Pethokoukis on 401(k) Demolition: Socialism
posted at 2:50 pm on October 23, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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US News columnist James Pethokoukis has one word for the nationalization of tax-deferred retirement plans: socialism. He can’t quite believe Democrats would be this foolish in an election year, but Pethokoukis forgets that this is the Age of Obama. The Audacity to Hope for Socialism Change has arrived:
I hate to use the “S” word, but the American government would never do something as, well, socialist as seize private pension funds, right? This is exactly what cash-strapped Argentina just did in the name of protecting workers’ retirement accounts (Efharisto, Fausta’s Blog). Now, even Uncle Sam isn’t that stupid, but some Democrats might try something almost as loopy: kill 401(k) plans.
House Democrats recently invited Teresa Ghilarducci, a professor at the New School of Social Research, to testify before a subcommittee on her idea to eliminate the preferential tax treatment of the popular retirement plans. In place of 401(k) plans, she would have workers transfer their dough into government-created “guaranteed retirement accounts” for every worker. The government would deposit $600 (inflation indexed) every year into the GRAs. Each worker would also have to save 5 percent of pay into the accounts, to which the government would pay a measly 3 percent return. Rep. Jim McDermott, a Democrat from Washington and chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee’s Subcommittee on Income Security and Family Support, said that since “the savings rate isn’t going up for the investment of $80 billion [in 401(k) tax breaks], we have to start to think about whether or not we want to continue to invest that $80 billion for a policy that’s not generating what we now say it should.”
Pethokoukis also asks a question that I neglected in my earlier post:
What effect would this plan have on an already battered stock market? Well, I would imagine it would send it even lower, sticking a shiv into the portfolios of everyone who didn’t jump aboard. But I am sure the Chinese would love to jump in and buy all our cheap stocks to fund the retirement of their citizens.
I’d suggest that Pethokoukis vastly underestimates the effect this change will have on the stock market. The advent of private tax-deferred retirement accounts created a huge investor class in the US. By some estimations, more than 70% of American adults have money in the stock market in long-term investments for their eventual retirement. That’s a revolutionary change in the relationship between labor and ownership, one that capitalism succeeded in creating where Marx and his followers only fantasized.
What happens when the tax deferral on this investment ends? Most people won’t want to take the risks of the market without it, certainly not on the scale they do today (about $5 trillion in capital) and likely not after the Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac collapse. They’ll start moving to savings accounts or gold and removing their money from the markets. The flight of capital will eliminate the necessary engine for recovery, but that’s a minor point. The price of stock will utterly collapse as everyone looks to liquidate their holdings, crashing Wall Street and throwing tens of millions out of work as publicly-held companies disintegrate.
Want to see the Dow at its status before tax-deferred private investment accounts got approved? We’ll look at 8500 with wistful nostalgia. Get ready for 1500.
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Why the RNC isn’t running ads on these 401k plans is stunning. Absolutely stunning.
Incompetence.
Where’s McCain?
lorien1973 on October 23, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Assuming 70% of Americans have money in the market, the clear signal of the market that they don’t want Barry means trouble for the Obama campaign.
Vashta.Nerada on October 23, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Commie = Democrat
Maxx on October 23, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Because this development just came out of the pipeline today – it takes time to make an advertisement and the GOP is actually pretty expedient compared to the average business. Give them some time.
Tacitus_SGL on October 23, 2008 at 2:56 PM
A capital idea, making people sell while their accounts have plunged to reap a sweet annualized 3% yield. Oy.
phronesis on October 23, 2008 at 2:56 PM
I want someone to challenge this nugget
The arrogance of this statement makes me white hot angry. The federal government is investing $80 billion? Again, they act as though our earnings beling to the Fed and they are merely letting us have a little of it off the top.
The greed of these communists is stunning. First they cripple the stock market with Fannie/Freddie and now want to sue that as an excuse to kill 401k’s? The government creates a problem and then proposes more government as the solution?
WTF!! There HAS to be a way to stop this insanity. We can’t allow ourselves to be slaves to our government.
DerKrieger on October 23, 2008 at 2:57 PM
3% is about the rate of inflation so your investment will have an ROI of zero.
DerKrieger on October 23, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Every GOP Congressman and Senator ought to be SCREAMING about this.
My God, the air is getting legitimately dangerous.
-T
The Therapist on October 23, 2008 at 2:59 PM
Reached for comment, Obama said, “I would bankrupt America…for purposes of fairness.” Joe Biden said, “Time to be patriotic.”
/sarc
CP on October 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM
Relax everyone. The Obamatrons can’t touch the 401(k) programs until they have passed gun control legislation.
shaken on October 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM
I posted on my blog about this last week. There was a post about it here last week. This is not “today” – it’s been known for a while now.
lorien1973 on October 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM
Socialism fosters oppression, socialism fosters servitude, socialism fosters cruelty; more abominable is the fact that socailism fosters idiocy.
Tav on October 23, 2008 at 3:00 PM
Folks, they WILL DO THIS.
marklmail on October 23, 2008 at 3:01 PM
This scares the hell out of me.
I got my Securities license 3 weeks ago. It wouldn’t bode well for anyone in that line of work.
And the thought of tens of millions out of work is just sickening.
dc84123 on October 23, 2008 at 3:03 PM
2nd Amendment – God bless the founders.
Onager on October 23, 2008 at 3:03 PM
LOL, reminds me of the old days, when Pat Buchanan was a conservative. On Crossfire, they were debating the Reagan tax cuts, and the liberal guest exclaimed to Pat that the cuts were ’stealing money from the Treasury’. Over twenty years, and looks like nothing has changed in the ivory towers around DC.
Vashta.Nerada on October 23, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Dude, that is even scarier. Time to head to the store for more ammo.
dc84123 on October 23, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Just another peg upon which the Democrats want to get you dependent upon government. One peg is going to be your health care, and now another one is going to be your entire retirement, not just Social Security. Os course socialists want you to be dependent upon them, just as slaves were dependent upon their masters.
McCain & Palin need to hit this hard and call it for what it is: socialism.
rbj on October 23, 2008 at 3:05 PM
When this gets out, the market might suffer.
marklmail on October 23, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Maxx on October 23, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Commie synonymous with Democrat
Brass Pair on October 23, 2008 at 3:06 PM
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.
- Groucho
MB4 on October 23, 2008 at 3:06 PM
The market is clearly moving inversely to Barry’s likelihood of victory.
Vashta.Nerada on October 23, 2008 at 3:07 PM
I agree that the Democrats are feeling cocky enough right now to legislate this drastic measure, but what would it do to 403b plans, the non-profit version of the 401k? Most people who participate in these plans, my wife included, are teachers and college professors, generally a demographic that votes for Democrats. They would be severely harming their own very large constituency. Are they stupid enough to make this move? I hope we don’t find out.
liberty on October 23, 2008 at 3:08 PM
Well it just developed into a big story today, anyway. We’ll see what the GOP does advertising-wise; it would be an epic mistake to neglect to mention this over the home stretch of the election.
Tacitus_SGL on October 23, 2008 at 3:08 PM
It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native criminal class except Congress.
- Mark Twain
MB4 on October 23, 2008 at 3:09 PM
The Republican party needs to be on this like flies on a dead chicken. This should be in ads every 15 minutes on every station for a week.
Given the fact that the Republicans generally make a box of rocks look like Stephen Hawking, I fully expect them to do nothing.
I have people who are already halting 401(k) contributions because of this, and because, just as Ed said, this will cause the market to find a new bottom–1,500 is not out of the question.
__________
RJGatorEsq. on October 23, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Teresa Ghilarducci
PhD 1984 University of California, Berkeley
How surprising!
Oxybeles on October 23, 2008 at 3:10 PM
Has anyone called Pethokoukis a racist yet?
HornetSting on October 23, 2008 at 3:10 PM
Are the dems campaigning for McCain/Palin
now? This is so completely stupid it’s
mind-boggling. Cindy McCain should start
taking measurements for the new drapes
in the White House.
Mulligan on October 23, 2008 at 3:10 PM
According to many surveys, over 60% of the American population has investments in the stock market.
McCain and the GOP have to jump on this BIG TIME! Shout from the rooftops about how much money comes into the stock market from IRA’s and 401K’s, which would cause a stock-market collapse worse than 1929 if it were pulled out all at once. Lots of Joe the Plumbers and poorer have 401K’s!!!
New McCain ad: For all the tens of millions of working people who have tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars each in your 401K plans, Democrats in Congress want to confiscate that for Social Security and give you a measly $600. If I am elected president, I promise to veto this bill and protect your hard-earned retirement funds.
Then, watch the votes roll in!
Steve Z on October 23, 2008 at 3:11 PM
As a typical liberal professor Teresa Ghilarducci is woefully ignorant or deliberately misleading when she alleges that there is some sort of ‘preferential tax treatment’ of 401k accounts.While the contributions are tax free when they are made all withdrawels are taxed at the personal income rate. That means that dividends and profits on investments on the 401K receive no special tax treatment.This is a Marxist socialistic redistribution of wealth effort to steal from those who work and save to give to those who don’t.
Patrick49 on October 23, 2008 at 3:11 PM
My 401K didn`t even make it 5 years before it`s put in jeopardy.
Dark times ahead, dark times.
ThePrez on October 23, 2008 at 3:11 PM
I thought this was a new proposal. Today is the first time I’d heard about it…you apparently heard about this before?
capitalist piglet on October 23, 2008 at 3:13 PM
New School of Social Research
Economics Department
Oxybeles on October 23, 2008 at 3:13 PM
This country has come to feel the same when Congress is in session as when the baby gets hold of a hammer.
- Will Rogers
MB4 on October 23, 2008 at 3:14 PM
The RNC has GOT to make a campaign ad on this topic, PRONTO. And run it freakin’ EVERYWHERE!
thirteen28 on October 23, 2008 at 3:14 PM
As with gold, other good investment metals at this time are lead and brass…preferably in the form of high velocity ammunition.
Wyznowski on October 23, 2008 at 3:15 PM
It shouldn’t come as a surprise. Obama was part of The New Party after all.
Brass Pair on October 23, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Lorien is right – this happened back on October 7th:
http://www.investmentnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081007/REG/810079894
Why am I just hearing about this now, and same with the financial guys at work? We actively look for this kind of thing.
Tacitus_SGL on October 23, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of congress. But I repeat myself.
- Mark Twain
MB4 on October 23, 2008 at 3:16 PM
I like the picture Ed. Looks like Barry, Reid and Pelosi are praying over the coffin of honest government.
Vashta.Nerada on October 23, 2008 at 3:17 PM
At some point this becomes a mortal danger. I can’t say when but it must be close.
ronsfi on October 23, 2008 at 3:17 PM
You know what is sad, is that this will be pushed by Obama and championed by our media as a necessary revamping of social security and retirement planning. If we as Americans buy Obama we will buy his programs too.
zn
Angry Dumbo on October 23, 2008 at 3:19 PM
I never thought I would be calling someone a Commie. It’s like calling someone a Hun, or a Blue Belly.
Talk about change, not.
Hening on October 23, 2008 at 3:19 PM
I love the way that every time there is a bear market our liberals declare that capitalism is a failure and that investing in stocks is a loosing proposition. Totally ignoring the huge amounts of money made by millions between bear markets.
Even counting bear markets, the stock market is the best place to invest.
What the Democrats want to do is stop the trend of individuals recognizing that they to are members of the investment class, which makes them less tempted by the class warfare rhetoric that liberals specialize in.
This does that.
MarkTheGreat on October 23, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Great way to instigate a revolt in this country.
And these same people constantly fearmonger about the GOP wanting to go after Medicare and Social Security.
JammieWearingFool on October 23, 2008 at 3:20 PM
And you don’t want to play your hold cards too soon and give Team Obama time to get in front of it like he did by adding the ‘work requirement’ to this tax plan.
Texas Gal on October 23, 2008 at 3:20 PM
We cannot let the democrats stay in office they are destroying our country.
patriot2001 on October 23, 2008 at 3:21 PM
Wait until the Democrats decide to monetize Obama’s new deficit spending. We will consider 3% inflation to be the good old days.
MarkTheGreat on October 23, 2008 at 3:21 PM
You know what is sad, is that this will be pushed by Obama and championed by our media as a necessary revamping of social security and retirement planning. If we as Americans buy Obama we will buy his programs too.
No time to go wobbly. Send the link to everyone you know who is retirement age or approaching it. Heck send it to everyone. The word needs to get out, we have to do the MSMs job, get going.
Angry Dumbo on October 23, 2008 at 3:21 PM
Inflation broke 12% under Carter. As has been noted before, Obama is running to be Carter II.
MarkTheGreat on October 23, 2008 at 3:22 PM
I sure am glad that I very recently rotated out the old stuff and stocked up on a new large supply of MRE’s, along with the supply of long-term-storage water, guns, ammo, medicines, and other necessities and sundry items. My family can live on what we have for 6 weeks solid. 3 months if we have to diligently ration. After that… I guess it will be a matter of survival of the
fittestbest prepared.It’s a good thing we’re a family of hard working, educated, street-wise, prepared, bitter religious gun clingers or my family might not make it very far when this country finally collapses. Hopefully, it won’t come to that, and my local homeless shelter will get another large donation of MRE’s and other supply’s in about 5 years.
FlatFoot on October 23, 2008 at 3:26 PM
No problem. The Elm street to Oak Blvd crowd has been selected to provide extra benefits to the 1st to 3rd Ave demographic.
Limerick on October 23, 2008 at 3:26 PM
Another reason to defeat that One!
mindhacker on October 23, 2008 at 3:30 PM
Just the same way they demonized speculators when oil was over $140/bbl but are now silent when it’s around $70/bbl.
These people are Marxists and they must be fought.
I’ve been trying to find out what some of our Red state legislatures and governors intend to do under an overwhelming Dem majority. Oklahoma is already starting to reassert its 10th Amendment sovereign rights. We need to work hard to make Red state governments even more Red. I can see this becoming a trend, quickly.
DerKrieger on October 23, 2008 at 3:30 PM
God Almighty, what the hell is going on with these people?
Bishop on October 23, 2008 at 3:32 PM
They have Darwin on their side.
Limerick on October 23, 2008 at 3:32 PM
God has nothing to do with these people good sir.
Much as it is likely part of the problem.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 23, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Will Obama, Pelosi, and Reid STEALING everyone’s money finally wake people up?
marklmail on October 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM
O/T but I called Rep. Waxman’s office and laid into his staffer even calling Waxman an idiot and her a fool for working for him. Waxman is holding hearings trying to blame the credit crisis on SEC chairman Scott and Alan Greenspan. I asked his staffer when Waxman would be calling on Frank, Dodd, Raines, and Waters.
DerKrieger on October 23, 2008 at 3:38 PM
It is an interesting concept. In fact, when the Republicans brought this up as partial privatization of Social Security a while a back the Democrats howled that Bush wanted to destroy people’s retirement system. It looks like the Democrats accept partial privatization, but they just want to use your money to do it.
jerryofva on October 23, 2008 at 3:39 PM
Onward, Darwin soldiers, skipping off to war.
With the Ankh of Dawin going on before
Barry, the elistist Master, heads against the foe
Backwards into battle, see his banner glow!
Limerick on October 23, 2008 at 3:40 PM
They’ll come knocking on your door to get your money. Clean your guns folks.
marklmail on October 23, 2008 at 3:40 PM
that’s funny because I have been calling for Dow 1500 by 2012 if Obama is elected. People laughed at me. Now they are starting to see. Most still don’t believe it. but one of the things the dems hated about Reagan is the amount of wealthy people He made. the Dems from 1930-1980 loved the fact that there were many poor people. they could placate them with things like the New Deal, the Great Society etc. Once the majority of people in the US become wealthy enough to live without gov their poll numbers dropped. They want to turn the clock back. When Reagan came to Power the Dow was around 1500. they want that time to come again. No two cars in a garage, no subrurbs, no malls, so strip malls, no consumer spending. they want to get ride of growth, no new technology. No inernet, no talk radio. they want to destroy freedom every place they find it. It will mean war I think.
unseen on October 23, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Why is it that the government’s solution to every problem is more government? I think the Dems’ ideal America is similar to that of the old Apple commercials where they pick on IBM. American citizens are nothing but mindless drones that need the government to make their morning coffee and tie their shoes for them. I for one am sick of it….. and a 3% return is BS!!! I’ll invest in foreign securities before I contribute to a system like this.
Whatever happened to the government that governs best governs least?
niuhuskie2009 on October 23, 2008 at 3:53 PM
What a great idea! Allow those that bankrupt Social Security to now get their hands on my back up plan – my 401k!
Dream on Democrats. I’ll be in another country before you get your hands on my hard earned money.
katablog.com on October 23, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Indeed. If they were smarter, they’d be gainfully employed, creating, not destroying things.
Entelechy on October 23, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Gun control means never having to say “I missed.”
Move along, this is not the revolution that ACORN is looking for…
Right_of_Attila on October 23, 2008 at 3:57 PM
when this happens, Obama will be there to SAVE US ALL!!! Hallelujah!! all you need is this little mark on your hand or forehead…
right4life on October 23, 2008 at 4:03 PM
Darwin on their side, huh? It might be time to make sure Colt, Smith & Wesson, Glock, Winchester, etc. are on our side.
This is getting out of hand, and there hasn’t even been an election yet.
Bishop on October 23, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Socialism is the first step: nationalize banking/lending industry, oil, medical care, and 401k/retirment acounts (big piece of the stock market). Did I miss anything? Once consolidated and political power firmly in grasp (executive, legislative, judicial) Then the next move is to communism where political, military, police, and security falls firmly into hands of small group of Washington leadership. Socialisms consolidates the economic system under the government; communism consolidates the social, political, and moral systems into a centrally controlled government. Our Founding Fathers were brilliant in protecting the US from an overly strong government through checks and balances and balancing of power in the constitution, as well as the Bill of Rights (freedom of speech, religion, private property, gun ownership etc.). Finally, as a Republic where police, education, and politics were de-centralized at the local county and township levels, coordinating a national takeover would be very difficult. Unfortunately, the dismantling and consolidation is making it a possibility and not too far off in reality.
jerseyman on October 23, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Let me tell you something. No sane person who’s trying to win an election, would float this. This news was meant to further depress the market.
marklmail on October 23, 2008 at 4:13 PM
Predictably the Democrat ponzi scheme Social Security has nearly gone belly up, so now the Democrats are going to create the very same program under a different name to save Social Security.
Unbelievable!
RJL on October 23, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Crashing the markets (Fannie/Freddie) and subsequent market confidence combined with Obama’s policies and apparent presidency, has depressed the market with the HOPE that voters will run to the Democrats for CHANGE and an expansion of socialism to bail them out.
jerseyman on October 23, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Bingo.
And it will be blamed on George Bush.
Buy Danish on October 23, 2008 at 4:35 PM
If you’re going to spead the wealth around, as BarryO has promised to do, why stop with income? This is not a stretch to think that The One would sieze and freeze pension assets or any other assets that he thought his flock would support.
EconomicNeocon on October 23, 2008 at 4:56 PM
This is insanity. I’m about ready to implode- where is McCain on this? It was brought up a few days ago and nothing! I appreciate that he’s out there doing 6 stops in 12 hours, but WTF? Where ARE the ads? “Joe average” doesn’t read Hot Air everyday- Every business owner, every boss, every CEO, banker, investment broker, ET AL, needs to get this information out to their employees immediately! This sucks and I have no doubt it’s only the beginning. Why isn’t BUSINESS beating the crap out of Obama?!
Hello Neil Cavuto? Donald Trump? Michael Bloomberg?
anniekc on October 23, 2008 at 5:05 PM
No way. I think this woman is the same flaming liberal former Notre Dame professor who was often quoted by our local newspaper on economic matters. She’s a nut.
sheesh on October 23, 2008 at 5:58 PM
This has been brought up by several democratic idiots in the last few weeks.
anniekc on October 23, 2008 at 6:00 PM
this is srtraight out of Argentina…or is their idea from here? Bad ideas travel fast amoung the political class when there is money on the table they can divert to their uses!
Reading the words of this “professor” she keeps using the “I” owrd about why this plan is good…”I want to stop subsidizing…”, “I believe this is…”,…guess what lady-it ain’t YOUR MONEY, and why should YOU decide for me and millions of other Americans what to do with it, how best to invest it?
You think I want my money in the same hands that have brought us to a financial brink?
What indeed do these people use for brains?
I am not sure whether to sh** or go blind.
Buy ammo.
Harry Schell on October 23, 2008 at 6:06 PM
No wonder at all Bama wants a separate armed force reporting to him alone, a new people’s army to keep naysayers like us in line.
This answer to maiden’s prayer, lousy idea, has to be strangled in its crib fast.
Maxie Waters is going to run oil companies, banks are being nationalized, now this…
It is going to be some kind of ride, kids, definitely an E-ticket.
Harry Schell on October 23, 2008 at 6:11 PM
Of course Dems want a bigger SS piggy bank its just more for them to spend.
http://stoptheraid08.com/about.php
http://republicanleader.house.gov/brokenpromises/p_families.html
Lying liars, lying profusely.
Speakup on October 23, 2008 at 7:04 PM
Currently, about $4.7 trillion of our national debt is composed of unfunded trust funds, such as the Social Security and gasoline trust. These funds hold special government bonds which will have to be redeemed with future revenues.
This new scam would entail another unfunded trust fund. The government will divert 5% of payroll from possible investment in the stock and bond markets, spend it on current projects and put a bunch of IOUs in its place.
The economy will suffer because these funds will not be available for investment. Our children will suffer because these trust will greatly expand the national debt.
Laurence on October 23, 2008 at 8:11 PM
Beginning to look like a revolution
Rod on October 23, 2008 at 8:56 PM
Yeah… let’s continue to run up huge debts that are serviced by communist China. This is not Obama’s fault. He has little to do with the crisis which causes us to go cap in hand to communist economic superpowers like China for loans but thank God some economies are successful enough to bail us out… they are all socialist economies. Shame on you for thinking that suggesting that anyone other than Bush and conservative Republicans are to blame.
lexhamfox on October 24, 2008 at 1:49 AM
Ok Ed, wasn’t it about a month ago when you where arguing that the economy was’t that bad? GDP was up and unemployment was about 6 %. And now you are the ultimate bear. 1500? I think we are due for another depression but even I am not that bearish.
Bill C on October 24, 2008 at 2:29 AM
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