My frustration at Mass
posted at 7:46 am on October 20, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Yesterday evening, we attended Mass and for a moment thought we would hear actual instruction in the fundamentals of the Catholic faith. After hearing one of my favorite passages in the Gospels, the “Render unto Caesar” confrontation between Jesus as the Pharisees, our priest broached the subject of what belongs to secular government and what belongs to God in the context of elections and choices made by voters. Unfortunately, he wound up wasting a good opportunity to clarify the Catechism to those who ignore it.
The priest prefaced his remarks by noting that we have the freedom not to vote, as well as the freedom to vote. If we have the choice of two unacceptable candidates, he said, why vote for either one? This is a defensible argument, but one with which I disagree. No candidate is perfect, and some are worse than others. In his construction, we will wind up being governed or represented by one of the two candidates, and my vote would go to the one who will do less damage. To do otherwise pretends somehow that neither candidate will get elected thanks to my apathy, and that’s an irresponsible solution to a bad situation.
The homily took a better direction when he began discussing the nature of freedom. It comes from the Creator, as our founding documents recognize, and not from government, in the nature of our own individual creation. We are free from the moment of conception, and that cannot nor should not be rendered to Caesar — if we expect to remain free. That belongs to God and God alone. To vote for those who act otherwise threatens the freedom of all, but especially those who come after us. How can people vote for those who would render unto Caesar what belongs to God?
Unfortunately, even my description above is slightly more specific than the priest’s. When I mentioned abortion and the Catholic vote at the end of my NARN show on Saturday, complete with specific references to the Catechism, one caller who had planned on arguing with me over its place in doctrine changed his tune. Instead, he said that I seemed more interested in instructing Catholics on this point than the church itself — and apparently he was right. The priest didn’t need to endorse any specific candidates, but he failed to even mention the word “abortion” or take the teaching moment to instruct Catholics on what the church’s own documents calls a foundational doctrine.
Maybe that shouldn’t surprise me. The last time I heard a priest mention the Catechism during Mass, I was in short pants and people still wore “Sunday clothes” to church. It’s no wonder Catholics believe they can support abortion and still claim to vote as Catholics, or that politicians can protect abortion and run as Catholic candidates for office. Until the clergy stops trying to pander to their congregations and value inclusiveness over truth, those lessons will never be taught. I give last night’s homilist credit, though, for coming closer to that than any priest I’ve heard in decades, but he missed an opportunity to be a real leader of the flock.
Update: To answer one question from the comments, I’m not arguing to impose the Catholic Church on America as the arbiter of political candidates. I’m arguing that politicians who campaign on their membership in the Catholic Church and support abortion are stunningly ignorant of their faith at best, and hypocrites at worst — and Catholics who claim that they can support abortion and these politicians are as well. The Catholic priests in America could at least eliminate the first condition by honestly teaching their congregations what the church itself considers as doctrine on abortion, and until they do, American Catholics will continue to fall prey to pro-abortion hucksters.
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You cannot support abortion and still be human, let alone Catholic.
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 20, 2008 at 7:51 AM
well Colin Powell claims he’s still a Republican too.
Jeff on October 20, 2008 at 7:52 AM
It’s the flock, and the electorate, who’re responsible, accountable, and to laud, or to blame. They/we deserve their priests, preachers of all kinds, and ‘leaders’ in Wash. D.C. too.
Entelechy on October 20, 2008 at 7:53 AM
Ed, there is a catholic church in North Georgia where a Priest actually informed the congregation that you can not be a good Catholic and vote for anyone who supports abortion. I am told that the majority of folks stood up and applauded enthusiastically, while a few remained seated and did not. This whole silent acceptance of abortion thing seemed to have started with the “seamless garment” spew. As if the destruction of an innocent unborn baby is somehow on the same level as the execution of someone like Sadam Hussein or Adolf Hitler. It truly is mind boggling. I am so irked by the Obama bumper stickers seen in the parking lot of mass each Sunday.
bloggless on October 20, 2008 at 7:53 AM
Muslims do not believe in abortion.
bloggless on October 20, 2008 at 7:54 AM
Yup. Just ran a full DNA sequence on myself. Still human. Drats.
Grow Fins on October 20, 2008 at 7:55 AM
Like many Christian religions in the US, the Catholics seem to have jettisoned (or at least decided not to bother much with) too many long held beliefs.
Warner Todd Huston on October 20, 2008 at 7:56 AM
And I’m 16, size 2, absolutely gorgeous, and, yes, of Einsteinian intelligence to top it all.
He should really claim the truth, that he never was one – he just played one when it was advantageous to do so. I’d respect him so much more.
Back on topic, though.
Entelechy on October 20, 2008 at 7:56 AM
The Catholic church seems to have disolved the notion of evil.
bloggless on October 20, 2008 at 7:58 AM
The Ultimate Hypocrisy—–those who stand up and fight to put an end to the death penalty and yet support abortion.
Rovin on October 20, 2008 at 7:59 AM
This is why Obama and the Democrat Congress will be removing the tax exemption for churches as well as removing the tax deductibility of contributions to churches. Ed, Jesus wants a direct one on one relationship, with no “intercessor necessary. In the meantime, I am buying more ammo. If I can find any in this Atlanta suburb, that is. Many gun shops are out of several calibers. Obama may have trouble imposing his rule in this section of the country.
bill30097 on October 20, 2008 at 7:59 AM
I’m not Catholic, I don’t profess to understand all the nuances of that religion, but abortion and the idea of all life being precious and a gift from God, seems pretty fundamental to me. Not really impressed with the hypocracy of “If we don’t talk about it, it’s not happening” That didn’t work out all that well with the whole priest scandal.
anniekc on October 20, 2008 at 7:59 AM
Ed,
Compromise is not just a Catholic thing, it is coming a Christian thing nowadays.
I know how you feel. I’ve attended and left many a Baptist Church in this area. Because of the utter Garbage being taught and/or going on in the Church.
So, I know how you feel.
LibertarianConservative on October 20, 2008 at 7:59 AM
My priest was adament that we shall not support a candidate that supports abortion. The right to life is one of the fundamentals in Catholicism. I guess that is the best we can get. But anyone with common sense should know the Church does not want it’s congregation to vote for Obama.
jencab on October 20, 2008 at 8:00 AM
There is a write-in block on the ballot and I fully intend to use it. Neither McCain or Obama or worthy of the Presidency. If more people would break the hypnotic trance of party lines and vote based on their (conservative)convictions we might actually “shake things up” in D.C. instead of baaaaing to the rhetoric like sheeple and pretending that the nation will somehow be saved because the party candidate isn’t as bad as the other guy.
Fletch54 on October 20, 2008 at 8:01 AM
I’m in RCIA-prolly won’t be reconciled until Easter of 2010(gotta’ get the 1st marriage annulled) anyway Iheard the same sermon yesterday.
At my church we read PJPII’s Prayer for Life at the end of every mass.
CC:
Serious Question.
I support the death penalty and believe that birth control(excluding abortion of course) is a personal decision for a married couple to make.
Does that mean I’ll be a bad catholic?
Thanks.
Does that mean that I won’t make a good catholic
annoyinglittletwerp on October 20, 2008 at 8:01 AM
I resent that whole phrase “a woman’s right to choose.”
It gives a saccharine coating to an otherwise ghastly murder.
No one who ever demands “the woman’s right to choose” first consult the unborn before they jam the coathanger and saline. Disgusting.
Black Adam on October 20, 2008 at 8:03 AM
Perfect example that science can be flawed.
Rovin on October 20, 2008 at 8:05 AM
President Obama will solidify any woman’s right to an abortion with his USSC selections.
Rave on as you will, but the point is moot.
mylegsareswollen on October 20, 2008 at 8:07 AM
My church would be “categorized” as fundamental/evangelical by outsiders. We just call ourselves Christian. A couple of years ago the preacher said (with exceptional passion and he is certainly passionate about scripture) that as a nation we don’t really have to fear destruction by muslims or anyone else as long as we continue to sanction the killing of the unborn. God will take care of the destruction.
texasgirl on October 20, 2008 at 8:07 AM
Ed, that is fascinating. I would love for you sometime, perhaps on a Sunday, to expound on this further. I think it could render some very interesting discussions. Thank you for this post.
Weight of Glory on October 20, 2008 at 8:08 AM
My Episcopal priest used the same Gospel to preach about how those greedy unethical investment bankers caused the financial crisis.
rockmom on October 20, 2008 at 8:09 AM
Amen, Sister E.
One hand on the bible, one hand on my wallet, one eye on the preacher.
Limerick on October 20, 2008 at 8:10 AM
It’s sad that the Catholic church is about one of the only denominations to be waving a small flag against abortion. The Episcopal church actually is supporting abortion as a means of birth control with a church appointed department of radical female apologists.
The Catholic church has a history of priests who are against abortion, yet seem to tread lightly not to offend those folks in the pews. As someone that has left the Church in search of a denomination less politically correct, I once headed up the pro-life group for our parish and was surprised how many people complained and actually took down posters supporting life. There was also the dynamic of crossing over into the area of losing tax free status, which seems as sacred as the Eucharist. Let us not forget how the Clinton’s were without direction on most subjects, but the stamping out of abortion protests was at the top of their agenda and election platform.
The Catholic church is the sanctuary for a majority of Dems that have ties through ethnic and geographical personal history, yet it is a sign of their complete ignorance of the Church they claim to be members that they heartily support others to sin through murdering their offspring, and will answer after their short time on earth for keeping those innocent souls from their place in creation.
Hening on October 20, 2008 at 8:11 AM
There is a write-in block on the ballot and I fully intend to use it. Neither McCain or Obama or worthy of the
Do you really think conservatives can’t spot a liberal troll when the see one Fletch? Why don’t you go make Al Gore proud and go hand feed a polar bear?
Rovin on October 20, 2008 at 8:12 AM
The question we need to ask is are we Catholics first or Americans first? Very difficult to answer. I like to believe that my Catholic faith is the foundation which guides me for all decisions I make. I am not perfect by any means ,but I do believe that trying to live in a “Christlike” way (I am not even close) is not incompatable with living the American way.
That said, I find it really hard to understand how any reasonable Catholic can support a radical pro-abortion candidate. It blows me away.
joepub on October 20, 2008 at 8:14 AM
Ed, this is all I can tell you….2 Tim 4:3
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires;
boomer on October 20, 2008 at 8:14 AM
In our mass yesterday, the deacon pointed out that there were pamphlets written by a council of bishops in the back of church explaining our duty to vote our conscience, but making it none-to-unclear that Catholics are not in any way pro-abortion. He even gave out a website in case the pamphlets ran out. (Direct link http://www.usccb.org/prolife/issues/abortion/index.shtml)
Sugar Land on October 20, 2008 at 8:14 AM
Ed: My Episcopalian Pastor Maxine’s sermon was also from Matthew 22:21 “Render Unto Ceasar…” the election and separation of church and state….After she read the part of Jesus asking whose face was on the coin and he was told Ceasar’s, etc., she turned to us and said “We are God’s coins, made in his likeness.” All of us are his treasures, Ed, all of us including the unborn.
gracie on October 20, 2008 at 8:17 AM
The one time I found myself agreeing with Ralph Nader, was when he proposed that all electoral ballots must give a “none of the above” option. If any “none of the above” wins the election, then that race must be done over with new candidates.
I liked it.
Saltysam on October 20, 2008 at 8:17 AM
Now there is a curious misapplication of both language and logic. Assuming you are not a Drive-By Troll and are willing to engage in dialog, please explain how a woman’s right to choose to abort her unborn child is correlative of one’s existence as a human being.
I’d love to hear this.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 8:18 AM
By the way Ed, maybe you should check out gbntv.org if you want to hear some good Biblical lessons.
boomer on October 20, 2008 at 8:19 AM
Ed,
Our pastor has directed us to the following website:http://www.faithfulcitizenship.org/. “….responsible citizenship is a virtue and participation in political life is a moral obligation….” .
red131 on October 20, 2008 at 8:20 AM
I find it
really hardeasy to understand howany reasonablean ignorant, nominal Catholic can support a radical pro-abortion candidate.Clarified it for you.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 8:20 AM
Sorry, here is the link:
red131 on October 20, 2008 at 8:21 AM
My post was intended to be about abortion. I, myself, am not Catholic, so I cannot speak to the issue of Catholics and birth control. When I was a young man with no children, I didn’t give it a thought either way. When I held my firstborn (of four), the opposition to abortion was instant and deep. I strongly suspect that a large portion of women that support abortion so adamantly do so, not out of some conviction, but out of a desire to have something they have done get some sort of “blessing” as acceptable when they know in their heart what a horrible act they have committed…
Humans are animals and are constrained by basic animal drives like any other. The deepest drive in any animal is preservation of the species. Any overt behavior that goes against that basic drive is inherently “wrong”. Take that as you will.
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 20, 2008 at 8:26 AM
Riiighhht!
hawkdriver on October 20, 2008 at 8:26 AM
All to often these days we don’t vote to get the best candidate into office, but rather we vote to keep the worst candidate out.
Dreadnought223 on October 20, 2008 at 8:26 AM
One more reason why Muslims > Liberals.
Darth Executor on October 20, 2008 at 8:27 AM
And that is the issue. As gracie stated above we are created in God’s image.
When Jesus held up the coin to be paid for the tax, He asked, “Whose image is on the coin?” His “render” statment was meant to impress upon His disciples that we have the image of God “stamped” on us. That is what makes life sacred and worth protecting.
The unborn have the same freedoms as the rest of us.
davidk on October 20, 2008 at 8:28 AM
Man, you really are dumber than a brick wall, aren’t you?
Darth Executor on October 20, 2008 at 8:28 AM
i went to catholic school my whole life, and i never once heard a homily on abortion. the vatican II priorities in particular did not emphasize abortion as the “be all end all” of faith or dogma.
i dont understand your frustration, however. i dont understand how it seems so obvious to some that the number one most important thing the bible and catechism is opposition to abortion.
and besides, people use abortion as a way to gloss over the fact they ignore 1/2 the bible’s teaching anyway…like all that stuff about the meek (im talkin to you rush/hannity/et al.) inheriting the earth and about it being easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle than get a rich man to heaven (heres to you dobson/robertson/etc etc).
your priorities arent necessarily THE priorities one must keep with regards to the church ed. respect their right to shape their own message, or if you really cant take it go talk to your pastor.
ernesto on October 20, 2008 at 8:30 AM
The church has not officially condemned capital punishment. Contraception, however, is a different matter. If you choose to become a Catholic and do so of your own, informed, consent then you must be willing to accept the responsibilities that come with practicing the Catholic faith. The Church has always and consistently taught that artificial contraception is gravely sinful. This teaching is laid out with exquisite precision and clarity in the encyclical Humane Vitae and summed up concisely in the Official Catechism of the Church.
That said, what you and your spouse do privately is between you and God and it is to God alone that you will answer if your actions are sinful.
I have no way of knowing if you are or will be a good Catholic or a bad Catholic. Only you and God know that.
FWIW.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 8:31 AM
And Muslims are at least honest about their beliefs and their intent, unlike liberals.
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 20, 2008 at 8:31 AM
No. But if you care to enlighten me, I’ll give a listen. Have at it.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 8:32 AM
And yet, conservatives typically delve in the same hypocrisy by *supporting* the death penalty and fighting for an end to abortion.
The abortion/death penalty juxtaposition is a personal quandary for me, my fiscal and social conservatism is in disagreement with my moral viewpoint. That being said, I’d rather be condemned for killing child rapers than to be sitting on the side of the fence that condones killing unborn children.
Geministorm on October 20, 2008 at 8:33 AM
ManlyRash:
I see you’ve snagged an early troll… first response was to attack your intelligence with no real debate. Enjoy your morning sport…
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 20, 2008 at 8:33 AM
Anyone not voting McCain at this point is either a moron or a useful idiot. In two weeks, you will see Jonah Goldberg’s Liberal Fascism in action.
googe:
Unless some miracle occurs, Obama’s first term starts. If you think it’s only 8 years, think again. The 22nd amendment will go before the 2nd.
gh on October 20, 2008 at 8:34 AM
Judas was a scholar. Spread the Word.
el hombre on October 20, 2008 at 8:35 AM
You quoted a guy who was claiming the exact opposite of what you thought he was claiming.
Darth Executor on October 20, 2008 at 8:35 AM
In 2005, four Democrats submitted a bill to abolish the 22nd admendment. It was tabled. I’m sure they did this so Bush could run again….
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 20, 2008 at 8:35 AM
They don’t ban it, either. Something tells me they’re not all that big into women’s rights.
Kafir on October 20, 2008 at 8:36 AM
It looks like your IQ is not particularly high either since you keep repeating that stupid “my muslim faith” quote completely oblivious to its context. Morons like you help bring Obama to power. I hope you know that.
Darth Executor on October 20, 2008 at 8:37 AM
Is this why the liberal left hate Sarah Palin so much?
Crux Australis on October 20, 2008 at 8:37 AM
very interesting post. Our Priest yesterday came very close to saying vote for pro-life, but did not say it. Instead he gave a sermon on how everything we do has to be to God’s plan, not man’s, although there is importance in government it should take a back seat to God’s plan. I wonder if the church is expressly telling Priest’s not to use the word abortion and stay away from the political angle of this? Unfortunately, I have friends within our church/school community that are voting for Obama and have no idea about his voting history on abortion. It is sad.
momof2 on October 20, 2008 at 8:37 AM
Which one? It appears the first one fled the scene – another Drive-By Troll, alas. The second one looks like a fighter. Can’t wait to gaff him and haul him into the boat.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 8:37 AM
I’m a long-time visitor of hotair and Allahpundit groupie. I have to leave soon (some of us do more than waste days in their mother’s basement posting stupid crap on the internet) but I reckon you’ve been humiliated enough for today.
Darth Executor on October 20, 2008 at 8:41 AM
Our Church has been hammering on the need to vote responsibly. Our weekly diocesan newspaper has had many articles regarding the need to look at a candidate’s views on life, and it has presented it in a way that shows that life comes first. This is the 1st time I’ve ever seeen them comment to this degree. They’re not crossing the line, they’re not endorsing, but they’re making it really clear what the Catholic position is on pro-life issues so that those who are trying to distort or morph it are unsuccessful in their arguments. I’ve been impressed.
sheesh on October 20, 2008 at 8:41 AM
If it’s any consolation to you, Ed, the very same thing is happening in Protestant churches too. A lot of them nowdays preach a “feel-good” or a prosperity gospel or a combination of the two. Sin, redemption, right living is seldom if ever mentioned.
abcurtis on October 20, 2008 at 8:43 AM
Humans, who are created in the image of God, are constrained by their own notions. Christians are constrained by Jesus’ love.
davidk on October 20, 2008 at 8:43 AM
ManlyRash:
I can’t have any more kids-my son’s in high school-so it’s a mute point anyway.
I still support it.
annoyinglittletwerp on October 20, 2008 at 8:45 AM
The people wouldn’t have listened anyway. I question people who remain Catholic given how the church’s hierarchy attacks abortion. The pro-choice Catholics could care less. I suppose it is one way to express your freedom, but leaving Catholicism would be so much better.
thuja on October 20, 2008 at 8:46 AM
Saddam died in a more humane manner than the aborted child in the womb does. Saddam wasnt soaked with a killer fluid then chopped to pieces first. Abortion is straight out of the bowels of Hell.
abcurtis on October 20, 2008 at 8:47 AM
HJ 24 by Hoyer (Democrat), Berman (Democrat), Sensenbrenner (Chicago born Republican, WI), Sabo (Democrat – lost to Keith Ellison, our first Muslim representative) & Pallone (Democrat). My mistake… they had a token Republican on the bill to abolish the 22nd amendment.
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 20, 2008 at 8:48 AM
Sad fact. Priests want their own social insurance security.
And they want the recognition of representing Christ without willingly taking Jesus’ advice. The scriptures are dutifully read, but homilies divert the word. Rather than convert the congregation to have ears that hear by impromptu speech as the Holy Spirit directs, the homily accommodates preconceived PC agenda.
It wouldn’t matter except that priests feign to directly represent Jesus on earth to their parish. But since that is every priest’s claim to fame, and indeed their calling, it matters when they do not speak as Jesus did with authority. When priests speak as the scribes and Pharisees that is all they are, literary political agents vying for selfish power over the masses.
No one of us is perfect.
Still, upon the innocence of babies, “Suffer the little ones to come unto me for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven.”
maverick muse on October 20, 2008 at 8:48 AM
Before you gaff him, you may want to be sure he’s a keeper… most have been severly undersized lately.
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 20, 2008 at 8:50 AM
Manly, It’s always more fun to loosen the drag and let them run [off at the mouth] for a bit.
Rovin on October 20, 2008 at 8:51 AM
It is good to have ammunition. However, economics limits the amount that gun shops keep in stock. It’s NOT all about the O.
Right_of_Attila on October 20, 2008 at 8:52 AM
Buy your preist ” Render unto Caesar ” by Archbishop Charles Chaput. It may be a little late for the election but it may change his thinking. As a matter of fact, anyone who thinks they are Catholic should read this book, it will open your eye’s my friends.
ambuldog on October 20, 2008 at 8:53 AM
You are a sportsman of the first order. I, on the other hand, fish for the freezer.
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 20, 2008 at 8:53 AM
Really? Read it again – this time read it carefully.
Fins is asserting that the Catholic Church regards those who support “a woman’s right to choose” (that’s a tell right there)as not even human. Fins then goes on to lament that he/she/it is, in fact, human. Get it? Apparently not.
The subtlety of the message obviously escaped you, so I’ll explain it: Fins is setting up a classic strawman when he/she/it makes the initial assertion. The strawman is then knocked down when Fins responds that, in spite of the Church’s refusal to regard as human those who believe in a “woman’s right to choose,” he/she/it nevertheless remains human – the implication being that Fins supports “a woman’s right to choose” regardless of anything the Church has to say on the matter.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 8:55 AM
In every election, a vote for a third party, while helping the voter feel good and pure, is in effect, a vote for whoever wins.
If you honestly feel that there is no difference between McCain and Obama, then you might as well vote for Obama, you are as dumb and clueless as most of his supporters anyway.
MarkTheGreat on October 20, 2008 at 8:55 AM
Heh…gaffed, boated, gutted an filleted at 8:55 AM. I do believe that’s a record, CC.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 8:57 AM
Dave from Flint on October 20, 2008 at 8:57 AM
The Catholic Church is dying in the U.S. It’s becoming irrelevant. And that’s really a shame. Sorry to go off topic, but I do believe the best way to fix that is to permit priests to marry. I really think that would turn things around quickly and get some new blood in the church. Too long the priesthood was a refuge for homosexuals (estimates suggest 50-75% of priests are gay). So now you have a bunch of aged priests with questionable morality in their own lives…and you expect them to preach the gospel without “spin?”
Outlander on October 20, 2008 at 8:58 AM
WRONG.
Government ( public) Sanctioned Death penalty executions are akin to Natural Death.
In fact the Bible does not say thou shall not Kill, it says thou shall not Murder, there is a Significant difference.
ZagChuck on October 20, 2008 at 9:00 AM
As a Southern Baptist minister I agree with your pastor 100%. I’ve even made the point myself many times. Of course, on the other hand, God may be using Islam to bring judgment on this country. He used pagan nations many times in the OT to bring judgment on a disobedient Israel.
abcurtis on October 20, 2008 at 9:00 AM
Supporting abortion & claiming to be Catholic is kinda like Jimmy Swaggart spending the night with a whore & claiming to be born again, except only the latter is subject to media ridicule.
jgapinoy on October 20, 2008 at 9:01 AM
Yum… sushi on the way in!
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 20, 2008 at 9:01 AM
Actually next to my McCain/Palin bumper sticker is the long time phrase: “CATCH AND RELEASE—IN GARLIC AND BUTTER”
Rovin on October 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM
That’s why I say that an Obama win could be interpreted as either judgment or discipline from God.
jgapinoy on October 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM
My Anglican (NOT Episcopal) priest discussed that passage yesterday. It had nothing to do with politics, other than a brief comment on the Jewish and Roman politics of the day needed to provide historical context. And he did tie it to the Catechism.
TREGONSEE on October 20, 2008 at 9:02 AM
I find it interesting that those who will not take the mark o the beast in revelation are beheaded…
right4life on October 20, 2008 at 9:03 AM
That’s right. They wait until you’re born and call it an honor killing.
Ronnie on October 20, 2008 at 9:04 AM
There is a shortage of priests because there is a shortage of practicing Catholics. One can harest crops only from fertile soil in which the seeds have been planted and the new crops nurtured, such as in those dioceses where bishops such as Charles Chaput have jettisoned the excesses and idiocies that dominated the Church in the U.S. after Vatican II and instituted more traditional Catholic spirituality and rubrics. In those dioceses, the seminaries are turning away candidates for the priesthood.
ManlyRash on October 20, 2008 at 9:06 AM
The people of the US have been undergoing a process of demoralization; this has brought them to the point that despite an abundance of information no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interest of defending themselves, their families (including the unborn), their community and their country. Yuri Bezmenov, an ex-KGB operative, explains:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlpODYhnPEo
Sounds like the priest is trying to get more bodies in the door, that’s all. How can you expect truth from such a sell out? Better for Christians to read the Gospel and discuss among themselves.
Thanks for sharing that, Captain Ed, and for all you do.
rishika on October 20, 2008 at 9:06 AM
Isnt it interesting that the radical feminists in churches are intent on destroying the image of God? After all, even the child in the womb is made in God’s image.
abcurtis on October 20, 2008 at 9:07 AM
Entelechy on October 20, 2008 at 7:56 AM
Did you take that the way I meant it? Or did you think it was off topic?
Squishy on abortion = Stll Catholic
Vote for Omessiah = Still Republican
Jeff on October 20, 2008 at 9:10 AM
Jesus treasured babies and the little children above all people, and advised adults to be meek in order to comprehend. He emphasized being born and being born again as a requirement to receiving and being received by God.
And for any who defile or offend innocence, causing a stumbling block to the advancement of innocence towards wisdom, it would be better had the offender never been born, and that a millstone be bound around the neck of the guilty to be drowned.
Jesus believed in capital punishment, and required capital punishment to accomplish the atonement of humanity. He specifically allowed himself to be put to death under capital punishment. Had he denounced capital punishment, God’s work through Jesus could not have been perfected.
The early ACLU rhetoric, better to release a hundred guilty than execute one innocent, does not hold its own moral water.
Abortion has never been practiced or tolerated by righteous Christians. Eugenics is not natural but unnatural. Instead of executing criminal adults, the powers instigating the ACLU execute innocent babies in the womb.
Interesting to note here the latest “be prepared” news from the British Boy Scouts.
maverick muse on October 20, 2008 at 9:10 AM
My priest came right out and said the word abortion and discussed it. He told us is was a difficult topic but one that needed to be discussed. Please visit “Faithful Citizenship.org” for the American Conference of Bishops thoughts on many matters currently facing us. I have felt that ACofB was often too liberal.
red131 on October 20, 2008 at 9:12 AM
So true. My diocese, the Diocese of Trenton, currently has 30 men in the seminary.
red131 on October 20, 2008 at 9:14 AM
Some priests of Bishops might do that, but the Catholic Church has not changed it’s teachings. The Vatican and many USA Bishop have been speaking very strongly on this subject. So does my priest. Abortion is a fundamental issue and catholics cannot support it under any circumstances.
This from the bishops of Kansas:
“A correct conscience recognizes that there are some choices that always involve doing evil and which can never be done even as a means to a good end. These choices include elective abortion, euthanasia, physician-assisted suicide, the destruction of embryonic human beings in stem cell research, human cloning, and same-sex “marriage.” Such acts are judged to be intrinsically evil, that is, evil in and of themselves, regardless of our motives or the circumstances. They constitute an attack against innocent human life, as well as marriage and family. Pope John Paul II warned that concern for the “right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination” (Christifideles Laici 38).
…
Concerning choices that are intrinsically evil, Catholics may not promote or even remain indifferent to them. In light of the above, it is a correct judgment of conscience that we would commit moral evil if we were to vote for a candidate who takes a permissive stand on those actions that are intrinsically evil when there is a morally-acceptable alternative. What are we to do, though, when there is no such alternative?
Because we have a moral obligation to vote, deciding not to vote at all is not ordinarily an acceptable solution to this dilemma. So, when there is no choice of a candidate that avoids supporting intrinsically evil actions, especially elective abortion, we should vote in such a way as to allow the least harm to innocent human life and dignity. We would not be acting immorally therefore if we were to vote for a candidate who is not totally acceptable in order to defeat one who poses an even greater threat to human life and dignity.”
You can find the hoe article here:
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=7243
neuquenguy on October 20, 2008 at 9:16 AM
For a clear exposition of the position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on the subject of abortion, go to the following site:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=b4b8db98e2b9c110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1
The author, Russell M. Nelson, was a heart surgeon before becoming a Church leader.
Heiress on October 20, 2008 at 9:17 AM
That is a very good point Gracie.
abcurtis on October 20, 2008 at 9:23 AM
Well said, E. He is a politician, and was one when he was in the military, as opposed to being a soldier. He was perfect for the State Department – he thought like a State leftist even before he went there.
Jaibones on October 20, 2008 at 9:27 AM
Ed, some of the best priests in the world are Catholic military chaplains. In my 15 years being a military wife (married 20), I can say there are really, REALLY good priests out there. I see a lot of them. My priest here in Korea (we’re stationed in Daegu, Korea right now and I work for the parish) preaches phenominal homilies. He also mentions in his homily our obligation as Catholics to vote, and to vote according to the fundamentals of the faith. We should vote for pro-life candidates.
We had a phenominal priest at Ft. Bragg (an Airborne priest, don’t cha know) who preached against sin from the pulpit, talked about mortal sin and its gravity, the responsiblity to vote, and talked about the Catechism and taught from it weekly.
You should join the Army. It would really lift your spirits.
Amy Proctor on October 20, 2008 at 9:27 AM
So Ed, if I understand you right, you want our vote in the Election to be based on Catholic Doctrine, and you want any Catholic who supports abortion to be Excommunicated?
SoulGlo on October 20, 2008 at 9:28 AM
I’m in RCIA-prolly won’t be reconciled until Easter of 2010(gotta’ get the 1st marriage annulled) anyway Iheard the same sermon yesterday.
At my church we read PJPII’s Prayer for Life at the end of every mass.
CC:
Serious Question.
I support the death penalty and believe that birth control(excluding abortion of course) is a personal decision for a married couple to make.
Does that mean I’ll be a bad catholic?
Thanks.
Does that mean that I won’t make a good catholic
Supporting the death penalty does NOT make you a “bad catholic”. The Church itself does not outlaw or condemn the death penalty, just asks that it be used judiciously and rarely, as in there being no possibility of reform of the criminal involved. Concerning birth control- your views are completely out of whack with Holy Mother Church, period. Read JPIIs seminal works on marriage- Love and Responsibility I believe is the name. The use of birth control impedes open faithfulness to God and to your spouse. Think of it in terms of that rather than “birth control”, and I believe that you will be pleasantly surprised. Your marriage will be stronger, as therea are no barriers to life.
trainwife1962 on October 20, 2008 at 9:32 AM
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