Hot Air Mobile
Home The Vault Gear About
Hot Air -- get your fill


An open letter to our fellow Catholics on Election Eve

posted at 12:15 pm on November 3, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
Share on Facebook | printer-friendly

Our Faith Begins At Life

by Edward Morrissey and Elizabeth “The Anchoress” Scalia

Many of our Catholic friends support Barack Obama in the upcoming election, despite being the most radically pro-abortion presidential candidate in American history.  Other Catholics have publicly declared support for Obama as Catholics, arguing that their faith leads them to choose Obama over the pro-life candidate, John McCain.  We believe that they have overlooked in their arguments of “social justice” the foundation of our faith and of social justice: the sanctity of human life, and its origin.

It is not our intent to argue legalistically from the Catechism to our brethren.  We have both covered that extensively in posts over the last few months.  We want to remind our parishioners of the central fact that social justice has to start with the protection of innocent human life, and that our faith does not allow a trade between abortion and other social-justice policies.

A few months ago Doug Kmiec, a former official with the Reagan administration and prominent Catholic, made a public endorsement of Barack Obama and stated that Obama’s noble intentions on a full range of social issues made the Senator’s stance on abortion negligible. As Obama addressed every injustice, righted every wrong and wiped the tear from every eye, Kmiec seemed to reason, all of the complex social ills of the ages, from poverty, to war, to the death penalty and human rights would be suitably resolved and abortion would simply fall by the wayside as an issue.

Except, Obama has said himself that his very first act as President will not be some sweeping anti-poverty legislation; it will not be an end to war. “The first thing I’d do as president” Obama told NARAL, “is sign the Freedom of Choice Act“.

Kmiec’s argument might sound compelling to some – Denver’s Archbishop Charles Chaput admits to having reasoned similarly about Jimmy Carter in 1976 – until one considers Obama’s priorities. Under the heading of “human rights” Obama has made it clear – despite suggesting that the question of when a baby gets human rights as being “above” his “paygrade” – that in his mind a “woman’s right to choose” is a most basic human right; a singular priority. So passionately does Obama believe this that the Senator, who rates a perfect 100% with NARAL, unhesitatingly supports the procedure known as “partial birth abortion,” – an act so nakedly inhumane that his own running mate voted to ban it in 2003. And beyond that savagery, Obama has clearly articulated his position that a baby born alive during an attempted abortion should be refused medical attention.

Logically, then, a President Obama – whose presidency, we are told, will usher in a heyday for fundamental human rights – will always support abortion, even at its most extreme, even when its very definition changes to infanticide.  We have already seen Obama protect infanticide in a disturbing attempt to protect abortion in Illinois, and nothing he has said since shows any change of heart on this question.

The “abortion reduction agenda” which Obama mush-mouths and others, like Kmiec, seem to interpret as they wish, is a kind of “trickle down social economics:” once poverty is eradicated – presumably through higher taxes, higher energy prices, higher unemployment and the redistribution of wealth – once all of the priorities of war, famine, capitalism and injustice are taken care of (this would include absolutely ensuring “a woman’s right to choose” in any circumstance) and all the complex and messy matters of humanity have been sufficiently resolved, well, then the abortion issue will simply melt away.

Excuse us, but we see this as nothing more than fantasy – the mirror image, in fact, of another fantasy, one that holds that a reversal of Roe v. Wade will simply “solve the problem” of abortion. In each case, the fiction is misplaced because it refuses to look at the human heart. President Bush said in 2005, “a true culture of life cannot be sustained solely by changing laws. We need most of all, to change hearts.” He was given grief for that by some pro-lifers, but he was quite correct. Abortion has always existed, and it will always exist, as long as something remains broken within the human heart.

Even beyond this, though, consider why the Church supports social-justice issues.  Our faith does not emphasize fighting poverty and oppression as mere Boy Scout merit badges, or to give Catholics something to do on the weekends.  The emphasis on social justice springs from the foundational belief that all human life is sacred, anointed by God for His purposes, and not ours.  The need for social justice is for us to recognize the spark of divinity in all of us.

What does abortion says about human life?  It reduces it to commodity, and values it based on convenience.  If that is what we think about human life, then that rejects the entire idea that God created humankind at all, let alone for any divine purpose.  Without that fundamental understanding of the faith, then all kinds of horrors become possible — abortion, euthanasia, genocide on massive scales, war for acquisition, and the exploitation of the poor.

Why care about the poor if humans have no divine purpose?  If we can kill millions of our offspring without a second thought, why not leave the poor to their own devices?   Abortion represents the ultimate rejection of God and God’s plan.

And bear in mind that Barack Obama is no moderate on abortion.  The FOCA will federalize the question of abortion with the specific intent of striking down every moderating state law concerning abortion: parental notification, waiting periods, term limitations, and information requirements will end with its passage.  It will also re-impose federal subsidies of abortions by repealing the Hyde Amendment, forcing taxpayers — including Catholics — to pay for the abortions of others.

The question, then, boils down to one of reason: does your reason tell you that Sen. Barack Obama – a mere human being with a thin resume and a seeming propensity for shutting down, punishing, intimidating or otherwise harassing those who do not fall in line (through the force of government, if possible) – is going to heal the human heart through his social programs and his redistributionism?

Matters of the heart are never resolved through worldly machinations. More importantly, to expect a human man – who because he is human carries within him another broken, imperfect heart – to successfully, righteously and most of all disinterestedly resolve issues which have tested mankind for thousands of years is to assign onto him inhuman abilities; this smacks of idolatry and thus flies in the first and most fundamental priority of a believer: to have no gods before the One, the Creator.

Catholicism does not reject reason for faith but demands integration of the two, and prayerful discernment, before taking any action.

One’s vote should come after weighing reason.

Reason tells us that a human fetus is a human being and as such deserves inclusion into the whole notion of “human rights.” A candidate with consistent notions of human rights should be able to acknowledge that.

Reason tells us that an “abortion reduction agenda” is inconsistent with the stated priority of signing into law a sweeping, tax-payer funded abortion-rights legislation.

Reason insists that an ideology embracing the idea of genocide – whether that means eliminating people conceived with an extra chromosome or of wiping a sovereign nation off the map – is a warped ideology that is inconsistent with a commitment to human rights. Reason wonders why an electorate is not permitted to hear what a presumptive president might say to some such ideologues, and reason becomes very uncomfortable.

Reason tells us that one human man will not eradicate poverty. One human man will not eradicate war. One human man will not distribute justice to the nations. History is pockmarked with the graves of those slaughtered to the ambitions of human men who have tried to perfect and justify the world, according to their lights.

Barack Obama – inconsistent though he be – is no Hitler, or a Stalin or a Pol Pot. However, developing a fanciful notion of Obama’s ability to do and be more than man has ever done or been before – based on nothing more than a bit of charisma and an highly overprotective press – is to surrender, rather than apply, one’s use of reason.

Tomorrow is Election Day. By all means, each of us must vote for the candidates we believe will best serve the nation. ACORN aside, you only get one vote. Before your pull the lever, take some time to consider whether you have really applied your God-given gift of reason to it. And as Catholics, consider carefully which candidate best fits within our view of human life and God’s purpose for it.


Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4

I am outraged at the silence from the religious community, and even more outraged by the support for Obama from the majority of American Jews-

beththebaker on November 3, 2008 at 12:21 PM

I’m ashamed too. Truthfully. I just hope Obama ends up getting less of the Jewish vote than Kerry got. It will at least show there is some hope. Otherwise, I’m considering a divorce, in a manner of speaking, and no remarriage.

JiangxiDad on November 3, 2008 at 1:08 PM

So do you keep yourself from touching unclean menstruating women? should the life agenda include the rest of the bibles teaching on unclean women and swine etc etc?

ernesto on November 3, 2008 at 1:07 PM

guess you missed the part in the NT where Jesus threw out the ceremonial law…you should try reading it sometimes..

right4life on November 3, 2008 at 1:08 PM

crr6 on November 3, 2008 at 1:05 PM

So being pro-union means that you must force everyone to join a union?

How do you justify Chrit’s demand that we help the poor, with the liberals demand that govt take other people’s money to support the poor?

MarkTheGreat on November 3, 2008 at 1:09 PM

I am a catholic and I believe in protecting a woman’s right to choose abortion. I also believe in a person’s right to commit suicide should they choose. That is what it means to have true freedom. But I guess the founding fathers and I are in the minority that feels strongly in the separation of church and state. The meddling in people’s personal affairs is the type of government I DON”T WANT

Better go re-read the Constitution. Protecting the unborn is not establishing a state religion but merely protecting a citizen from the crime of murder.

fenian5 on November 3, 2008 at 1:10 PM

Too many just emphasize the life issues, because they believe that big government handouts (”compassionate conservatism”) keeps with the Christian’s duty to give alms to the poor. Pope John Paul II even criticized capitalism, in a speech given in Latin America, as being a morally wrong force.

And I think as a theological matter, that’s wrong.

very true…the Lord didn’t want the people to even have a king…no king but Jesus…if you don’t work, you don’t eat.

its pretty clear…

right4life on November 3, 2008 at 1:10 PM

I asked the Father at the church if he could do a Bar Mitzvah for my son!

beththebaker on November 3, 2008 at 12:58 PM

When I was younger the Temple in the town where I lived burned down. My Parish Priest offered them the use of the churches youth center free off charge. He had all the statutes and crucifixes removed or covered before they moved in.

Tommy_G on November 3, 2008 at 1:10 PM

My family is full of devout Catholics and we’re all voting for Obama. My mother teaches sunday school and my father runs a weekly bible study. We all feel that the Catholic church is much more in line with Obama’s platform. The church is pro-union, and social programs, and very anti-business. Pope John Paul supported Lech Walensa in his efforts to unionize Polish workers. So uhhhh NO CATHOLIC CAN VOTE FOR MCCAIN AND SILL CALL THEMSELVES CATHOLIC. END OF STORY 111

crr6 on November 3, 2008 at 1:05 PM

That’s funny- because the Magisterium says that you can’t support an abortionist when there is a pro-life alternative.
Did you and all your catholic family members just get permission from God to overrule the Vatican? Or did you just drop the word “ROMAN” from your title?

FiveWays on November 3, 2008 at 1:10 PM

right4life on November 3, 2008 at 1:08 PM

ohhh thats right! so i guess the whole bible shouldnt be taken literally after all…thanks for clearing that up!

ernesto on November 3, 2008 at 1:10 PM

crr6 on November 3, 2008 at 1:05 PM

Sound like you are bitter… Poland needed unions at the time.. they were coming OUT of Communism. we are about to embark in it … thanks to you!
No decent human beings that respect life.. not just the right to life, but the freedom of any human being can vote for Obama.
And by the way, Obama wants the Union ballots unsecreted! How’s that for thuggery? How is that pro worker? Think about these things!

beththebaker on November 3, 2008 at 1:11 PM

If Catholics had been on board the pro-life bandwagon from the beginning, we’d have already overturned Roe by now. Most Protestants have found themselves at odds with Catholics in fighting against abortion since they legalized it. I’m not expecting ‘great things’ from the Catholic community toward a more conservative political outlook.

I am Catholic and am against abortion. Although I am also frustrated by the lack of progress on abortion, I think your interpretation of why abortion is not illegal unfairly places the blame on Catholics and your assessment of how Catholics vote is incorrect as well.

Catholics comprise roughly one quarter of the electorate, so even if all consistently voted pro-life we would not overturn Roe v Wade single handedly. It is true that Catholics (who follow official Church teaching) are opposed to abortion in all of its forms, including opposing the morning after pill, IUDs, rape, incest, etc… but in my experience many Christians from traditional Protestant sects do not take that very strict position; rather, they permit abortion pre-implantation as well as in cases of rape, incest, and genetic defects.

Overturning Roe v Wade and eliminating abortions will take more than getting Catholics to follow the teachings of the Church and voting accordingly. People need to be convinced on multiple levels, including using scientific and humanistic arguments, that human life begins at conception and that taking innocent human life is wrong.

I’ve always wondered why Catholics were Democrats. I guess it’s the organized labor of religion which makes them support the organized labor of politics.

Re “the Catholic vote” — there really hasn’t been a Catholic voting bloc since Kennedy (see excerpt below).

According to the Wall Street Journal in 2004, a majority of Catholics have voted for the popular-vote winner each presidential election since 1972. This pattern seems to suggest that whoever wins the majority of Catholic votes becomes the next president of the United States (with the exception of Al Gore, who won the popular but not the electoral vote in 2000).

Because candidates of both parties have won the presidential election since 1972, this means that Catholics have voted for both Democrats and Republicans in the past three decades, and have thus become a crucial swing vote in the eyes of the candidates. [snip]

There are nearly 70 million Catholics in America, which makes up around 22 percent of the electorate. Large populations of Catholics live in swing states, such as New Hampshire, making their voting bloc as a whole that much more important.

Catholic voters also lack a consistent affiliation with either party. The Republicans can generally count on the Evangelical vote, and the Democrats can usually count on receiving the Jewish vote. However, of the four dominant religious voting blocs (mainline Protestants, Evangelicals, Jews and Catholics), Catholics appear to be the most fickle.

Fifty-two percent of Catholics voted for Bush in 2004, while 47 percent voted for Kerry. However, only four years prior, Gore received the majority of Catholic votes. A TIME poll released in July 2008 showed that McCain and Obama were tied among Catholic voters, with the candidates receiving 45 and 44 percent of Catholics’ support, respectively.

In fact, I haven’t heard a single higher up Catholic support McCain. Any Bishops, Priests, or whatever supporting McCain? Who does the Pope like?

I’m surprised to hear you say this. I think this election the Church has been much more vocal than in any other election that I can remember.

The Pope has not endorsed a candidate (and won’t), however over the past several months a number of Bishops and Church authorities have made a big point of publicly reprimanding Pelosi and Biden for misstating church teaching on abortion and have clarified for Catholics that it is not ok to support abortion just because they are also working to achieve so-called “social justice” on other issues.

and most importantly WHY ARE WE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION IN A SECULAR GOVERNMENT?!

ThackerAgency on November 3, 2008 at 12:19 PM

I agree that it is important that our country maintains a clear separation between church and state. The only reason “we are having this discussion” is because we are talking about how private citizens decide how to vote and their spiritual lives have a big impact on that, not because the teachings of any particular religious sect should become the law of the land.

Y-not on November 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Ernesto,

The rules for Kosher living served a purpose. In the Book of Acts, Peter is shown by God that the “food rules” do not apply anymore. We are not purified by ritual, but by Christ’s blood. “We are clean on the inside and are therefore cleansed of unrighteousness. Imbued by Christ’s righteousness.”

We are made new by our faith in Christ. He talked about Jonah, so that puts the kibosh on it being made up – at least to me and other Christians.

Yes, I know – the old “Christians just don’t think, they just believe” or whatever canard you’d like to use. Truth is found somewhere. It has to exist. It does not exist in man or any of man’s creations; therefore, something else has to be the source of truth.

As for me, I’m going with the Bible. I used to wonder about how could it possibly be true after so many years. Then, I met the Author. Now I realize, it says what it says – because He keeps it that way.

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM

As I’ve mentioned before-I’m a Jewish-born protestant who’s in RCIA. One of the things that drew me to the Catholic church in early September was thatr it still believes in MORAL ABSOLUTES and the fact that a lot of RC churches -even in CHICAGO-aren’t in Obambis pocket.
The Church is really growing on me.
Pete:
I believe that abortion should be decided by the states-though I also consider it evil.
I also still somewhat support the right of the terminally ill to stop their suffering.
I may change on that though because my father-in-law is dying of thyroid cancer and he’s doing it with grace and dignity like i’ve never seen

annoyinglittletwerp on November 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Tommy_G on November 3, 2008 at 1:10 PM
Thanks for the tip, but Father Kevin said “no”.. politely , of course…

beththebaker on November 3, 2008 at 1:13 PM

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:05 PM

Do you believe that there was an actual “Good Samaritan”, that the “Prodigal Son” was an actual, living, breathing person?

I’ve known people who made the claim that these people had to exist, that they weren’t just parables made up for teaching purposes.

It is my belief that the Penteuch is primarily and extended parable.

MarkTheGreat on November 3, 2008 at 1:13 PM

ohhh thats right! so i guess the whole bible shouldnt be taken literally after all…thanks for clearing that up!

ernesto on November 3, 2008 at 1:10 PM

as opposed to the way you do it…pick and choose, creating a god in your own image.

right4life on November 3, 2008 at 1:13 PM

I’m voting for Obama. I don’t think it is anyone’s business to be telling others how to vote.

username on November 3, 2008 at 1:14 PM

So do you keep yourself from touching unclean menstruating women? should the life agenda include the rest of the bibles teaching on unclean women and swine etc etc?

ernesto on November 3, 2008 at 1:07 PM

If you were 1/10th as familiar with the Bible as you claim to be you would be aware that Christians have been freed from those aspects of the law. See Acts.

MarkTheGreat on November 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM

That’s funny- because the Magisterium says that you can’t support an abortionist when there is a pro-life alternative.
Did you and all your catholic family members just get permission from God to overrule the Vatican? Or did you just drop the word “ROMAN” from your title?

FiveWays on November 3, 2008 at 1:10 PM

I don’t think Obama will have any real effect on Roe v. Wade, the only justices that might retire are liberals, and they’ll probably only retire if Obama becomes pres. McCain strikes me as someone who could care less about faith. The only reason he says he’s pro-life is because otherwise the right wing would flip out. If he’s so pro-life why did he want Lieberman as his running mate?
Anyway, my priest is very vocally supporting Obama as well. Some people think differently then you. It’s a pluralist nation, get used to it.

crr6 on November 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM

My friends consider me an Atheist, I guess I am. But I do believe and adhere to the Christian Philosophy. To not do so would make an Atheist something less than human. The philosophy of Christianity is one of the principals that made this Nation great. In my discussions with many religious people I’ve come to the conclusion that if they relent on any of the principals of their particular persuasion that they will be losing something of themselves. I don’t believe this is true, as the philosophy of Christianity is the same through out, it is a matter of how strictly or loosely you wish to interpret it. The basic principals we were given as Christians, remain the same, just our interpretations differ. If your interpretation differs to an extreme, then you have disregarded the and discarded that principal and have therefore rewritten the basic principals we were given to suit yourself. Isn’t this in effect what Obama has been saying all along in regards to religion and the Constitution? Maybe I’m all wet on this, but I for one don’t want the Constitution rewritten, and I will continue to live by the Christian Philosophy and the basic principals and freedoms granted to us by them.

N4646W on November 3, 2008 at 1:16 PM

annoyinglittletwerp on November 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM

I agree that states should decide. I think abortion is totally wrong, but we live in a sinful world – not Heaven. People are going to do things that need done.

It should be decided by at least a Constitutionally-allowed way – that would be votes – not judges.

I am sorry about your father-in-law. It is truly horrible when the tough things are not abstract ideas, but people actually suffering.

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:17 PM

The official position of The Catholic Church is that abortion is an Intrinsic evil.

Moral interpretations of Unions and poverty don’t EVEN come close.

FiveWays on November 3, 2008 at 1:17 PM

Anyway, my priest is very vocally supporting Obama as well. Some people think differently then you. It’s a pluralist nation, get used to it.

crr6 on November 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM

you go to Fleger’s church?

it won’t be pluralistic if you libs have your way.

right4life on November 3, 2008 at 1:18 PM

Anyway, my priest is very vocally supporting Obama as well. Some people think differently then you. It’s a pluralist nation, get used to it.

crr6 on November 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM

Uhm…..Rome thinks differently than you AND your priest.

So you choose your beliefs and your priests beliefs OVER your Church’s own doctrine?

So why do you call yourself Catholic?

FiveWays on November 3, 2008 at 1:21 PM

I was and remain quite happy that the Church has finally spoken out as they have of late about this voting advice, due to candidates’ positions on abortion (advice which is, don’t vote for the pro-abortion candidate/s).

That’d include not voting for Joe Biden, for Barack Obama, for Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy (not that he’s running again) and others of thier kind.

S on November 3, 2008 at 1:21 PM

The official position of The Catholic Church is that abortion is an Intrinsic evil.

Moral interpretations of Unions and poverty don’t EVEN come close.

FiveWays on November 3, 2008 at 1:17 PM

Right you are and right that position is.

S on November 3, 2008 at 1:22 PM

I’m voting for Obama. I don’t think it is anyone’s business to be telling others how to vote.

username on November 3, 2008 at 1:14 PM

lol. Just saw an Obama ad last night doing exactly that. Didn’t he tell his cultists to go “get in their faces” regarding opposing viewpoints?

a capella on November 3, 2008 at 1:23 PM

crr6 on November 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM

Just answer me one question, sir or ma’am…

What good is all the social justice in the world if you don’t have the right to life?

either orr on November 3, 2008 at 1:23 PM

It’s a pluralist nation, get used to it.

crr6 on November 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM

And it’s an authoritative Church that’s not open to your personal interpretation, so get out of it.

FiveWays on November 3, 2008 at 1:24 PM

crr6 on November 3, 2008 at 1:05 PM

My family is full of devout Catholics and we’re all voting for Obama. My mother teaches sunday school and my father runs a weekly bible study.

You all may be devout but you sure as hell are ignorant of your own faith.

We all feel that the Catholic church is much more in line with Obama’s platform. The church is pro-union, and social programs, and very anti-business.

That’s the problem…you FEEL but do not THINK. The Church does not support either communism or socialism and, in fact adrently opposes both as they involve the deprivation of private property and the substitution of the state for God. The Church also still teaches that envy and theft – the hallmarks of contemporary liberal political strategy – are still sins

Pope John Paul supported Lech Walensa in his efforts to unionize Polish workers.

Yes – because they opposed Soviet oppression and yearned for freedom. John Paul II also spoke out against abortion and infanticide – both of which your candidate entusiastically embraces.

Or did momma conveniently leave that fact out of her lesson plan?

So uhhhh NO CATHOLIC CAN VOTE FOR MCCAIN AND SILL CALL THEMSELVES CATHOLIC. END OF STORY 111

Um, no. No believing Catholic can vote for a man who advocates the slaughter of innocent human life. Re-read your catechism – the Offical Catechism, not the phony Dutch catechism.

You can always redeem yourself and vote for McCain.

ManlyRash on November 3, 2008 at 1:24 PM

BTW, Ed and Anchoress, my thanks for a well-spoken argument for life and those who support it.

either orr on November 3, 2008 at 1:25 PM

As a fellow Catholic, thanks, Ed.

Torch on November 3, 2008 at 1:25 PM

I’m not Catholic but know many.

Any “Catholic” who votes for Barack Obama should just quit the church. Go join the Unitarians. I think you can marry a pine cone over there.

What a joke are “Catholics” for such a pro-abortion candidate.

My heathen 2 cents.

Let’s roll.

ex-Democrat on November 3, 2008 at 1:25 PM

MarktheGreat,

No, I believe the parables are just that – parables.

The Pentateuch? I will be honest that I have a very tough time with the Creation story. Mainly, because I am a product of my teaching – and that was science-based and from an essentially “god-free” zone.

I don’t think it is an extended and primarily a parable – simply because we got here and here we are. God was not teaching us science or even sociology. He was telling us the historical narrative we needed to know. Abram was not some wonder-saint that picked God. He was a human-being (full of flaws just like his descendants and the rest of us!)

God wants us to know why He did what He did and does. Honestly, I don’t wrestle with the “how many animals on the Ark” questions for long, mainly because I don’t know. The Bible does not say. Pretty much, because God did not care if we knew or not.

What He did want us to know is WHY the Flood occurred – not the amount of water or animals involved. Am I happy with the apparent vague nature of the Bible at times? Nope. Am I willing to stake my existence on the truthfulness of it? Yep.
He is Risen. See that statement is true. Not because I in my silly, flawed flesh think or say it is true. It is true because the Holy Spirit reveals it to every single human who profess Him as Lord. That is why I believe.

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:25 PM

Damn you, ManlyRash. You’re always on it. Sa-lute!

either orr on November 3, 2008 at 1:26 PM

I’m voting for Obama. I don’t think it is anyone’s business to be telling others how to vote.

username on November 3, 2008 at 1:14 PM

The Catholic Church has advised Catholics on what the positions are that represent an engagement with evil versus not.

When we support evil, we support evil. Abortion is evil, lending support for anyone who promotes, supports and campaigns upon affirming and enabling abortion is participating in evil.

As Catholics, as Christians. It’s a contradiction and denial of Christianity to claim the faith yet despise or rebel against the theology, or principles of faith.

This isn’t a case of “the Church telling anyone” or what not, it’s a case of being advised what’s evil and what isn’t, to be blunt.

Supported by Christian theology, the Bible and understanding of God’s Word.

S on November 3, 2008 at 1:26 PM

Although not a Catholic, we join with them to vote our Christian values. The left wants to minimize these values until they have enough power to persecute or eliminate them through “hate speech” laws, “fairness doctrine” laws, or “destroy Joe the Plumber” tactics, or teaching revisionist history in our public schools and universities.
For a short, powerful video on Christian values, click below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwLY_HRt-AM

Christian Conservative on November 3, 2008 at 1:27 PM

N4646W on November 3, 2008 at 1:16 PM

On the basis of the Constitution – I call you my brother! Hail and well met!

Now the idea of Christian philosophy…okay, but it just unnerves me….

We should talk. (I promise to listen as well…laugh)

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:27 PM

Just saw an Obama ad last night doing exactly that. Didn’t he tell his cultists to go “get in their faces” regarding opposing viewpoints?

a capella on November 3, 2008 at 1:23 PM

Yeah, and just yesterday, last night, he also reiterated that threat advice: something like, “go at them, go AT them, get them…”

He was speaking again to riled-up advocates, telling them to literally “get” us.

S on November 3, 2008 at 1:28 PM

Has there been a substantive decrease in either teen pregnancy or abortion under the Bush Administration? Does electing pro-life people actually lead to less abortions?

Well, you can bet your bottom dollar that once anti-life Obama signs FOCA, which he promised would be his very first priority, abortions will certainly not decrease. It will cost nothing to abort babies, parents will not be notified, partial birth abortions will be legal everywhere. Will infants who survive abortions be safely left to die in dirty laundry rooms again as well? All protections that have been secured in the last 35 years will go up in smoke.

I am curious, Ed and Anchoress, about what Catholic hospitals will be forced by law do if FOCA is signed. Will they be forced to provide abortions?

marybel on November 3, 2008 at 1:29 PM

crr6 on November 3, 2008 at 1:15 PM

McCain strikes me as someone who could care less about faith. The only reason he says he’s pro-life is because otherwise the right wing would flip out.

His pro-life voting record is consistent and unblemished. He doesn’t support killing unborn children. Your candidate supports infanticide. How do you manage to reconcile THAT with Catholic moral doctrine?

If he’s so pro-life why did he want Lieberman as his running mate?

He didn’t. It was the head-fake of all time. And you fell for it. Fact is that he chose a non-Catholic as his running mate and that non-Catholic has a deeper reverence for innocent human life than many Catholics – yourself included.

Anyway, my priest is very vocally supporting Obama as well. Some people think differently then you. It’s a pluralist nation, get used to it.

Sounds like you belong to one of those Call to Action churches. Let me guess: you also support the ordination of women, right?

ManlyRash on November 3, 2008 at 1:29 PM

ManlyRash on November 3, 2008 at 1:24 PM

Nicely rebutted, Sir! I salute you.

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:30 PM

I meant to ad in my last post that my position on abortion was shaped by three major factors: what I learned as a Catholic, what I know about how this country was founded, and my training and experience as a scientist.

I think the Obamabots on this thread are kidding themselves if they cannot at least recognize that the scientific and political arguments alone form a very reasonable basis for an anti-abortion position. In other words, adhering to a particular religion is not a pre-requisite for logically arriving at an anti-abortion position.

Y-not on November 3, 2008 at 1:30 PM

Abortion is an Intrinsic Evil.

Intrinsic Evil:

Intrinsic evil refers to actions that are morally evil in such a way that is essentially opposed to the will of God or proper human fulfillment. The key consideration here is that intrinsically evil actions are judged to be so solely by their object, independently of the intention that inspires them or the circumstances that surround them (See the Catechism, Part Three, Section One, Chapter One, Article 4, n. 1756). In this sense, “intrinsic” does not convey the notion of a particularly heinous act (although all heinous acts are intrinsically evil), but that the act is wrong no matter what its circumstances. Aquinas says that the goodness of the will is derived from the fact that a person wills that which is good (see Summa Theologica I-II, Question 19, Article 1). In other words, the object of the act must be good in itself (essentially ordered to the will of God or proper human fulfillment) in order for the will that intends that object to be good. Although Aquinas never used the actual term “intrinsic evil” (intrinsece malum), he does in a way define the term, by saying that “the goodness of the will’s act depends on that one thing alone, which of itself causes goodness in the act; and that one thing is the object, and not the circumstances, which are accidents, as it were, of the act” (see Summa Theologica I-II, Question 19, Article 2). According to this understanding, while a morally good action may be made more or less good by the circumstances in which it occurs, the circumstances of an act or the good intentions of the agent may never make an intrinsically evil action good. Actions that are intrinsically evil, then, may never licitly be performed. Indeed, the term itself is commonly used in a more general way to refer to actions that are never morally permissible.

To all you Obama “catholics”; is this CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU?

FiveWays on November 3, 2008 at 1:30 PM

Damn you, ManlyRash. You’re always on it. Sa-lute! – either orr on November 3, 2008 at 1:26 PM

Hoo-ah!

ManlyRash on November 3, 2008 at 1:30 PM

I just cannot understand how a Catholic can vote for anyone that is as committed to keeping Roe strong.

guido911 on November 3, 2008 at 1:31 PM

I’m a Southerner and a Baptist. One of the hardest things I’ve ever had to reconcile is the fact that there were professing Christians who defended slavery and even Jim Crow later. It appalls and shocks me.

The same with abortion.

Now, the thing is to never confuse the sheep with the Shepherd. He was never for any of that. Actually, I’m certain that nothing makes Him angrier than those who profess Him with their mouths, but who’s hearts are far from Him.

There is not Christianity apart from Christ. Check with Him on that if you think otherwise.

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:33 PM

Thanks, Ed and Anchoress, it’s a wonderful post.

S on November 3, 2008 at 1:34 PM

Sad that such an open letter has to be written. Glad that it was.

Win or lose on Tuesday this battle requires you to stay in your foxhole and keep fighting. HARD!

Limerick on November 3, 2008 at 1:34 PM

Nicely rebutted, Sir! I salute you. – kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:30 PM

Thanks. I try to be patient with the slower-thinking Obamabots, but occasionally I like to pimp-slap them.

ManlyRash on November 3, 2008 at 1:34 PM

I’m voting for Obama. I don’t think it is anyone’s business to be telling others how to vote.

username on November 3, 2008 at 1:14 PM

So being a good liberal-type person who gets along and never gets in anyone’s business are you?

Really?

So, you won’t mind if we tell others how to vote, since it is our business right?

By the way, Obama is a socialist (if not out-right Communist) telling others what to do and how to vote is intrenched in that mindset. Your protest is hilarious!

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:36 PM

ManlyRash on November 3, 2008 at 1:34 PM

“Pimp-slapping” is un-Christian. ;-)

Abby Adams on November 3, 2008 at 1:36 PM

Luke 1:41 “When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb…”

What leaped in her womb? An infant. Not tissue.

Now why would a piece of souless tissue, LEAP in the womb?

FiveWays on November 3, 2008 at 1:37 PM

very true…the Lord didn’t want the people to even have a king…no king but Jesus…if you don’t work, you don’t eat.
right4life on November 3, 2008 at 1:10 PM

It’s not so much that as much as it’s the notion that aiding the poor is a duty that each Christian must fulfill. Having the government tax you and transfer the money through handouts doesn’t work because you are too far removed from those you are helping. Part of Christian love is the emphasis on accountability, and government gimme programs get away from that.

Also, I think a lot of Christian leaders don’t understand economics well enough to understand that rugged individualism and capitalism produces the greatest amount of human prosperity of any system on Earth.

The official position of The Catholic Church is that abortion is an Intrinsic evil. Moral interpretations of Unions and poverty don’t EVEN come close.
FiveWays on November 3, 2008 at 1:17 PM

The official position of the Catholic Church is that it’s bankrupt (three dioceses are in bankruptcy due to priest abuse lawsuits). Angrilly lecturing people about how abortion is Intrinsic Evil (complete with scare caps) is ineffective evangelism. So too is quoting Leviticus 18:22 and saying “gay marriage is an abomination!!!”

What Christians need to focus their life and family advocacy on is modelling good family life and good solid values. Support TV shows and movies that show good Christian families, rather than morally decadent shows that celebrate homosexuals and lecherous people. Contrast the joy that accompanies living according to the Bible with the unhappiness, woe, and despair that accompanies the pathological lifestyles of those who practice abortion and homosexuality.

Outlander on November 3, 2008 at 1:37 PM

For you, Manly Rash, seems appropriate here as also elsewhere.

Please feel free to use/apply at will.

LARGE
http://www.suzyrice.com/BIRD/archives/500wde_ManlySealOfApproval.jpg

MEDIUM
http://www.suzyrice.com/BIRD/archives/440wde_ManlySealOfApproval.jpg

SMALLER
http://www.suzyrice.com/BIRD/archives/320wde_ManlySealOfApproval.jpg

S on November 3, 2008 at 1:37 PM

Sounds like you belong to one of those Call to Action churches. Let me guess: you also support the ordination of women, right?

ManlyRash on November 3, 2008 at 1:29 PM

I don’t think he’s Catholic, based on the lingo he used (”Sunday school” is not a typical Catholic word, we use “catechism;” nor are “Bible study” classes common).

Having said that, I grew up in a very lefty parish… some of our nuns and priests “hooked up,” so I’ll believe almost anything is possible at this point, unfortunately There was a lot of leftward drift in U.S. Catholic parishes that the current Pope is trying to address.

I think the future of the Catholic Church is going to come from places like Africa where the Church is closer to its roots on social issues.

Y-not on November 3, 2008 at 1:38 PM

Martin Luther King was a one-issue man.

Roman Catholics should be one-issue Christians.

No to slavery.

No to abortion.

FiveWays on November 3, 2008 at 1:38 PM

beththebaker on November 3, 2008 at 12:39 PM

You rock.

I’m not Jewish but my girlfriend is….she voted early for Obama. She would basically stick her fingers in her ears and go “la la la la” when I’d ask her how she can POSSIBLY, as a Jew, vote for Obama?

Didn’t want to hear it. Just didn’t want to hear it.

I guess this is how Hitler came to power.

Let’s roll.

ex-Democrat on November 3, 2008 at 1:39 PM

I am a catholic and I believe in protecting a woman’s right to choose abortion. I also believe in a person’s right to commit suicide should they choose. That is what it means to have true freedom. But I guess the founding fathers and I are in the minority that feels strongly in the separation of church and state. The meddling in people’s personal affairs is the type of government I DON”T WANT.

PeteTheFloridian on November 3, 2008 at 1:01 PM

Wrong, Pete. Totally wrong. By the way, Catholic starts with a capital letter, and denotes a belief in the content of both the Bible and a worldview consistent with its interpreting document, the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you read those documents, and you read what St. Augustine and the other Doctors of the Church have to say on abortion and suicide, you will find that you have created your own “catholic” church — your own god, as it were — and you are not in communion with the Church, regardless of outward appearances.

Your “true freedom” comes at a price. Read:

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception.
From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person – among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.[71]
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.[72]
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.[73]

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable.
Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.[74]
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves.
Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.[75]

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense.
The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.
“A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,”[76] “by the very commission of the offense,”[77] and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.[78]
The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy.
Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
“The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority.
These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin.
Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.”[79]
“The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law.
When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined….
As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights.”[80]

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, “if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual….
It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence.”[81]

2275 “One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival.”[82]
“It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material.”[83]
“Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities.
Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity”[84] which are unique and unrepeatable.

Euthanasia

2276 Those whose lives are diminished or weakened deserve special respect. Sick or handicapped persons should be helped to lead lives as normal as possible.

2277 Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons.
It is morally unacceptable.
Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator.
The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded.

2278 Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment.
Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted.
The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected.

2279 Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted.
The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable
Palliative care is a special form of disinterested charity.
As such it should be encouraged.

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him.
It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life.
We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls.
We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us.
It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life.
It is gravely contrary to the just love of self.
It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations.
Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal.
Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2008 at 1:41 PM

On the basis of the Constitution – I call you my brother! Hail and well met!

Now the idea of Christian philosophy…okay, but it just unnerves me….

We should talk. (I promise to listen as well…laugh)

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:27 PM

I was once very religious. My family are holy rollers to the max. I do believe in the bible. I believe abortion is murder. I never respected the Southern Baptist ways and views. When I met my husband. That is why I fell in love with him. Not sure if you are being sarcastic or what? Is a good way to put this for a cover up. I also can’t stand someone that thinks that they have to sway one their way. I pray all the time. I remember the Bible. Last two years I get it out and read it. Most so called Christians come home from church. Pop open a beer and light up a joint. Is why I don’t go and find a church. We all are sinners in some ways. Not pure like god. Other wise why have churches? Churches are good for people that need that once a week or few times a week. I am not that way. We can still have the same values on Abortions. They are not right. So, I love my husband the way he is and his thoughts. He doesn’t need your so called ears. Don’t throw your stones on others. This is why I don’t talk about religion. There is one who thinks he is all mightier.

sheebe on November 3, 2008 at 1:41 PM

to kbyowexar and ernesto please read the Catechism numbers 101-133 for what the Church actually teaches about Sacred Scripture.
As to the point of Ed’s post I agree. Thankfully, we’ve been getting a diet heavy in the sanctity of life in our parish. Only someone invincibly ignorant or spiritually obtuse could miss the point on how a Catholic must take their faith into every part of life, including the voting booth.
The bigger problem, as I see it, is lack of action on the part of many bishops, not all to be sure, to publicly hold pro-abortion “high profile” Catholics to account. It is a source of scandal that they call themselves Catholic and yet publicly denouce beliefs necessary for salvation. Here’s a little more of what I’d like to see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym6Qgj55e3Y

e tan e epi tan on November 3, 2008 at 1:41 PM

MR, one of my favorite books is “Your God is Too Small”

In it, J. B. Phillips talks about the various things wrong about our “gods” we have in place of the actual One. He brings up a lament that the word “mild” was ever used for Jesus.

He points out that a Person who can walk unscathed through a crowd of people who were prepared to kill him can hardly be considered an unassuming fellow. The Man who repeatedly told the Pharisee’s what for – at their own dinner table even! – was not exactly a Person shying away from controversy. Loving, Caring, and Forgiving? Yes – hundred-fold, but never simply mild.

I agree with the folks in Narnia – He is not tame!

Sometimes, the best correction is the rod in His name. (laugh)

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:41 PM

Having said that, I grew up in a very lefty parish… some of our nuns and priests “hooked up,”

they weren’t that bad…at least it was hetero…

right4life on November 3, 2008 at 1:42 PM

Obama will permit anything that’s not impermissible. Like coal-fired power.

Dan Collins on November 3, 2008 at 1:43 PM

I’m so glad that most people are unwilling to be voting robots for their religion. They give themselves the gift of free will. Elections would be a farce and we would live in a hellish theocracy if more people followed the logic of this open letter. One’s vote is one’s own vote–not the Pope’s, not your minister’s, and not your rabbi’s.

I don’t know how many people are aware of how far Israel has gone down the path of theocracy and what it implies. Certain categories of illegitimate children(mamzer) are treated as second class citizens in Israel. For instance, they aren’t allowed to marry most other Jews. This is every bit as twisted as some of the stuff we see in muslim countries, and yet unlike in muslim countries, it’s done democratically. I sure don’t want America going down this path, and anyone who listens to this open letter takes us just one more step down that path. I suppose that this isn’t a concern tomorrow, but there is 2010 and 2012.

thuja on November 3, 2008 at 1:45 PM

My family is full of devout Catholics and we’re all voting for Obama.

If this thread were about “Jews” you would be posting “my family is full of Orthodox Jews”….get out of here astroturfer.

Let’s roll.

ex-Democrat on November 3, 2008 at 1:46 PM

The official position of the Catholic Church is that it’s bankrupt (three dioceses are in bankruptcy due to priest abuse lawsuits). Angrilly lecturing people about how abortion is Intrinsic Evil (complete with scare caps) is ineffective evangelism. So too is quoting Leviticus 18:22 and saying “gay marriage is an abomination!!!”

Outlander on November 3, 2008 at 1:37 PM

The pedophile priest issue is a classic example of Liberal policies adopted by the Church in the last 50 years. That’s why Pope Benedict reversed the policy of allowing homosexuals admission into the priesthood.

Preaching the moral doctrine of Intrinsic Evil is “ineffective evangelism”? Are you kidding me?

So the Church should preach from a financially beneficial perspective? Did Jesus not toss out the money changers from the temple?

FiveWays on November 3, 2008 at 1:46 PM

Most Protestants have found themselves at odds with Catholics in fighting against abortion since they legalized it

You’re incorrect. It took years before any Protestant groups joined the Roman Catholics in opposing Roe v. Wade. Only Rome opposed it consistently from the beginning.

rightwingprof on November 3, 2008 at 1:46 PM

I am a catholic

You got that right….a small “c” Catholic.

Self-pwnage on the Internet…priceless.

btw, you sound like a Ronulan…..Let’s roll!

ex-Democrat on November 3, 2008 at 1:48 PM

I’m R.C. and voting for McCain first thing tomorrow AM. I’m in NJ though so unfortunately Nobama gets our electoral votes. Unfortunately many of my fellow Catholics are voting for Nobama. My wife and her family are among those…

It seems that they like to interpret the religion on their own ala Biden & Pelosi. (sigh) I wonder what she would say if I told her that I decided to interpret my own idea on divorce? ;-)

worlok on November 3, 2008 at 1:48 PM

I’ve hardly seen Life discussed during the campaign. I suppose this is another topic the media has declared forbidden. Pelosi presumes to lecture the Church on its position, but she’s not running for President.

Biden, says he believes life begins at conception as a matter of faith, but is still pro-abortion. To me this means he knows abortion involves taking a life, but for political reasons, he supports the practice. As a Catholic, this is an abomination.

Obama has tried to obscure his position on Life: his “above his pay grade” comment is one example. His position based on the record, though, is more extreme than any modern-day politician who has ever run for office.

Clearly, on Life Obama-Biden is left of Beelzebub.

littleguy on November 3, 2008 at 1:48 PM

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:27 PM

Interesting, why would it un-nerve you to guide your every day decisions by a Christian Philosophy, after all, that is the philosophy this nation was founded under.

N4646W on November 3, 2008 at 1:49 PM

S on November 3, 2008 at 1:37 PM

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. Thank you so much! I am honored. And I plan to use it, starting here:

Suze is hereby awarded the Manly Rash Seal of Approval in thankful appreciation for liking me so much and for her ongoing efforts to ensure that John McCain becomes the 44th president of these great United States.

ManlyRash on November 3, 2008 at 1:49 PM

Catholics, if you want to see your future if you dumb down the biblical teachings, just look at the Episcopalians.

They are dying as they flail away allowing more and more liberalism in a pathetic attempt to “grow” and make themselves look p.c.

Hey, get a clue. If I’m looking for a church. I want a church that sticks to principles, not this cr@p.

Let’s roll.

ex-Democrat on November 3, 2008 at 1:50 PM

ex-Democrat on November 3, 2008 at 1:39 PM

sorry if this is too nosy, but I would honestly recommend you consider finding another female for companionship. wacked out liberal ideologue women only get worse with time…..

funky chicken on November 3, 2008 at 1:51 PM

“Pimp-slapping” is un-Christian. ;-) – Abby Adams on November 3, 2008 at 1:36 PM

I’m a naughty, naughty Christian, Ms. Adams. Very naughty. And I must be spanked.

ManlyRash on November 3, 2008 at 1:51 PM

Why do so many proclaimed religious folks vote for a candidate that supports abortion? This is one of the many contradictions of Liberals I simply am unable to understand

Recently the democratic candidate for my State Representative knocked on my door to ask for my vote. She reviewed her resume explaining how she came to run for office. She went on to explain how she was raised in a small town and came from a “strong” Evangelical hard working farm family. She went on to explain that her religion was such a strong influence on her that she abstained from sex until she got married. It was then I stopped her and ask her what her religion’s position on abortion. She told me that the teachings of her church DO NOT support abortion.

I then told her that I appreciate her stopping by however I would not vote for her. She looked puzzled actually tilting her head to one side and ask me “So your a one issue voter and are not interested in any of my other views?”. I said yes, but it’s not the issue you think. You think I will not vote for you because we disagree on on abortion. It’s your judgment and integrity I don’t trust. For me if you are willing to toss aside one of your core values to get elected how can I possibly trust you on any issue? She then explained that she didn’t think she should impose her religious views on others. I went on to tell her that again she didn’t understand the issue. I’m not asking her to impose her religious views on others I’m asking her to live them. I explained that she just spent several minutes attempting to convince me how her Evangelical upbringing has influenced her only to “throw it under the bus” when it comes to abortion. The conversation did move on to other issues, which we disagreed on, but I really don’t understand this contradiction.

Help me understand…..

Bogeyfre on November 3, 2008 at 1:52 PM

Sadly, many Orthodox Christians are likewise abandoning the pro-life vote in favor the less concretely defined, social-justice issues, which make them feel warm, fuzzy–and involved.
.
But all is not lost if Obama wins.
.
February of last year there was an excellent article in the Whistleblower Magazine entitled “How the Pro-Life Side Will Win the War” which ended thus:

All this in a climate in which repeated national polls reveal only one in four Americans agrees with unfettered abortion-on-demand as permitted by Roe v. Wade. A few years ago, America had about 2,000 abortion clinics; today there are fewer than 800. Physicians are forsaking the practice in droves.

Bottom line: Americans are increasingly repulsed by abortion.

And at this point all one can do is pray.

Matushka on November 3, 2008 at 1:52 PM

more pious than devout

that’s my take on RCs who go to mass every week and still vote Obama

funky chicken on November 3, 2008 at 1:53 PM

I also still somewhat support the right of the terminally ill to stop their suffering.
I may change on that though because my father-in-law is dying of thyroid cancer and he’s doing it with grace and dignity like i’ve never seen

annoyinglittletwerp on November 3, 2008 at 1:12 PM

I’m very sorry about your father-in-law.
I hope you do change your mind. As much as suffering like that is awful-& I have plenty of experience seeing it myself-all parts of life are precious. Even the awful suffering parts. The suffering of others teaches us compassion & love.
A person who is suffering may well want to end their life at that moment in time. But they are not thinking correctly bcs they are absorbed with their suffering.
That is where He comes in. There is more to us than our wants & desires. We must give ourselves over to him. Pain & suffering, joy & hope-all of it.
It is what makes us different from animals. It’s what makes us human.

Badger40 on November 3, 2008 at 1:53 PM

I’m so glad that most people are unwilling to be voting robots for their religion. They give themselves the gift of free will.

religion is a voluntary association…why stay in it if you don’t want to follow it’s dictates??

right4life on November 3, 2008 at 1:54 PM

oh and God gives us the gift of free will..

right4life on November 3, 2008 at 1:54 PM

MarkTheGreat on November 3, 2008 at 1:13 PM

Do you believe that there was an actual “Good Samaritan”, that the “Prodigal Son” was an actual, living, breathing person?

Yes. I was the Prodigal Son who was reconciled with his estranged mother as she lay dying and who forgave him his sin before she passed away.

As for Samaritans, they are all around us. If you were really Great, Mark, you have known this.

ManlyRash on November 3, 2008 at 1:55 PM

thuja on November 3, 2008 at 1:45 PM

You are so full of $hit that it isn’t funny.

They give themselves the gift of free will.

God gave us the gift of free will, dunderhead.

Elections would be a farce and we would live in a hellish theocracy if more people followed the logic of this open letter.

People do have a responsibility to act according to certain moral precepts.
Oh, I forgot, there are no moral precepts in your world. People are not allowed to bring moral precepts into the voting booth.

I sure don’t want America going down this path, and anyone who listens to this open letter takes us just one more step down that path.

You would prefer what path… worship of the state?
STFU.

God forgive me for my outbursts here. But this guy just set me off.

either orr on November 3, 2008 at 1:58 PM

ex-Democrat on November 3, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Sorry I’ve been away a few minutes.. lot’s of fancy cakes to finish… anyway
THANKS!
A tip for you regarding your girlfriend: she’s been programmed. You must try to undo the damage..let her know that voting Dem is not REALLY in her DNA. If she doesn’t choose to listen to reason, I have a sister…..

beththebaker on November 3, 2008 at 2:00 PM

I was once very religious.

To be honest, I am not religious. I attend a church, read the Bible, and pray. (the latter not done near enough sadly) None of that has to do with my faith. I have a relationship with God through Christ.

I do believe in the bible.

I’m glad you do.

I believe abortion is murder.

Me too

I never respected the Southern Baptist ways and views.

If you mean -self-righteous hypocritical actions and words? Well, it is more than just Southern Baptists or even Christians. Seriously, never confuse the folks who follow Christ with Christ Himself.

When I met my husband. That is why I fell in love with him. Not sure if you are being sarcastic or what?

Sorry, here is where I got confused at what you meant. Congratulations on finding a man who loves you and sounds like a good guy. Sarcastic, not sure when it was. I tend to hide serious things in a sense of fun sometimes. Did I respond to him earlier? If it was the Constitution thing? Then, no I was not kidding, I was serious. I am always willing to talk to someone – and listen as well to an opposing view. I try to be respectful to anyone’s opinion, especially a well-thought out one.

You pointed out that you do not like people who say one thing and do another. Hypocrites in other words. If it helps, I don’t think they like themselves much either. It is why people go into legalism. Following rules substitutes for having a relationship with God in a lot of ways.

I’m glad you are reading your Bible. I hope you can indeed find a church that is not unkind or judgmental, There are not perfect churches though or even churches that are fully-stocked with just kind and loving people. it is a sinful world we live in, that’s why we needed a Savior. We cannot do this on our own.

If I caused offense, it was not intended and hope you will forgive me.

He doesn’t need your so called ears. Don’t throw your stones on others. This is why I don’t talk about religion. There is one who thinks he is all mightier.

sheebe on November 3, 2008 at 1:41 PM

Honestly, I am confused by the first part and I’m not a stone-thrower. I love to talk about Christ, God, and even the Bible, but I rarely ever discuss religion. Religion is simply a way of doing something that is centered around something real or unreal. There is no point in talking about it.

Now, talking about how we got here and why we exist, those are important questions that need answers. Those, among others, I love to talk about.

Seriously, I hope I had not offended you before or in this.

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 2:01 PM

And at this point all one can do is pray.

Matushka on November 3, 2008 at 1:52 PM

Nope. You can make calls into battleground states from the comfort of your own home.

http://www.johnmccain.com/dashboard/

funky chicken on November 3, 2008 at 2:02 PM

Our Founding Fathers come to this land, WITH FAITH IN GOD, to escape religious persecution and experience freedom. The expression, “separation of church and state” has to do with the fact that that they did not want us to become a religious monarchy, like the countries they left. This country was founded by people who loved God. They plainly stated this fact in their writings. The course that some are trying to chart for America is leading us away from the Rock that this country was founded upon. Our basic fundamental rights, such as Sanctity of Life and Religious Freedom, are constantly under attack by an element of our society that seems to have no appreciation for this “Shining City on a Hill”. If this element gains power, we could go the way of the Roman Empire. I know this ol’ choir boy is preaching to the choir, but to all
lovers of this Blessed Land, Protestants, Catholics, and Jews, Stand Fast. God Bless America!

kingsjester on November 3, 2008 at 2:02 PM

Bottom line:

Satan is for Obama

SaintOlaf on November 3, 2008 at 2:02 PM

Ask a “Social Justice” Catholic the definition of Justice.

Their definition always brings in social class and material wealth, and therefore it has devolved almost completely into a parody of itself.

Justice is every person’s right to receive exactly his due. No more and no less. A poor man can commit injustice against a rich man and vice versa.

Our only defense against stealth Marxism is to teach Catholicism accurately.

jeff_from_mpls on November 3, 2008 at 2:02 PM

As for Samaritans, they are all around us. If you were really Great, Mark, you have known this.

ManlyRash on November 3, 2008 at 1:55 PM

yep, I don’t think Jesus made things up.

right4life on November 3, 2008 at 2:03 PM

Open question for any troll or “undecided”…

What good are all of the “social justice” issues if you don’t have the right to life?

Somebody. Anybody. Answer.

either orr on November 3, 2008 at 2:04 PM

more pious than devout

that’s my take on RCs who go to mass every week and still vote Obama

funky chicken on November 3, 2008 at 1:53 PM

You are so right. Is why I puzzled with my friends that claim they go by their teachings of the Catholic Church. Then they are hypnotized over BO. This is a fight for our Country! I never been so adamant before. McCain will win!
And some of my cousins who are Jewish. They to are for BO.

sheebe on November 3, 2008 at 2:08 PM

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:27 PM

Interesting, why would it un-nerve you to guide your every day decisions by a Christian Philosophy, after all, that is the philosophy this nation was founded under.

N4646W on November 3, 2008 at 1:49 PM

You mean Deism? It is not Christian Philosophy that so unnerves me, but it is when it is taken apart from Christ Himself. See, humanism (which is closely related) is something that goes bad quickly. Because if morales are unhinged from their foundation they cease to be Christian at all. I serve my fellow human beings not simply because it is the right thing to do, but because Christ impels me to. Not with a rod or whip, but simply because He has served me.
Am I good at it? Uhm… no. (laugh) Nor, despite my laugh, am I proud of that fact.
Now Christian Philosophy, which turned into the Social Gospel, quickly left behind the very Person that empowers it. That is why it makes me a it nervous to simply talk about a “philosophy.” Apologetics and Philosophy are wonderful, but they need to remain attached to the very reason that gives them purpose. The whole “do good because you want good done to you” gets corrupted awful fast when you decide you can get their goods by force if you have to – unless God is watching.

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 2:08 PM

unclesmrgol on November 3, 2008 at 1:41 PM

Thank You for your post. What more need be said.

Keyser-Soze on November 3, 2008 at 2:08 PM

I was a demonrat, Catholic for many years of my life. The Demoncrats threw me away. The cognitive dissonance is so very perplexing. How do Kennedy, Kerry et al. live with themselves. I remember my mom was the first to break from the Dems in the family when she voted for Buchanan. Biden, Kennedy and the rest of the Catholics have just become cultural Catholics. I was a union member once and the union called me to get me to vote for Gore, I strongly stated to them that I would have to answer for my vote for the rest of my life and I could not vote with the culture of death. The person that called me really did not get my point.

tessa on November 3, 2008 at 2:09 PM

You mean Deism?

deism isn’t the founding philosphy of this government. calling all the founders deists is an atheist tactic.

right4life on November 3, 2008 at 2:10 PM

By the way, Obama is a socialist (if not out-right Communist) telling others what to do and how to vote is intrenched in that mindset. Your protest is hilarious!

kybowexar on November 3, 2008 at 1:36 PM

He’s not a socialist; that’s just a last-minute attempt by McCain to try to knock him off his game. Obama told his supporters like myself that he would be called names the last few days of this election. But God knows McCain is only lying for political reasons.

username on November 3, 2008 at 2:11 PM

Either orr, we’ve previously had this debate. Please explain to me why, for the people posting on this blog, “having the right to own property, having the right to vote freely, having the right to attend a church/whatever of our own choice, having the right to express opinions freely, having the right to etc,…” is meaningless unless abortion is outlawed.

IMHO you are talking like a mindless hyperventalating (sic?) overwrought teenager.

jim m on November 3, 2008 at 2:11 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4


You must be logged in to post a comment.