Hidebound blogger tries getting hip with new OS
posted at 10:20 am on October 19, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
I’ve worked with computers for almost a quarter-century, but with the exception of some mainframe management in SCO Unix, I’ve been a PC/Windows adherent. I used to build my own PCs until about ten years ago, when it got too cheap to buy custom PCs to make it worth all of the effort to assemble them myself. I’ve mostly bought laptops in the last few years, which got me out of the self-build mode altogether, but I’ve always wanted to try something new.
I’ve had an old IBM Thinkpad laying around gathering dust for several months. It came from a consulting relationship with my last corporate employer, but they haven’t needed my services in a long time, and it ran on Windows NT, which is next to impossible to customize. I figured it would make a good environment for an experiment in Linux, which I’ve never used.
After starting off with a trial version of Red Hat, which I botched completely, I installed Ubuntu. This looks like an easy-to-use entry level Linux OS. It has a point-and-click environment and many native applications, and it also has OpenOffice embedded in it. I switched to OpenOffice a few months ago when I gave up on the resource-hogging Microsoft Office, and I have never regretted it. Firefox came installed, and I added Thunderbird — and after several attempts, finally figured out how to import my settings from my other laptop. I’ve even managed to impress my son, who didn’t think I’d ever get adventurous enough to defy the corporate control of Microsoft, or something. I couldn’t quite make out what he said through his laughter.
Now, though, I’m a little at a loss. I don’t know the command-line protocols very well, having forgotten almost all of my SCO Unix, which is probably not very applicable anyway. If the laptop will be my back-up, I’ll need a good photo and video editor as well as a better RSS feedreader than Newsfox (Omea doesn’t have a Linux version, unfortunately). I’d like to hear from Hot Air readers using Ubuntu. What are your favorite apps, especially in these categories? What tips or tricks do you suggest? And what in Ubuntu works better than Windows, and what doesn’t?
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: 1 2 Next »
We’re waiting for Palin-on-SNL reviews & Powell’s pucker-up to BO summary, & we get geek stuff?
jgapinoy on October 19, 2008 at 10:24 AM
You’re starting to sound like Charles Johnson over at LGF. Stop it.
Patrick S on October 19, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Powell endorses Obama.
wise_man on October 19, 2008 at 10:25 AM
Ed..you won’t regret it. I put it on my wife’s laptop (my own is under corporate control), and she LOVES it. She’s been using it for over a year.
flipflop on October 19, 2008 at 10:25 AM
You lost me at “mainframe”.
Guardian on October 19, 2008 at 10:25 AM
The command line is your friend.
Seriously. While the GUI has gotten better, It’s still far easier and better to use the command line because a> Linux people are CL users and b> more often then not, the GUI just gets in the way.
Remember with the CL that you can use the up arrow to recall previous commands and use the tab key for auto-completion of commands and directory names.
Gimp is the standard photo editor on Linux and very good. If you haven’t figured it out already (I didn’t at first) You should be to do installation of it through the Package Manager in the Administrative tools which has pre-built versions of many free Linux products already for Ubuntu.
Skywise on October 19, 2008 at 10:27 AM
Here’s a tip…do NOT issue the command “rm -rf *”.
flipflop on October 19, 2008 at 10:29 AM
Ed, if you are going to start going on about Linux, I have one word for you. Goodbye.
drunyan8315 on October 19, 2008 at 10:33 AM
Me too. Believe it or not, we’re not all computer geniuses. But it’s your gig, so I guess we have to play along.
;-)
tru2tx on October 19, 2008 at 10:33 AM
I like the linux CL. I prefer GUIs though and linux sucks something awful in that department.
Darth Executor on October 19, 2008 at 10:33 AM
lol. I’m with ya Ed. I am caught up in Obamania and just think the African-sounding OS name might catch on if he wins. Other than that, really windows simlicity is what makes it a good format for average folks and it takes me back to the days before computers were a hosehold item. WHat got computers to be a household item was the simple window approach with PC’s and to the fortunate who can afford it, the MAC. Command line computing is for researchers, programmers and scientists. If it can have a shell which will allow a window (not Windows tm) environment, then it will catch on to the ‘ bluescreen of death’ haters everywhere.
johnnyU on October 19, 2008 at 10:35 AM
OT, I know, but it seems a group of teachers in our area may be using school records to call young adults of voting age on behalf of Obama.
flipflop on October 19, 2008 at 10:35 AM
Get a Mac.
Less “geeky”
Nuff said.
Over.
1GooDDaDDy on October 19, 2008 at 10:35 AM
I am not strong on photo editing, but when I do need to do some type of work on photos, GIMP (installed w/ ubuntu) does the job for me.
I have been using Ubuntu for a little over two years and have seen some great advances for the end user.
Favorite apps: Amarok for iPod/music management/etc, NoMachine NX for remote desktop, Konversation for IRC, Deluge for bit torrent, Pidgin for instant messenger(can use yahoo,gtalk,msn,etc), VLC for video.
I see that your ‘puer is not a dell, but this site has an enormous amount of info to get you up and running
http://www.ubuntu1501.com/
Also, if you have any questions, go to the forum, http://ubuntuforums.org/ , another great resource.
What I like about it more than windows…it is stable! I don’t need to reboot too often and there is just so much software out there that is useful and free!
Good luck and enjoy
lsutiger on October 19, 2008 at 10:36 AM
You won’t regret it Ed.
Bobbertsan on October 19, 2008 at 10:37 AM
I just hate that hipper-than-thou attitude so many Mac users seem to have.
flipflop on October 19, 2008 at 10:38 AM
Surrender to Bill Gates now. Your treachery will not be soon forgotten when the Windoze Robotz come to take over the planet shortly after SkyNet is turned on. Repent! The hour is late!
Jazz Shaw on October 19, 2008 at 10:39 AM
Ed, the biggest problem w/Ubuntu has been with hardware. In my case, wireless cards and graphics cards. Sometimes they can take a lot of work to get ‘em to work.
Bobbertsan on October 19, 2008 at 10:42 AM
Ha! It is coming close to that, check this out It’s a couple of years old story, but awful
lsutiger on October 19, 2008 at 10:42 AM
I installed my extra hard drive from a left over machine that outlived it’s usefulness as a slave drive, installed Ubuntu on it, and have had a dual boot (Windows XP/Linux) system for a little over a year now. I visit the Linux side about once a quarter :-) I have a MacBook Pro that I love! So, I bounce back and forth from my Mac and my Windows PC. Linux gathers dust mainly because I have work to do and not enough time to learn it.
I’m still a geek wanna be.
Ordinary1 on October 19, 2008 at 10:44 AM
I love you guys! I have laughed through this entire thread, even the one where I have not a clue as to what you are talking about. Such good people.
Cindy Munford on October 19, 2008 at 10:45 AM
I’ve used Ubuntu on and off for a while since version 5.04. It has improved a lot over the years, though it still has some work to do. I’ve yet to see a viable video editor for linux that works well, you can try kino, but I found it hard to use. For photo organizing I would recommend F-spot and for photo editing Gimp is pretty good.
Knowing the command line isn’t that important in linux distros any longer. Though learning it helps when your in a tight spot and if you unlock its secret you can gain a lot.
The main feature that I like in ubuntu that is better than windows is the app install program. A simple search can find thousands of great apps. You click a couple buttons and its installed.
I still use windows as my primary os but ubuntu is fun to try.
Complete7 on October 19, 2008 at 10:45 AM
Not to mention the breaking stories about BO & Ayers sharing office space for years, as well as the newly found microfilm evidence that BO really did endorse Ayers’ book. Where are your comments on these?
jgapinoy on October 19, 2008 at 10:47 AM
Oh, and my FAVORITE thing about Ubuntu? The Majhong game that is included is the BEST!
OpenOffice.org has been my word processor of choice for several years now! It’s awesome and FREE for documents, excel and power point. Get yours today!
Ordinary1 on October 19, 2008 at 10:49 AM
Patience comes to those who wait :-)
Ordinary1 on October 19, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Go buy one of those $300 Asus computers. They run on Linux. They work great. No viruses, they run fast and with Firefox, you can’t tell they aren’t Windows.
flyoverland on October 19, 2008 at 10:52 AM
Still on my 1st pot of coffee this morning Mr. Flop.
I had all my ‘puters as PC’s until about 5 months ago, and spent 2/3 of my time “reconfiguring” them or calling tech support or messing with them to get them to work at all.
Years ago I had a job as the assist manager of computer dept. of a major printing outfit.
4 Macs and 15 PC’s lined up against the wall for customer use.
I had to have my people reinstall the PC’s OS every day, all day for months. Never had to mess with the Mac’s. They all ran like a 1970 VW.
I want to work on a project and get it done, and not have hours of down time messing with the damn things.
Starting 2nd pot of Joe now.
Oh, by the why, I was “hip” before modern day computers were invented. Still am I guess.
Over.
1GooDDaDDy on October 19, 2008 at 10:52 AM
For a blogger who needs a lightweight OS that isn’t a resource hog, you’re doing good by going with Linux.
God help you if you decide to play a video game or add a non-standard peripheral.
leetpriest on October 19, 2008 at 10:53 AM
Ubuntu rocks. Contact me if you need any help, particularly with applications or WINE.
Xolom on October 19, 2008 at 10:55 AM
I am looking into Ubuntu, since my brand new Vista laptop will not play the Ironman DVD.
The #$^@*# digital rights management in Vista is just a virus that prevents it from working for legitimate users. Also, my XP machine took over 12 hours to install 10 updates before shutting down on Thursday night and into Friday.
I’ve used IBM JCL, CDC mainframe, various forms of Unix, Apple. The key thing to making them work is to “RTFM”.
Unbutu has RealPlayer. Look for a photo and video editor based on Java, since it is ubiquitous. :-)
Right_of_Attila on October 19, 2008 at 10:55 AM
I don’t bother with a separate RSS feed reader at all. I use Reader from Google, nothing to install and easy to use. I can use it from any computer I encounter.
piraticalbob on October 19, 2008 at 10:57 AM
As a Windows XP, Mac and (rare) Linux user, I’d say they all have their advantages. I got the Mac to avoid Vista and haven’t regretted it! That’s where I do my video editing, and it’s a laptop, so it travels with me. The Windows PC has all of my tried and true programs that I use regularly. I have also loaded some of those on my laptop using Fusion. I’m glad I have both the Mac and Windows XP PC.
Linux is just for hobby and to say, “Yes I can!” but admittedly, barely :-)
Ordinary1 on October 19, 2008 at 11:01 AM
Let me start off by saying I use a different Linux distribution, so I can’t offer much specifically about Ubuntu.
By default, Ubuntu has Gnome installed. I would recommend installing KDE instead. There are two main reasons:
(1) KDE throws many configuration options at you. It may take a while to customize your desktop, but when you do you will be more productive.
(2) There is an effort underway to make KDE applications runnable (natively) on Windows. I have to use Windows occasionally for my job, and I appreciate being able to use familiar applications.
Now, as far as a photo editor, the GIMP is good, but you may also want to consider Krita, which is part of the KOffice suite (KOffice is a lot like OpenOffice.org).
I think out-of-the-box Linux, in general, struggles with video editing. Some advances have been made, but are only found in source code which must be manually retrieved and installed (using “make”).
Lastly, I second the motion of becoming familiar with the command-line. You will be more productive.
stlpct on October 19, 2008 at 11:01 AM
A note about blogging. I write about what interests me. In this blog, it’s really easy to skip over the posts that may not interest you (easier than Captain’s Quarters, where you had to scroll past them). If you don’t like the topic, wait 30 minutes, and a new one will appear most days.
I write 12-15 posts a day on politics. I make my living on politics. I just love the notion that since I’ve written one post on computing (on the weekend) that now I’ll never write on politics again.
Sheesh. Get a grip. The Powell thread has already been written. It’ll appear in a few minutes. I’m taking the rest of my Sunday off.
Ed Morrissey on October 19, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Have a blessed Sunday! Thanx for your hard work.
Ordinary1 on October 19, 2008 at 11:06 AM
I’ve used Ubuntu 7.04 for a year or so on my and my wife’s internet machines, and W2K forever on my image processing computer. If it weren’t for its lacking Photoshop, I’d use Ubuntu on all three.
Bobberstan is right about the lack of manufacturer hardware support but the work-arounds are pretty servicable; Hewlett-Packard doesn’t support it, for instance, but our PSC 750 scanner-printer works fine under SANE.
It’s contrary of me but my feeling is that in the league Ubuntu is trying to play in, command-line input ought not even to come up. If the software has a problem, fix it via an update: the users Ubuntu claims to be targeting aren’t going to screw around with hand-entering fixes.
I tried Ubuntu 8.04.1 recently and it has two serious problems that make it not ready for prime time: frequent screen blackouts and extremely slow scrolling. These are widely commented on on Ubuntu support pages but no fix has yet appeared.
PersonFromPorlock on October 19, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Good for you for trying Linux. It’s fun and OpenOffice and the Gimp make it very usable for most of the tasks you’ll need.
I use Macs because it’s the best of both worlds – commercial applications (Adobe CS, Final Cut, MS Office, iLife, iWork) and all the geeky UNIX under the hood. Comes at a price though, not worth it to or needed by everyone.
Please keep us updated on your progress.
Gilda on October 19, 2008 at 11:11 AM
Well well well… I’m not the only one to have learned by Unix from the Santa Cruz Operation. Years ago, my oldest son and I had a 1/3rd interest in an Internet service provider and we used Linux exclusively. I now do software development exclusivcely and my son is a network guru and still heavily in the unix (Linux) world and big proponent.
I develop currently using MS Visual Studio but I’m converting all my client apps to web based so I can move away from MS dependency. As part of that move, I bought a Mac notebook. For you Mac fans, the O/S is unix under the hood. Open a terminal session and try out a few unix commands and see for yourself…. don’t ya just love ‘grep’? Once I have all my client apps web based, I will move entirely to Linux. Free. Reliable. Flexible. Also for you Mac fans, it took me all of an hour with the Mac to be forced to learn how much more sophisticated it is… no CTL-ALT-DEL… it’s got it’s own “special” three key salute…. I find the machine klunky and use it only for testing sites with Safari. However, I use my PCs for development, so your mileage may vary.
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 19, 2008 at 11:12 AM
You could have written that one back in time….
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 19, 2008 at 11:14 AM
We run debian (ubuntu’s predecessor) 24/7 here.
KDE is a good and pretty easy GUI just as installed.
Yep, GIMP is your photoshop, SANE (or XSANE) runs your scanner. MY Nikon USB camera, just mounts as a disk.
Find Kpackage to install more software.
And, Ed, feel free to email me with Linux questions if you want, so we don’t freak out certain people with geek threads.
Rodent on October 19, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Sheesh. Get a grip. The Powell thread has already been written. It’ll appear in a few minutes. I’m taking the rest of my Sunday off.
Ed Morrissey on October 19, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Have a good one! Go Vikings? Oh, no I remember the picture of you in a Steeler’s jersey. Anyway may your team win unless they are playing the Skins.
Cindy Munford on October 19, 2008 at 11:18 AM
There’s no reason to overpay, and that’s what you do if you’re a normal user and you buy a Mac.
Macs have their place, but for most folks they are wasting their money paying double or more for a Mac over a Wintel (Windows/Intel PC) laptop or desktop or one loaded with Linux (which is even cheaper than a Windows loaded PC, depending on what you spend for the hardware, etc.)…
eanax on October 19, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Ed,
This should answer all your questions.
TheBigOldDog on October 19, 2008 at 11:21 AM
i have recently started running ubuntu as well ed, i like it for the “free” lol
i initialy installed it so i could do some deleting of things on my hdd that i couldnt while in windows, then i decided i wanted an inhouse server for the 7 comps my family have running at all times in my house lol
lamp server is great and you can chmod np, i have several sites built for my kids that they go on sometimes for games i find and add regularly for them.
it worked well all around for me tho so i run it 60% of the time on my personal comp.
linux has come a long way.
have fun :)
trailortrash on October 19, 2008 at 11:22 AM
I switched, but it was due to wanting to send a message to MS for all of Bill Gates liberal wackiness and specifically, MSNBC.
Love the IMAC so far.
hawkdriver on October 19, 2008 at 11:27 AM
Cool choice…what does it do better than Windows? It doesn’t crash. No registry to get mangled and bloated and slow your machine to a crawl over time. Much more configurable (once you learn the ropes) that windows ever was or ever will be. It costs less…etc, etc, etc.
If you like video games, your choices are very limited though.
AUINSC on October 19, 2008 at 11:35 AM
ment to add, Opera 9.60 runs better for me on ubuntu then ff for some reason, it renders pages better and is loads faster for me, it may be a setting i need to look at in ff but opera’s speed and apearance is a thousand times better for me
trailortrash on October 19, 2008 at 11:35 AM
It’s refreshing to have a non-political post now and then and I am interested in Ubuntu. If Ed gets it up and running I hope he post again on this topic and lets us know the pros and cons of that environment. Heaven knows I would love to dump all things Microsoft if there is a suitable substitute.
You don’t like Linux post? Well OK then, goodbye, have a nice trip. Where is it written in the bylaws of HotAir that Thou Shalt Not Post about Linux or tech issues?
Maxx on October 19, 2008 at 11:37 AM
Ubuntu is great. It’s not perfect yet but it’s being improved all the time. Microsoft continues to put out horrible bloatware.
imshocked on October 19, 2008 at 11:38 AM
You consider Gates more liberal than Jobs?????? Yikes! Send a message to both and use Linux.
CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”
CapedConservative on October 19, 2008 at 11:40 AM
Thanks for the “Air Support” when called in FlyBoy.
Back to my water soaked and muddy fox hole now.
I just love “ham and lima beans” for breakfast.
Over.
1GooDDaDDy on October 19, 2008 at 11:42 AM
Ok Ed, I am going to go contrarian to some of the other advise here.
1) Ubuntu is ok. But save yourself some trouble and scrub Ubuntu and go with Linux Mint. Its a Ubuntu deriverative with one plus feature — all those free and third party codecs you will need for video/audio are already installed and ready to go. No tweaking.
2) If you are going to use GIMP, get the 2.6 version. You will have to download and install it (available a http://www.getdeb.com). New interface and new tools make this version more like photoshop than ever. You might also want to look into InkScape if you need to do any vector type drawing.
3) If you are now a Firefox user, have you looked at scribefire a blogging tool? Its the cats meow.
4) In the multimedia realm. For audio only, Audacity is probably the top tool. I have done phone interviews with it in capture mode then use it to slice and dice to a final result. In video you need 2 tools, Kino to do the capture and review of the raw DV. Then for the edits you have two choices — Cinerella or Lives. Cinerella is the most full featured but also the least stable. Nearly as good is Lives which is what I use. More stable, has multitrack capability, etc. Fewer input/output formats though.
4) Command line cheat sheet — here.
5) If you are using Thunderbird for mail, why not just activate the news reader in it? Its pretty good.
Anymore questions — MailTo:MaruAdventurer@gmail.com
Dr. Dog on October 19, 2008 at 11:43 AM
Ed.
I’ve been building linux boxes since 1994 … I’ve tried pretty much everything at least once.
Ubuntu is based on Debian and the workstation version is much more friendly but for servers there is nothing there. Presently, I’m working on an application to completely automate debian server administration but I use the workstation at home.
Feel free to dig my email out of your registration database, if you want any help at any time.
gh on October 19, 2008 at 11:51 AM
I am using Ubuntu Ultimate (Ubuntu on steroids) and will never go back to the Windows Borg. That being said I use Crossover for those Windows apps Like Outlook that I like better. Also for those very, very few times I need to run an app under XP I use Sun’s Virtualbox. GIMP is somewhat similar to Photoshop. But for the most part there are plenty of programs (free) that are very good replacements for the Windows versions. Plus the 6 desktops I have makes switching apps very easy. Don’t need the dual monitors. I grew up on the CL (way back before DOS 1.0 and Windoze) so it wasn’t a problem for me. Also I like the Compiz with Cairo Dock to emulate my old Mac and its dashboard for the Googlets. With the Googlets you can get all sort of RSS feeders and with a keystroke or mouse click they are brought forward.
mustng66 on October 19, 2008 at 11:52 AM
As far as command line entry, the best thing to know is how to navigate the volumes of help files available. Keep a printout of the most common commands in front of you for awhile until you learn them. If you were ever exposed to DOS you’ll get it in no time.
The GUI in Ubuntu is very useful though so I personally haven’t had to even use command line very much.
I use my Linux box as a network video server. I burn my DVD’s to disk and have a set-top box that lets me browse through and choose from a menu of all vids on my network.
Wine_N_Dine on October 19, 2008 at 11:59 AM
Dr. Dog on October 19, 2008 at 11:43 AM
I checked their site and they claim to be Debian-derived. There is no obvious reference to Ubuntu … do you have a link to that. If they are building on Ubuntu it is rather shabby of them not to acknowledge it plainly.
gh on October 19, 2008 at 12:05 PM
Toot! Toot! – warning: blowing own horn here..
I write a daily Unix tech column over at zdnet.com
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Murphy/
Honest advice? Linux is great – much better than Windows. However, for non techie use I strongly recommend the Mac.
Yes it costs a few dollars more – and yes the hardware is the same PC junk you get with Windows, but you’ll never waste a minute futzing and you’ll get those extra dollars back in productivity in the first few weeks.
Paul Murphy on October 19, 2008 at 12:29 PM
Linux is still for geeks (I’m one). I’m oftentimes surprised at how difficult some things are (like a SUSE install that wouldn’t recognize one LCD but then recognized a much older LCD I pulled out of the basement). And don’t get me started on wireless cards or retrofitting laptops.
Fun to muck around with, but WinXP Pro still blows it away all day long for now.
ex-Democrat on October 19, 2008 at 12:33 PM
First, for you idiots whining about a non-political post… grow up. (sorry)
OK as someone who owns, uses and supports all 3 major OS types, they all have their place. For pure “get work done and go on with your life” the Mac wins… For those freak non-standard things, use a Windows box…
But for the most fun using a computer Ubuntu ain’t bad.. MY biggest problem (and it might be a me thing) is that as someone who has been using Photoshop since before Adobe bought it, I just can’t get the whole GIMP thing.
But to answer an important question for Ed, for RSS reader you should give Liferea a try. I have not used it for a few revs but it is/was the bomb. — might be a bit simple for an RSS power user like yourself
Recent round up: http://www.ubuntugeek.com/list-of-rss-readers-available-in-ubuntu.html
Also Ed as a great resource, google this: things to do after install ubuntu
It’s been a fad for a while for people to post their own lists over the last few years. Read 5-6 of them and you’ll get a good feel for the environment and what is out there….
I can think of no faster way to learn about about living with Ubuntu than reading a few people’s list. Everyone has their own take but you’ll get the common themes and the stuff you know will work for you. – 15-20 minutes well spent.
Good luck and mostly, have some fun with it.
Diogenes of Sinope on October 19, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Oh and another vote for Open Office. I installed it about 2 years ago and never looked back.
On my Vista laptop, I installed it “temporarily” the day I got it because I did not have my MS Office disk on me at the moment…
Over a year later, I never have gone back and installed MS. I just never needed it.
Diogenes of Sinope on October 19, 2008 at 12:38 PM
I’ve been using Linux since 1998. I currently have 3 different distros on my primary system at home, including Mint (Ubuntu/Debian offshoot), SuSe 11, and Mandriva One Spring 2008. I typically alter two of the distros frequently for testing purposes and only change the primary distro when I find something I like better or is more stable. I’ve been running a linux server for my home internet connection (as a router, NAT, firewall, mail delivery, DNS, etc.) for about 10 years. Basically, I’m saying I have a good deal of experience with Linux.
Some ground work:
– The Gnome vs. KDE argument is like arguing politics or religion at work, its a no-no. Both window managers are good, and they have recently started to take up ground in opposing directions. Gnome is trying to be more Windows-crossover friendly by making things simple, KDE is more tweakable and appeals to those in the *nix community that love to fiddle with their setup. Apps developed for both often work with the other, although libraries will undoubtedly need to be installed prior to use. I also recommend XFCE or fluxbox depending on how much eye-candy you like (I like having a very sparse desktop to cut down on distractions).
– The CLI (Command Line Interface) is the greatest thing since the invention of the Internet by Al Gore. While MS Windows is constantly taking the power and control out of the hands of its users, the CLI in UNIX/Linux keeps power and control directly in the hands of its users. I can’t live on the computer without it, in fact the only reason I even use Windows anymore is for gaming. I’d like to recommend that you learn to use the CLI/Terminal, but over the years I’ve learned that there is only the dimmest chance that the average Windows cross-over user will ever commit to learning it. So, I don’t get my hopes up, but I will say that once you are comfortable and familiar with the CLI, you’ll wonder why you’d every use anything else. Your experience with UNIX is very applicable to Linux, however most of the commands are more up to date in Linux than on old UNIX boxen, more powerful and feature filled. If you remember man pages in UNIX, you should be fine. The best part is that almost without exception, if you want to get something done in Linux from the CLI, the internet will have resources/people that can answer your questions.
– Performance: Linux in general, has better memory management and resource utilization than Windows. Linux also has a much better networking stack, and will solve security issues in hours instead of days or weeks.
– Apps: The problem with apps in Linux is that there are usually hundreds of apps for every job and sister app in Windows or Mac OS. Since the majority of apps are free (all are free like freedom of speech, most are free like “buy one, get one free”), the hard part is finding ones that really excel beyond their peers. Here is a list of some apps that I use;
Office Suite: Openoffice.org – Actually is better than MS Office in my not-so-humble opinion.
Browser: Firefox or Opera – Some people like Konquerer (KDE’s file manager and browser), but I stick with the above.
IM: Pidgen
Text editor: vim (CLI editor) or gedit (GUI editor).
Music: Amarok – KDE’s iTunes-like music manager, there are dozens, but I really like this one.
Media/DVDs/Video: VLC (VideoLAN Client) – I use this in Windows too.
CD/DVD Burning: Tons of good ones, I typically use whatever is set to the default of the distro. GnomeBaker if you have no idea what to use.
Ripping: I tend to use Grip, but Amarok works on CDs too.
Photo editing: the GIMP is the equivalent of Photoshop in the Windows world, although there are others.
RSS feed: I’m not sure about this, I think I just use Opera for my RSS feeds, although whenever I find a feed I like I use some gadget on my desktop.
Password manager: KeePassX – look it up.
Gaming: I use both Transgaming’s Cedega and WINE.
I could probably go on for days on apps for various stuff, so if you have any specific questions, I’d be happy to answer you. I’m a system/electrical/network engineer (yeah, the linux usage is all just a part of the general geekiness), so I’m used to supporting people on this stuff if you need help.
I would make one suggestion, if you want to use Ubuntu, you should look into Mint Linux. Mint is an Ubuntu offshoot that installs some proprietary drivers (nVidia and 3rd party media plugins for instance) that Ubuntu doesn’t due to licensing issues. Mint installs quickly, makes the setup fairly easy, and uses the Ubuntu repositories so you can install whatever apps you want, but in general you only get the best of the ones you need.
Finally, you want a real educational time drain? Look up Celestia, its a star/solar system viewing program…heh.
Geministorm on October 19, 2008 at 12:38 PM
Seems pretty clear on the “about page” that they are an Ubuntu fork.
The pedigree chart indicates that as well (btw, if you’re a Linux geek, this chart is pretty interesting).
I’v been using Linux basically full-time at home since 1999 (Win ME made me pull the plug on M$). I started on Mandrake, switched RedHat Fedora in 2003 and then to Ubuntu in 2005. Aside from a few apps that there isn’t really any Linux equivalent, I can do nearly everything I want in Linux cheaper, faster, and better. For the few cases where there is no alternative, Sun VirtualBox running a copy of Windows XP is the answer.
Take the plunge. You’ll have a few bumps along the way, but it’s all a learning experience.
BTW, I’m an MCSE and support Windows environments as an IT professional. I get to see the “worst-of the worst” problems with Windows, and it ain’t pretty. Frequently, the only effective solution to a complex problem is to wipe the system and reload from scratch–especially where malware is concerned.
As others have said, as a Photoshop user, you’ll find yourself right at home in GIMP. I don’t do video editing or RSS, so I can’t be much help there.
mojojojo on October 19, 2008 at 12:51 PM
That was all my original comment was based on.
Productivity, or getting your stuff done on time. I’ll pay extra for some piece of hardware if it keeps me from having to waste my time messing with it.
Including lazy employees or loony next door neighbors.
Over.
1GooDDaDDy on October 19, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Ooof! About every 10 months, I switch a computer over to Linux in frustration with Windows. Always the same: I love parts of it, but there’s always one or two things I can’t get to work. The last two times, it was wifi and DVD playing — two things that are deal-breakers for me.
Time before last it was on a ThinkPad, too (Windows decided to crap out on me and my rescue discs are all packed).
Good luck! The good news is, most of your old UNIX commands will still work fine. And it’s wonderful to have a useful command line again!
S. Weasel on October 19, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Stellarium is awesome too. Works w/Windows/Mac/Linux
I’ll check Celestia. I love that kinda stuff.
Ordinary1 on October 19, 2008 at 12:57 PM
Whoops, I guess my post was pretty much irrelevant, since many had already posted everything I had to say (Dr. Dog on suggesting Mint, for example).
To the poster asking about Mint; Ubuntu is a Debian derivative, but it uses its own repositories (geek-talk for where all of the software that is approved is maintained and stored). Because Ubuntu has become so big/popular, it has a very large and well maintained set of repositories. Mint uses the Ubuntu repositories to build and maintain its distro but does things a little differently, as mentioned it puts on the 3rd party software that Ubuntu doesn’t (see my aforementioned post about nVidia drivers, and various other codecs and plugins). Debian –> Ubuntu –> Mint. In essence, Mint is the grandchild of Debian and the child of Ubuntu.
Ed, if you need any guidance, geministorm @t gmail dot com.
I’ve probably installed and tested well over 100 distros in ~10 years, so I’m pretty familiar with the majority of distros and the various install issues. About the only thing you really need to be careful of if you’re installing on a “old” system (meaning that you are moving it from Windows to Linux), is the partitioning and formatting of the disks. Gparted (Gnome Partition Editor) is your friend…
Geministorm on October 19, 2008 at 1:09 PM
The problem with Linux is that everything nowadays — hardware, software, devices — is designed for Windows and Mac. I put Ubuntu on my laptop, and though I like it, I still haven’t gotten wireless to work (the chipset was too new, I guess) and I don’t dare to get it to work with my external devices. I can’t watch “free” television shows on it except in Hulu (the copy protection schemes they have only work on Windows and Mac). And the windows system seems to think maximize to full screen should only take up 3/4 of the screen.
On the other hand, everything runs much more quickly than in Windows, which seems to indicate to me that it’s especially useful for older hardware (like your ThinkPad), on which most of the above problems aren’t problems. If you have a computer that seems too slow to keep, Linux might be a great solution for extending its lifespan.
I use Linux mainly for working on academic papers, surfing the web, and playing Tetris. If something doesn’t work in Linux, I dual-boot back into Vista, since it came with my laptop whether or not I liked it. As for Mac, it’s no coincidence that the highest concentration of Macs are found in places with the highest concentration of Obama supporters….
calbear on October 19, 2008 at 1:19 PM
Well, Captain, it took you long enough…
for image processing, the gimp is the most advanced application under linux. You can do nearly everything that photoshop lets you do. You get it either from ubuntu via applications:add/remove or by going to http://www.gimp.org and downloading it from there.
I don’t know of any movie editing software which doesn’t break down frequently. “open movie editor” is not anywhere near v1.0, but some people think it works good. I think it’s got a bit of growing up to do to come close to Pinnacle Systems’ Studio series or Sony’s Vegas stuff.
Ubuntu is a really good choice, because their philosophy is long term stability — similar to the Red Hat Enterprise series. If you want the “bleeding edge” stuff, you would have gone to fedora over at fedora.redhat.com.
The biggest tip I can offer you is to be religious in updating your system to the latest packages. Another tip is to put a command line on your “panel” (that little bar across the top) via the following: go to applications:accessories and right-click the menu item “Terminal”; then put it on the panel by selecting “Add this launcher to panel” with a left-mouse click. Then you should see a new icon appear on your panel. Left click it to open a command line terminal. repeat to fill up your screen with “terminals”. Try the following commands:
echo “I am the Captain of ${HOSTNAME}”
printenv
ls -al
find / -name “*.tar” -print
find / -name “*.tar” -exec ls -al {} \;
man find
man ls
man ps
man df
man gimp
man chown
man chmod
And, when you are really brave, this command
top
[to get out of "top", do a ctrl-c]
Hopefully that’s enough to get back a bit of your old knowledge.
Lesson two is more religion — bash vs. tcsh vs. ksh et al. If you want more than bash under ubuntu, you have to install the shells yourself via the application:add/remove stuff (which translates to, in shell terms, /usr/bin/gnome-app-install).
Good luck on finally taking back control of your machine.
unclesmrgol on October 19, 2008 at 1:22 PM
Bring out the Gimp
raiderdav on October 19, 2008 at 1:28 PM
I have Photoshop CS running perfectly on Ubuntu 8.04 on my laptop using Wine – the GIMP didn’t quite cut it for me. As for video editing, the closest thing I’ve gotten is Cinelerra. I haven’t learned how to use it extensively or gotten the audio to work exactly right, but I don’t do enough video editing to bother fixing it. I’ve also heard that LiVES is pretty good, but haven’t really used it myself.
If it hasn’t been mentioned already, a good number of applications (including Wine, Cinelerra, and LiVES) are available for easy installation via Synaptic (System -> Administration -> Synaptic Package Manager). That will also have your computer check for updates automatically.
If there are any Windows programs you’re dying to use in Ubuntu, I’d check out the Wine app DB. A lot of the programs focused on are games, but I primarily use other applications like Dreamweaver 8, Dragon Naturally Speaking 9, FL Studio 7, etc.
I’ve had most of this running for a half year or so, consistently updating everything Synaptic throws at me. Some bumps along the way, but I’m very glad that I switched.
Andrew D on October 19, 2008 at 1:33 PM
Actually, under ubuntu, that would hurt, but not as bad as it might under some other distros. Ubuntu hides “root” under the “sudo” command, so it’s very hard to destroy the system.
With regard to african sounding stuff, the sounds ubuntu emits are far worse than the name. I always feel like I’ve just entered “lion king” land when I log onto my Ubuntu laptop.
Oh, Captain… to get rid of that ugly “heron” artwork, right-click anywhere near the center of the screen and left click “change desktop background”
Some other commands:
Another way of managing what’s installed in your system:
System:Administration:Synaptic Package Manager
Getting a “long term” root prompt:
sudo -i
unclesmrgol on October 19, 2008 at 1:46 PM
It’s great that you are trying Linux. Linux is all about giving the user choice, and sometimes Linux nerds like myself may scare people away simply by telling you could make other choices. Remember you don’t have to find the absolutely best program for you right away. You should get comfortable with Linux before exploring. And speaking of that, you don’t need to explore the use of the command line in Ubuntu, right away–unless you have some unusual special need. People learn to love the command line, because it is much easier and not because it is necessary.
My strong preference in Linux is for the KDE desktop and not the Gnome desktop. This means that I’d use Kubuntu and not Ubuntu. What I would suggest to you is that you switch to Kubuntu or another KDE based Linux in six months and try KDE for three or four months. See what you like!
About Linux RSS readers, here’s a link:
http://email.about.com/od/rssreaderslinux/Linux_RSS_Feed_Readers_Aggregators.htm.
Other people have mentioned Gimp for photo editing. Kino and Cinerella are both for video editing. Cinerella may be quite buggy yet. You’ll have see how it works on your machine. If it’s not good enough yet, check back in the future.
thuja on October 19, 2008 at 1:47 PM
Andrew D,
I’ve had trouble with Photoshop and wine (I have Photoshop 5 through CS2), so it would be interesting to know how you set it up.
unclesmrgol on October 19, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Unclesmrgol failed mention that sometimes “rm -rf *” is exactly the right command to issue. I use it a good bit and only destroyed my Operating System once, but Linux is easy to install. You should always double check your location before issuing that command.
thuja on October 19, 2008 at 2:05 PM
Wow, what a piss poor example, 15 PC’s? Were you working in a TCBY or something? If you were reinstalling a Windows OS every day then I would say you should have hired an outside consultant to find what the real problems were.
I have done consulting for large companies with thousands of workstations. All wintel boxes. Servers, wintel boxes. Only the marketing departments ran Macs because the art school kids only knew macs. The wintel boxes ran rock solid, and so did the macs. Bottom line however is that big boy companies run what works and could care less what some stupid fanboi community insists is reality.
I don’t have a problem with either one, and I am a huge supporter of linux. They all work well, and all have issues in some areas from time to time. You cannot go wrong with any selection depending on what your focus is.
ClassicCon on October 19, 2008 at 2:07 PM
I just followed the steps listed in the Wine DB. Note the part that states,
Basically, all the test results on that page show a platinum outcome, so I figured I’d give it a go. Some of the apps I have running under Wine took some fiddling to install or run, but CS worked right away and has given me zero problems, even after updating Wine. The results for CS2 aren’t quite as stellar, but gold is still very workable.
Andrew D on October 19, 2008 at 2:08 PM
You won’t regret it. I’ve had Ubuntu installed on one of my PCs all the way from 5.10 to its newest version. Works like a charm – the only bad thing about it is that more than one window open while I’m using Firefox slows the browser to the pace of a worm.
Oh, and I can’t play Dark Age of Camelot on it.
Other than that its great. I love the GNOME package manager, and Compiz Fusion = win. Beats Vista straight to heck in the display arena.
Ryan Gandy on October 19, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Linux Is God
Ubuntu? I know knothing
Kini on October 19, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Sure Macs are reliable machines, but you Mac guys sure like to sidestep the cost issue, which is prohibitive for some of us. I paid 3000 for my honda and 500 for my toshiba(new — plus $36 for an extra 2GB ram). That’s about right.
Mephistefales on October 19, 2008 at 2:34 PM
If you haven’t already, check out the Thinkpad Linux wiki at http://www.thinkiki.org for all kinds of useful tips.
Don’t worry about the command line. You don’t really need it, for the most part. The good news is, it’s not an either/or situation. Many things that can only be accomplished from a GUI in Windows can be accomplished from GUI or command line in Linux.
When you get ready to install applications on Ubuntu, use Ubuntu’s package manager whenever possible. Sure, you can try to do it like in Windows by searching for a download, downloading, running the install program, and following any special instructions. But Ubuntu has an extremely sophisticated package manager that can do all the hard work for you, and will absolutely save you tons of time over doing it yourself.
For graphics, try GIMP. It can do pretty much whatever Photoshop can, except for pre-publishing color separations.
If you decide you just don’t want to give up Photoshop, then don’t. You can run Photoshop on Linux using the Wine project. You can also buy Crossover Office, which is a commercial product based on Wine, that will allow you to run Office, Photoshop, and more with commercial support.
Any time you say you’ve installed Linux, you’ll get free advice to switch to another Linux distribution. Contrary to the advice, I’d recommend sticking with Ubuntu. It’s well maintained, constantly updated, and widely used. If you do have a problem, your chances of solving it are better with Ubuntu. More users means more people who may have encountered the problem before, and more people who can offer helpful advice. Besides, Ubuntu has some of the best forums around.
I’d also stick with the default Ubuntu desktop. The KDE environment is available if you want it, and doesn’t require reinstalling Ubuntu. But if you just want to get productive, then take what you’ve got, add the extra applications you need, and go on.
On the other hand, if you’re interested in exploring, Linux offers more opportunities than anything else. Besides different Linux distributions, most of which come as a Live CD so you can try them out before installing anything, there are lots of alternatives even within a single distribution. For every default choice, there are several alternatives. Ubuntu’s default desktop is Gnome, but KDE is extremely flexible and powerful, and almost as widely used. You can also try out Enlightenment, or GnuStep, or XFCE, or …
Personally, I’ve been running Linux for about 12 years now. Originally, it was installed onto an extra partition, and I would only boot into it once in a blue moon, play around a while, and get back out.
For about the past 7 years, I haven’t bothered to boot up Windows at home.
At work, I have a Windows PC, but have installed about six different Linux servers for special purposes. Each of them
has been upgraded as new versions came out, with never a reinstall.
theregoestheneighborhood on October 19, 2008 at 2:35 PM
my computers are far too important to trust to homemade operating systems…
if you don’t know what operating system to use… e-mail me and I’ll tell you. I can’t say it here for legal reasons.
but good luck with your experiment.
Kaptain Amerika on October 19, 2008 at 2:37 PM
I still love building custom computers. The bundle software that comes with Dell, Compaq, Hp and others. Can really cause a lot of problems and conflicts. Ubuntu is great OS. I have a dual boot. XP Pro and Ubuntu. I like Ubuntu better. I use to upgrade Macs. They are ok I guess. They kind of bored me. Guess they are to easy to work on. They hardly come in for fixing. But, I love PC’S the best. Open Office is fantastic. The Gimp rocks! And yes I love the Mahjong also. Vista is horrible. So many clients of mine beg me to take it off. This was a surprise to see this thread. I am a geek blond woman. This took my mind off of some concerning issues that face our Country. Thank you for that. And yes, Mac users do have this certain attitude about them. Only saying what I experienced when I worked at a computer shop in Santa Barbara. Very few Mac people were likable.
sheebe on October 19, 2008 at 2:37 PM
I used Red Hat from 1997 to 2004, just to give you my background, and only started using Linux again recently. (The stability of Windows XP made Linux far less alluring.) By the way, as with any OS, don’t take upgrading likely. At my last job, they told us to upgrade so we could use a slightly more convenient command line structure that might have saved us a minute per month. I lost a lot of work time over it (the automatic upgrade made a huge mess), which contributed to my losing the job (over questions of, “Why has everything taken you so long over the last week or two?”). So I suppose I should hate Ubuntu, but really I just hate my former bosses’ idiocy.
calbear on October 19, 2008 at 2:38 PM
I would like to see a breakdown of who people are voting for and which platform they use. I bet the Mac goons are in the tank for Obama.
Fire in the hole!!!
*slips away unnoticed*
Mephistefales on October 19, 2008 at 2:44 PM
Ed, Ubuntu is ok, but I would recommend PCLinuxOS over it. PCLOS is just as easy to install as Ubuntu and its better. If a program doesn’t come natively with PCLinuxOS by default, you can simply open up the ‘synaptic’ package manager and it will do all the work for you installing whatever you ask with all the dependencies included. The best program from Linux in general? Amarok. Amarok media player is the most powerful music app in the world. a Linux rig is worth having just for Amarok alone.
TonyR on October 19, 2008 at 2:50 PM
The tld for getdeb is a “.net”: http://www.getdeb.net/
I’ve found Ubuntu Tweak to be an excellent tool. I’ve been using 8.04.1 for some time, and have found it fairly stable – even on a laptop (more problematic for Linux).
And,did you notice? 11 days to Ubuntu 8.10… ;)
darkpixel on October 19, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Oh thats right… Ubuntu has Synaptic too lol
TonyR on October 19, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Really big corporations that run really big installations of Windows use really big tools to manage them. Specifically, they a) create install images that have been carefully tested to avoid software conflicts, b) use Active Directory policies to lock down the workstations and prevent as many problems as they can, c) use Tivoli, Zen, SMS, or some other software manager to distribute updates and patches as needed, d) restrict user permissions, especially disabling the installing of new software, e) spend some money on firewalls, antivirus, and anti-spware programs, and f) use disk imaging software to reinstall the OS quickly, rather than having to reinstall manually.
A 15-PC shop won’t have access to all that. If those PC’s are for use by customers, then it’s really hard to lock them down. Reinstalling on a daily basis would be a bit much, but I can well believe having to reinstall frequently.
Frankly, in that environment, I would go to all the trouble and aggravation of creating a software image with disk imaging software, and simply re-image on a regular basis. In fact, I might just start every day by restoring the known-good disk image to each PC. Great way to kill the spyware.
And the nice thing is, it works well with Linux as well. Of course, with Linux it wouldn’t really be necessary.
Regardless, Windows PC’s are more work to maintain than Mac or Linux. That’s just a fact of life. Granted, some people really exaggerate how much more work….
theregoestheneighborhood on October 19, 2008 at 2:56 PM
I have used nearly every major distro out there and I still can’t find one that works as well as OSX and Windows when it comes to multimedia. I can be very frustrating when your videos won’t play.
ronsfi on October 19, 2008 at 3:04 PM
I don’t use Ubuntu (I use OpenSuse). Here’s what I use:
Image Editing:
Gimp, Krita, Inkscape, F-Spot
Picasa is available for Linux (sort of). Runs under WINE.
http://picasa.google.com/linux/
Video Editing and DVD Creation:
LiVES, Kino, DVDStyler (and a bunch more)
RSS Reader:
Liferea
You can go here (http://linuxappfinder.com/) to find apps for just about anything you need/want to do.
raz0r on October 19, 2008 at 4:16 PM
All this Linux talk (and advice) makes me want to give it another shot!
Ordinary1 on October 19, 2008 at 4:34 PM
calbear on October 19, 2008 at 1:19 PM
Use ndiswrapper to get the wireless working. What are you trying to watch that doesn’t work?
raz0r on October 19, 2008 at 4:34 PM
I’ve been using Ubuntu as my primary home OS for a few years now. I will do what I can to answer your questions.
News Reader I use is Google Reader. It works in every OS and most every browser and it goes where you go.
For photo editing, I use Gimp. It is a photoshop clone but easier to use IMO. It will take a little bit of getting used to but you will figure it out. The command to install it from the command line: sudo apt-get install gimp
As for video editing, you could give Kino a try. I do not do much of it on Ubuntu. I have a nice program for my Windows machine that I use for the little video editing that I do. The command: sudo apt-get install kino
Some sites to add to your RSS reader and to make a regular read if you need to find out how to do something:
http://www.ubuntugeek.com/
http://tombuntu.com
http://ubuntu-tutorials.com
http://www.ubuntu-unleashed.com
http://www.ubuntukungfu.org
http://www.debuntu.org
Installing Ultamatix can be a big help with a bunch of stuff such as installing windows fonts and the like.
http://ultamatix.com/ The .deb file will install from the GUI when you double click it.
You can always of course avoid using something like Ultamatix and follow this guide which will get you just about everything that you will want.
http://www.howtoforge.net/the-perfect-desktop-ubuntu-8.04-lts-hardy-heron
I would also add that site to your RSS or as a bookmark. There is a tutorial somewhere about adding Google’s Picasa to Ubuntu as well which you may want to do.
If you want to do regular backups of your Ubuntu system to an external hard drive or FTP or something, you will want to install sbackup. To install from command line: sudo apt-get install sbackup
I will also say that unless you plan to really use the Evolution package that is built into Ubuntu, I would recommend you remove it. Go to the synaptic package manager (System => Administration => Synaptic Package Manger). Do a search for Evolution and remove it piece by piece. PAY ATTENTION to what is being removed additionally. One or two of the parts of Evolution you have to keep installed because they are integrated into Gnome (Your desktop GUI Environment) and removing those pieces will also remove Gnome. Just pay attention to what is going to be removed along with Gnome and when those pop up, do not remove them.
I cannot think of anything else at the moment. Give me a yell on IM though if you need some help with it. Great OS. My favorite actually with Mac at a close second and Windows last.
My aim: zerodamag
zerodamage on October 19, 2008 at 4:49 PM
Like me :-) OK. I’m not a typical Mac dude. It’s just my laptop, which I do love, but I do have the dual boot Windows XP/Ubuntu Linux.
When I was considering buying my MacBook Pro, a co-worker was telling me I should go PC. He said that the folks at the Mac Store were probably a bunch of college kids who supported Obama. I mentioned what my friend said to the college kid at the Mac store and he just looked at me. It was really funny in an awkward sort of way! I work with a bunch of conservative Christians. Sometimes I forget not everyone is like that :-)
Ordinary1 on October 19, 2008 at 4:52 PM
My comment isn’t showing up. That makes me ill considering how much I put into it.
zerodamage on October 19, 2008 at 5:01 PM
It may be the number of URL’s I put in it. Probably sitting in the wordpress approval box. Please approve it! Thanks.
zerodamage on October 19, 2008 at 5:02 PM
I taught in a large school system. They used a program called ICE on every student accessed computer. I boots the computer from a image of the OS. The students can make changes to the running OS, even install programs, but once the system is turned off, everything is gone. There are of course server limitations on what they can do, or access while logged in.
Franklyn on October 19, 2008 at 5:34 PM
Ordinary1 on October 19, 2008 at 4:52 PM
I am real sorry. I do have many friends that have Macs. They are mind like myself and a lot of you on here. It is just that most Mac users that would come in our shop. Were flaming Liberal’s. I should have stated that better. And you are right, most so called Christians are not what one is. (0_0)
sheebe on October 19, 2008 at 5:36 PM
oh shut the hell up, retard.
Diogenes of Sinope on October 19, 2008 at 5:45 PM
(pssst yes that was satire)
Diogenes of Sinope on October 19, 2008 at 5:46 PM
Comment pages: 1 2 Next »