt Lewis at 9:56 PM
I just received this email from an OH GOP insider…
hawksruleva on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
I think you can start drinking Manly. We lost. Sorry i beleved in you and in so called PUMA’s. They forever should be called “traitor of the republic”.
clemycali on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
You are so delusional in your ‘pro’ McCain that I can only assume you are a plant – always rah rahing while pretending to ‘know’ what others don’t.
Do you also run API?
A Axe on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Why don’t you go chew on a wire or play in traffic. You are an idiot. Please STFU!
HornetSting on November 4, 2008 at 9:58 PM
Yeah, especially Jim’s.
CanadianGuy on November 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
Doesn’t matter whether we shrug or not.
Massive tax increases, government take-over of several industries, greatly expanded unionization, increased dependence on foreign energy supplies, etc…. all coming during an economic slowdown.
It’s Depression time, folks. Time to pick up a cheap plot of land, preferably in a nice conservative state, and learn how to farm.
ClintACK on November 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
Bradky, if you voted for McCain, why are you so giddy?
Are you all reading fogw’s comments? You should.
Professor, don’t start the drinking yet. If it goes that way, then yes, and I will never again feel about America as I so deeply did. But I will come to that conclusion when all the votes are counted.
Entelechy on November 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
Well so long and thanks for all the fish. This is the last post I make at Hot Air as I now fear for my safety in the BO world. Frack every one of you nimrods I hope and pray you get exactly what you deserve from the One. It is the end of the world as we know it.
jmarcure on November 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
That fox map is about as useful as t.i.t.s. on a bull.
carbon_footprint on November 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
Like buying all the weapons we want before NOBAMA and the slobbering idiots in Congress pass AWB part deux. I have a Mossberg 590 1A on my list for my new condo in NH.
Mooseman on November 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
I, like most of you, am a little concerned about this election. Today is the day. There is no turning back now. Pray for the best, but brace for the worst. But let me say this in case the worst case scenario occurs; it’s not the end of the world.
My wife is from Venezuela. She immigrated here legally for the opportunities our country provides. It also doesn’t hurt that I’m here too but that’s another story. I have been there four times and I have seen how socialism ruins countries firsthand. I have seen the shanties on the hills of Caracas and Puerto La Cruz, and I have seen poverty with my own eyes. I consider these trips luxuries as very few of us have ever had the privilege of being reminded of what a great country we have. Venezuela has it all, food shortages, high murder and crime rates, crumbling infrastructures, nation-wide blackouts, a currency that you couldn’t exchange at gunpoint and a government that stifles all criticism and free speech for their own agenda. Life under Hugo Chavez or any dictator is definitely not pleasant and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone from what I’ve seen.
However, it’s not all bad. Despite the poverty and squalor that I have seen, I have seen very beautiful things in that country. There are very beautiful sceneries and landscapes but that’s not the most enchanting thing about the country I experienced. It’s the people.
It’s been said that adversity brings out the best in people. I have seen this. Some of the most amazing people I have ever met have been Venezuelan, both here and in their homeland. Their country has been circling the drain at the hands of a narcissistic madman for years and they still find reasons to live life with a smile on their face. The Venezuelans I’ve met have the strongest core family values I have ever met. They don’t have a lot but what they have means everything to them. It’s something to be envied. They cherish what they have and they appreciate what little they have more than we something appreciate the mass quantities of stuff we have here.
I got reminded of this in March of this year. I went to a Venezuelan wedding, the second I’ve ever been too. The first one was my own. It was my wife’s niece who was getting married and it served as the biggest wake-up call I ever got. This was a party! My wedding was a party. I’ve often said that we don’t know how to party in this country and I can prove it. Parties in Venezuela don’t end until they run out of whiskey.
The one thing I noticed is that these people were having fun. They were smiling! They were enjoying life! They were celebrating the union of two people who wanted to live as husband and wife and they couldn’t be happier. We have it so good that we tend to think of people living under that kind of oppression would be living in sorrow. That they would be depressed all the time to not have the freedoms we enjoy. Not true. Life is still worth living even though things are tough. There is always a reason to keep moving forward and there is always a reason to never give up the fight. There’s always a reason to keep going and there’s always a reason to stay optimistic. Things can only get better because we know they can be much worse than they are now.
We take our lives for granted in this country and this election is at least a wake up call that all we have accumulated in life is fragile. It can all be gone tomorrow. How we deal with that is going to be the test for the kind of people we really are. Do we lie down and accept our fate? Or do we stand up, dust ourselves off and say to the word, “is that the best you got?” Do we keep smiling in the face of adversity or do we regroup as Americans and strive to overcome it?
I don’t want to make this a doom and gloom piece, it’s not my intention. If Obama wins on Election Day it’s not the end of the world. Hell, it may not be as bad as we are imagining. Human beings, in general, tend to gravitate to the most extreme when faced with prospects that are unsettling to them. But if they are that bad, do we give up? No. We fight. The election is not the end of the story, it’s the beginning. We can lose our material possessions, we can even lose some of our freedoms, but if we lose we are as Americans then we are truly lost, period. If Obama wins, he will be our president, but that doesn’t mean we give him carte blanche. He works for us and we won’t let him forget that. If he tries to silence us, we will only scream louder. If he knocks us down, we will get back up on our feet. If he does something that enrages us, let him know how angry we are in no uncertain terms. On the same token, if by some miracle, he does something worthy of praise, we should not be ashamed to commend him for it. It’s because we as Americans have always been judged by how we deal with adversity. It’s time, once again that we remind ourselves of that.
That’s the one thing I learned by going to Venezuela, life is still worth living, there’s still beauty in the world, and if all we have is our family and friends, we can get thru anything.
God bless America, and may God bless all of us, no matter what happens.
Pcoop on November 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
pres was kind of busy and no one picked up the slack…we need youth now…and the energy to fight for them. Not people just rolling with the game.
tomas on November 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
F*CK OFF!
HornetSting on November 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
Ohio is the last nail in the coffin.
Obama will get to “experiment” with his pet theories of moving money around and snake-charming murderous thugs. Direct from the the test tubes to you. Every time it was tried before the lab blew up, but heh, what is politics for if not to experiment with our lives. It worked out pretty good with Fannie Mae didn’t it.
The only hope now is that the Dems fall short of 60 seats, and that the man who has never held a job or made a decision continues in the vein of talking big and doing nothing.
More likely, we are looking at 1976 to 1980 all over again, requiring a 20 year recovery. And that might be optimistic.
It was already dire for the next generation…..but they were hypnotized by the hopeychangey, so they are now complicit in the results.
What an act of lunacy. God help us all.
notagool on November 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
God is at His best when man is at his worst.
Mr_Magoo on November 4, 2008 at 9:59 PM
Psst. It is a blog site where you can post. No jobs round here.
Bradky on November 4, 2008 at 10:00 PM
Why won’t you people listen to me, someone who is in Ohio and an average Ohioan that has been to just about every corner of the state. Read my posts, this is far from over.
MobileVideoEngineer on November 4, 2008 at 10:00 PM
I live in Boise, which is fairly right, but most of the groups I hang out with (Burning Man types, Hash House Harriers runners and drinkers, nature types) are decidedly not right.
While I am not a social conservative and can tolerate them for the fun we have, the gloating may be a bit much
firepilot on November 4, 2008 at 10:00 PM
This commie dumbazz is gonna be the best thing that ever happened to the Pubbie Party.
Tony737 on November 4, 2008 at 10:00 PM
Ohio to Obama. It is over. This election reminds me witch trials during colonial times in the respect that the accused was drowned and if they drowned they were not a witch. Congratulations America, you’re not racist and the other choice really wasn’t much of a choice, but you have just won a horrible President with advisers just as crazy as the Neocons were, just as much dogmatic ideology. And for free you get a horrible Congress and probably three to four eminent domain loving Justices putting in their two weeks notice about a week after they celebrate New Years, if they live that long, yet I still think they should spot check pulses to be sure, I’m pretty sure Ginsburg is just propped up with a stick during arguments.
Thank you Bush.
LevStrauss on November 4, 2008 at 10:00 PM
Iowa to Obama, Utah to McCain.
amerpundit on November 4, 2008 at 10:00 PM
3rd Rock from the Sun marathon on TVLand!
journeyscarab on November 4, 2008 at 10:00 PM
The only reason we will lode this is if McCain concedes. He’s the one who said Fight! Fight with me! oooo k. ready dude
katy on November 4, 2008 at 10:00 PM
hmmm…we lost eh…first thing we need to start on is ending voter fraud.
theguardianii on November 4, 2008 at 10:00 PM
IOWA
Idiots Out Walking Around
carbon_footprint on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
The fun is just beginning.
Saltysam on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
I told you before I am taken. Not interested in you. Go find Manly.
Bradky on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
uh that’s lose not lode HA!
katy on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
I have a hard time believing Conservatism can survive 4 years of obama and his media-ass-kissers. Yes, he will be horrendous, but the media will simply say it’s all Bush’s fault, and obama was simply handed a bad situation. They’ll say he’s doing the best he can. And all the while, more and more people will be going on welfare, living on the public dole. The more on welfare, the more vote demorat. Plus, when you consider ACORN will be made the official election surveillance department of America, it looks bleak for the future.
Just don’t see how conservatives outlast this one.
ErinF on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
MSM is about to reverse itself… before it re-reverses itself again later.
People, play right along, if you wish.
No wonder casinos get enough people to yank fixed-odd machines with real money….
profitsbeard on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
with democrats in power and winning elections by encouraging fraud?
you’re funny.
lorien1973 on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Yeah that’s about the 30th email from an unnamed GOP insider in some state which has turned out to be total bullshit the last 3 days.
CanadianGuy on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
why is everyone calling new mexico for obama but the numbers on three websites favor mccain
scruplesrx on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Obama wins Iowa
McCain wins Utah
haner on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
No, I won’t. Whatever happens, God is in control. I believe that.
Gina on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
I put my little ones to bed a while ago…and I know things will be ok…I’m darn sure going to make sure it is…as each and everyone of you will as well.
tomas on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Well, Dale, he is already the worst president we have ever had, bar none, except that he’s not the president yet.
Alana on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
DONT THESE PEOPLE KNOW THAT MCCAIN WAS A POW??????
Roger Waters on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
Don’t blame Bush or McCain. Both of these men have won a lot of elections in their lives. It is not a question of blame, we just need to see to it that Republicans can attract more people in the future. The party can not just hand over entire demographics to Democrats. And that is why we need to make sure we do not run off people like Sarah Palin. She is young and she has a future, we don’t need to blame her and banish her.
Terrye on November 4, 2008 at 10:01 PM
always look for signs. Cindy crying as per politico was corret. no wonder they were trying for Iowa. last resort was to keep bush states.
Robb on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Why is that? Because I’m showing the slightest measure of self-control? I suppose I should launch into the finger-pointing and such, to fit in.
Try to calm down.
Jim Treacher on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
GO F YOURSELF! I AM SO TIRED OF YOU TROLLING AROUND HERE. YOU MAKE ME SICK. F*CK OFF!
HornetSting on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
That’ll work for about 6 months. People hate when leadership – bosses, leaders, etc – pass the buck.
lorien1973 on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
As I posted in another thread, roughly 50% of people who identify themselves as catholics do so for ethnic or social reasons, not because Catholicism is their religion. They do not go to church or practice their faith, they simply choose to call themselves catholics because of where they were born or other social circumstances. That is why these statistics involving self-identified “catholics” are meaningless.
neuquenguy on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Roger:
Shut up.
Terrye on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
As soon as get a job and have kids, they’ll be Conservatives.
BacaDog on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
i’s 50% 49% Obama
how the hell are all these states called already
nada
audiotom on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
McCain can concede right now if he wants to , doesn’t mean anything. If the numbers turn and he gets the vote he wins whether he conceded or not; he just looks like a fool.
johnsteele on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Can’t blame Iowa. They wants them some corn subsidies.
BadgerHawk on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
The be prepared with another loss. Sarah Palin is a 40% general election candidate.
haner on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
We lose during the concession speech.
Project Ocelot on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
It’s a moot point now. I don’t think realism was such a bad thing, is all. It was pretty clear McCain had very slim odds given the economic implosion last month. Allah was right on this and a lot of people on our side were in denial and attacked him for it. The perma-optimists should acknowledge they were wrong.
phronesis on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Mobile Video Engineer
I hear you and believe you. The media is screwing America again. We know they’re liars; why do we still believe them?
I’m with you too, Manly. I’ll believe it when I see it and not trust one stinkin’ word from the MSM – including Fox.
justincase on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Christopher Shays, one of the most liberal Republicans in the House, has been defeated.
So that’s a little sumthin, sumthin.
paul006 on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Yeah, but Republicans had no problems quickly throwing the Iraq war and Bush under the bus.
terryannonline on November 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Those middle-class wanna be liberals are about to get the socialism lesson their unionized teachers and tenured professors never gave ‘em…hope Starbucks goes bankrupt. Time to start hiding the income folks.
DCJeff on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Damn…Ohio is close.
bdestini on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
To anybody on HotAir who voted for either Huckabee or McCain in the primary, just let me say:
Thanks for ruining our country. Assbrains!!!!
Roger Waters on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Hey guys I just got registered this evening. This one is definitely tough to swallow, but its always fun to be the opposition party. All I can say is Palin in 2012. We need to back her completely and start the Palin revolution.
ousoonerfan15 on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Musgrove got shot down. No 60.
Project Ocelot on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
mccain has internal polls, he knows this better than we do
audiotom on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Lots of grumpy people here. You all weren’t expecting a win were you? Calm down. Don’t fight amongst each other. Be adults here.
lorien1973 on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
OK, Update on REAL vote totals in NM:
——————————————–
4% OF PRECINCTS REPORTING
JOHN MCCAIN (R) 17,368 62%
BARACK OBAMA (D)10,432 37%
RALPH NADER (I) 103 0%
CYNTHIA MCKINNEY (G)66 0%
BOB BARR (L) 56 0%
CHUCK BALDWIN 51 0%
———————————————
Senate: 4% OF PRECINCTS REPORTING
STEVE PEARCE (R)12,525 59%
TOM UDALL (D) 8,626 41%
——————————————–
10% OF PRECINCTS REPORTING
House, District 2
EDWARD TINSLEY (R) 6,346 52%
HARRY TEAGUE (D) 5,857 48%
———————————————-
House District 3
1% OF PRECINCTS REPORTING
BEN LUJAN (D) 1,250 69%
DANIEL EAST (R) 427 24%
CAROL MILLER (I)139 8%
———————————————
House District 1 No precincts reporting yet.
————————————————-
So far, the real votes are just the opposite of what the projections are.
But they are probably estimating the vote fraud that will come in after the real votes are counted. I’m not calculating that in yet.
LegendHasIt on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Obama may win the election but he’s still a loser.
This whole thing has been fishy from the git go. He may win but it will be under false pretenses.
mindhacker on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
Heh I did the same thing today as well.
I asked my employer to remove me from all govt jobs, (TS level clearance be damned) and put me on commercial jobs. Then I went and voted, and then went to a gun store to purchase a new firearm.
F15Mech on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
That’s right Tomas. God bless you and your family. We will all survive.
carbon_footprint on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
I hope McCain doesn’t go and concede anything until the votes are counted.
BadgerHawk on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
That can’t happen now. It will get worse. Russ Feingold is introducing a bill to make same day registration/voting federal law (unless I’m mistaken – just heard a bit about this on the radio – would appreciate correction if I’m wrong), which is a recipe for voter fraud.
This election is probably the last one we had a chance of winning, because with the Democrats in total control, they are going to do everything they can, and quickly, to be sure that they never lose power again.
capitalist piglet on November 4, 2008 at 10:03 PM
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