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	<title>Comments on: Elitism and the progressive tax system</title>
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		<title>By: skeeter</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1570072</link>
		<dc:creator>skeeter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 05:24:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1570072</guid>
		<description>Given the furor about “Joe the plumber”  I’ve written an open letter to Mr. Obama myself.  I think it is worth the read.  Maybe if Americans could take a closer look at what a small businessman is, they wouldn’t want politicians penalizing their success.  Feel free to forward it if you want…

Cory  

 

Mr. Obama,

    Given the uproar about the simple question asked you by Joe the plumber, and the persecution that has been heaped on him because he dared to question you, I find myself motivated to say a few things to you myself.  While Joe aspires to start a business someday, I already have started not one, but 4 businesses.  But first, let me introduce myself.  You can call me &quot;Cory the well driller&quot;.   I am a 54 year old high school graduate.  I didn&#039;t go to college like you, I was too ready to go &quot;conquer the world&quot; when I finished high school.  25 years ago at age 29, I started my own water well drilling business at a time when the economy here in East Texas was in a tailspin from the crash of the early 80&#039;s oil boom.  I didn&#039;t get any help from the government, nor did I look for any.  I borrowed what I could from my sister, my uncle, and even the pawn shop and managed to scrape together a homemade drill rig and a few tools to do my first job.  My businesses did not start as a result of privilege.  They are the result of my personal drive, personal ambition, self discipline, self reliance, and a determination to treat my customers fairly.  From the very start my business provided one other (than myself) East Texan a full time job.  I couldn&#039;t afford a backhoe the first few years (something every well drilling business had), so I and my helper had to dig the mud pits that are necessary for each and every job with hand shovels.  I had to use my 10 year old, 1/2 ton pickup truck for my water tank truck (normally a job for at least a 2 ton truck).  

    A year and a half after I started the business, I scraped together a 20% down payment to get a modest bank loan and bought a (28 year) old, worn out, slightly bigger drilling rig to allow me to drill the deeper water wells in my area.  I spent the next few years drilling wells with the rig while simultaneously rebuilding it between jobs.  Through these years I never knew from one month to the next if I would have any work or be able to pay the bills.  I got behind on my income taxes one year, and spent the next two years paying that back (with penalty and interest) while keeping up with ongoing taxes.  I got behind on my water well supply bill 2 different years (way behind the second time... $80,000.00), and spent over a year paying it back (each time) while continuing to pay for ongoing supplies C.O.D..  Of course, the personal stress endured through these experiences and years is hard to measure.  I do have a stent in my heart now to memorialize it all.

    I spent the next 10 years developing the reputation for being the most competent and most honest water well driller in East Texas.  2 years along the way, I hired another full time employee for the drilling business so that we could provide full time water well pump service as well as the well drilling.  Also, 3 years along the path, I bought a water well screen service machine from a friend, starting business # 2.  5 years later I made a business loan for $100,000.00 to build a new, higher production, computer controlled screen service machine.  I had designed the machine myself, and it didn&#039;t work out for 3 years so I had to make the loan payments without the benefit of any added income from the new machine.  No government program was there to help me with the payments, or to help me sleep at night as I lay awake wondering how I would solve my machine problems or pay my bills.  Finally, after 3 years, I got the screen machine working properly, and that provided another full time job for an East Texan in the screen service business.  

    2 years after that, I made another business loan, this time for $250,000.00, to buy another used drilling rig and all the support equipment needed to run another, larger, drill rig.  This provided another 2 full time jobs for East Texans.  Again, I spent a couple of years not knowing if I had made a smart move, or a move that would bankrupt me.  For the third time in 13 years, I had placed everything I owned on the line, risking everything, in order to build a business.  

    A couple of years into this, I came up with a bright idea for a new kind of mud pump, a fundamentally necessary pump used on water well drill rigs.  I spent my entire life savings to date (just $30,000.00), building a prototype of the pump and took it to the national water well convention to show it off.  Customers immediately started coming out of the woodworks to buy the pumps, but there was a problem.  I had depleted my assets making the prototype, and nobody would make me a business loan to start production of the new pumps.  With several deposits for pump orders in hand, and nowhere to go, I finally started applying for as many credit card as I could find and took cash withdrawals on these cards to the tune of over $150,000.00 (including modest loans from my dear sister and brother), to get this 3rd business going.  

    Yes, once again, I had everything hanging over the line in an effort to start another business.  I had never manufactured anything, and I had to design and bring into production a complex hydraulic machine from an untested prototype to a reliable production model (in six months).  How many nights I lay awake wondering if I had just made the paramount mistake of my life I cannot tell you, but there were plenty.  I managed to get the pumps into production, which immediately created another 2 full time jobs in East Texas.  Some of the models in the first year suffered from quality issues due to the poor workmanship of one of my key suppliers, so I and an employee (another East Texan employed) had to drive across the country to repair customers&#039; pumps, practically from coast to coast.  I stood behind the product, and made payments to all the credit cards that had financed me (and my brother and sister).  I spent the next 5 years improving and refining the product, building a reputation for the pump and the company, working to get the pump into drill rig manufacturers&#039; product lines, and paying back credit cards.  During all this time I continued to manage a growing water well business that was now operating 3 drill rig crews, and 2 well service crews.  Also, the screen service business continued to grow.  No government programs were there to help me, Mr. Obama, but that&#039;s ok, I didn&#039;t expect any, nor did I want any.  I was too busy fighting to make success happen to sit around waiting for the government to help me.      

    Now, we have been manufacturing the mud pumps for 7 years, my combined businesses employ 32 full time employees, and distribute $5,000,000.00 annually through the local economy.  Now, just 4 months ago I borrowed $1,254,000.00, purchasing computer controlled machining equipment to start my 4th business, a production machine shop.  The machine shop will serve the mud pump company so that we can better manufacture our pumps that are being shipped worldwide.  Of course, the machine shop will also do work for outside companies as well.  This has already produced 2 more full time jobs, and 2 more should develop out of it in the next few months.  This should work out, but if it doesn&#039;t it will be because you, and the other professional politicians like yourself, will have destroyed our countrys’ (and the world) economy with your meddling with mortgage loan programs through your liberal manipulation and intimidation of loaning institutions to make sure that unqualified borrowers could get  mortgages.  You see, at the very time when I couldn&#039;t get a business loan to get my mud pumps into production, you were working with Acorn and the Community Reinvestment Act programs to make sure that unqualified borrowers could buy homes with no down payment, and even no credit or worse yet, bad credit.  Even the infamous, liberal, Ninja loans (No Income, No Job or Assets).  While these unqualified borrowers were enjoying unrealistically low interest rates, I was paying 22% to 24% interest on the credit cards that I had used to provide me the funds for the mud pump business that has created jobs for more East Texans.  It&#039;s funny, because after 25 years of turning almost every dime of extra money back into my businesses to grow them, it has been only in the last two years that I have finally made enough money to be able to put a little away for retirement, and now the value of that has dropped 40% because of the policies you and your ilk have perpetrated on our country. 

    You see, Mr. Obama, I&#039;m the guy you intend to raise taxes on.  I&#039;m the guy who has spent 25 years toiling and sweating, fretting and fighting, stressing and risking, to build a business and get ahead.  I&#039;m the guy who has been on the very edge of bankruptcy more than a dozen times over the last 25 years, and all the while creating more and more jobs for East Texans who didn’t want to take a risk, and would not demand from themselves what I have demanded from myself.  I&#039;m the guy you characterize as &quot;the Americans who can afford it the most&quot; that you believe should be taxed more to provide income redistribution &quot;to spread the wealth&quot; to those who have never toiled, sweated, fretted, fought, stressed, or risked anything.   You want to characterize me as someone who has enjoyed a life of privilege and who needs to pay a higher percentage of my income than those who have bought into your entitlement culture.  I resent you, Mr. Obama, as I resent all who want to use class warfare as a tool to advance their political career.  What&#039;s worse, each year more Americans buy into your liberal entitlement culture, and turn to the government for their hope of a better life instead of themselves.  Liberals are succeeding through more than 40 years of collaborative effort between the predominant liberal media, and liberal indoctrination programs in the public school systems across our land.

    What is so terribly sad about this is this.  America was made great by people who embraced the one-time American culture of self reliance, self motivation, self determination, self discipline, personal betterment, hard work, risk taking.  A culture built around the concept that success was in reach of every able bodied American who would strive for it.  Each year that less Americans embrace that culture, we all descend together.  We descend down the socialist path that has brought country after country ultimately to bitter and unremarkable states.  If you and your liberal comrades in the media and school systems would spend half as much effort cultivating a culture of can-do across America as you do cultivating your entitlement culture, we could see Americans at large embracing the conviction that they can elevate themselves through personal betterment, personal achievement, and self reliance.  You see, when people embrace such ideals, they act on them.  When people act on such ideals, they succeed.  All of America could find herself elevating instead of deteriorating.  But that would eliminate the need for liberal politicians, wouldn&#039;t it, Mr. Obama?  The country would not need you if the country was convinced that problem solving was best left with individuals instead of the government.  You and all your liberal comrades have got a vested interested in creating a dependent class in our country.  It is the very business of liberals to create an ever expanding dependence on government.  What&#039;s remarkable is that you, who have never produced a job in your life, are going to tax me to take more of my money and give it to people who wouldn&#039;t need my money if they would get off their entitlement mentality asses and apply themselves at work, demand more from themselves, and quit looking to liberal politicians to raise their station in life.  

You see, I know because I&#039;ve had them work for me before.  Hundreds of them over these 25 years.  People who simply will not show up to work on time.  People who just will not work 5 days in a week, much less, 6 days.  People always looking for a way to put less effort out.  People who actually tell me that they would do more if I just would first pay them more.  People who take off work to sit in government offices to apply to get free government handouts (gee, I wonder how things would have turned out for them if they had spent that time earning money and pleasing their employer?).  You see, all of this comes from your entitlement mentality culture.  

Oh, I know you will say I am uncompassionate.  Sorry, Mr. Obama, wrong again.  You see, I&#039;ve seen what the average percentage of your income has been given to charities over the years of 2000 to 2004 (ignoring the years you started running for office - can you pronounce “politically motivated”), you averaged less than 1% annually.  And your running mate, Joe Biden, averaged less than ¼% of his annual income in charitable contributions over the last 10 years.  Like so many liberals, the two of you want to give to the needy, just as long as it is someone else’s money you are giving to them.  I won’t say what I have given to charities over the last 25 years, but the percentage is several times more than you and Joe Biden… combined (don’t you just hate goggle?).  Tell me again how you feel my pain.

In short, Mr. Obama, your political philosophies represent everything that is wrong with our country.  You represent the culture of government dependence instead of self reliance;  Entitlement mentality instead of personal achievement;  Penalization of the successful to reward the unmotivated;  Political correctness instead of open mindedness and open debate.  If you are successful, you may preside over the final transformation of America from being the greatest and most self-reliant culture on earth, to just another country of whiners and wimps, who sit around looking to the government to solve their problems.  Like all of western Europe.  All countries on the decline.  All countries that, because of liberal socialistic mentalities, have a little less to offer mankind every year.

God help us...

Cory Miller

just a ordinary, extraordinary American, the way a lot of Americans used to be.

P.S. Yes, Mr. Obama, I am a real American...  www.cmillerdrilling.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given the furor about “Joe the plumber”  I’ve written an open letter to Mr. Obama myself.  I think it is worth the read.  Maybe if Americans could take a closer look at what a small businessman is, they wouldn’t want politicians penalizing their success.  Feel free to forward it if you want…</p>
<p>Cory  </p>
<p>Mr. Obama,</p>
<p>    Given the uproar about the simple question asked you by Joe the plumber, and the persecution that has been heaped on him because he dared to question you, I find myself motivated to say a few things to you myself.  While Joe aspires to start a business someday, I already have started not one, but 4 businesses.  But first, let me introduce myself.  You can call me &#8220;Cory the well driller&#8221;.   I am a 54 year old high school graduate.  I didn&#8217;t go to college like you, I was too ready to go &#8220;conquer the world&#8221; when I finished high school.  25 years ago at age 29, I started my own water well drilling business at a time when the economy here in East Texas was in a tailspin from the crash of the early 80&#8217;s oil boom.  I didn&#8217;t get any help from the government, nor did I look for any.  I borrowed what I could from my sister, my uncle, and even the pawn shop and managed to scrape together a homemade drill rig and a few tools to do my first job.  My businesses did not start as a result of privilege.  They are the result of my personal drive, personal ambition, self discipline, self reliance, and a determination to treat my customers fairly.  From the very start my business provided one other (than myself) East Texan a full time job.  I couldn&#8217;t afford a backhoe the first few years (something every well drilling business had), so I and my helper had to dig the mud pits that are necessary for each and every job with hand shovels.  I had to use my 10 year old, 1/2 ton pickup truck for my water tank truck (normally a job for at least a 2 ton truck).  </p>
<p>    A year and a half after I started the business, I scraped together a 20% down payment to get a modest bank loan and bought a (28 year) old, worn out, slightly bigger drilling rig to allow me to drill the deeper water wells in my area.  I spent the next few years drilling wells with the rig while simultaneously rebuilding it between jobs.  Through these years I never knew from one month to the next if I would have any work or be able to pay the bills.  I got behind on my income taxes one year, and spent the next two years paying that back (with penalty and interest) while keeping up with ongoing taxes.  I got behind on my water well supply bill 2 different years (way behind the second time&#8230; $80,000.00), and spent over a year paying it back (each time) while continuing to pay for ongoing supplies C.O.D..  Of course, the personal stress endured through these experiences and years is hard to measure.  I do have a stent in my heart now to memorialize it all.</p>
<p>    I spent the next 10 years developing the reputation for being the most competent and most honest water well driller in East Texas.  2 years along the way, I hired another full time employee for the drilling business so that we could provide full time water well pump service as well as the well drilling.  Also, 3 years along the path, I bought a water well screen service machine from a friend, starting business # 2.  5 years later I made a business loan for $100,000.00 to build a new, higher production, computer controlled screen service machine.  I had designed the machine myself, and it didn&#8217;t work out for 3 years so I had to make the loan payments without the benefit of any added income from the new machine.  No government program was there to help me with the payments, or to help me sleep at night as I lay awake wondering how I would solve my machine problems or pay my bills.  Finally, after 3 years, I got the screen machine working properly, and that provided another full time job for an East Texan in the screen service business.  </p>
<p>    2 years after that, I made another business loan, this time for $250,000.00, to buy another used drilling rig and all the support equipment needed to run another, larger, drill rig.  This provided another 2 full time jobs for East Texans.  Again, I spent a couple of years not knowing if I had made a smart move, or a move that would bankrupt me.  For the third time in 13 years, I had placed everything I owned on the line, risking everything, in order to build a business.  </p>
<p>    A couple of years into this, I came up with a bright idea for a new kind of mud pump, a fundamentally necessary pump used on water well drill rigs.  I spent my entire life savings to date (just $30,000.00), building a prototype of the pump and took it to the national water well convention to show it off.  Customers immediately started coming out of the woodworks to buy the pumps, but there was a problem.  I had depleted my assets making the prototype, and nobody would make me a business loan to start production of the new pumps.  With several deposits for pump orders in hand, and nowhere to go, I finally started applying for as many credit card as I could find and took cash withdrawals on these cards to the tune of over $150,000.00 (including modest loans from my dear sister and brother), to get this 3rd business going.  </p>
<p>    Yes, once again, I had everything hanging over the line in an effort to start another business.  I had never manufactured anything, and I had to design and bring into production a complex hydraulic machine from an untested prototype to a reliable production model (in six months).  How many nights I lay awake wondering if I had just made the paramount mistake of my life I cannot tell you, but there were plenty.  I managed to get the pumps into production, which immediately created another 2 full time jobs in East Texas.  Some of the models in the first year suffered from quality issues due to the poor workmanship of one of my key suppliers, so I and an employee (another East Texan employed) had to drive across the country to repair customers&#8217; pumps, practically from coast to coast.  I stood behind the product, and made payments to all the credit cards that had financed me (and my brother and sister).  I spent the next 5 years improving and refining the product, building a reputation for the pump and the company, working to get the pump into drill rig manufacturers&#8217; product lines, and paying back credit cards.  During all this time I continued to manage a growing water well business that was now operating 3 drill rig crews, and 2 well service crews.  Also, the screen service business continued to grow.  No government programs were there to help me, Mr. Obama, but that&#8217;s ok, I didn&#8217;t expect any, nor did I want any.  I was too busy fighting to make success happen to sit around waiting for the government to help me.      </p>
<p>    Now, we have been manufacturing the mud pumps for 7 years, my combined businesses employ 32 full time employees, and distribute $5,000,000.00 annually through the local economy.  Now, just 4 months ago I borrowed $1,254,000.00, purchasing computer controlled machining equipment to start my 4th business, a production machine shop.  The machine shop will serve the mud pump company so that we can better manufacture our pumps that are being shipped worldwide.  Of course, the machine shop will also do work for outside companies as well.  This has already produced 2 more full time jobs, and 2 more should develop out of it in the next few months.  This should work out, but if it doesn&#8217;t it will be because you, and the other professional politicians like yourself, will have destroyed our countrys’ (and the world) economy with your meddling with mortgage loan programs through your liberal manipulation and intimidation of loaning institutions to make sure that unqualified borrowers could get  mortgages.  You see, at the very time when I couldn&#8217;t get a business loan to get my mud pumps into production, you were working with Acorn and the Community Reinvestment Act programs to make sure that unqualified borrowers could buy homes with no down payment, and even no credit or worse yet, bad credit.  Even the infamous, liberal, Ninja loans (No Income, No Job or Assets).  While these unqualified borrowers were enjoying unrealistically low interest rates, I was paying 22% to 24% interest on the credit cards that I had used to provide me the funds for the mud pump business that has created jobs for more East Texans.  It&#8217;s funny, because after 25 years of turning almost every dime of extra money back into my businesses to grow them, it has been only in the last two years that I have finally made enough money to be able to put a little away for retirement, and now the value of that has dropped 40% because of the policies you and your ilk have perpetrated on our country. </p>
<p>    You see, Mr. Obama, I&#8217;m the guy you intend to raise taxes on.  I&#8217;m the guy who has spent 25 years toiling and sweating, fretting and fighting, stressing and risking, to build a business and get ahead.  I&#8217;m the guy who has been on the very edge of bankruptcy more than a dozen times over the last 25 years, and all the while creating more and more jobs for East Texans who didn’t want to take a risk, and would not demand from themselves what I have demanded from myself.  I&#8217;m the guy you characterize as &#8220;the Americans who can afford it the most&#8221; that you believe should be taxed more to provide income redistribution &#8220;to spread the wealth&#8221; to those who have never toiled, sweated, fretted, fought, stressed, or risked anything.   You want to characterize me as someone who has enjoyed a life of privilege and who needs to pay a higher percentage of my income than those who have bought into your entitlement culture.  I resent you, Mr. Obama, as I resent all who want to use class warfare as a tool to advance their political career.  What&#8217;s worse, each year more Americans buy into your liberal entitlement culture, and turn to the government for their hope of a better life instead of themselves.  Liberals are succeeding through more than 40 years of collaborative effort between the predominant liberal media, and liberal indoctrination programs in the public school systems across our land.</p>
<p>    What is so terribly sad about this is this.  America was made great by people who embraced the one-time American culture of self reliance, self motivation, self determination, self discipline, personal betterment, hard work, risk taking.  A culture built around the concept that success was in reach of every able bodied American who would strive for it.  Each year that less Americans embrace that culture, we all descend together.  We descend down the socialist path that has brought country after country ultimately to bitter and unremarkable states.  If you and your liberal comrades in the media and school systems would spend half as much effort cultivating a culture of can-do across America as you do cultivating your entitlement culture, we could see Americans at large embracing the conviction that they can elevate themselves through personal betterment, personal achievement, and self reliance.  You see, when people embrace such ideals, they act on them.  When people act on such ideals, they succeed.  All of America could find herself elevating instead of deteriorating.  But that would eliminate the need for liberal politicians, wouldn&#8217;t it, Mr. Obama?  The country would not need you if the country was convinced that problem solving was best left with individuals instead of the government.  You and all your liberal comrades have got a vested interested in creating a dependent class in our country.  It is the very business of liberals to create an ever expanding dependence on government.  What&#8217;s remarkable is that you, who have never produced a job in your life, are going to tax me to take more of my money and give it to people who wouldn&#8217;t need my money if they would get off their entitlement mentality asses and apply themselves at work, demand more from themselves, and quit looking to liberal politicians to raise their station in life.  </p>
<p>You see, I know because I&#8217;ve had them work for me before.  Hundreds of them over these 25 years.  People who simply will not show up to work on time.  People who just will not work 5 days in a week, much less, 6 days.  People always looking for a way to put less effort out.  People who actually tell me that they would do more if I just would first pay them more.  People who take off work to sit in government offices to apply to get free government handouts (gee, I wonder how things would have turned out for them if they had spent that time earning money and pleasing their employer?).  You see, all of this comes from your entitlement mentality culture.  </p>
<p>Oh, I know you will say I am uncompassionate.  Sorry, Mr. Obama, wrong again.  You see, I&#8217;ve seen what the average percentage of your income has been given to charities over the years of 2000 to 2004 (ignoring the years you started running for office &#8211; can you pronounce “politically motivated”), you averaged less than 1% annually.  And your running mate, Joe Biden, averaged less than ¼% of his annual income in charitable contributions over the last 10 years.  Like so many liberals, the two of you want to give to the needy, just as long as it is someone else’s money you are giving to them.  I won’t say what I have given to charities over the last 25 years, but the percentage is several times more than you and Joe Biden… combined (don’t you just hate goggle?).  Tell me again how you feel my pain.</p>
<p>In short, Mr. Obama, your political philosophies represent everything that is wrong with our country.  You represent the culture of government dependence instead of self reliance;  Entitlement mentality instead of personal achievement;  Penalization of the successful to reward the unmotivated;  Political correctness instead of open mindedness and open debate.  If you are successful, you may preside over the final transformation of America from being the greatest and most self-reliant culture on earth, to just another country of whiners and wimps, who sit around looking to the government to solve their problems.  Like all of western Europe.  All countries on the decline.  All countries that, because of liberal socialistic mentalities, have a little less to offer mankind every year.</p>
<p>God help us&#8230;</p>
<p>Cory Miller</p>
<p>just a ordinary, extraordinary American, the way a lot of Americans used to be.</p>
<p>P.S. Yes, Mr. Obama, I am a real American&#8230;  <a href="http://www.cmillerdrilling.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.cmillerdrilling.com</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1567468</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:03:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1567468</guid>
		<description>This guy is a tool.
There are different kinds of elitism. My brother is a retired school teacher, lower middle class INTELLECTUAL elitist who thinks that he won&#039;t get taxed more to pay for entitled people who may not even be citizens and/or appreciate the money even Tommy gives them now.
Tommy can you hear me? 
Brains do not not a sensible man make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This guy is a tool.<br />
There are different kinds of elitism. My brother is a retired school teacher, lower middle class INTELLECTUAL elitist who thinks that he won&#8217;t get taxed more to pay for entitled people who may not even be citizens and/or appreciate the money even Tommy gives them now.<br />
Tommy can you hear me?<br />
Brains do not not a sensible man make.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: electric-rascal</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1566200</link>
		<dc:creator>electric-rascal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 04:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1566200</guid>
		<description>Off topic, but good stuff: &lt;a href=&quot;http://abcnews.go.com/2020/stossel&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;John Stossel&#039;s Guide to Politics 20/20 show from Oct. 17th&lt;/a&gt; in 5 parts.

Gist: The larger the government, the more things are screwed up; government needs to get out of our way!

He has a demo of giving skaters instruction at an ice rink... beginners, pros and all in between all skated just fine, but when Stossel or an olymic skating expert attempted to guide everyone it became all screwed up.

Also shows how private charities are very successful in rebuilding New Orleans homes, but government-run efforts are a failure and a farse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Off topic, but good stuff: <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/2020/stossel" rel="nofollow">John Stossel&#8217;s Guide to Politics 20/20 show from Oct. 17th</a> in 5 parts.</p>
<p>Gist: The larger the government, the more things are screwed up; government needs to get out of our way!</p>
<p>He has a demo of giving skaters instruction at an ice rink&#8230; beginners, pros and all in between all skated just fine, but when Stossel or an olymic skating expert attempted to guide everyone it became all screwed up.</p>
<p>Also shows how private charities are very successful in rebuilding New Orleans homes, but government-run efforts are a failure and a farse.</p>
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		<title>By: Obama 2001 Bombshell Redistribution of Wealth Audio Uncovered &#171; Mcnorman&#8217;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1566184</link>
		<dc:creator>Obama 2001 Bombshell Redistribution of Wealth Audio Uncovered &#171; Mcnorman&#8217;s Weblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 04:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1566184</guid>
		<description>[...] Joe asked the right question. Joe the Plumber’s objection resonates.  Barack Obama wants government to determine what is excessive wealth and confiscate it because government will “spread the wealth” better than the individuals who earned it. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Joe asked the right question. Joe the Plumber’s objection resonates.  Barack Obama wants government to determine what is excessive wealth and confiscate it because government will “spread the wealth” better than the individuals who earned it. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: unseen</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1566181</link>
		<dc:creator>unseen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 04:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1566181</guid>
		<description>must listen to audio of Obama in 2001 talking about 40 acres and a mule. or in modern terms spreading the wealth around.
http://minx.cc/?post=276607</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>must listen to audio of Obama in 2001 talking about 40 acres and a mule. or in modern terms spreading the wealth around.<br />
<a href="http://minx.cc/?post=276607" rel="nofollow">http://minx.cc/?post=276607</a></p>
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		<title>By: skewred.com &#187; The 95% Myth</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1565939</link>
		<dc:creator>skewred.com &#187; The 95% Myth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 01:45:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1565939</guid>
		<description>[...] reading this article at Hot Air about the progressive tax system, I wondered about the table contained inside.  Obama [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reading this article at Hot Air about the progressive tax system, I wondered about the table contained inside.  Obama [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Obama and 7 Things God Hates: &#171; Riggword Weblog</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1565881</link>
		<dc:creator>Obama and 7 Things God Hates: &#171; Riggword Weblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 00:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1565881</guid>
		<description>[...] twenty years of sitting under the tutelage of Reverend Jeremiah Wright, his stance on abortions, class envy taxes, same sex marriage, and acceptance of forces that hate Christianity have all been severely divisive [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] twenty years of sitting under the tutelage of Reverend Jeremiah Wright, his stance on abortions, class envy taxes, same sex marriage, and acceptance of forces that hate Christianity have all been severely divisive [...]</p>
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		<title>By: sethstorm</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1565606</link>
		<dc:creator>sethstorm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 22:35:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1565606</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
if i wanted to start a company where would i go??
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Follow the regulations, and the Rust Belt states are fine.  The talent is there- provided you don&#039;t purposefully disqualify every citizen for your H1/L1 venture.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
People in ohio and michigan and pennsylvania still do not get it! why is that jobs are fleeing the u.s. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The way that the jobs left Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania and such have only given a desire for revenge.  After about 30 years of receiving little more than harm from trade, and having no means to stop industries from leaving, they finally get a chance to stop it cold.  There was no buy-in for them.  The rise of offshoring in 2003 only made the issue a national, far-reaching one versus just a &quot;Rust Belt&quot; one.  

There wouldn&#039;t be vengeance if those who paid so little in taxes were treated with a lot more respect than is afforded to them in this economy.  This doesn&#039;t mean those on welfare so much as it is those who have worked and see it go to some far-off place in the world.  Follow that up with any replacement being far-off at best (or nonexistent at worst), and they&#039;ll want any means including tax policy changes to halt the exodus.

  It is not so much the amount of taxes paid, it is the amount of influence afforded to the top n%.  It&#039;s not just Soros, it is anyone who has done such deeds - moving capital faster than the citizen can move makes for very bad policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
if i wanted to start a company where would i go??
</p></blockquote>
<p>Follow the regulations, and the Rust Belt states are fine.  The talent is there- provided you don&#8217;t purposefully disqualify every citizen for your H1/L1 venture.</p>
<blockquote><p>
People in ohio and michigan and pennsylvania still do not get it! why is that jobs are fleeing the u.s.
</p></blockquote>
<p>The way that the jobs left Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania and such have only given a desire for revenge.  After about 30 years of receiving little more than harm from trade, and having no means to stop industries from leaving, they finally get a chance to stop it cold.  There was no buy-in for them.  The rise of offshoring in 2003 only made the issue a national, far-reaching one versus just a &#8220;Rust Belt&#8221; one.  </p>
<p>There wouldn&#8217;t be vengeance if those who paid so little in taxes were treated with a lot more respect than is afforded to them in this economy.  This doesn&#8217;t mean those on welfare so much as it is those who have worked and see it go to some far-off place in the world.  Follow that up with any replacement being far-off at best (or nonexistent at worst), and they&#8217;ll want any means including tax policy changes to halt the exodus.</p>
<p>  It is not so much the amount of taxes paid, it is the amount of influence afforded to the top n%.  It&#8217;s not just Soros, it is anyone who has done such deeds &#8211; moving capital faster than the citizen can move makes for very bad policy.</p>
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		<title>By: marklmail</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1565309</link>
		<dc:creator>marklmail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1565309</guid>
		<description>Economies work better from the bottom up. Look at Cuba. Obama is a liar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Economies work better from the bottom up. Look at Cuba. Obama is a liar.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveMG</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1565257</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1565257</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;but to mass describe taxes as penalties is illogical.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And I never &quot;mass described&quot; taxes as penalties.

I said the use of the taxex to manipulate economic activity, e.g., the real world application, was penalizing people.

&lt;blockquote&gt;law enforcement is penalizing (you can get a ticket)?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sure, if you act improperly, you&#039;ll get penalized.

Just as with the tax code. If you engage in improper economic activity, you&#039;ll be penalized by having to pay more taxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>but to mass describe taxes as penalties is illogical.</p></blockquote>
<p>And I never &#8220;mass described&#8221; taxes as penalties.</p>
<p>I said the use of the taxex to manipulate economic activity, e.g., the real world application, was penalizing people.</p>
<blockquote><p>law enforcement is penalizing (you can get a ticket)?</p></blockquote>
<p>Sure, if you act improperly, you&#8217;ll get penalized.</p>
<p>Just as with the tax code. If you engage in improper economic activity, you&#8217;ll be penalized by having to pay more taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveMG</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1565252</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1565252</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You guys have a weird way of describing penalties. VolMagic is at least nicer because he gives us shades of colors, but to mass describe taxes as penalties is illogical.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sorry, you have a weird, i.e., unrealistic, view of the way taxes are imposed under our system. &lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;em&gt;Not&lt;/em&gt; the textbook definition of taxes; the real world application of taxes.

Taxes are&lt;em&gt; not &lt;/em&gt;simply the government&#039;s take of a percentage of one&#039;s taxable income.

Taxes are used to influence - penalize or reward - economic activity.

It is this use of the tax code that invites corruption and distorts the market.

By limiting as much as possible the ability of the government to manipulate the tax code, we&#039;ll also mitigate the abuses of that power. 

You have a naive view of taxes as simply being the price we pay for civilization (Holme&#039;s characterization). But they are much more than that. To ignore how they are actually used in the real world is to ignore the potential abuse inherent with that use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You guys have a weird way of describing penalties. VolMagic is at least nicer because he gives us shades of colors, but to mass describe taxes as penalties is illogical.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sorry, you have a weird, i.e., unrealistic, view of the way taxes are imposed under our system. <em></em><em>Not</em> the textbook definition of taxes; the real world application of taxes.</p>
<p>Taxes are<em> not </em>simply the government&#8217;s take of a percentage of one&#8217;s taxable income.</p>
<p>Taxes are used to influence &#8211; penalize or reward &#8211; economic activity.</p>
<p>It is this use of the tax code that invites corruption and distorts the market.</p>
<p>By limiting as much as possible the ability of the government to manipulate the tax code, we&#8217;ll also mitigate the abuses of that power. </p>
<p>You have a naive view of taxes as simply being the price we pay for civilization (Holme&#8217;s characterization). But they are much more than that. To ignore how they are actually used in the real world is to ignore the potential abuse inherent with that use.</p>
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		<title>By: TomLawler</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1565245</link>
		<dc:creator>TomLawler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1565245</guid>
		<description>am i the only one who gets it?  how can obama give 95% of the workers a tax cut?  what in fact obama is doing is buying 40% of all voters in the u.s.  am i the only one who undestands taxes?

taxes and subsidies define our economics.  the fact is that no one except the consumer pays taxes.

if i wanted to start a copany where would i go??  whould i invests millions of dollars in the u.s. economy.  no i would not!!

People in ohio and michigan and pennsavania still do not get it! why is that jobs are fleeing the u.s. 


taxes more taxes and yet more taxes!!  



this is a fact no one pays taxes except the poor who need to buy everyday neccessities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>am i the only one who gets it?  how can obama give 95% of the workers a tax cut?  what in fact obama is doing is buying 40% of all voters in the u.s.  am i the only one who undestands taxes?</p>
<p>taxes and subsidies define our economics.  the fact is that no one except the consumer pays taxes.</p>
<p>if i wanted to start a copany where would i go??  whould i invests millions of dollars in the u.s. economy.  no i would not!!</p>
<p>People in ohio and michigan and pennsavania still do not get it! why is that jobs are fleeing the u.s. </p>
<p>taxes more taxes and yet more taxes!!  </p>
<p>this is a fact no one pays taxes except the poor who need to buy everyday neccessities.</p>
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		<title>By: ChooseTheHero.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Rich Do Not Benefit Disproportionately</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1565240</link>
		<dc:creator>ChooseTheHero.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Rich Do Not Benefit Disproportionately</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 19:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1565240</guid>
		<description>[...] Morrissey over at  Hot Air points to a Tax Founation study of the 2005 federal income tax returns as he takes Tommy to task [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Morrissey over at  Hot Air points to a Tax Founation study of the 2005 federal income tax returns as he takes Tommy to task [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jl</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1565091</link>
		<dc:creator>jl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:55:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1565091</guid>
		<description>As I recall from my academic years, the philosophical underpinnings for a progressive tax system came from the Utilitarians (e.g. John Stuart Mill, Jeremy Bentham).  The idea was that each person should contribute an equal quantity of lost &lt;em&gt;utility &lt;/em&gt; to the running of the government.  The fact that there is a diminishing marginal utility for wealth suggested to the utilitarians that the wealthy would have to pay more in nominal terms in order to contribute the same amount in lost utility.  

The utilitiarians also believed that there was some absolute (as opposed to relative) measure of utility that would allow society to be ordered according to precise mathematical techniques for maximizing aggregate utility.  What they missed is the fact that, while an individual may evidence diminishing marginal utility, there is actually no method for absolutely measuring utility in a way that is comparable from person to person.  This is the implication of Kenneth Arrow&#039;s aptly named &quot;Impossibility Theorem&quot;.  Hence it is not possible to determine how progressive taxes &quot;should&quot; be.  So progressive taxation cannot be justified on a &quot;greatest utility for the greatest number&quot; basis.  What is left is tax system without any coherent moral justification, that has become nothing more than a tool for ensuring control over the government&#039;s ability to coerce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I recall from my academic years, the philosophical underpinnings for a progressive tax system came from the Utilitarians (e.g. John Stuart Mill, Jeremy Bentham).  The idea was that each person should contribute an equal quantity of lost <em>utility </em> to the running of the government.  The fact that there is a diminishing marginal utility for wealth suggested to the utilitarians that the wealthy would have to pay more in nominal terms in order to contribute the same amount in lost utility.  </p>
<p>The utilitiarians also believed that there was some absolute (as opposed to relative) measure of utility that would allow society to be ordered according to precise mathematical techniques for maximizing aggregate utility.  What they missed is the fact that, while an individual may evidence diminishing marginal utility, there is actually no method for absolutely measuring utility in a way that is comparable from person to person.  This is the implication of Kenneth Arrow&#8217;s aptly named &#8220;Impossibility Theorem&#8221;.  Hence it is not possible to determine how progressive taxes &#8220;should&#8221; be.  So progressive taxation cannot be justified on a &#8220;greatest utility for the greatest number&#8221; basis.  What is left is tax system without any coherent moral justification, that has become nothing more than a tool for ensuring control over the government&#8217;s ability to coerce.</p>
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		<title>By: mycowardice</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1565085</link>
		<dc:creator>mycowardice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 16:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1565085</guid>
		<description>CapedConservative,

That&#039;s interesting statistics, although I would love to a broader view than just the top 400.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CapedConservative,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s interesting statistics, although I would love to a broader view than just the top 400.</p>
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		<title>By: CapedConservative</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1564908</link>
		<dc:creator>CapedConservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 14:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1564908</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Could you also publish the wealth distribution matching those numbers?

mycowardice on October 25, 2008 at 12:38 PM

&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There is turnover of &quot;the wealthy&quot;.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/11/churnin-and-turnin-high-turnover-in.html

The point of your question is to treat &quot;the wealthy&quot; as some club with a secret decoder ring that doesn&#039;t let other people in.... this couldn&#039;t be more wrong.  The general &quot;Amercian dream&quot; is to work hard to achieve some degree of wealth.  How well you perform in that effort is a huge determinate of the result.  That is why we have the turnover mentioned in the Forbes article.  Income redistribution will help put a stop to this turnover by making &quot;wealthy&quot; more difficult to achieve for everyone except the truly ultru-rich liberals living off a trust fund.

CC - BHO:  &quot;my Muslim faith&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Could you also publish the wealth distribution matching those numbers?</p>
<p>mycowardice on October 25, 2008 at 12:38 PM</p>
</blockquote>
<p>There is turnover of &#8220;the wealthy&#8221;.</p>
<p><a href="http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/11/churnin-and-turnin-high-turnover-in.html" rel="nofollow">http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/11/churnin-and-turnin-high-turnover-in.html</a></p>
<p>The point of your question is to treat &#8220;the wealthy&#8221; as some club with a secret decoder ring that doesn&#8217;t let other people in&#8230;. this couldn&#8217;t be more wrong.  The general &#8220;Amercian dream&#8221; is to work hard to achieve some degree of wealth.  How well you perform in that effort is a huge determinate of the result.  That is why we have the turnover mentioned in the Forbes article.  Income redistribution will help put a stop to this turnover by making &#8220;wealthy&#8221; more difficult to achieve for everyone except the truly ultru-rich liberals living off a trust fund.</p>
<p>CC &#8211; BHO:  &#8220;my Muslim faith&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: cobrakai99</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1564355</link>
		<dc:creator>cobrakai99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 04:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1564355</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Given the opportunity, would any of these liberals give up their incomes, slash their personal wealth, so that everyone on their street would bring home the exact same amount of cash each payday? I doubt it.

What is indeed unfair is to take from those who have earned it to give to those who do not earn it. [Take a look at Obama and Biden&#039;s charitable contributions over the years. Slim. Appallingly slim. As do most liberals, they believe that giving is a function of government, not of the individual.]

coldwarrior on October 25, 2008 at 10:51 AM&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is the same argument I use with all of my liberal friends all the time.  If redistribution is so fair, whay are the people that want it so much not already giving their money to those that need it already to set the example.  None of these people give large amounts to charity, maybe time but rarely money.  Some of the largest philanthropist have also always been the greatest capitalists.  Think J.P. Morgan, Carnegie, J.D. Rockafeller, even Bill Gates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Given the opportunity, would any of these liberals give up their incomes, slash their personal wealth, so that everyone on their street would bring home the exact same amount of cash each payday? I doubt it.</p>
<p>What is indeed unfair is to take from those who have earned it to give to those who do not earn it. [Take a look at Obama and Biden's charitable contributions over the years. Slim. Appallingly slim. As do most liberals, they believe that giving is a function of government, not of the individual.]</p>
<p>coldwarrior on October 25, 2008 at 10:51 AM</p></blockquote>
<p>This is the same argument I use with all of my liberal friends all the time.  If redistribution is so fair, whay are the people that want it so much not already giving their money to those that need it already to set the example.  None of these people give large amounts to charity, maybe time but rarely money.  Some of the largest philanthropist have also always been the greatest capitalists.  Think J.P. Morgan, Carnegie, J.D. Rockafeller, even Bill Gates.</p>
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		<title>By: mycowardice</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1563913</link>
		<dc:creator>mycowardice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1563913</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;SteveMG on October 25, 2008 at 6:57 PM&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am not backtracking. If your statement is &#039;Taxes are penalties&#039;, I disagree. My statement that &#039;Taxes are not penalties&#039; still stand. For example, some &#039;taxes&#039; give you more money than you paid in. These would not be penalties, right?

Anyways, what does it mean, as neutral as possible?

Are you for or against 401ks and IRAs not being taxed when they grow? Are you for or against deductions for interest on mortgages? Or donations? Or health care expenses? Or tax filing fees? etc.

Taxes are simply a way to levy money to pay for things. If you want to talk about specific provisions that are really penalties (like cashing out your 401k too early or filing your taxes late), I get that. But to generalize that all taxes are penalties makes no sense. Are you &#039;penalized&#039; when you buy a movie ticket? or pay a toll on a road?

You guys have a weird way of describing penalties. VolMagic is at least nicer because he gives us shades of colors, but to mass describe taxes as penalties is illogical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>SteveMG on October 25, 2008 at 6:57 PM</p></blockquote>
<p>I am not backtracking. If your statement is &#8216;Taxes are penalties&#8217;, I disagree. My statement that &#8216;Taxes are not penalties&#8217; still stand. For example, some &#8216;taxes&#8217; give you more money than you paid in. These would not be penalties, right?</p>
<p>Anyways, what does it mean, as neutral as possible?</p>
<p>Are you for or against 401ks and IRAs not being taxed when they grow? Are you for or against deductions for interest on mortgages? Or donations? Or health care expenses? Or tax filing fees? etc.</p>
<p>Taxes are simply a way to levy money to pay for things. If you want to talk about specific provisions that are really penalties (like cashing out your 401k too early or filing your taxes late), I get that. But to generalize that all taxes are penalties makes no sense. Are you &#8216;penalized&#8217; when you buy a movie ticket? or pay a toll on a road?</p>
<p>You guys have a weird way of describing penalties. VolMagic is at least nicer because he gives us shades of colors, but to mass describe taxes as penalties is illogical.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveMG</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1563780</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1563780</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;My point is that taxes, generally are not penalties.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You&#039;re backtracking now with the &quot;generally&quot; qualifier.

Taxes are often used by politicians to reward and penalize economic activity. In the worst conditions, they reward their friends and punish their enemies.

Or they reward some types of activities while punishing others.

I am for a tax code that is as neutral &lt;em&gt;as possible&lt;/em&gt;. That neither favors or disfavors economic activity. Bradley/Kemp tax reform of 1986 was a good start (&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;).

Again, to state that &quot;taxes are not penalties&quot; ignores how they are currently applied in this country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>My point is that taxes, generally are not penalties.</p></blockquote>
<p>You&#8217;re backtracking now with the &#8220;generally&#8221; qualifier.</p>
<p>Taxes are often used by politicians to reward and penalize economic activity. In the worst conditions, they reward their friends and punish their enemies.</p>
<p>Or they reward some types of activities while punishing others.</p>
<p>I am for a tax code that is as neutral <em>as possible</em>. That neither favors or disfavors economic activity. Bradley/Kemp tax reform of 1986 was a good start (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Reform_Act_of_1986" rel="nofollow">link</a>).</p>
<p>Again, to state that &#8220;taxes are not penalties&#8221; ignores how they are currently applied in this country.</p>
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		<title>By: VolMagic</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1563672</link>
		<dc:creator>VolMagic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1563672</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;My point is that taxes, generally are not penalties&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Correct. Taxes fund the acitivites of the government.

However, there is such a thing as exhorbinant taxation. This is a penalty in that it helps no one and hurts everyone. It&#039;s where you draw the line, natch, that makes taxes a penalty or not.

Also, there are taxes like the death tax, which a purely a penalty. There are also luxury/sin taxes, which a penalties. Do you smoke? The ridiculous price of ciggarettes is a direct result of taxes as penalties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>My point is that taxes, generally are not penalties</p></blockquote>
<p>Correct. Taxes fund the acitivites of the government.</p>
<p>However, there is such a thing as exhorbinant taxation. This is a penalty in that it helps no one and hurts everyone. It&#8217;s where you draw the line, natch, that makes taxes a penalty or not.</p>
<p>Also, there are taxes like the death tax, which a purely a penalty. There are also luxury/sin taxes, which a penalties. Do you smoke? The ridiculous price of ciggarettes is a direct result of taxes as penalties.</p>
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		<title>By: VolMagic</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1563654</link>
		<dc:creator>VolMagic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1563654</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;American citizens are taxed wherever they live.

mycowardice on October 25, 2008 at 12:43 PM
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

LOL.

That is the funniest thing I&#039;ve read in weeks.

Thanks for the laugh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>American citizens are taxed wherever they live.</p>
<p>mycowardice on October 25, 2008 at 12:43 PM
</p></blockquote>
<p>LOL.</p>
<p>That is the funniest thing I&#8217;ve read in weeks.</p>
<p>Thanks for the laugh.</p>
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		<title>By: mycowardice</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1563621</link>
		<dc:creator>mycowardice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 22:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1563621</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The tax code is riddled with penalties for certain economic activity (taking your IRA out for example) while rewarding other economic activity.

It’s not just done to raise revenues. It’s also written to influence (reward/penalize) economic activity.

Surely you must know this?

SteveMG on October 25, 2008 at 4:42 PM&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Using your logic, law enforcement is penalizing (you can get a ticket)? Your library account is penalizing (you can get a fine)?

My point is that taxes, generally are not penalties. But within the tax system you can find penalties (like say for filling late). As for your IRA example, the reason why there is a penalty for withdrawing early is that it goes against the goal of the IRA. Are you also for dismantling ever single program like 401k or IRAs that give an incentive to save? How about tax deductions for interest on mortgages or donations, are you against those too?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The tax code is riddled with penalties for certain economic activity (taking your IRA out for example) while rewarding other economic activity.</p>
<p>It’s not just done to raise revenues. It’s also written to influence (reward/penalize) economic activity.</p>
<p>Surely you must know this?</p>
<p>SteveMG on October 25, 2008 at 4:42 PM</p></blockquote>
<p>Using your logic, law enforcement is penalizing (you can get a ticket)? Your library account is penalizing (you can get a fine)?</p>
<p>My point is that taxes, generally are not penalties. But within the tax system you can find penalties (like say for filling late). As for your IRA example, the reason why there is a penalty for withdrawing early is that it goes against the goal of the IRA. Are you also for dismantling ever single program like 401k or IRAs that give an incentive to save? How about tax deductions for interest on mortgages or donations, are you against those too?</p>
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		<title>By: Mcguyver</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1563522</link>
		<dc:creator>Mcguyver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1563522</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I read different blogs to get different perspectives and to keep up with the &lt;strong&gt;arguments&lt;/strong&gt; on the Left, usually at sites with a mix of contributors like AOL’s Political Machine.  Tommy Christopher both blogs and reports at the site, and while I disagree strenuously with Tommy, &lt;strong&gt;he’s a good writer&lt;/strong&gt; and &lt;strong&gt;almost&lt;/strong&gt; always worth a read. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

There&#039;s your problem right there, Ed.  

Thinking that there is &lt;em&gt;even sometimes,&lt;/em&gt; a redeeming value in their writings is like saying that the crops in communist Russia, et al were natural and organic, and, therefore good for you. 

It misses the point because it&#039;s &lt;em&gt;the overall living conditions in all of life that is the issue here.&lt;/em&gt;

And it&#039;s writers like the above that absolutely &lt;strong&gt;do not contribute&lt;/strong&gt; to the promotion, of a &lt;em&gt;better&lt;/em&gt; conserving of the founding principles, in our day, &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt;, as such are not worth the broadband they are printed on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I read different blogs to get different perspectives and to keep up with the <strong>arguments</strong> on the Left, usually at sites with a mix of contributors like AOL’s Political Machine.  Tommy Christopher both blogs and reports at the site, and while I disagree strenuously with Tommy, <strong>he’s a good writer</strong> and <strong>almost</strong> always worth a read. </p></blockquote>
<p>There&#8217;s your problem right there, Ed.  </p>
<p>Thinking that there is <em>even sometimes,</em> a redeeming value in their writings is like saying that the crops in communist Russia, et al were natural and organic, and, therefore good for you. </p>
<p>It misses the point because it&#8217;s <em>the overall living conditions in all of life that is the issue here.</em></p>
<p>And it&#8217;s writers like the above that absolutely <strong>do not contribute</strong> to the promotion, of a <em>better</em> conserving of the founding principles, in our day, <em>and</em>, as such are not worth the broadband they are printed on.</p>
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		<title>By: McCain&#8217;s &#8220;Joe the Plumber-Socialist&#8221; Strategy Falls Flat &#171; The Political Page</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1563482</link>
		<dc:creator>McCain&#8217;s &#8220;Joe the Plumber-Socialist&#8221; Strategy Falls Flat &#171; The Political Page</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 21:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1563482</guid>
		<description>[...] McCain&#8217;s accusation of socialism regarding Obama&#8217;s tax policy is off the mark, in my opinion.  It&#8217;s intellectually dishonest.  If you want to read some arguments for and against the progressive tax system, check out Ed Morrissey and Tommy Christopher here.    [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] McCain&#8217;s accusation of socialism regarding Obama&#8217;s tax policy is off the mark, in my opinion.  It&#8217;s intellectually dishonest.  If you want to read some arguments for and against the progressive tax system, check out Ed Morrissey and Tommy Christopher here.    [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SteveMG</title>
		<link>http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/25/elitism-and-the-progressive-tax-system/comment-page-2/#comment-1563391</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveMG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 20:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hotair.com/?p=31936#comment-1563391</guid>
		<description>Senator Obama wants to raise the capital gains tax &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; to increase revenues but to make it more &quot;fair.&quot; Again, he&#039;s not interested in raising more revenues or generating more economic activity, he wants to make what he sees as &quot;unfair&quot; taxes more &quot;fair.&quot;

Put otherwise, he wants to use the tax code to penalize those who are acting unfairly by benefitting from the lower rates.

Taxes as penalties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Senator Obama wants to raise the capital gains tax <em>not</em> to increase revenues but to make it more &#8220;fair.&#8221; Again, he&#8217;s not interested in raising more revenues or generating more economic activity, he wants to make what he sees as &#8220;unfair&#8221; taxes more &#8220;fair.&#8221;</p>
<p>Put otherwise, he wants to use the tax code to penalize those who are acting unfairly by benefitting from the lower rates.</p>
<p>Taxes as penalties.</p>
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