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Hope and change: Obama 44, McCain 42, says new AP poll

posted at 2:25 pm on October 17, 2008 by Allahpundit
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How biased is the AP’s spin of the data? So biased that the bombshell topline result, which drew banner treatment on Drudge a few hours ago as a rebuke to the CW about an impending Obama landslide, isn’t even mentioned in the story. To find out that it’s 44/42, you have to download the PDF and pore through the crosstabs. For ease of reference:

The “waves” reflect the fact that the poll was conducted over 10 days, from October 3 to October 13. Here’s the sample over time, showing a huge 13-point lean towards the Dems in wave eight. Michael Barone thinks the actual spread among voters is probably eight or nine points, which means McCain might in fact be doing even better than the new data indicates:

Wave seven, which would have been sampled around a week ago, has a 12-point Democratic spread and a two-point lead for McCain, at a moment when virtually every other poll in the country was showing Obama up by five or six points. Make of it what you will.

Rasmussen and Gallup? Still four points and two points among likelies, respectively, although Gallup’s “expanded” model puts it at six. Exit question: Is Geraghty right? (Exit answer: Probably not.)


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Comment pages: 1 2

What, no doom and gloom? I’ve lost faith in you, Allah.

It's Vintage, Duh on October 17, 2008 at 3:04 PM

The interior numbers show big trouble, it’s why Obarky is spending so much time in his supposedly safe states.

I’d like to believe this but Rove’s column in the WSJ yesterday says that McCain is spending the rest of his time in states that GWB carried in 2004, including North Carolina, where McCain and Palin have been several times the last two weeks. Electorally, he’s playing on our half of the field and Iowa and New Mexico are already gone so it only takes one more flip to doom us.

Dudley Smith on October 17, 2008 at 3:04 PM

Try decades. If you thought BDS was bad, just wait and see how apeshit the libs go if McCain/Palin defeat Hopenchange.

PBoilermaker on October 17, 2008 at 2:37 PM

Well, I’m more concerned about what becomes of the mental hygiene on our side if, as seems likely, Hopenchange beats McCain/Palin.

All of these polls still show McCain down. Two points, 4 points, 6 points — what does it matter? As we saw in 2000, if you’re down by so much as 537 votes out of a hundred million cast, you lose!

(By the way, I assume these polls don’t survey the dead, who will be voting in record numbers this year. So let go, friends. You’re just setting yourselves up for a lot of hurt. And I don’t know why Allah is suddenly acting like Sharon Stone and giving you a glimpse of something he knows you can’t have.)

paul006 on October 17, 2008 at 3:07 PM

One word: Weighting.Vashta.Nerada on October 17, 2008 at 3:02 PM

Weighting’s not a bad argument, and I’ll admit that I haven’t really dug into the criticisms that’ve been floating around. But my impression is that those criticisms are based on likely voter models being broken – that in the past dynamic weighting has underestimated Republican turnout. Fair enough. But all of the evidence from the primaries – to say nothing of that new Pew data on cell phone voters – means that they’re closer to being right than they’ve been in the past. Much, much closer.

So in the best case: dynamic weighting underestimates GOP voters, random telephone polling and broken likely models underestimate Dem voters — and Obama’s still polling outside the margin.

omriceren on October 17, 2008 at 3:08 PM

That same speech was on television a while ago, Obama started talking (again) about “pie” (after he’d been filmed taking a big drink of water after announcing he’d just eaten “almonds”)…I got the impression he was stoned (seriously).

S on October 17, 2008 at 2:58 PM

Dude. He’s got some serious pie munchies. He told that same story in Philly on Oct. 11. Count the pies! He is acting really weird in this video.

Brat on October 17, 2008 at 3:10 PM

I read about this on Drudge. They surveyed 150 or so more liberals than conservatives. So naturally the poll is borked.

dogsoldier on October 17, 2008 at 3:10 PM

Well, I’m more concerned about what becomes of the mental hygiene on our side if, as seems likely, Hopenchange beats McCain/Palin.

You’d be surprised, I think. Moonbats aren’t crazy just because they lose; they’re crazy because their entire worldview is poisonous. We’re not going to become like they’ve been if we lose.

But I’m simply not going to entertain the possibility of losing before I’ve done absolutely everything I can to win. We’re not there yet.

Kensington on October 17, 2008 at 3:10 PM

So in the best case: dynamic weighting underestimates GOP voters, random telephone polling and broken likely models underestimate Dem voters — and Obama’s still polling outside the margin.

omriceren on October 17, 2008 at 3:08 PM

More than 3 million people changed registration to vote in the dem primary. They will not vote for Obama in November, yet this has bumped up the weighting beyond that seen in any previous national election in my adult life.

Vashta.Nerada on October 17, 2008 at 3:11 PM

They’re currently beating us in early voting and we usually won that…

ninjapirate on October 17, 2008 at 2:43 PM

Link please!!

Calm Before the Storm on October 17, 2008 at 3:13 PM

More than 3 million people changed registration to vote in the dem primary. They will not vote for Obama in November, yet this has bumped up the weighting beyond that seen in any previous national election in my adult life. – Vashta.Nerada on October 17, 2008 at 3:11 PM

Which will make the McCain victory all the more delicious.

ManlyRash on October 17, 2008 at 3:13 PM

the exact numbers 873 dems 650 conservative. 223 more libs, yet there is only a TWO POINT DELTA?

They have to completely hose the poll to spin Hussein the lead.

Capt. Amnesty is actually way ahead. I’ve been saying it for months.

dogsoldier on October 17, 2008 at 3:14 PM

More than 3 million people changed registration to vote in the dem primary. They will not vote for Obama in November, yet this has bumped up the weighting beyond that seen in any previous national election in my adult life. – Vashta.Nerada on October 17, 2008 at 3:11 PM

Crash and burn! LONG LIVE OPERATION CHAOS!!

*eats*

Grue in the Attic on October 17, 2008 at 3:15 PM

Maybe Mac has a chance after all.

Cr4sh Dummy on October 17, 2008 at 3:21 PM

Which is not to say that McCain can’t come back (although, honestly, I kind of don’t think that McCain can come back). But there are two leftist indulgences that we should resist:

(1) The across-the-board “no one knows anything” anti-intellectualism that is better suited for coffee shop hippies than it is for someone genuinely interested in politics.

(2) The “there’s a vast conspiracy arrayed against us that reaches all the way down to individual pollsters – and we can discover it by tracing to whom Rasmussen’s cousin’s best friend is married” conspiracism that the DU is so fond of.

omriceren on October 17, 2008 at 2:59 PM

I get your points but you are forgetting that the PUMAs are giving pollsters false information and you are also underestimating how unwilling people are to seem racist (or un-hip) by saying they are voting for McCain. Because of the tremendous raging viciousness of Obama’s supporters, polls are much less reliable this year than even 4 years ago. No one thought Kerry was the Second Coming.

It is not “anti-intellectual” to know that it is not helpful to the rank-and-file voters or campaign volunteers to closely track polls (leave that to the campaign professionals); nor is it kidding oneself to acknowledge that there is a tremendous pro-Obama bias in the media, as well as across many sectors of the “intelligentsia,” academia, and “professional” groups.

(Face it, our country is bleeding money on a questionable bailout, but Obama is still salting his speeches with talk of “investing” in education. As a former science professor, I know what that means and I know the audience to whom it is directed. The last time I checked, pollsters (statisticians, social scientists) sprang from the same NSF-funded academic teat as the liberal faculty and students who form Obama’s core group. I would be shocked to find a poll indicating that they are any less politically liberal than university academicians.)

There is a convergence of disparate groups in our country — from loyal Hillary supporters who were kept from fully participating their own convention to middle-class mind-your-own-business-and-I’ll-mind-mine voters who aspire to the same success that Joe the Plumber seeks — that will produce the votes McCain & Palin need to defeat Obama (& that other guy – ha ha).

Don’t let your pessimism convince you that these peoples’ gut reactions against Obama are something they are not. You don’t have to be anti-intellectual to recognize that Obama is pandering to voters now so that he can convert this country to European socialism later. And you don’t have to be a “truther” to distrust the pollsters and the media who reports on the polls.

You should go to Hillbuzz and read the Eeyore post at the top of the page, particularly the comments. One poster there described her experiences with polls from the 1980 Reagan campaign.

Y-not on October 17, 2008 at 3:24 PM

Rush used a football analogy today, Obama’s got the lead and gone to the prevent defense, willing to give up and even a score to prevent making a mistake and in the hopes that McCain’s drive will kill the clock and therefore allow Obama to regain possesion after the score and take a knee.

Sounded about right a week ago but not today, because I think Obama, with the Joe The Plumber incident may have just bumbled his way into a “Meadowlands Miracle”.

For those of you who don’t know, back in 1980 or so (can’t remember exactly) the Giants hosted the Eagles and were on the verge of victory. No, scratch that. The Giants had the game in the bag in every way: Four or five point lead (field goal couldn’t save the Eagles), about five seconds left on the clock, and, and this is the most important factor and the part that ties this analogy up so nicely, possesion of the ball.

Normaly, under such circumstances, a team in the Giants position would snap the ball to re-start the clock (Eagles have no more time outs, can’t stop it now…) and the quarterback would “take a knee”, thus allowing the clock to run out.

Problem for the Giants wasn’t the snapping the ball part, it was the “taking the knee” part. Instead of taking the knee, the Giants QB attempted a hand off, a hand off he didn’t have any logical (or sane) reason to try.

Can you guess what happened?

Yep, that’s right, the Giants QB, in his zeal to get in that hand off (that, again, he had absolutely NO REASON WHATSOEVER to make) stumbled on the turf and fumbled the ball. Backwards. Past the only man on Earth that could avoid total catastrophe, the lone running back lined up behind him, who had run past him to take the hand off and never got a hand on it and was runover by the on rushing Eagles defense. The QB was also runover by the Eagles defense and an Eagles lineman or linebacker (again, long time ago, can’t remember exactly) scooped up the ball and ran it all the way back for 6 big points and the win.

Joe The Plumber is Obama’s ill concieved attempt to literally run out the clock when he could’ve taken a knee and let it run down on it’s own.

Now, the game’s not over yet, the election’s inside the two minute warning, still time on the clock, and McCain may not have taken the lead (yet) but now Johnny’s in a position to win it if he can recover the onside kick and nail a field goal and that happens more often than you think.

My preference of course would be for it to all come down to some sort of crazy “Stanford Band Game” finish, with team McCain firing off six latterals with no time left on the clock and Palin plowing over an ACORN trombone player in the endzone for the winning score, but at this point, I’d take “The Holy Roller” if we can get it.

SuperCool on October 17, 2008 at 3:25 PM

Senator McCain could very well win this election, all noise to the contrary aside. This race is much closer than many people realize and to see that one only needs to watch the Obama campaign and how it reacts. They’re not acting like this is in the bag.

Oh and one more thing:

American’s love a winner. But American’s also love an underdog. I think McCain’s bit at the dinner was an excellent move playing the underdog role. It may just win him the White House.

Browncoatone on October 17, 2008 at 3:29 PM

SuperCool on October 17, 2008 at 3:25 PM

I’ve commented several times over the past few months that it a Tortoise vs. Hare race.

Brat on October 17, 2008 at 3:30 PM

ManlyRash on October 17, 2008 at 3:00 PM

It is acceptable to me. Of course I will claim this as my own work, you understand?

Bishop on October 17, 2008 at 3:31 PM

That data makes me feel a lot better. Not only is McCain within 2 points, he’s that close when there’s a party identification that favors dems by 7 points. Also, the movement over the waves shows that the party identification for dems eroded by 5 points while it increased by 1 for republicans and three for independents.

I’m convinced that the difference in party identification will be at most 5 points based on that fact that it hasn’t moved much between 2000, 2004 and 2006. I’m giving the dems 1 percentage point for fraudulent votes.

This is, of course, assuming McCain doesn’t get burned with an October surprise, make a grevious mis-statement or do something really dumb like suspending his campaign again.

Sensible Mom on October 17, 2008 at 3:33 PM

Here’s an idea for a poll: immigrants other than Hispanics.

We never see polls like these because immigrants from repressive countries vote Republican. My Filipino neighbor–from the island largely taken over by AQ–said that as soon as she heard Obama say he would meet Iran without preconditions, she went for McCain. “You can’t talk to these people.” Eastern Europeans, Asians, Vietnamese–they know what radicals can do and will vote for the tough guy.

Don’t forget Cubans buddy, they are hispanic and know what the beast looks like too.

Crashpanic on October 17, 2008 at 3:52 PM

Seems like the Dems are over-represented in this poll:

49% dem
36% rep
14% other

and all they can muster is a two-point lead??!!?

jdpaz on October 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM

I shoulda “refreshed” eh, dogsoldier?

jdpaz on October 17, 2008 at 3:54 PM

Those party-ID numbers are telling:

Dem – Rep percentage: 7, 9, 8, 7, 11, 12, 12, 13.

What happened between Waves 4 and 5 so that they suddenly increased the Dem percentage by 4 – 5 points? Were they not getting enough Obama advantage, so they had to spike the sample with more Democrats?

Rasmussen has been weighting their polls with a 39 D – 33 R assumed partisan split. Assuming that is correct, if AP/Yahoo has been undersampling Republicans by about 5-6%, if we assume that all the extra Republicans vote McCain, then assume half the Independent voters taken out of the sample would also vote McCain, McCain would pick up a net 2.5%, meaning that McCain is actually LEADING by a small margin.

Over at http://www.hedgehogreport.com, they’ve got bloggers who pick apart the internals of most of the major polls, and re-apply them to the partisan split of the 2006 electorate (when Democrats won both houses of Congress). The results are striking: the national polls come out about even, and McCain is leading all state polls in FL, OH, VA, and NC, with MO, NH, and PA as tossups.

The national pollsters are deliberately skewing their samples to inflate the Obama numbers and discourage Republicans. But if we can get out the vote at least as well as 2006, this is winnable for McCain/Palin.

Steve Z on October 17, 2008 at 3:55 PM

It is unfair to criticize the media for not highlighting this number, and in fact is unfair for Drudge and HotAir to be highlighting it: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/bad-spin-watch-drudge-touts-weeks-old.html.

The reason the “bombshell” result isn’t in the article is that the AP doesn’t use this poll to determine its horse race numbers because it’s not reliable for that purpose. Didn’t you guys notice that you’d never heard of this poll before this was posted on Drudge? Didn’t that make you think that there was a reason that it disagreed with all the other polls out there?

tneloms on October 17, 2008 at 3:57 PM

What, no doom and gloom? I’ve lost faith in you, Allah.

It’s Vintage, Duh on October 17, 2008 at 3:04 PM

You missed the last paragraph. Plenty of AP’s patented D&G to be had there.

Kensington on October 17, 2008 at 4:04 PM

Exit answer: Probably not.

ALLAHPUNDIT PREDICTS OBAMA WINS THE ELECTION!

This will be my new headline for every AP thread from here on out.

Thanks bunches for the information and polls Allah. We appreciate it.

Sultry Beauty on October 17, 2008 at 4:06 PM

The national pollsters are deliberately skewing their samples to inflate the Obama numbers and discourage Republicans. But if we can get out the vote at least as well as 2006, this is winnable for McCain/Palin.

Steve Z on October 17, 2008 at 3:55 PM

Let me just add that 2006 was a bad republican turnout year, so the numbers could be even better now.

Vashta.Nerada on October 17, 2008 at 4:10 PM

tneloms on October 17, 2008 at 3:57 PM

Although one might question the amount of time taken to conduct the poll, Nate is otherwise talking through his hat.

This is not the typical online poll. It is a blend that selects a sample the traditional way, but questions via computer.

And contrary to Nate, AP-Yahoo! has used this poll to do horserace analysis, though the AP also uses Gfk.

Karl on October 17, 2008 at 4:50 PM

Also, re Allah’s final link. It’s always better to look at the RCP average than any single poll, but that’s not to say that you can’t look at those included in the RCP avg and find that some are scientifically better than others.

Ideally, you want a large (over 1000) sample of likely voters within a relatively short period of time (that’s why the most valid knock on this AP poll is the 10-day period).

That’s why I’m not too keen on either the Hotline or Battleground polls (even though one of them has the good sense to avoid weekend polling). The daily samples are so small that you get a lot of volatility.

As for Gallup’s “expanded” LV model, ask yourself how realistic it is that turnout will increase 8%. RCP uses both Gallup LV numbers and splits the difference, which is more realistic.

So if you look at the big trackers — Rasmussen, Zogby (eek) and Gallup — you end up with about a 4 to 4.5% lead for BO — and dropping. You can see it even in the overall RCP average now, but most of the major trackers individually show Maverick gaining over the past week or so.

Karl on October 17, 2008 at 4:59 PM

It is acceptable to me. Of course I will claim this as my own work, you understand? – Bishop on October 17, 2008 at 3:31 PM

I would have it no other way, Your Grace.

ManlyRash on October 17, 2008 at 5:54 PM

Again, the Gallup “expanded” model is really the “insane” model. It assumes higher turnout than ANY TIME IN A HUNDRED YEARS. You know, back before women got the vote, people had cars, or any of that stuff.

someone on October 17, 2008 at 6:10 PM

It aint over till its over…and it aint over.

I do not think Obama is gonna win Pa or Ohio. I love it! :)

becki51758 on October 17, 2008 at 6:10 PM

Seems like the Dems are over-represented in this poll:

49% dem
36% rep
14% other

and all they can muster is a two-point lead??!!?

jdpaz on October 17, 2008 at 3:53 PM

And the AP/Yahoo poll… 46-Obama, 44-McCain that sampled 57% Dem and 43% Rep. Like the article crying “conspiracy theory” on the intrade buys of McCain. When you look at polls like these and you see McCain trading at less than 25, how can you not make a buy… Yet there was no mention of “conspiracy” when the article came out about the Irish bookie deciding to go ahead and pay off Obama bets. Yeah, right…. I’m sure that is legit. This entire election is beginning to smell so bad I need a gas mask.

CC – BHO: “my Muslim faith”

CapedConservative on October 17, 2008 at 7:41 PM

screw polls

El_Terrible on October 17, 2008 at 7:51 PM

I have never seen such polls. But then again, I don’t think I have ever watched them this closely either.

Terrye on October 17, 2008 at 9:06 PM

Something Ace posted about how Kerry was leading in the 2004 election at this same time, now put’s all of the pieces in perspective…This is why ACORN is so active…they aren’t trying to engineer a massive fraudulent voter landslide…they think this is going to be another 2000 or 2004, ‘couple hundred votes here..couple hundred votes there’ in key EC states…the bogus registrations will only be useful in the scenario they see happening…it’s an insurance policy on a ‘hanging chad’ election to make sure Obama squeaks thru, no matter what.

Plus, as in 2004, the polls are a bit flaky..of course, in that election, we realized that several of the polls where actively skewing toward Kerry…if that is true this time…and ‘The One’ and his team know it…then ACORNs work in ‘electioneering’ will pay off big.

AUINSC on October 19, 2008 at 11:51 AM

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