Video: Dole, NRSC hammer Democrat for attending atheist fundraiser
posted at 1:40 pm on October 29, 2008 by Allahpundit
Dole’s ad is getting attention but it’s the NRSC’s that’s really something to see. Smart politics, especially in a southern state, and a lesson to Obamaphiles that for all the smears circulating on the fringe about The One being a Muslim, things could be worse. Evidently, if he were an atheist, the RNC itself would be running commercials hammering him for that fact.
It’s a lesson to conservative atheists, too. (All two percent of us.) This is what your dirty “godless money” is being used for.
Blowback
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Yes, that’s exactly what that is – semantics.
It is a negative assertion that is the basis of everything they say or do.
Look, find a Christian and ask them what they believe. Note all the positive assertions (I believe in God, in Christ His Son, etc. etc.)
Find a Muslim or a Buddhist or a Hindu what they believe in and every one will give you a positive assertion.
But not these guys – they BEGIN with a negative.
Which means that they don’t really believe in SOMETHING, they believe in the opposite of what someone else believes in.
In that matter, it’s just about the only “belief” structure that is completely reliant upon another belief structure.
Well then you should probably do more research before making a pronouncement.
As I said, there is enough direct and indirect evidence toward the existence of Jesus that there is no serious scholar who denies this existence.
It’s simply a non-starter as an argument.
And quite frankly, intellectually speaking it puts them side-by-side with those Christians who believe that either dinosaurs didn’t really exist or that we lived side-by-side with them.
Religious_Zealot on October 29, 2008 at 2:39 PM
actually, many on the Christian side argue exactly that. many Atheist borrow from the Christian worldview(morality for example) since they have zero source for morality for starters, and things they do in their own lives come straight from the Bible as the source.
jp on October 29, 2008 at 2:39 PM
Oy gevalt.
This is like that candidate that spoke at the Hitler birthday party during the primaries. (I’m not Godwinning her, I promise!) One hopes it more lack of information before accepting an invitation, than a conscious decision.
Even I’m uncomfortable with that level of proselytizing. What was she thinking?
Tanya on October 29, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Yes, it’s entirely possible for non-christians to live good, ethical lives without believing in the divinity of Christ. Many people do. However, they are not Christians. It is also possible for people, as in the case of Hitler for the sake of this arguemnt, to call themselves Christians and live un-Christain lives, completely spurning the example of Christ. They are not Christians either.
Trafalgar on October 29, 2008 at 2:40 PM
I will agree with this. I wouldn’t say any religion would consider them Saved, as nearly every religion requires belief as a prerequisite, but I will agree that an atheist with a moral viewpoint can lead as good and moral a life as a Christian. I’ve seen it, as I have several atheist friends whose only main difference from my personal morality is our belief or lack of one in a being of higher power.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 29, 2008 at 2:40 PM
I think Hagan is a member of an elitist Liberal Christian Church(PCUSA presbyterian). Look for her to spin this as a church goer, not an atheist, blah blah. Ignoring she attended the fundraiser
jp on October 29, 2008 at 2:41 PM
It’s disappointing to see any group of people proclaim that there is no God, but as a Christian, it is even moreso with the secular, leftist, atheist Jews. These were God’s chosen people, according to the Bible.
So, they are rejecting all of the people of faith around the world, not just Jews, but Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists.
What are the numbers, world wide, of people who reject the very notion of God? It must be miniscule. Anyone know?
Jaibones on October 29, 2008 at 2:44 PM
Oh, by the way, I love both commercials. I wouldn’t trust anyone in public office who believes that this world is an accident of chemistry. That’s just stupid.
Jaibones on October 29, 2008 at 2:46 PM
I’d even argue that some can lead a more moral life than the average Christian and understandably look down on Christianity for that reason.
Having morals is a personal choice, one that Christians have to make just as much as anyone else.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 2:48 PM
I thought muny luvin was the root of all Evil or summin. Guess holy muny is copacetic.
ronsfi on October 29, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Well, that was effed up. Where’s Dole running? Iran? Is she running for a seat in the Iranian senate?
If I would have known that meeting with an atheist disqualified you for office I would have set something up with Obama. My bad.
RightOFLeft on October 29, 2008 at 2:49 PM
Romans 2:15
jp on October 29, 2008 at 2:49 PM
Ding, round one.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 29, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Oh, I think those that wrote the letters that make up the new testament had good ideas and philosophies, but I think there is a lot of value in the two-millennia of thinkers (priests and monks) that followed. I’m generally impressed by the Catholic church, even if I think they are nursing that non-violence thing a bit much.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Were is the key word.
The jews are no longer the “people of God”.
The Christians are the “people of God”.
The jews lost that status as they rejected the Incarnate Word of God Himself and persecuted His followers.
Yes the Jews have been responsible for persecuting Christians for 2,000 years and they still do it to this day.
SaintOlaf on October 29, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Yes, but the standard for what is moral and what is not has to come from somewhere.
BigD on October 29, 2008 at 2:55 PM
Okay, people, which one of you left the basement door unlocked?
ManlyRash on October 29, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Well, the looking down on part might be considered immoral, but that depends on exactly what you mean by it.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Having morals is a personal choice, one that Christians have to make just as much as anyone else.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Yes, but the standard for what is moral and what is not has to come from somewhere.
BigD on October 29, 2008 at 2:55 PM
———
Morals did not originate with the Bible or any other religious handbook.
Dave Rywall on October 29, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Beyond Hitler, the Lutheran church historically provided some institutional support for the notion that Jews were natural enemies of the state. Sometimes the un-Christian actions may take generations to understand or properly condemn.
dedalus on October 29, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Hagan is threatening legal action over the ad
jp on October 29, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Do you really want to root out people who believe in God or gods? Do you want to force them to reject their beliefs? Or do you continue to believe in the right to the freedom of religion, the freedom of thought?
If you answered yes to the last question then I highly doubt that your money is really considered “dirty “godless money”". If you answer yes to either of the first two then yeah your money is as you said.
theguardianii on October 29, 2008 at 2:59 PM
Say what?
In the past 2000 years, the only time Jews have been in a position to persecute Christians is in Israel–and I don’t see a whole lot of evidence for that.
Don’t look at me–I cam in through the back.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 2:59 PM
Correct, they were simply codified in the Bible or other religions’ “handbooks”
Trafalgar on October 29, 2008 at 2:59 PM
I agree with you that morals did not originate from any book. But since you obviously think they originated somewhere, Dave, tell us your belief.
BigD on October 29, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Careful there. I think any honest evaluation will show that the Christian movement in the Roman Empire was one of the first attempts at civilized, or cosmopolitan, morality.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Namely, biological necessity.
RightOFLeft on October 29, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Morals originated from God, no matter which religion you believe in. In the case of Judaism and Christianity they were codofied in the Bible, principally in the 10 Commandments. What the atheists here fail to grasp is that God did not write the Bible. It was servants of God and believers who put these thoughts and beliefs into writing
Trafalgar on October 29, 2008 at 3:05 PM
I think Confucius would disagree.
RightOFLeft on October 29, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Where did morals originate, Dave?
ManlyRash on October 29, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Christopher Hitchens gets called out at the Corner recently on this topic, good stuff
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZGVlMjY3MzQxZDU3MDZkMjVkNTZmODJkMjI5NTdmZmM=
jp on October 29, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Chances are he won’t answer, BigD. Ever since I humilated him earlier this month, Dave has become a Drive-By Troll.
ManlyRash on October 29, 2008 at 3:07 PM
Exactly.
Morality for you is simply whatever you can get away with.
Because you believe you are a beast…you will act like one.
If murder and rape were lawful..you would do it.
SaintOlaf on October 29, 2008 at 3:07 PM
I agree with you that morals did not originate from any book. But since you obviously think they originated somewhere, Dave, tell us your belief.
BigD on October 29, 2008 at 3:01 PM
——
Hmmm…how about when people realized cooperation meant a better chance of survival, so they stopped being total as*holes to each other. It happened all over the globe in every culture whether a population was nomadic or not.
Dave Rywall on October 29, 2008 at 3:07 PM
Wow! Libby is gonna pull it out. You cannot go to Boston and hang out with atheists if you want to be senator of NC.
What was she thinking?
Sick.
Sapwolf on October 29, 2008 at 3:08 PM
I’m going to get banned if I respond to any of your future posts, so I’ll leave you to your beliefs.
RightOFLeft on October 29, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Distract him with a live chicken and I’ll go get the net.
ronsfi on October 29, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Careful there. I think any honest evaluation will show that the Christian movement in the Roman Empire was one of the first attempts at civilized, or cosmopolitan, morality.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:02 PM
———–
There were many many civilizations that rose and fell long before the Christians came along. There were varying codes of laws for each of them that guided everyday life.
Dave Rywall on October 29, 2008 at 3:09 PM
A very shallow explanation which completely ignores the essential goodness in people
Trafalgar on October 29, 2008 at 3:10 PM
Christianity os not a civilization, it is a religion. And every civilization that has existed premised its laws and moral standards on religious beliefs
Trafalgar on October 29, 2008 at 3:12 PM
A very shallow explanation which completely ignores the essential goodness in people
Trafalgar on October 29, 2008 at 3:10 PM
—–
Wrong. my opinion is completely and entirely based on human beings’ essential goodness.
Dave Rywall on October 29, 2008 at 3:12 PM
I’m sorry, but your opinion is based entirely on some sort of animalistic survival instinct
Trafalgar on October 29, 2008 at 3:14 PM
What part of “one of” did you not get?
Besides, there are a lot of problems with Confucius.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:14 PM
Nothing malicious. I just mean that some atheists feel superior in their morals to some Christians and are right to feel that way, because some Christians do not even live up to their own standards of decency.
And I don’t mean that as a prideful thing but just as an acknowledgment of facts.
I’m fairly certain that’s not the argument but that the argument instead is that moral originate from God.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 3:15 PM
He really isn’t worth it.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 3:18 PM
Exactly!
Trafalgar on October 29, 2008 at 3:18 PM
There are a lot of problems with Christianity.
I missed “one of,” which is embarrassing, but it’s still not true. Humans have been devising and revising the moral foundations of civilized life since, well, civilization arose. Unless you want to argue that civilization began with the fall of the Roman empire.
RightOFLeft on October 29, 2008 at 3:21 PM
Trafalgar is right, Dave. You said nothing about being innately good. In fact, what you said was the opposite, that human beings only decided to be moral because of its survival benefit.
That’s not good or evil. It’s merely survival.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 3:21 PM
And virtually all of them were means with which the rulers got what they wanted and maintained their power (even the democracies). They tended to be clannish and hierarchical, with some codification of revenge. The Christians have the distinction of promoting the idea of universal equality, and the focus on charity implies an awareness of a cosmopolitan environment.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:25 PM
Trafalgar is right, Dave. You said nothing about being innately good. In fact, what you said was the opposite, that human beings only decided to be moral because of its survival benefit.
That’s not good or evil. It’s merely survival.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 3:21 PM
————-
It’s both. Survival is best enjoyed with morals – morals that became more clear as they were experimented with. Gods and such were made up to explain things that were unexplainable and to keep people from being afraid of the dark.
Dave Rywall on October 29, 2008 at 3:26 PM
Morality purely and simply is about aligning ourselves with the Divine Uncreated Energies of God.
Christianity is not a fear based moral system the way that the atheists here are describing their own moral system(i.e. what they can get away with)
We purify ourselves because we are a temple..and we want to be a pure temple because then we can be a dwelling place of the Holy Spirit of God.
When all of our energies our fully aligned with the Divine Energies of God, we can then experience Deification (Theosis).
This is what Christianity is all about.
And this is what morality is all about.
SaintOlaf on October 29, 2008 at 3:30 PM
You’re arguing that morals only came about as a survival tool as opposed to goodness being innate.
Either humans are basically good, or we’re just good to keep ourselves from being killed. The two don’t go together.
And sure, God is just a fairy tale. Whatever you want to believe.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 3:30 PM
In the Mediterranean, I think, yes. Though perhaps “civilization” is not quite the idea I was trying to get through with “cosmopolitan:” it was the an early example of a country that covered many nations, with widespread travel, and a mixing of cultures. In a sense, it provoked people to distinguish morality from culture, and to look for the moral principles that would transcend cultural barriers.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:30 PM
“Hagan is an elder at the First Presbyterian Church in Greensboro, NC, has taught Sunday School and accompanied youth mission trips.”
SHE IS CLEARLY A GODLESS HAG
Dave Rywall on October 29, 2008 at 3:32 PM
Oops, now I missed something: “fall”
I was actually thinking about the raise of the Roman Empire.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:33 PM
You have me curious now. I’ve NEVER heard of this “Theosis” thing or these “divine energies” before. What religion are you?
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 29, 2008 at 3:36 PM
You’re like Noonan, et. al. I’ve got a boat load of jews voting for McCain. Can’t you save your hatred of us until after the election? Jeesh!
JiangxiDad on October 29, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Orthodox Christian
SaintOlaf on October 29, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Can I argue that being good makes us happy?
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Any particular denomination?
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 29, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Don’t feel too special. He hates plenty of other people as well.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 3:39 PM
I do not hate jews Jiangxi…I still love my enemies.
I was merely pointing out historical fact.
SaintOlaf on October 29, 2008 at 3:39 PM
I thought there was only one: Eastern Orthodox.
Am I wrong?
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:40 PM
Not to me, at least not being good just for the sake of being good. Even Mother Teresa had her dark days.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 3:40 PM
Its not the loving part we care about.
Its that “enemies” part that concerns us.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:42 PM
I don’t know. I’m trying to get as much info from Olaf as I can, so I can research. As I said, I’ve never heard of this “theosis” or “aligning with uncreated divine energies” before. It’s most certainly not what I practice, so I want to get as much info as I can from here then do more digging when I get home.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 29, 2008 at 3:42 PM
How about if I though in delayed gratification and long term planning?
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:43 PM
First Church of the Tin Foil Hat.
ronsfi on October 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Yes. The Oriental Orthodox and The Eastern Orthodox are in communion.
Antiochian Orthodox Church founded in Antioch by Saint Peter the first Bishop of Antioch.
http://www.antiochian.org/discoveringorthodoxchristianity
It has an unbroken unchanged Apostolic Succession going back to Jesus Christ.
SaintOlaf on October 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM
That does sound kind of new-agy. Though it could be just a stylized description of the “Holly Ghost,” right?
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:46 PM
And I am pointing out that your views of “historical facts” help explain why many Jews wrongly fear Christians, and wrongly vote Democrat because of it. So I repeat, if you want to both win the election, and continue your life of loving your enemies, ixnay on the ewjay stuff, just for a few more days.
JiangxiDad on October 29, 2008 at 3:48 PM
Possibly, but that’s not always “being good” either. Maybe if you were more specific.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 3:49 PM
One thing we know for sure, the atheists did not promise Kay Hagan salvation in return for her support.
Sergeant Tim on October 29, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Kk. Thanks for the link.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 29, 2008 at 3:54 PM
I can’t think of a snappy one liner that fits that bill, sorry.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 3:55 PM
No, but everyone should be weary of any groups that do.
It can be difficult. I was having a conversation a week or so ago with Madison Conservative, and we were making punny jokes about alcohol. He’d come back with some awesome ones after I thought we’d pushed it as far as was possible.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 3:59 PM
Was that the thread where R2L kept calling you a slut? I remember that, it was kind of funny, until the party crasher showed up.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 29, 2008 at 4:01 PM
Yeah, same one. Apparently by joking about getting a drink together, I was actually having sex and betraying my husband who was sitting next to me.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 4:03 PM
My becoming God (I assume that’s what deification means)is not good Judaism nor Christianity. Last I looked, I was created,not creator (won’t ever be either).
If good morals=good actions: Aren’t all the hospitals and such started by Christian folks? And the homeless shelters?
Dillo on October 29, 2008 at 4:09 PM
I keep getting Right4Life and RightofLeft mixed up (do I even have it right, now?)
I think one is more stable than the other, and I think they have opposing views on a lot of issues, but the cues I use to quickly identify names just don’t distinguish between the two.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 4:12 PM
St. Olaf–
Forgot to ask you something. If the Khalidi tape finally comes out, and as reported, includes Obama ripping the Jews a new one, are you gonna change your vote?
The enemy of my enemy kinda thing? Then you could love us both :)
JiangxiDad on October 29, 2008 at 4:15 PM
Or we’re innately good to keep ourselves from being killed.
The emergence of consciousness – of self-aware thought – changed the universe in some way that I can’t quite describe. This probably isn’t going to make a lot of sense, but things like “good”, “evil”, “love”, “pain” emerged along with our awareness as physical sensations. We have an emotional substance that mediates our relationships to the each other and to the world. Good is quantifiable and definable by how it effects the way we experience our universe.
I’ve never known someone that I believed took pleasure from doing an evil thing, even if they said afterward that they did.
RightOFLeft on October 29, 2008 at 4:18 PM
I’m deeply hurt, and it’s doubtful I’m any more stable than anyone else on here (except maybe St. O). So watch out ;).
RightOFLeft on October 29, 2008 at 4:20 PM
Come on man.
You think I’m losing Jewish votes by pointing out the fact that Jews have persecuted Christians for almost 2,000 years and continue to do so to this day?
What are you talking about?
The Jews in the USA know about the Khalidi tape and are still voting for Osama like 70%+!!
SaintOlaf on October 29, 2008 at 4:20 PM
check out the link I posted for a more precise definition.
Yes it is good Christianity. In fact it is the original,unchanged Christianity.
SaintOlaf on October 29, 2008 at 4:22 PM
…and not only that, I just saw a right2bright on another thread. I can’t keep you guys strait!
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 4:30 PM
Ugh.
You sickening lunatic.
MadisonConservative on October 29, 2008 at 4:37 PM
Oh, he hasn’t really even started ranting yet.
Though I suspect this thread has dried up.
Count to 10 on October 29, 2008 at 4:39 PM
Bright red lights flash and alarms go off whenever I hear someone say that they are following a better, or “original, unchanged Christianity.”
I think we stray from the point of the post here (which never happens on HA comments)…..Having said that…
http://www.equip.org/atf/cf/%7B9C4EE03A-F988-4091-84BD-F8E70A3B0215%7D/DE177.pdf
Dillo on October 29, 2008 at 4:42 PM
That’s much better, but Dave’s argument wasn’t that we’re always good but that we became good after realizing it would help us survive.
Which means that until we realized it would help us survive we weren’t good, which would do away with it being innate.
Besides, not everything that is good is beneficial for survival. It’s good to remain loyal to others, especially your mate, but survival has often meant being disloyal. Women have slept their way into safety or power, often misusing men in the process, as have men with women. Others have murdered people to save themselves, while others still have allowed others to live, knowing it could be their death.
Which was when?
If you don’t believe the people who say that, then you’re really only proving yourself right.
I could add my own stories where I did something evil and enjoyed it, but I’ve no reason to believe you’d trust me over others you likely know better.
But many others have said the same thing. Che wrote in his diary that he enjoyed killing. Many other mass murderers have said the same thing, which is why they defied the law knowing of the potential risks and killed anyway.
Esthier on October 29, 2008 at 4:43 PM
What sickens you Mad?
The fact that Jews still persecute Christians in Israel to this day?
I’m with you on that.
All we can do is show them the Love of Christ and hope that someday they will stop viewing us as enemies and stop persecuting us.
SaintOlaf on October 29, 2008 at 4:44 PM
That’s my bad. I should have figured a conservative site would feature a few “rights” in the screennames, but I thought I was being terribly clever. If I could edit the name I’d pick something equally not-very-clever but less confusing.
RightOFLeft on October 29, 2008 at 4:46 PM
So leave the party and the ideological movement if you don’t like it.
leetpriest on October 29, 2008 at 4:49 PM
What a stupid thing to say. There are some 5 or 6 million Jews in the US, maybe 40% are voters, and 60% of those at best will vote for Obama. That’s a little over a million votes. That’s not going to get him to the finish line.
No, St. Olaf. You’ll have to do more work in the CHRISTIAN community in America. That’s where the majority of Obama’s votes are coming from. Even if you exterminate every Jew, the electoral votes from the Jew states will still go to Obama.
So you ought to plan 5 Christian ovens, for each jew oven. Then you’ll live in the world your God tells you about.
JiangxiDad on October 29, 2008 at 4:51 PM
Dude, You’re losing it.
SaintOlaf on October 29, 2008 at 4:54 PM
I didn’t mean to argue DR’s case for him, I just wanted to offer an alternative.
I think about 2 million years ago, maybe even more recently. The whole problem with consciousness is that we don’t have a good theory of mind. Even think about it gives me a headache. It’s like trying to look up your own nose without a mirror.
In fairness, I haven’t met you or Che.
I’m thinking over the rest of it. I wonder all the time why people should do evil things, and all I’m certain of is that the question is hard as hell to answer.
RightOFLeft on October 29, 2008 at 5:02 PM
My bad, it’s 66% of jews support Obama not 70%.
Ummm.
You are right about some of the Christians though..
The Protestants and the Roman Catholics need to get it together pronto and come out and say
(I will give it to the Roman Catholics for trying even though their numbers are something like 56%/44% Mccain the Roman Catholics need to just listen to their Church)
BTW there are about 6 million Orthodox Christians in this country (not sure how many are eligible to vote) but they are ALL (99%+) voting for Mccain.
It is against the Church to vote for a radical infanticide supporter like Hussein O.
It is also against the Roman Catholic Church to vote for Hussein but only roughly half are listening evidently.
But you’re right Protestants need to make it loud and clear..stop obama.
SaintOlaf on October 29, 2008 at 5:04 PM
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