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Minneapolis bridge collapse: design failure

posted at 11:15 am on October 26, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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In the wake of the collapse of the St. Anthony Bridge collapse in August 2007, in which 13 people died, politicians around the state and across the country used the tragedy to blame Republicans for not raising taxes.  Amy Klobuchar, Elwyn Tinklenberg, and James Oberstar castigated Governor Tim Pawlenty for opposing a gas tax increase, which they claimed cut bridge maintenance short.  Politicians in both parties, and both presidential nominees, used the collapse to decry the lack of investment in infrastructure.  Pundits responded by demanding more federal money on transportation.

The only fly in the ointment?  The bridge fell from design flaws that existed from the beginning, and not a lack of maintenance:

Original designers of the Interstate 35W bridge in Minneapolis likely neglected to calculate the size of key gusset plates that eventually failed, a human mistake that culminated 40 years later when 13 people died after the span collapsed, federal safety investigators have found.

They also have determined that corrosion of certain gusset plates, extreme heat and shifting piers did not contribute to the bridge’s collapse on Aug. 1, 2007, according to sources with direct knowledge of the probe. In three weeks, investigators will present their findings to the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), which will publicly review the draft report in a hearing Nov. 13 at the board’s Washington headquarters. After that, the board will use the draft as the basis for its final report on the probable cause of the collapse and recommendations for preventing future disasters.

Had key steel gusset plates been designed properly — they were one-half inch thick instead of an inch — the bridge would have been able to withstand tons of concrete and steel added in two renovation projects as well as the 287-ton construction load on the bridge the day it collapsed, sources said.

Ironically, the bridge collapse got hastened by the maintenance being performed on it that day — thanks to the miscalculation of the strength of the gusset plates.

How will this be received?  We can guess based on the political attacks the NTSB has already taken from the “not enough taxes” crowd that attempted to pre-empt the investigation:

In January, NTSB Chairman Mark Rosenker was criticized by U.S. Rep. Jim Oberstar, D-Minn., and others for placing too much early emphasis on gusset plate failure as the potential cause. But the investigators’ findings appear to validate Rosenker’s early stance.

Oberstar, Klobuchar, Tinklenberg, and all of the others who attempted to exploit this tragedy for political gain should apologize publicly for their actions.  They couldn’t even wait until the victims got removed from the water before irresponsibly inflaming public opinion and demonstrating their engineering incompetence.  The Star Tribune should fire Nick Coleman, the columnist who waited six whole hours before blaming Taxpayers League chair David Strom for the deaths, and they should fire the editor who allowed that column to run.

I wrote extensively on this tragedy at Captain’s Quarters, and the posts are aggregated in one category.  From the beginning, Pawlenty showed real leadership and restraint, even when seemingly everyone in state and national office panicked.  Early on, the information gleaned from around the country pointed to inadequate gusset plates and a design mentality of the era that eschewed redundancy in favor of sleekness. The answers were at the ready for anyone who wanted to find them — which obviously did not include DFL leaders in Minnesota.

I hope that Sixth CD voters remember that when they consider Tinklenberg against current Rep. Michele Bachmann in nine days.  Hopefully, we’ll remember it when Klobuchar runs for re-election in 2012 — and maybe Tim Pawlenty might consider reminding us by running against her.  JRoosh has more at Shot in the Dark.


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A sober and thoughtful analysis, Ed. Unfortunately, it’s one that does not fit the current narrative or jibe with the Obamamania template that presently governs the news cycle in this country and, therefore, will not be echoed by other news organizations.

Nevertheless, I’m pleased by your tireless efforts and delighted to know that folks like you – true journalists – represent the avant-gardeof the New Media.

ManlyRash on October 26, 2008 at 11:21 AM

Very sad.

I always though engineers calculated the stress requirements and then multiplied them b y 100 or something just to make sure a structure could handle loads far beyond what normally would occur.

Is it worth it to go back to whoever worked on it in 1968 and ask questions?

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 11:24 AM

If only Bush hadn’t rushed us into war in Iraq, we would have had thicker gusset plates for use here at home.

(If Biden said it, the MSM would nod along sagely.)

snickelfritz on October 26, 2008 at 11:25 AM

If only Bush hadn’t rushed us into war in Iraq, we would have had thicker gusset plates for use here at home.

(If Biden said it, the MSM would nod along sagely.)

snickelfritz on October 26, 2008 at 11:25 AM
—–
Yeah, in 1968 when America was in Iraq.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 11:26 AM

Is it worth it to go back to whoever worked on it in 1968 and ask questions? – Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 11:24 AM

Perhaps, assuming any of the original design engineers are still around. I suspect that, absent immunity from prosecution for negligence, few would be very talkative.

ManlyRash on October 26, 2008 at 11:29 AM

So much for my salt theory of saltying the roads
in the winter and a weakening of the steel theory!
I was wrong!

But a design problem!

And Libs were trying to blame Governor Pawlenty,
typical!

canopfor on October 26, 2008 at 11:29 AM

Racism brought down that bridge. And until we accept each other in love, understanding, and yes, higher taxes – we, along with our infrastructure, will come tumbling down.
I’m just sayin……..

JeffinOrlando on October 26, 2008 at 11:30 AM

So much for my salt theory of saltying the roads
in the winter and a weakening of the steel theory!
I was wrong! But a design problem! – canopfor on October 26, 2008 at 11:29 AM

In many rural towns in Western Europe – particularly in Spain and Portugal – the locals continue to use bridges and aqueducts built by their Roman ancestors 2,000 years ago.

ManlyRash on October 26, 2008 at 11:32 AM

Yeah, in 1968 when America was in Iraq.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 11:26 AM

Ah, Davy, you of all people should know that liberal narrative trumps facts.

snickelfritz on October 26, 2008 at 11:41 AM

Roman ancestors 2,000 years ago.

ManlyRash on Oct 26,2008 at 11:32PM.

ManlyRash:Thats unbeleivable,yet so true!

I watched an episode that the Romans built a
road as well,I can’t recall how many miles though!

On youtube,Engineering an Empire has some great
shows on,that describes what your talking about!

And,ManlyRash:Top of the morning to ya,eh!

canopfor on October 26, 2008 at 11:42 AM

Obama’s “gusset plates” are paper thin, and untested.

Waiting for a Mahmoud or a Putin to stress.

And turn the U.S. into such a bridge.

profitsbeard on October 26, 2008 at 11:42 AM

If only Bush hadn’t rushed us into war in Iraq, we would have had thicker gusset plates for use here at home.

(If Biden said it, the MSM would nod along sagely.)

snickelfritz on October 26, 2008 at 11:25 AM
—–
Yeah, in 1968 when America was in Iraq.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 11:26 AM

Proof positive that liberal trolls have no sense of humor. Here’s some mud for your drywall.

Perhaps engineers should insist upon using Reardon Metal when reconstructing the bridge.

turfmann on October 26, 2008 at 11:42 AM

This article just reeks of facts. The public must never hear of this. Shh!

Mojave Mark on October 26, 2008 at 11:45 AM

Obama’s “gusset plates” are paper thin, and untested.

Joe Biden says they re-inforced them with that steel in his spine.

Of course, the real problem is the feathers in his head.

snickelfritz on October 26, 2008 at 11:46 AM

turfman at 11:42 AM-

Drywall forgets that Joe Biden had FDR (not yet president) going on TV (not yet available) in 1929 to calm the nation over the Stock Market collapse, so why not blame Bush for 1968 gusset plates?

profitsbeard on October 26, 2008 at 11:46 AM

And,ManlyRash:Top of the morning to ya,eh! – canopfor on October 26, 2008 at 11:42 AM

And the rest of the day to you, sir.

ManlyRash on October 26, 2008 at 11:46 AM

Obama’s “gusset plates”are paper thin,and untested.

profitsbeard on Oct 26,2008 at 11:42PM.

profitsbeard: Me thinks ACORN is the designer,engineers,
and contractors of Obama’s bridge!

Oh,and Safety Inspecters as well!

Let Hopey cross the bridge first!haha.

canopfor on October 26, 2008 at 11:48 AM

ManlyRash at 11:46 AM-

You’ll be cheered to know that the MSM Sunday shows are generally acknowledging that McCain might somehow win this, still.

They hate to admit it, but his team is not utterly dis-spirited, as they had hoped.

FIGHT ON!

profitsbeard on October 26, 2008 at 11:49 AM

canopfor at 11:48-

ACORN is nuts, but don’t forget-

Bill Ayers knows how to construct things.

Like Obama.

A COVERED Bridge to Marxism.

profitsbeard on October 26, 2008 at 11:53 AM

Yeah,in 1968

Dave RyWall on Oct 26,2008 at 11:26AM.

Dave RyWall:Since your a Canadian Liberal,and I’m
a Canadian Conservative,me thinks your
from Newfoundland?

Am I close?

canopfor on October 26, 2008 at 11:56 AM

See:
Residual Forces Blog: “What Did Tinklenberg Know, And When Did He Know It?” by Andy Aplikowski, June 16th, 2008 http://www.residualforces.com/2008/06/16/what-did-tinklenberg-know-and-when-did-he-know-it/

RBMN on October 26, 2008 at 11:57 AM

You’ll be cheered to know that the MSM Sunday shows are generally acknowledging that McCain might somehow win this, still. – profitsbeard on October 26, 2008 at 11:49 AM

Cheered? Hardly. I’m not thrilled by the prospect of a McCain presidency. Nevertheless, he is going to win. it is what it is.

ManlyRash on October 26, 2008 at 11:58 AM

ACORN is nuts…..

profitsbeard on Oct 26,2008 at 11:53AM.

profitsbeard: I nearly spit my coffee out,i got this
rush of horror,thinking of ManlyRash’s
Obama Titanic,and the rivets weren’t that
good of steel holding the plating,but now
maybe the nuts aren’t of good strength for
Obama’s bridge,oh my!

It’ll be a ticking time bomb,tick,tick to
Nov.4th,

then,KA-BLOOWIE!

canopfor on October 26, 2008 at 12:04 PM

There can be now doubt the bridge engineers were Republicans!

/s

MrScribbler on October 26, 2008 at 12:06 PM

…and speaking of original design flaws, there’s the post-primary assembly of the McCain campaign staff. There were some weak gusset plates installed there that couldn’t stand up to the stress either. Ad man Steve Schmidt being the notable exception.

RBMN on October 26, 2008 at 12:06 PM

wow mixing my two favorite things… engineering and castration of libtards… Beautiful Ed…
-
Gusset Plate inadequacy is criminal, probably around 1/100th of the iron in the bridge makes up the Gussets, these Integral parts of the bridge should be made to exceed intended use and doing so would be such a minimal cost increase, and that makes this criminal… as a design professional I do not take that statement lightly.
-
solution, independent third parties should review the designs of public works to ensure structural integrity, and review material specs to watch for short cuts in material quality. and the cost should come directly from the original bid.
-
I will say that I have not seen a lot of 1 inch thick gussets in my life… and if you look at a google search of bridge gussets you’ll agree most are smaller… that being said, the NTSB surely know a great deal more about the topic than I do… so I’ll trust them.

Kaptain Amerika on October 26, 2008 at 12:06 PM

I hope that Sixth CD voters remember that when they consider Tinklenberg against current Rep. Michele Bachmann in nine days.

Tinklenberg may have responded incorrectly but what has Bachmann done right to get elected?

barry norris on October 26, 2008 at 12:11 PM

I always though engineers calculated the stress requirements and then multiplied them by 100 or something just to make sure a structure could handle loads far beyond what normally would occur.

[Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 11:24 AM]

Well, that’s what results when you think rather than research. Design criteria, such as user loadings, already have prudent factors of safety for usage.

Design factors of safety are not for you to use to overload the structure. They are for the designers and the constructors to account for unknowns, particularly of the material kind, production and construction tolerances, production and construction produced stresses, time induced strength degradation, among others.

Dusty on October 26, 2008 at 12:12 PM

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 11:24 AM

I know you give and take a lot of grief here but thank for your thoughtfulness.

Cindy Munford on October 26, 2008 at 12:15 PM

You yahoos can’t even talk about a tragic bridge collapse without being partisan jacka*ses.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 12:15 PM

Tinklenberg may have responded incorrectly but what has Bachmann done right to get elected?

barry norris on October 26, 2008 at 12:11 PM

Barry, Barry, Barry… some times, much like Senator McCain in our Presidential election, simply NOT being the other guy if far more than enough.

CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”

CapedConservative on October 26, 2008 at 12:16 PM

You yahoos can’t even talk about a tragic bridge collapse without being partisan jacka*ses.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 12:15 PM

What’s the matter Dave, couldn’t Google find a Republican involved?

CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”

CapedConservative on October 26, 2008 at 12:17 PM

Well, that’s what results when you think rather than research. Design criteria, such as user loadings, already have prudent factors of safety for usage.

Design factors of safety are not for you to use to overload the structure. They are for the designers and the constructors to account for unknowns, particularly of the material kind, production and construction tolerances, production and construction produced stresses, time induced strength degradation, among others.

Dusty on October 26, 2008 at 12:12 PM
——-
Exactly – I thought there were well-known standards you HAD to follow when it came to infrastructure things. As well as checking and rechecking before final approvals are given to proceed.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 12:17 PM

What’s the matter Dave, couldn’t Google find a Republican involved?

CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”

CapedConservative on October 26, 2008 at 12:17 PM
——–
Thanks for proving my point, Captain Kool.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 12:18 PM

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 12:18 PM

So then you really couldn’t find one? As we’ve sadly learned from our opponents, during election season, EVERYTHING is partisan.

CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”

CapedConservative on October 26, 2008 at 12:19 PM

And Libs were trying to blame Governor Pawlenty,
typical!

canopfor on October 26, 2008 at 11:29 AM

Makes one wonder how much transportation budgets around the country had been raided for years…and what work had been put off for another year.

I know this was a design flaw, but here in Wisconsin shortly after the collapse, there was work on bridges all over the state. Some is still going on.

…after the transportation budget had been raided again and again over the years.

91Veteran on October 26, 2008 at 12:25 PM

Exactly – I thought there were well-known standards you HAD to follow when it came to infrastructure things. As well as checking and rechecking before final approvals are given to proceed.

[Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 12:17 PM]

You are hopeless, Dave.

Dusty on October 26, 2008 at 12:25 PM

Oh great, Bush and his time machine strike again. The one he used to fire Shinseki before his comments. The same one he used to make sure the levees wouldn’t be build correctly. He must have used it again to screw up this bridge. I mean, he MUST have a time machine since we all know all the above things are his fault.

Dave_d on October 26, 2008 at 12:26 PM

THIS is why EVERTIME Politicans and Journalists try to do Engineering – THEY FAIL!!

WHY didn’t Einstein develop the Special and General Theories of Relativity EARLIER? ……Why TAXES, of course!

Ask O’Reilly – WHY haven’t Engineers all over the country NOt been able to develop a source of Energy that violates the Second Law of Theromdynamics and transforms it from one form to another WITHOUT CREATING ANY WASTE? Why Taxes and Congress – AND “Big Oil” of COURSE!

IDIOTS!!!

Mark G. Williams, P.E

grtflmark on October 26, 2008 at 12:26 PM

Tinklenberg may have responded incorrectly but what has Bachmann done right to get elected?
barry norris on October 26, 2008 at 12:11 PM

She voted against the $850 billion bailout, a travesty we are now discovering will partially be used for such things as pay raises for bank employees and banks buying-out other banks.

Bishop on October 26, 2008 at 12:29 PM

Cheered? Hardly. I’m not thrilled by the prospect of a McCain presidency. Nevertheless, he is going to win. it is what it is.

I wouldn’t be cheered either; I would be positively ELATED with JOY because that means:

a) NObama; b) Sarah; and, c) the election of a patriot.

Let’s roll.

ex-Democrat on October 26, 2008 at 12:29 PM

canopfor at 11:48-

ACORN is nuts, but don’t forget-

Bill Ayers knows how to construct things.

Like Obama.

A COVERED Bridge to Marxism.

profitsbeard on October 26, 2008 at 11:53 AM

…and deconstruct things when it suits his ideological impulses.

91Veteran on October 26, 2008 at 12:29 PM

Cindy Munford on October 26, 2008 at 12:15 PM

No, he’s spewing his ignorance. Engineering safety factors are normally 2 or 3 (and can be less in extreme cases when cost is important).

gh on October 26, 2008 at 12:29 PM

Dave,

When people like Barney Frank start encouraging banks to make risky loans, by designing GSE policies that encourage GSEs to buy those risky loans from the banks, and hand the final risk off to taxpayers, then politics matters a whole lot.

RBMN on October 26, 2008 at 12:30 PM

You yahoos can’t even talk about a tragic bridge collapse without being partisan jacka*ses.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 12:15 PM

Are you referring to the jackasses mentioned in Ed’s post? The columnist? Oberstar? Tinkleberg?

91Veteran on October 26, 2008 at 12:32 PM

91Veteran on October 26, 2008 at 12:32 PM

No no no, Dryrot is only talking about anyone who doesn’t salivate over a photo of Odummy; democrats are never wrong about anything. Ever.

Bishop on October 26, 2008 at 12:37 PM

If you repeat the truth often enough, people may begin to believe it.

JiangxiDad on October 26, 2008 at 12:38 PM

[gh on October 26, 2008 at 12:29 PM]

Agreed.

Design factors of safety are not necessarily there after completion of the project to be readily used by the whimsy of others on a daily, weekly or yearly basis, much less fifty years later by other engineers and contractors.

Dusty on October 26, 2008 at 12:40 PM

gh on October 26, 2008 at 12:29 PM

Sorry but I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Cindy Munford on October 26, 2008 at 12:42 PM

In Tinklenberg’s case, he came out right after the bridge collapse like OJ demanding that the Los Angeles Police Department find his ex-wife’s killers before they get away. Tinklenberg: “(Since Minnesota history started in January of 2003,) have you looked at how Pawlenty’s policies caused this yet?”

RBMN on October 26, 2008 at 12:43 PM

“Early on, the information gleaned from around the country pointed to inadequate gusset plates and a design mentality of the era that eschewed redundancy in favor of sleekness.”

Sleekness is the wrong word. Anyone looking at the bridge and its gussets wouldn’t think: “Oh, those are some pretty sleek gussets!” Their length and width would be the same, only their thickness would be different and even one-inch thick gussets would have been dwarfed by the dimensions of the beams to which they were attached.

At half the thickness, the steel plate used for the gussets would cost significantly less for the material and also cost much less to install, which should be understood as the principal design benefit of using the thinner material. Where the design engineers erred was in that they did not account that the future loading of the bridge might exceed the gussets’ ability to sustain that loading.

On that count, Dusty’s explanation is dead on:

Design factors of safety are not for you to use to overload the structure. They are for the designers and the constructors to account for unknowns, particularly of the material kind, production and construction tolerances, production and construction produced stresses, time induced strength degradation, among others.

ironman on October 26, 2008 at 12:43 PM

You yahoos can’t even talk about a tragic bridge collapse without being partisan jacka*ses.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 12:15 PM

Why are you getting your panties all tied in a knot? When your boy Obama wins, you can flee from Harper and re-settle here. After he wins, no more bad things will happen. It’s only 9 more days til Paradise, but you don’t sound happy.

JiangxiDad on October 26, 2008 at 12:44 PM

They accuse the governor of being directly responsible for the deaths of 13 people. Then find out they’re wrong.

Where is the apology? Where is their honor? Their self-repect? Their dignity?

29Victor on October 26, 2008 at 12:50 PM

[ironman on October 26, 2008 at 12:43 PM]

For brevity and to not either question those who have done the investigation or create a brouhaha here, I left out the one reason that grtflmark {on October 26, 2008 at 12:26 PM] alludes to: (from Structural Steel Design, McCormac, ‘65, ‘71)

2) The methods of analysis are often subject to appreciable error.

Of course, this, along with the other items I mention, are defined by those in the profession and related fields, not a public, like Dave, ignorant of their meaning and allergic to Google.

Dusty on October 26, 2008 at 12:52 PM

Where is the apology? Where is their honor? Their self-repect? Their dignity?

29Victor on October 26, 2008 at 12:50 PM

That’s given up when the D goes after their name.

91Veteran on October 26, 2008 at 12:53 PM

That ground tremors that you feel are all of the trial lawyers running toward Minn.

OSUBuciz1 on October 26, 2008 at 12:56 PM

Why are you getting your panties all tied in a knot? When your boy Obama wins, you can flee from Harper and re-settle here. After he wins, no more bad things will happen. It’s only 9 more days til Paradise, but you don’t sound happy.

JiangxiDad on October 26, 2008 at 12:44 PM

now that’s something I’ll be using real soon… if everything is going to be so wonderful why are you democrats soooo upset all the time.

Kaptain Amerika on October 26, 2008 at 12:59 PM

Had key steel gusset plates been designed properly — they were one-half inch thick instead of an inch — the bridge would have been able to withstand tons of concrete and steel added in two renovation projects as well as the 287-ton construction load on the bridge the day it collapsed, sources said.

I obviously haven’t seen the report, but I take exception to the assertion that the gusset plates were improperly designed. In 1968, should the designers have accommodated the renovation loads and construction loads that would be applied to the bridge over the next 40 years? I’d like to hear the answer to that question before blame is heaped on the original designers. If blame has to be assigned, then let’s look at the engineers of the renovations and why they didn’t require that the gusset plate be beefed up prior to the additional weight of the repairs.

This reminds me of post 9/11 when the designers of the WTC was being criticized for not making the buildings strong enough to withstand impact from the terrorist’s planes. Of course planes that large did not exist when the WTC was built, and the the buildings were designed with the impact of airliners of the day considered. It isn’t really a design flaw if the designer can’t see the future, is it?

The bridge collapse and subsequent “rushes to judgement” are typical for these types of disasters. In the early 1980s, the walkways at the Hyatt Regency in Kansas City collapsed kill a large number of people. The immediate story in the news was that the people on the walkways were dancing and created a harmonic vibration that lead to the collapse. That was the story the media latched onto and wouldn’t let go until the truth actually came out.

Of course the real reason wasn’t so exotic. The detail of the walkways hangers was changed and the engineers did not realize it had been done. The walkways simple collapsed because they were overloaded and the hanger connections failed.

I don’t recall if there was a lot of finger pointing with regard to the “harmonic vibration” theory, but the media had it wrong from the start.

Mallard T. Drake on October 26, 2008 at 1:22 PM

CapedConservative on October 26, 2008 at 12:19 PM
RBMN on October 26, 2008 at 12:30 PM
Bishop on October 26, 2008 at 12:37 PM
JiangxiDad on October 26, 2008 at 12:44 PM
—————
I’m talking abut a bridge and engineering. You’re talking about Obama and democrats and stuff that’s entirely irrelevant.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 1:31 PM

Another example of the media getting it wrong is the tile failures of the Kingdome roof in Seattle. In 1994, several large fiber-cement tiles fell from the underside of the Kingdome just before a Mariners game. At the time of the failure, the exterior of the dome was undergoing power washing and reroofing. Immediately, the media decided that it was the power washing the was driving water thorough cracks in the concrete, soaking the tiles, and causing them to collapse. In the rush to judgment, the architect, contractor, and county officials were all scapegoated by the media.

Then an investigation was conducted and, surprise surprise, the reroofing work had nothing to do with the falling tiles. With out boring you with too much detail, the construction detail of how the tiles were set in the forms for the casting of the concrete dome caused problems. Many of the tile were not properly bonded to the concrete and over time some of the tiles fatigued and fell. In fact many other tile were ready to fall and they were no where near the reroofing work at the time of the failures.

Once again, media rushed to judgment, got it wrong, and some innocents get blamed unfairly.

Mallard T. Drake on October 26, 2008 at 1:32 PM

You are hopeless, Dave.

Dusty on October 26, 2008 at 12:25 PM
——-
I agreed with you. We were basically saying the same thing. Ewww how gross.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 1:32 PM

I thought…

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 12:17 PM

No you didn’t.

You yahoos can’t even talk about a tragic bridge collapse without being partisan jacka*ses.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 12:15 PM

The democrates made it a partisan thing before the sun set the day of the failure. Do some research.

I’m talking abut a bridge and engineering. You’re talking about Obama and democrats and stuff that’s entirely irrelevant.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 1:31 PM

Your reading comprehension is abysmal. Ed’s article is about the real reason for the bridge failure and how the democrates declared a different reason for the failure, and blamed the Republicans, before the sun set that day. Hence the discussion of the bridge in conjunction with “talking about Obama and the democrates”. Please do try to keep up, or better yet, go back and read the entitety of Ed’s post.

Yoop on October 26, 2008 at 2:33 PM

Milton Friedman said that if you put the government in charge of the Sahara, there would be a sand shortage in 5 years. So what happens when you put the government in charge of safety? The government’s construction project pushed the load way beyond the bridge’s limits. If the gas tax had been cut to zero, no work could have been done on the bridge and 13 lives would not have been lost. And the saddest part is that big government pols try to profit from the loss of life, and prefer to spin the tragedy as a tale of underfunded government, rather than telling the truth.

Mark30339 on October 26, 2008 at 2:52 PM

duh…

typing too quick.

democrates >>>> democrats (yikes!!! Not once, but twice!)

entitety >>>>> entirety

Yoop on October 26, 2008 at 3:00 PM

[Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008 at 1:32 PM]

If, in your agreement, you are simultaneously disavowing your first comment, then I am sorry for the comment.
—–

[Mallard T. Drake on October 26, 2008 at 1:22 PM]

I agree to a great extent with the point of your comment here, Mallard. Since I was a green young engineer wannabe, the use of factors of safety have been impressed upon me and they are not for others to use. Again, I go back to page 4, Chapter 1 — Introduction to Structural Steel Design, McCormac for the discusssion of factors of safety, and skipping past some standard calculation prefacing of it, there’s this,

“The student may feel that it is quite foolish to build a structure with a strength several times that which is theoretically required. As the years go by, however, he will learn that safety factors are subject to so many uncertainties that he may spend sleepless nights wondering if those he has used are sufficient (and he may join other designers in calling them factors of ignorance rather than factors of safety).”

I’ve already listed several of those uncertainties. Can anyone in the profession adjudge their designs to meet the design criteria decided on and that upon construction of it, none of their factor of safety be used up to any extent whatsoever; that the both the design and the construction has occurred flawlessly?

As with you, I haven’t followed the investigation. However, this from the Star Tribune, bothers me greatly:

“Had key steel gusset plates been designed properly — they were one-half inch thick instead of an inch — the bridge would have been able to withstand tons of concrete and steel added in two renovation projects as well as the 287-ton construction load on the bridge the day it collapsed, sources said.”

Unless MinnDOT specifically required that some additional future loads, both the added renovation loads and also the construction loads, be included in the original design and that the original factors of safety may be infringed at any time, then, IMHO, the investigation has failed to adequately address the failure. In addition, if this former is not the case or the latter is, they have seriously jeopardized the design use of factors of safety and will, unless it has already been adequately been addressed over time, initiate either heightened hold-harmless clause verbiage, or significant increased costs due to undefined additional factors of safety by, at the very least, design firms. I’d have to think about the potentiality for reaction by the construction industry.

Dusty on October 26, 2008 at 3:11 PM

This event with respect to the political reminds me of Carly Simon’s song, “You’re So Vain”. Politicians are so vain to think that they can/should be able to fix all problems (e.g. the economy, auto sales, school violence, bridge collapses, etc.), even problems they just make up (e.g. Global Warming). I recall the character John Milton/Satan in “The Devil’s Advocate” saying: “Vanity… definitely my favorite sin.”

Send_Me on October 26, 2008 at 4:42 PM

I don’t think people panicked. I think it was a feeding frenzy on the evil Republicans and economic conservatives of all parties.

burt on October 26, 2008 at 4:58 PM

Nick Coleman really is an idiot. In a normal world, he would have been fired from the Strib decades ago for mere stupidity. He is the poster child for “partisan hack”.

And yes, had you seen the post-accident political attacks by these grandstanding morons, it was truly crap. They should apologize not only to the Republicans who they attacked, but also to the employees of MDOT including the Commissioner who lost her job due to partisanship.

The people of Minnesota deserve better. Much better.

Dr. Bob on October 26, 2008 at 9:51 PM

You yahoos can’t even talk about a tragic bridge collapse without being partisan jacka*ses.

Dave Rywall on October 26, 2008

Hurricane Katrina says hello.

xblade on October 27, 2008 at 2:19 AM

This is a terrible report if all it does is look back to an ultimate cause, while ignoring all the proximate causes that led up to the collapse. The only bridge in U.S. history I can recall that failed due to a design flaw alone was the Tacoma Narrows bridge in Washington State that was torn to bits thanks to a wind that caused the span to fail, and that happened within months after it was completed. The 35W bridge may have indeed had gusset plates that were not adequate for the load it was under, but to claim after 40 years of use that the collapse was due to them alone is dubious on the face of it. As Jim Oberstar was quoted in the news this morning, that fact that the bridge, including the gusset plates, had been subject to corrosion, plus years of having more traffic load put on it than was set in the original specifications is something that has to be considered as well, and the circumstances of the day of the collapse (deck construction, temperature) were not just a coincidence I highly suspect. All of this leads up not to a conclusion of “well, it was a bad design from the beginning” but a process where decisions that were made over the years led to the state where a collapse could occur. I have not read the report in full, but I am not assured that it isn’t a whitewash.

starfleet_dude on October 27, 2008 at 8:59 AM

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