Video: McCain supporters confront guy linking Obama to Islam
posted at 3:15 pm on October 20, 2008 by Allahpundit
Share on Facebook | regular view
Via Ben Smith, momentarily veering away from the media’s “Family Guy” narrative, the American News Project captures a vignette from the pogrom that wasn’t.
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: « Previous 1 ... 3 4 5 6 Next »
Trouble is…they say it while cowering in hiding, lest their more devout brethren saw off ther heads.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 9:53 PM
…and that’s what nearly every halfway intelligent person of faith that I know thinks. We’re free-willed human beings, and books are merely guides. If someone takes the book to justify any crime, it doesn’t excuse them any more than the White Album excused Manson.
MadisonConservative on October 20, 2008 at 10:04 PM
Madison,
YOU”RE A SHAMELESS LIAR!!
I never said homosexuals would send all straight people to death camps!!
What I said was:
SaintOlaf on October 20, 2008 at 10:11 PM
I noticed when I took the harder undergrad math classes that “obvious” is indeed a relative word. I remember looking at obvious steps in proofs for over two hours.
thuja on October 20, 2008 at 10:12 PM
I’ve noticed that MadisonConservative and other people have responded a person who is obviously unhinged. It does nothing to improve the quality of our dialogue to respond to the insane. In fact, I urge everyone to never even invoke the name of the mentally ill among us.
thuja on October 20, 2008 at 10:16 PM
So many things you say are complete nonsense, especially when it comes to the Christian faith. I’m actually wondering if you aren’t a reprobate? See Titus 1:16. I really hope not. You said, “The New Testament was decided on by a bunch of men. They created new scripture”. Which is what you just said. Really, the arrogance of that is just incredible and totally unacceptable! To state that man created Scripture is ludicrous. The Bible was written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. 2 Timothy 3:16 states, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God”. Here the Bible claims to be inspired. Well, if a Book makes a claim like that you know two things: Either it is, or it isn’t. I don’t know of any other options, okay. The word inspire means to ‘breath in’. We expire when a person ‘breathes out’ (the exhale). There’s perspire too, but inspire means to ‘breath in’. There are many other verses that deal with this, but the Bible claims to be God-breathed. It’s actually His Words breathed through somebody. Y’know, writing the pen flawlesly inspired. So I believe that is true. You have shepherds, farmers, fishermen, physicians, priests, philosophers and kings — over 40 different authors from all walks of life writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. And here good ol’ Esthier gets up before GOD and everbody and claims, “The New Testament was decided on by a bunch of men. They created new scripture.” Wow! That really is a heresy. Remember, the Bible says, “For the prophecy came NOT IN OLD TIME BY THE WILL OF MAN: but holy men of God spake as they were MOVED BY THE HOLY GHOST” (2 Peter 1:20-21). God decided which Books made the Holy Bible, not man. God preserved His Word through the generations, not man. Psalm 12:6-7 says, “The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt KEEP them, O LORD, thou shalt PRESERVE from this generation for ever.” So Esthier contradicts Scripture with her wild statements. If there is a God (I believe there is) and there is a Devil, it would be smart for the Devil to do this very thing, to corrupt God’s Word. To confuse humanity, to start 50,000 religions and get people confused and distracted, and Esthier that. Confuses people to keep them away from the truth. The Bible in case you don’t know is the (B)asic (I)nstructions (B)efore (L)eaving (E)arth. You really ought to read the Book because you’re going to be gone for a very long time when you leave this planet, okay. Be sure you’re goin’ to the right spot.
apacalyps on October 20, 2008 at 10:17 PM
The Bible doesn’t tell Christians to “kill non believers” Madison!
Show me where the Bible tells Christians to “kill non believers” Madison.
You shameless liar and snake!!
I just proved you’re a liar a minute ago also!
Give it up man!
SaintOlaf on October 20, 2008 at 10:18 PM
I suppose all holy books can reinterpreted in a sane way over time. The question is how long before rational interpretations dominate. Will Islam become sane before the muslims nuke several cities? I have my doubts.
thuja on October 20, 2008 at 10:19 PM
True…but the White Album was intense. I still enjoy it.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Typo. This should read, “and Esthier does that. Confuses people to keep them away from the truth.”
apacalyps on October 20, 2008 at 10:22 PM
The Old Testament directs the Jews of old, Madison. Christians are directed by the New Testament – specifically, by Jesus Christ. I don’t recall that he ever told them to raise the sword to spread his gospel. If you can find such an instance I’ll be happy to discuss it.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 10:26 PM
You are insane. Please go back to the rubber room.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 10:27 PM
Funny guy.
I was referring to the militant homosexuals being useful to obama in the sense that they will pass Hate Crime legislation and eventually outlaw Christianity entirely..
SaintOlaf on October 20, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Well, if anyone needed any proof that there are enough people willing to believe that a book is absolutely, literally true, (because the book itself says that it is absolutely, literally true), to make this a very dangerous world; to condemn anyone to hell or to death for straying from the path laid out by that book, you have it now.
LegendHasIt on October 20, 2008 at 10:31 PM
No, I’m not talking about 0laf in that last post.
LegendHasIt on October 20, 2008 at 10:32 PM
I’m insane?
I’m not the guy who named himself after a sexually transmitted disease man!
Leave me alone man.
You’re obsessed with me.
SaintOlaf on October 20, 2008 at 10:33 PM
You poor thing.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 10:36 PM
No mention of this in the MSM. Not even Fox. So the “racist white Republican” meme still stands despite the efforts of these good folks.
Dear God, I have a case of Allahpecia…
mram on October 20, 2008 at 10:37 PM
Get a hold of yourself. McCain is going to win, whether you like it or not. That’s not opinion…it’s a fact.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 10:38 PM
Violating my own ideas, I will respond to this. As a gay Jew, I’m stridently opposed to hate crime legislation and I do speak out strongly against the ideas of victimhood implicit in hate crime legislation.
I also agree with SaintOlaf that laws that forbid people to express religious hatred against gay people fundamentally undermine the spirit behind the First Amendment. Perhaps because I’m so confident in the ultimate victory of gay people in their legitimate struggles, I strongly oppose unfair attacks or outright repression of people who had the views about gay people common up to the sixties. I’m even supportive of the rights of Westboro Baptist Church to express their opinions at military funerals.
thuja on October 20, 2008 at 10:43 PM
Funny how you call me a snake and therefore equate me with the serpent.
Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name.
However, your wish is my command:
Next.
MadisonConservative on October 20, 2008 at 10:55 PM
Oh. Thanks for clearing that up. By the way, when are you going to redesign infowars.com? Too many ads on there.
MadisonConservative on October 20, 2008 at 10:56 PM
I don’t dispute that. However, if that is the case, why is the Old Testament included in most Bibles? I’ve seen copies of just the New Testament, but they’re the exception rather than the standard.
Honestly, knocking off the Old Testament would lay waste to a lot of atheistic and radical Islamic arguments.
MadisonConservative on October 20, 2008 at 10:58 PM
But Madison, does this tell Christians to kill non-believers or does it tell Jews to kill non-believers?
It looks to me to be a passage more relevant to Judaism.
I will tell you that only a very small number of Jews would be willing to kill based on this chapter. Such an interpretation would go against the Talmud which is the oral Torah–according to almost all Jews.
thuja on October 20, 2008 at 11:00 PM
Aw, are some HotAir-ers here trying to equivocate Islam with Christianity?
Don’t we know better?
blatantblue on October 20, 2008 at 11:02 PM
And I also believe that only a very small number of Christians would be willing to kill based on this chapter, because it’s just a book. The Koran is also just a book, and I believe that only a small percent of Muslims would be willing to kill based on their book.
Now, I grant you that there is a greater percent of Muslims that would kill than there are Christians, but my point is that the vast majority of both are not interested in killing non-believers, and to assert that either is not a true believer based on their unwillingness to create a bloodbath is disgusting.
MadisonConservative on October 20, 2008 at 11:11 PM
You guys all miss out on the fundamental difference
The Bible has been subject to man’s interpretation for thousands of years.
The Qur’an is the DI-RECT word of Allah
blatantblue on October 20, 2008 at 11:14 PM
I can’t leave you kids alone for a minute.
Seriously, what the hell happened to this thread?
TexasDan on October 20, 2008 at 11:16 PM
blatantblue
Some one threw the Islam teacher under the bus.
BL@KBIRD on October 20, 2008 at 11:17 PM
You people quote bible verses is if they actually prove something.
Xolom on October 20, 2008 at 11:17 PM
i am confused blackbird
blatantblue on October 20, 2008 at 11:18 PM
But there is one huge difference. Christianity and Judaism have created large traditions that deny that their holy books promote killing non-believers. On the other hand, Islam has a large tradition that promotes killing non-believers. We cannot escape centuries of tradition. Islam is not going become sane or reasonable because of the pious wishes of non-muslims.
thuja on October 20, 2008 at 11:18 PM
It is not a prescriptive command, prescribing violence against nonbelievers. It was a command given to the Jews thousands of years ago in a particular context.
It would be like picking up a book about the War of Independence, reading a warlike call to arms made by George Washington and deciding it was your duty as an American to go out and kill any British person you could find.
aengus on October 20, 2008 at 11:22 PM
Well, Bible verses do give some indication about the beliefs of Jews and Christians. Of course, there are other sources of those beliefs, but the Judaism and Christianity game is usually played by appeal to Bible verses and the addition of the Talmud for Judaism.
thuja on October 20, 2008 at 11:22 PM
Because in the Old Testament runs the thread of Messianic prophecy – beginning with Genesis.
Indeed it would. But then, it would deprive the New Testament of its foundation. And a house without a foundation cannot stand for long.
This is what I know: Christ told us to love one another. Do good. Avoid evil. Seek ye the kingdom of God.
I must admit that I do a piss poor job of following those commandments. But they are good commandments, and my failure to adhere to them should not be perceived as a diminishment of their veracity or value.
Can’t say anything more beyond that, my friend. Sorry.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 11:23 PM
i know that there are such “conservatives” out there – bircher types – but ten’ll get ya twenty that this fool is a dirty lefty agent provacateur.
eh on October 20, 2008 at 11:25 PM
Compare the following
Jesus (the basis of Christianity) taught followers to turn the other cheek.
Muhammad was first told by Allah to fight in defense of Muslims…
Then he was told to fight in defense of Muslims until Allahs religion prevailed over the enemy…
Then he was told to engage in open-ended warfare against non-Muslims
blatantblue on October 20, 2008 at 11:25 PM
That was an embarrassing display by the McCain supporter. That sort of ignorant exhibition pushes voters to Obama and not only that, he’s wrong. Obama isn’t a Muslim. I don’t believe he’s really a Christian, either, although a nominal one maybe, becuase his positions are at odds with Christian tenants, principles and morals. But let’s not demonize Muslims by making Obama one of them!
Food for thought: we wouldn’t be winning the war in Iraq without the help of good Muslims. They have thrown themselves on suicide bombers to save our soldiers. There is no way we would be successful without them. There is a difference between good Muslims and apostates like Osama bin Laden.
Amy Proctor on October 20, 2008 at 11:26 PM
It is not a question of tradition but merely recognising the difference between descriptive and prescriptive violence. While parts of the Bible describe commands of violence given in Jewish war against pagan nations, the Koran prescribes the command for Muslims to slay the unbelievers wherever they are found until the whole world is subject to Allah’s will.
aengus on October 20, 2008 at 11:27 PM
But aengus, not all Jews would agree with you. I talked to a Hasadic Jew at a Lubavitch synagogue three weeks ago that actually does believe that these verses are relevant today. I hope most of the Hasadim would consider him insane, but who knows what the future will bring?
thuja on October 20, 2008 at 11:27 PM
It’s funny, the defenders of Islam argue like this:
1) NO. NO. Stop attacking Islam.
then they move on to argument number two which goes like this
2) So what? Christianity teaches bad things too.
So in the end, they concede the fact Islam is violent. Funny how that always works
blatantblue on October 20, 2008 at 11:29 PM
Yes they will. But the difference is in content. The Koran says to slaughter infidels where you find them the Bible teaches to love our enemies and pray for them. That’s quite a difference.
Mojave Mark on October 20, 2008 at 11:32 PM
There is a difference. That difference is that the Qur’an is the direct word of Allah. Interpretation need not apply
blatantblue on October 20, 2008 at 11:33 PM
And it is this which makes me admire the Christian faith.
A question, though, and I warn you this question has pissed off many a faithful I’ve asked it of.
Doesn’t Jesus’ presence and message basically contradict not only the messages that prophets in the Old Testament claimed they received from god, but does his being sent not also prove the fallibility of god? If he created the Earth, and saw it was good, how could it descend to the point of needing to be saved? Isn’t he responsible for atrocities such as Sodom and Gomorrah?
Aside: and this time, to anyone who is going to pitch a fit of offensensitivity over my question, just don’t respond. If you can’t take serious questions about your faith, then you are not truly faithful. Either you want to help others understand and see their way to your side, or you don’t.
MadisonConservative on October 20, 2008 at 11:34 PM
The single most profound difference between the Old Testament and the Koran is that the violence in the Old Testament tends to be descriptive whereas the violence in the Koran more than tends to the prescriptive.
MB4 on October 20, 2008 at 11:34 PM
Christianity escaped centuries of violence through events such as the Reformation. I would hardly put such a thing past Muslims.
MadisonConservative on October 20, 2008 at 11:35 PM
Preachin’ to tha’ choir ;-)
blatantblue on October 20, 2008 at 11:36 PM
When there are words, it’s always a matter of interpretation.
thuja on October 20, 2008 at 11:37 PM
Well I’ve heard of Hasadic Jews who come up with personal interpretations but its usually ludicrous stuff that wouldn’t fool a five year old – like pretending the Palestinians are actually descended from the Caananites (with zero proof) so its okay to kill them en masse.
aengus on October 20, 2008 at 11:38 PM
The same thing that always happens to any thread dealing with religion, homosexuality or abortion. If you care or have an opinion you’re a bible thumper, disgusting atheist, homophobic sodomite, liberal jackass, conservative bigot or a murdering thug. If you don’t care and don’t have a strong opinion either way you’re a liberal jackass, conservative bigot, homophobic sodomite, bible thumping disgusting atheist, murdering thug. Oh and if apocalyps joins in either way you’ll be a liar too.
Oldnuke on October 20, 2008 at 11:39 PM
Drat. You beat me to it.
MB4 on October 20, 2008 at 11:39 PM
I apologize for the crudeness of my descriptions, but as things appear to me:
Judaism concerns itself with the rules and morality necessary for organizing a healthy, growing society.
Christianity, already given a healthy society, concerns itself with the rules and morality necessary for organizing a spiritually healthy afterlife.
Islam concerns itself with forcing submission from its adherents so that they will carry out the violent, if necessary, expansion of an established land empire.
That’s kind of how I see it.
progressoverpeace on October 20, 2008 at 11:42 PM
Mosques are plenty, graveyards are plenty, but morals and whiskey are scarce. The Koran does not permit Mohammedans to drink. Their natural instincts do not permit them to be moral.
- Mark Twain
When I, a thoughtful and unblessed Presbyterian, examine the Koran, I know that beyond any question every Mohammedan is insane, not in all things, but in religious matters. I cannot prove to him that he is insane, because you never can prove anything to a lunatic — for that is a part of his insanity and the evidence of it.
- Mark Twain
MB4 on October 20, 2008 at 11:43 PM
Perhaps us Jews need to change that point of view. If the Palestinians continue to act as complete a**holes, maybe the approach of David was the right approach to Palestinians. Now, I’m a progressive Jew. I’m not sure that my Orthodox brothers wish to be more tolerant than I am.
thuja on October 20, 2008 at 11:43 PM
Uh, no. Muslims believe it is the direct word of Allah, unlike Christians who believe the writing of the Bible was through Divine Inspiration, a much more indirect path.
blatantblue on October 20, 2008 at 11:44 PM
LOL. Good questions. And the subjects of rich discussion over a shared brandy – elsewhere and later on. Dang, how I wish you lived in NJ, because we would have endless and wonderful discussions.
I know this much, my friend. I love this man Jesus. I will try to live as he asked me to because I believe he is God incarnate. And I will die for the sake of his name, if need be. It’s what I believe, however silly it may seem to others.
But then, I alone will answer for that belief – whether to God or to oblivion.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 11:45 PM
I’d like to answer this question but I don’t know enough yet. The last time I tried to answer something similar another poster thought one of my points contradicted Augustine. I will study more theology and get back to you at some later point though.
aengus on October 20, 2008 at 11:45 PM
Lol!
aengus on October 20, 2008 at 11:47 PM
HUH??
Madison I see what your biggest problem is and the reason why you have a skewed vision of Christianity..
This right here:
The reason why you have such a horrible and skewed vision of what Christianity is…is because you believe that Scripture is open to private interpretation..AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT CHRISTIANITY IS.
You see, the Orthodox church wrote the Bible.
The Early Church Fathers and Saints, wrote commentaries on each book and taught the correct interpretations.
With the combined weight of all of these correct interpretations, you will see what the actual Christian Theology is..
It is practically a totally different theology…more mystical and less legalistic, with a God who is more Loving and NOT CRUEL.
I wish you would stop promoting your own deliberately deceitful misconceptions about Christianity and presenting them as if that is what Christians believe Madison.
The Scripture is not open for private interpretations and THERE IS correct interpretations.
I would advise you to go visit an Orthodox Church, see the Divine Liturgy and talk to a priest and see for your self.
SaintOlaf on October 20, 2008 at 11:50 PM
That reminds me of a neat bumber sticker that I saw today.
It is God’s job to judge Osama bin Laden
It is or job to arrange the meeting
MB4 on October 20, 2008 at 11:54 PM
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. (1 Cor 13:1)
Greetings, Dr. Loveless.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 11:57 PM
Lock and load!
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 11:58 PM
As soon as the “Fairness Doctrine” is reinstated, this is the nutjob all the MSM stations will trot out as their counterpoint.
Laura in Maryland on October 20, 2008 at 11:58 PM
Which nutjob? There are so many to choose from.
ManlyRash on October 21, 2008 at 12:00 AM
And another one gets it backwards.
I don’t deny for a moment that there are many good people who consider themselves Muslims, but THEY are the ones who do NOT follow the Qu’ran literally and absolutely…. THEY are the ones who are apostates. (and thank God {the real God} for them).
Bin Laden is the one that practiced the fundamentals.
LegendHasIt on October 21, 2008 at 12:00 AM
They seek him here, they seek him there
Those Special Ops seek him everywhere
If you should see him, please do give a yell!
That demmed elusive OBL
They seek him here, they seek him there
The Special Ops seek him everywhere
Oh, Binny, how the Special Ops do implore you
Simply to come out from your cave or from under your bed
With all your hiding
It’s a chore to smash your head!
They seek him here, they seek him there
The Special Ops seek him everywhere!
He gives the Special Ops nothing but frustration
Sink me! He’s a spoilsport
Each and every demmed capture
He cuts short
They seek him here, they seek him there
Those Special Ops seek him everywhere
Is he in Pakistani or even in Dearbornstani?
One thing we know for sure
Hes going to be very hot in Hell!
Tav on October 21, 2008 at 12:02 AM
Also:
There is one religious belief that is right, and I hold it.
And god tells me whether or not I should kill non-believers.
And I know the future, but I can’t tell you. god won’t let me.
And I am Jesus reborn.
Bow, mortals. Fear the pink helicopters.
MadisonConservative on October 21, 2008 at 12:09 AM
Lemme fix that last line for ya:
He
s going to beIS very hot in Hell!LegendHasIt on October 21, 2008 at 12:09 AM
Oh noes! The Lord said to beware the pink helicopters. It’s right there in St. Paul’s Epistle to the Aviationists.
ManlyRash on October 21, 2008 at 12:11 AM
I would love someone to directly discuss such things with. However, my closest ones that I would discuss such things with aren’t really worth it. My fiancee is an atheist-leaning agnostic, and I’ve spent a few years trying to get her to stop making the popular anti-Christian jokes that are that of the Daily Show ilk of our generation. My best friend is a Wiccan who derides Christianity based on the presumption that they oppress his religion, yet he has been unable to provide any experience with said discrimination.
And I do live in Madison. Nuff said.
Personally, I lean Jedi. Feel the Force.
MadisonConservative on October 21, 2008 at 12:12 AM
You would be surprised. Every now and then you will find a diamond in a coal mine.
Depends on how good the jokes are. Most of them are uninspired and sophomoric at best, unfortunatley. Fiancee, huh? Be careful…with regard to marriage, a Byzantine Catholic priest I once knew said: the fucking you are going to get isn’t worth the fucking you are going to get. FWIW.
Wiccans are fun…especially when they are drunk.
May the Force be with you, my friend. Always.
ManlyRash on October 21, 2008 at 12:20 AM
It doesn’t really bother me. I listed one of the few flaws of hers. It’s more just leftovers from rather anti-religious parents. Instead of going to church on Sunday, they went bowling. Her mother referred to it as the “Church of the Ten Pins”.
Especially since he channels Gothic warriors after a third of Rumple Minze. And fights like one. All I can say is thank god for sofa cushions.
And may Jesus always guide you. I have a feeling we’re following the same thing anyway. You know Satan is the true Sith Lord.
MadisonConservative on October 21, 2008 at 12:30 AM
An Obama loss will be mankind’s greatest lesson on humility.
Birdseye on October 21, 2008 at 12:31 AM
I was at McCain’s rally in Belton MO today, and I didn’t see anyone like that around. I did see those nutballs from Our Lady of the Military Funeral Protest (or whatever they’re called). Apparently God hates Palin and loves dead soldiers. Anyway …
Something kind of funny/interesting happened when McCain got to the part of his speech where he says, “If I am elected president …” a few times, and finally someone shouted “When!” So he said, “When I am elected president ..” and got the loudest cheer of the rally. I guess a little confidence doesn’t hurt. Hard to say if he rallied us or we rallied him.
You can see it at kctv5.com. Speech video part 2. Around the 8:20 mark.
Ronnie on October 21, 2008 at 12:42 AM
Ronnie on October 21, 2008 at 12:42 AM
I half expected that to make a headline somewhere, and it may yet, but it’s what people were talking about there.
Ronnie on October 21, 2008 at 12:43 AM
LOL….Oh yes.
ManlyRash on October 21, 2008 at 1:00 AM
Whoa…. is this the Westboro Baptist Church version of the McCain campaign?
If so… why?
Kini on October 21, 2008 at 1:16 AM
That’s right. Some guy selling bumper stickers is just like an entire church full of psychos who think dead soldiers make God happy because He hates gay people. />
Ronnie on October 21, 2008 at 1:25 AM
Ooooh, good question. (*looks for ColtsFan*) I wish I could save this thread. It’s late at night but I’d like to come back to this – terribly interesting stuff.
TheUnrepentantGeek on October 21, 2008 at 1:54 AM
Do your homework America.
1)Frank Marshall Davis = The Communist Connection
2)Dr. Khalid Al-Mansour = The Black Panther Connection
3)Raila Odinga = The Kenya Connection
4)Reverend Wright & His Mentor James Cone = The Racist Connection
5)Bernadine Dohrn & William Ayers = The Radical Education Connection
6)Louis Farrakhan = The Nation of Islam Connection
7)Tony Rezko = The Syrian Connection
8)Percy Sutton = The Harvard Connection
9)Prince Al-Waleed Bib Talal = The Saudi Arabia Connection
to name a few…
Kevin in Washington State on October 21, 2008 at 2:34 AM
I think you kind of answered your own question. God is indeed infallible, but man is not and He knew that. He gave us (limited)free will so that we would come to Him willingly and not by force or obligation, but one of the consequences of free will is having the choice to do wrong. He knew we would need to be saved from ourselves-thus Jesus.
Sorry if this posts twice. My first attempt took me to a page that read-you are not allowed to post on this page, so I re-posted.
macblanegirl on October 21, 2008 at 4:01 AM
And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. [Qur'an 29:46]
Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma’rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn .(3:113-115)
And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. ‘(3:199)’
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . [Qur'an 2:62]
Say (O Muhammad ): “O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. [Qur'an 3:64]
But surely us stupid “Mohammedians” mean nothing but harm to you dhimmis. Even though Islam strictly forbids the worship of idols or anything other than Allah, so they very term Mohhamedians is an indirect slur on the religion.
Converted muslim. I guess if I went around taking biblical verses out of context I could paint christianity and judaism bad as well, but I prefer to spend my time in a more constructive manner than denigrating religions of which I am not a part. Seriously. Although I was born as a Jehovah’s Witness and was once a baptisted Christian.
flashoverride on October 21, 2008 at 5:12 AM
OK great. I really appreciate your efforts.
Could you educate us then, about the context for these? I find them very confusing:
Thanks very much. I appreciate any education and clarification you can provide in this
LegendHasIt on October 21, 2008 at 5:54 AM
MadisonConservative, macblanegirl gave a pretty good answer, I would just like to add that God gave us free-will because He didn’t want robots. He wanted us to come to Him and to love Him of our own free will. Free-will unfortuneatly also leads to man committing horrible acts, however, including the very first one of taking the Devil’s advice and disobeying God in the Garden of Eden. So it’s the fault of Man for listening to the Devil.
MC, have you ever read C.S. Lewis’s “Mere Christianity”? He really gets into free will in the chapter, IIRC, titled “Tin Soldiers”; but the entire book is a wonderfully simple and enlightening explanation of Christianity.
-Aslan’s Girl
Aslans Girl on October 21, 2008 at 8:18 AM
PS, meant to say “macblanegirl gave a pretty good and succint answer”, hope macblanegirl doesn’t mind my post which is essentially making the exact same point as hers, only in my own words, LOL! What happened was I already formed an answer and then saw macblanegirl’s post but still wanted to join in anyway ;) Rock on, macblanegirl!
-Aslan’s Girl
Aslans Girl on October 21, 2008 at 8:23 AM
I like the guy. I believe there is an element of truth to what he says. Obama may be a Christian but he’s a very mixed up one due to the heresy of Liberation Theology. DD
Darvin Dowdy on October 21, 2008 at 8:34 AM
St. Olaf seems to be a bit of a wild hair, but MadCon here apparently does not understand how Christianity views the Old Testament.
MadCon, for the record, Christian theology regards the Old Testament as historically and religiously authoritative, but the laws given to Moses and recorded therein as superseded. Those laws can be used as a gauge of the character and intent of the Almighty, but Christians are obliged only to obey the spirit of the laws, not the letter. Rather, the Christian is supposed to live in the Spirit of Christ, and by that Spirit be led to behave as Christ intended us to behave, and thus fulfill the intent of the Law.
Most of us recognize that the Old Testament is an Ancient Near East (ANE) document that addresses ANE people in terms with which they would have been comfortable and familiar. A lot of it sounds dicey to modern readers because our culture is so different from theirs. God does not intend that ANE customs be imposed over modern audiences, but the core virtues reflected therein still apply.
Olaf is correct when he says there’s no command to kill unbelievers. Quite the contrary: Old Testament law flew in the face of common ANE custom by commanding Israel to treat aliens among them with love and dignity, and forbidding them to shun aliens or abuse them. This foreshadows the egalitarian view of the New Testament, and the universal respect for human dignity that arises from it.
Think of the difficulty of turning Iraqis into Jeffersonian democrats, and you’ll get the idea of what God faced when trying to instruct ancient Israel. He couldn’t just drop the 21st century on them cold (ignoring for the moment that 21st century morality probably isn’t much better than ANE morality in lots of ways). Old Testament law planted seeds that got watered by the New Testament, and came to maturity during the following centuries of Church polity.
philwynk on October 21, 2008 at 8:37 AM
Not to be contrarian or anything, but I think the guy in this video has a right to be heard. I think he’s a bit of an idiot — Obama’s Indonesian preschool is not particularly relevant — but I find the application of political correctness by mobs to be a lot more frightening than the prating of idiots.
I do understand the point that media types will take these few idiots and broadcast them around the world as though they were the mainstream; still, it’s crucial that we stand for the liberty of even those we think are fools to speak openly their beliefs. Inasmuch as we allow the Left’s vicious and coercive “morality” temper our speech, we surrender our liberty to tyrants.
They should have let the man speak. It’s his right.
philwynk on October 21, 2008 at 8:42 AM
Not a problem Aslans Girl, we’re on the same page and that’s not a bad thing.
macblanegirl on October 21, 2008 at 8:58 AM
Why don’t the McCain supporters go confront the enemy instead of one of their own? He’s been far more concerned about what his supporters say about Our Lord and Savior Barack Hussein Obama than what The Apostles say about him and Gov. Palin.
Sorry, Senator, but your opponent is not a decent man, and I for one am sick and tired of being criticized by you for criticizing Him. No decent man would stand by and allow his brownshirt thugs to do go Bristol and Trig Palin or to Joe the Plumber. This is a clear indication of what will happen to anyone who opposes Him.
But the McCain people care more about not using His middle name or talking about The Messiah’s Muslim past. No wonder they’re going to lose and lose in a Reaganesque landslide. They don’t want to win, apparently.
pdigaudio on October 21, 2008 at 9:07 AM
philwynk on October 21, 2008 at 8:42 AM
I agree, but I think they did let him speak.
I also think that the ‘muslims’ who said that one guy just ‘lost my vote’ are just as absurd.
So many fools, so little time. ha
bridgetown on October 21, 2008 at 9:24 AM
Esthier
You are still butting heads with the same people over the same damn things. I don’t know how you do it.
Krydor on October 21, 2008 at 9:54 AM
Wow. Notice how some of those in the vid were concerned with not sounding racist.
Though the guy had a point, I guess he didn’t go about it in a politically correct way. Seems to me many there were thinking what the guy was saying, but didn’t want to be identified with it. Hmmmm…..
Badger40 on October 21, 2008 at 10:15 AM
Why I am not voting for Barack H Obama
1. He is a Democrat. Have not voted for a ‘D’ ever, 44 yrs and counting.
2. He is a socialist. See 1 above.
3. He is a radical with communist leanings. Ayers, and many others
4. Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Dick Durbin, Charles Schumer, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Maxine Waters, Henry Waxman, etc. Need I say more?
Dasher on October 21, 2008 at 10:34 AM
yes she is, along with her tag-team partner madisonwacko!
right4life on October 21, 2008 at 10:51 AM
I see the Insane Clown Posse of Holy Warriors is out in force.
ronsfi on October 21, 2008 at 11:12 AM
ronsfi on October 21, 2008 at 11:12 AM
LOL
bridgetown on October 21, 2008 at 11:19 AM
Ah, your old argument. “If you disagree with me, you’re EVIL!”
Very conservative. You never hear Obama supporters say that.
MadisonConservative on October 21, 2008 at 11:23 AM
all ya got is hate and bile. you have no good arguments. all you can do is call christians names, like a good wacko lib.
I’ve never heard you make a cogent argument against my position on gay marriage for instance. all you can do is say I’m bigoted, hateful, etc. yadayadayad.
right4life on October 21, 2008 at 11:50 AM
Comment pages: « Previous 1 ... 3 4 5 6 Next »