Self-determination dead in New Jersey?
posted at 8:20 am on October 14, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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In a season of crazy polls, one in New Jersey stands out for its revelation of obtuseness. The Monmouth University/Gannett New Jersey poll shows that almost a majority of adults want to leave the Garden State, thanks to the high cost of living and government. Apparently the 49% who object to these costs don’t realize that they can vote for a more responsive — and less costly — state government:
Even New Jerseyans can’t stand living in New Jersey, according to a new poll that said nearly half of adults residing in the Garden State want to pull up stakes.
The Monmouth University/Gannett New Jersey Poll, released Wednesday, found 49 percent of those polled would rather live somewhere else.
New Jersey already is suffering from an image problem and bears the brunt of jokes because of its corruption and pollution problems. But 58 percent of those residents polled said the heavy financial burden of just living in the state is no laughing matter, and that’s why they want to leave.
Poll participants cited high property taxes (28 percent), the cost of living (19 percent), state taxes (5 percent) and housing costs (6 percent) as the main reasons they want out. The poll also found that 51 percent of those who expressed a desire to leave planned to do so, with adults under the age of 50 making between $50,000 and $100,000 the most likely to flee.
“If you have the ability to leave and you don’t see any possibility for change with the way the state is run — and that’s the No. 1 issue here — you have to vote with your feet,” said Patrick Murray, director of the Monmouth University Polling Institute.
That’s simply not true. In places like the old Soviet Union, Zimbabwe, and the DPRK, people have to vote with their feet because they don’t have a meaningful vote otherwise. In America, people can vote with their ballots.
If New Jersey government has gotten so out of control that a majority of adults no longer want to live there, the less costly alternative would be to vote out the current government and try a new direction. Organize for different candidates. Try a couple of recall petitions to get the attention of the political class. Start pushing back on tax hikes and bond issues.
I’m actually sympathetic to the impulse. I left California for a better job opportunity eleven years ago and managed to avoid the debacle of the current budget deficit, which is three times greater than Minnesota’s entire annual state budget. However, I also know people who leave here for less-costly states, and at least some of them are the people who sported “Happy to Pay for a Better Minnesota” bumper stickers on their cars. If people want less-costly living, then they need to recognize that government isn’t a charity organization and push for smaller, less costly government instead of demanding government solutions to every problem and then getting itchy feet when the costs hit home. Pretty soon, there won’t be any place to run.
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Liberals/Democrats ruining the USA one state at a time.
mrsmwp on October 14, 2008 at 10:37 AM
I vote for fiscal conservativism as best I can every year. It’s bailing a sinking ship. Can’t sell my house, can’t leave for other reasons. NJ is a very beautiful state… …if you get beyond the parts that abut the city… …But would I leave if I could? Yeah, I think so. Am I stupid? No.
I think the problem is that if you let government get big enough, the vote of those working for the government, plus that of those whose lives depend upon it, outnumber those who work in the true private sector. And so the question becomes not ‘How do we build a land of opportunity?’, but ‘What is the most we can extract from our businesses without driving them all from the town/county/state?’
And when the government gets to that point of ursury, you are already well past the point where most would consider building a new business in your state.
ANV on October 14, 2008 at 10:38 AM
That sequence eventually converges to all blue and everyone broke.
Annar on October 14, 2008 at 10:39 AM
Yep and in my state they prohibit the lighting of candles without a carbon sequesteration device.
ronsfi on October 14, 2008 at 10:40 AM
The looming job loss and significant decrease in real estate values will force municipalities to rethink what they do. They’ll need to adapt or die.
Excellent point. One option under consideration is having smaller municipalities merge their services – by consolidating their police and fire departments, for instance. This would save a lot of money.
One reason NJ property taxes are so high is that there is a great deal of wasteful duplication of services at the local level. Small towns may have to band together and pool their resources in order to cut costs.
sauropod on October 14, 2008 at 10:40 AM
As a New Yorker, I can sympathize with my NJ neighbors, but in the end, we’re the morons who live in states that refuse to change, and that continue to embrace corrupt politicians (from both sides of the aisle). We only have ourselves to blame.
Come census time, any guesses to how much population NJ and NY are going to have lost? At least these states will lose electors, and power nationwide come the next presidential election.
Pope Linus on October 14, 2008 at 10:45 AM
I left NY because of high taxes…
Then Candidate Spitzer’s (couple of months before gubernatorial elections) speech at my graduate school graduation was essentially a plea to stay in NY. He seemed to recognize NY was losing population.
superpsy on October 14, 2008 at 10:45 AM
That’s one of the reasons why I plan on skipping my graduate school graduation this December. I don’t want to hear Patterson, or Clinon, or Schumer, or Silver (or take your pick) tell me how great NYS is, and how we have a great future ahead of us. Nothing’s going to change–well, except for the State Senate, which could switch Democrat in November.
Pope Linus on October 14, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Come census time, any guesses to how much population NJ and NY are going to have lost?
If there’s been a net loss in NJ, you sure can’t tell from the traffic. My guess is that immigrants from other countries are making up the difference.
sauropod on October 14, 2008 at 10:50 AM
I live in NJ. It’s sad the we keep on electing the same corrupt idiots into office.
keepinitreal on October 14, 2008 at 10:52 AM
Ha! Good point. I’m trying to remember the source, but I saw a list of the five states that have lost population in the last year (or was it last two years?). I’m pretty sure NY and NJ were on there, as were (I think) MI and OH. Can anyone verify that? I’ll try to keep looking.
Pope Linus on October 14, 2008 at 10:53 AM
As a former NJ inhabitant, moving out was a simple idea. I left for college, it cost less to go out of state (Clemson U) than stay instate (Rutgers) by a large margin. After that, I discovered that I don’t have to pay $7000/yr in property taxes (I pay less than $2000/yr in NC, and they are among the highest in the Southeast).
Admittedly, more and more of my former neighbors are moving here and pushing for dems in office, and the inevitable increase in taxes has begun. I’m still pushing for fiscal conservatives, but it seems there are too many dems and rinos.
c.u.shoeless on October 14, 2008 at 10:55 AM
The Tax Foundation’s 2009 State Business Tax Climate Index (Sixth Edition has New Jersey ranked No. 50.
The remaining bottom five:
49. New York
48. California
47. Ohio
46. Rhode Island
Xiphos on October 14, 2008 at 10:56 AM
That is likely true. But the question still remains whether the “well-educated” populations in the NE will see the cliff they’re headed for in time to do something about it. If I had to guess, I don’t think they will. (I guess we’re just talking about a microcosm of the national scene, and whether or not enough people will be able to see where Obama wants to lead us as fatal.)
JiangxiDad on October 14, 2008 at 10:58 AM
That’s a great theory but the reality is far more difficult.
Michigan has a lousy government intent on keeping the economy reliant on the manufacturing. Far too many of the politicians of both parties party on like it is 1959 instead of attempting to bring new vibrancy to a state that should be attracting businesses with its skilled workforce, good schools, and quality of life. Unfortunately, the Democrat Party and unions (not a whole lot of difference between the two) stand to lose if the old economy is replaced. Individuals can organize all they want but the system is still stacked against them- at least until the sheeple who belong to unions tell their leadership to pack sand.
highhopes on October 14, 2008 at 10:59 AM
This is EXACTLY why I keep saying smaller government is better government.
Other benefits include lesser influence from lobbyists, less potential for corruption, more private sector capital for investment and economic prosperity, greater potential for entrepreneurism, and lower potential for government interference in the private marketplace such as we are seeing with the financial sector.
Wildcatter1980 on October 14, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Yes. I recall reading where NJ has the most municipalities per capita in the country. Some small towns pay for a school board but have no school. Bureaucracies are hard to kill, but significant economic hardship will probably force some merger of services between towns to reduce administrative duplication.
dedalus on October 14, 2008 at 11:05 AM
This poll shows both that one of the basic theories of why the US is a Republic works, and also why it does not…
One of the ideas that the Republic is based on is that each State Government is essentialy an experiment in ruling. States were given a tremendous amount of power, and freedom to self rule, with the idea being that successfull states would flourish, bad Gov would fail, and the people WOULD vote with their feet. This poll shows that idea has merit.
Problem is that most people are not self aware enough to change. They continue to make the same type of mistakes once they move to a new area…
Under Einstein’s saying of “One definition of insanity is dong the same thing over and over, expecting a different result”… most American voters would be considered insane.
Colorado is a prim example. LOTS of Californians have moved to Denver and Boulder, and we now have a Leftist Governor, and a far left Enviro State Senator… and they don’t want us to drill… at all.
Romeo13 on October 14, 2008 at 11:06 AM
I am a refugee from New York who actually served a term on the county legislature to try to change things. How naive! Despite hearing from older friends and neighbors how disappointed they were that they educated their kids in NY only to see them leave (e.g., former next door neighbor’s two kids are in Kentucky and North Carolina), I couldn’t get through to enough people that there were reasons for that, foremost among them the ridiculous level of taxation and the corruption in Albany. But take a stand against the freebies Albany dangles to counties and you, sir, don’t stand up for (seniors/kids/education/apple pie).
But what bugs the living crap out of me is this: so many of these economic refugees go elsewhere, and THEN VOTE FOR THE SAME POLICIES THAT CAUSED THEM TO FLEE! Logic isn’t high on the list of positive attributes of these folks. Can anyone explain this to me – really, I want to understand.
I just hope they don’t destroy NC, TN, KY and the other places they have fled to with the policies that ruined the places they fled from.
PabloD on October 14, 2008 at 11:08 AM
I left NJ in 2002, after living there 23 years, and wound up here in NC. My property taxes are 1/5 of what they were, on a bigger house. NJ tried to get rid of a corrupt senator (Toricelli), but still got stuck (Lautenberg). They keep voting for the same crooks and idiots; let them rot for all I care.
bookman on October 14, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Poll participants cited high property taxes (28 percent), the cost of living (19 percent)
There are aspects to the cost of living that are not readily controllable, but property taxes do affect the cost of living.
But it’s easy to say cut property taxes. It is much more difficult to actually do so, because that means there will be spending reductions. So who’s sacred cow will be gored? best of luck cutting back on education, not many people will go for that.
So what’s left? police? fire? EMS? snow clearing? the fringe budget items will all have their very vocal supporters, and if they act in concert, they’ll seem to be larger than they are.
So, yeah, I can see how people think that the easiest way out is to cut their losses and get the heck out of Dodge. It is actually less work.
I R A Darth Aggie on October 14, 2008 at 11:13 AM
Off topic: Poppy Harlow is breathtaking today. Dang.
Jaibones on October 14, 2008 at 11:14 AM
This is NYS’s problem right now. Even the Dems running for office are campaigning on cutting property taxes, and our liberal governor says he wants to too. Of course, the two biggest expenditures in the state are education and medicaid. Yet with a teachers’ union run like Hoffa’s Teamsters, and with the proliferation of people on medicaid, fat chance either will be scaled back. And without that, there’s really no good way of fixing the property tax problem.
Pope Linus on October 14, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Sauropod nails a point in this:
BINGO. There’s not enough infrastructure to carry all the traffic anymore- not even close. It’s like 150 cars trying to jam into a drive-in that only parks 50.
It’s that noticeable, but they’re (they being: NJ “political leadership”) not doing anything to counter or balance the weight of it.
Just a rough guess: Fifteen years. MAYBE twenty, before we see a national bailout of the state of New Jersey, paid for by everyone else.
You watch.
ChipDWood on October 14, 2008 at 11:19 AM
Excellent analysis, Ed.
The Dean on October 14, 2008 at 11:21 AM
In the US we can vote with ballots, only if there is no or very little voter fraud. I am not so sure that standard can be met anymore. The voting standards in the US are so low that it is ripe for wide spread fraud.
Dasher on October 14, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Candidates have to run. How many elections have the incumbent unopposed? In elections with opponents, how many are competitive?
h0mi on October 14, 2008 at 11:31 AM
And education is where 90% of it goes. We’re told constantly that the MAGNET schools in Montclair are “excellent” and they freakin better be.
Dash on October 14, 2008 at 11:33 AM
That is complete baloney. I lived in NJ and was a staffer for the Republican senate majority office, when they were in the majority while Whitman was governor. I can tell you that every single one of them were RINOS. The Republicans passed a gun control law. The Republicans spent like crazy. The Republicans increased welfare payments. The Republicans grew the government, imposed new mandates, and failed to deregulate. The Republicans imposed draconian eco-standards on all cars. The Republicans borrowed money heavily, increasing the state debt. The Republicans did all of that. The only thing they did that was positive was cut the income taxes after Whitman was elected. But that was it.
All Republicans in NJ are RINOs. There isn’t a conservative politician left, not after Brent Schundler.
Bingo. You nailed it. The problem is, in NJ, there’s no one left to vote for. You can only vote against the worst, and both are pretty bad. It’s better to leave.
Sydney Carton on October 14, 2008 at 11:36 AM
Vote? Yeah, right.
Between the left getting the dead and imaginary to vote, millions of government workers slurping at the trough, media completely in the tank for idiot lefty plans, and much of the electorate essentially living like parasites off the productive just how much result will there be from attempting to elect a less avaricious government?
So the productive ones decide to leave. Let the government drones, welfare parasites, and the ones rich enough to protect themselves from a confiscatory system remain. The rest will go where their productivity is appreciated. Or at least not confiscated.
At some point there will be no place left to run, unfortunately. Hell, at some point when the civil service unions realize that they need more cattle to pay for their outrageous benefit (and pension) plans, moving a business out of a state like NJ might become illegal.
iconoclast on October 14, 2008 at 11:39 AM
What was the old ad campaign…
Oh yeah, “New Jersey and Your Tax Dollars, Perfect Together”.
sanguine4 on October 14, 2008 at 11:41 AM
Newsflash: 90% of those wanting to leave NJ are conservatives. They want to do to NJ what has already been done in my poor (in every sense of the word) California.
TimothyJ on October 14, 2008 at 11:45 AM
["I also know people who leave here for less-costly states, and at least some of them are the people who sported “Happy to Pay for a Better Minnesota” bumper stickers on their cars."]
Wildcatter1980 on October 14, 2008 at 11:02 AM
This view of reality seems to be germaine to the liberal thought process. Advocating reducing carbon footprints and espousing alternative energy while flying around in designer jets/limos, consuming 5-times the average electric usage and fighting against windmills in your exclusive neighborhood because it obstructs views is par for the course.
Goodeye_Closed on October 14, 2008 at 11:54 AM
Where are we going to move when NJ polices are spread across the whole country?
lorien1973 on October 14, 2008 at 12:03 PM
TEXAS….
Most active death penalty state in the nation
No state income tax
Gun Ownership not only a sacred right, but a duty
Homestead Act…IRS cannot confiscate your home
Castle Law….can use dealy force to protect your property
Solidly conservative
Yea, we have our faults, but I guarantee it will be a long time before the “blue locusts” could EVER hope to come here and change things.
Goodeye_Closed on October 14, 2008 at 12:05 PM
The Communication Workers of America, New Jersey Education Association, the Police unions, among others, vote as a block and maintain the dominance of the demo-rat party. The few RINO’s in office pander to the unions as well.
The public employee in NJ is compensated higher than his private sector counterpart in salary, health and retirement benefits.
They, and the other unions have learned that they can fatten themselves from the public treasury as long as they continue voting the libs into office.
NJ will shortly begin a descent into bankruptcy as is California.
bloviator on October 14, 2008 at 12:20 PM
The Blue locusts DO take over, wherever they go.
When I was a resident of WA state, the same thing happened when Microsoft opened up shop. All the CA locusts came in & swooped down for the jobs & nice easy living the Seattle area had to give. Soon after that it became an unbearable cesspool.
So I left for WY. Nothing but nice easy & cheap living there. If you can stand the wind.
When the liberals come in, they take over & ruin the landscape-political,social,economical,even environmental. These are the people who move out to the country bcs they want clean air living & no noise. Then they sue the farmer next door bcs his cow poop stinks too much. Then they complain how they can’t go anyplace to get a latte. Pretty soon they set up a Starbucks & McDonald’s on every corner & Wa-lah! It looks just like the place they left.
Unbelievable retards.
Badger40 on October 14, 2008 at 12:22 PM
It is our way and our heritage to reelect. Heck, I seldom even see them running with opposition unless it’s another democrat. My wife’s aunt thinks TK and BF are the greatest things since sliced bread as do her parents. I do my part by voting anything other then democrat or writing in my name. I vote mostly for the questions because at least I can try to do the right thing before it gets reversed.
jmarcure on October 14, 2008 at 12:26 PM
regarding Michigan:
In Michigan when a city hits critical mass it does not change, it becomes the living dead. Half of Detroit still supports the deposed mayor. And that is half of Detroit, literally, since Detroit has lost half its population in the last 20 years.
My own liberal city had a pension plan so the city clerk, who made salary of 50K will receive a pension of 75K. Property tax on a $114K home almost $4000
Meanwhile the governor and everyone else insist education will solve the jobs problem.
1. If that was true no one would hire illegals
2. education has a different meaning in Michigan
I heard a teacher in a local school system say on the local cable, ‘yes I still teach reading and writing but if my students come out of this class understanding they are citizens of the world and know how to control their anger I will have done my job’ as her third graders drew pictures of people holding hands in an anger management session
3. Workers do not attract jobs. Jobs attract workers. It is like saying to get a car, buy some car insurance and the car will come
The phrase that makes my skin crawl: We have to grow jobs here in Michigan
You grow tomatos not jobs
The only job growing fertilizer around her is the BS coming from out politicians and their sister criminals the PC educators
Michigan is like being in a hospital bed paralyzed and unable to signal the nurse that you are not in a coma and you are not brain dead. The nurse who is on a welfare work study program cannot read the charts anyway and she has already decided what you need. Plus your shoes are her size
Yet, Romney was a vote magnet in the primaries. Mochigan was an opportunity state for the politician who promised more than a windmill factory
I still wish I could sell my house and get out
entagor on October 14, 2008 at 12:27 PM
Worst part is, if they leave New Jersey, they will probably vote in the same tyoe of BS gov’t wherever they wind up and screw up other people’s lives.
PJ Emeritus on October 14, 2008 at 12:27 PM
you’re just getting a preview of what the entire country will be in a few short years!!
right4life on October 14, 2008 at 12:30 PM
As a non-native living in New Jersey for some 20+ years, I finally gave up and left and never looked back. People there don’t wanna change, even though they say they do. We had Democrat and Republican governors, congressional and local elected officials, but nothing ever changed. I watched my property taxes increase more than my mortgage and car payments combined.
What can you say about the only state in the nation that charges people to walk on the sands of it’s shoreline? Greed. It’s what’s for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Plus it’s too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter. The mosquito is the state bird and so is the middle finger. Camden is the murder capitol of the world. Highway tolls on the GSP & Turnpike are explained as easing traffic congestion and under threat of loosing federal funding if rates are not raised.
AND, everything above Rt195 is considered NY State territory.
So goodbye, good luck, and good riddance. When the last person leaves New Jersey, turn off the lights.
Kini on October 14, 2008 at 12:30 PM
It is easier to move away than removing the entrenched corruption. And while Jersey gets a bad rap, it is not that hard to move somewhere nicer.
Mr. Joe on October 14, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Ed, as a CA ex-pat you should know how hard it is to vote in a better government here, especially if you live in SF or LA. I’m planning on leaving CA in a couple of years. I can’t stand living here anymore. I do like our mild winters, but the government of this state is a complete wash and I’m almost sure the cartels have bought off the LA city council. The districts are so gerrymandered you couldn’t vote out the idiots if you wanted to. There’s no such thing as reform here. The GOP in this state has given up because it’s in such a minority they don’t even support their own candidates. The Dems run practically unopposed. It’s pathetic. CA can keep its high taxes and failing socialist system. I’m going somewhere else with less people.
Oh, and when CA does try to do something to change the way it’s run, the courts toss it out as unconstitutional (e.g. Prop 187).
wherestherum on October 14, 2008 at 12:44 PM
There is no way around it and no nice way to put it. Liberals are idiots.
I can already see them starting to mess up my haven in Tennessee. Can’t we build a fence around our red states and say liberals need not apply for admittance?
pannw on October 14, 2008 at 12:47 PM
You nailed it. That’s the worst part. The choice is usually between a Democrat and no one. I vote against them every chance I get, and spend time trying to convince my conservative-but-raised-democrat friends that they’re voting the opposite of their own beliefs. So far it’s working….the neighbors are voting McCain.
RedMindBlueState on October 14, 2008 at 12:47 PM
…there’s an interesting phenomenon that an online friend of mine once told me of (or, rather, confirmed my suspicions of its existence). It goes like this:
1) Persons from California (the state I was observing, but holds true for other high-cost states in the Northeast and elsewhere) get fed up with the high cost of living.
2) Persons formerly-known-as-Californians arrive in new, lower-cost place…say Arkansas (where my friend was from), Texas, or some other “flyover” place.
3) Establishing in their new job, they cast about for a house, awash in lucre from having sold their over-valued hooch back in Orange/Marin/Santa Clara county.
4) They over-pay for some existing structure, or, unsatisfied with mere houses, happily pay for the building of some faux-mainsionette.
5) They then notice that there isn’t any bilingual education or other special programs in the schools.
6) They notice that folks have septic systems instead of city sewers, don’t have street lighting, don’t have sidewalks, etc. in the little towns the choose to grace with their presence.
7) Once enough of them are around to mess things up seriously, they begin to raise the cost of living in their new digs, making it impossible for the “natives”.
8) They never have a clue that this is going on…some just move from rural area to rural area, screwing things up as they go along.
I’ve often wondered how 20-30 million Mexican citizens — from my certain and personal experience, some of the best folks around, and certainly some of the best and most able folks in Mexico — can’t un-screw their country…a place with as much talent, resources, and moxie as we have north of the border.
It’s the same problem: things are bad here now, but it’d be too much trouble to fix it…so we’ll run away. “I don’wanna fix our country/state/town…it’d be to haaaaaaard, Mommy…I’ll just move and whine somewhere’s else….”
Now, in the interests of “truth in advertising”, I come from a family that hasn’t spent two generations in once place since, oh, the 14th Century (I’ve looked it up). We haven’t buried two generations of the folks in my direct bloodline in one county, except for the first three generations on one side, since 1620…and my great-grandfather ended up living in Oklahoma and California after farming in Ohio and Nebraska in his long life…we have the itchy-foot, my people.
…and, I was born in California, and now live in Texas…although I’m not an “economic migrant”…I let Uncle Sam make my decisions in this regard…and settled where he last stationed me and my family…Thank the Eternal that it was Texas!
You improve your situation, you don’t run from it…if your personal tastes and habits — voting Democratic, insisting on expensive school programs and useless infrastructure additions, and insisting on social levelling with the government in the drivers seat — are driving you out of house and home…well…WISE THE HELL UP!
…and, if you do move, blend in…if you can’t, keep on moving….
Puritan1648 on October 14, 2008 at 12:50 PM
I do still vote, every chance I get, even though I know it’s futile. Just like voting for McCain in CA is futile, but I’m holding my nose and voting for him anyway. I just tell myself I’m really just voting for Sarah and her name just happens to be attached to his.
But it’s disheartening when all your friends are democrats. *sigh*
wherestherum on October 14, 2008 at 12:52 PM
Someone else made your point of wealthy liberals who flee expensive states only to whine about the lack of socialism/insert item liberals cannot possibly live without here in flyover country. When I move outta here, I want the lack of socialism. TX sounds real good to me. I just want a nice sprawling ranch style house with some acreage so I can have lots of dogs who have room to run around and neighbors close enough to help, but far enough away to ensure privacy. As long as the closest city is an hour or so away (without traffic) I’m good.
wherestherum on October 14, 2008 at 12:57 PM
One reason Virginia is in danger of voting blue this year is the large influx of northeasterners (I avoided the term “damn Yankees” in deference to the conservatives among you) who’ve ruined their own states with their voting habits. Thinking that something else was the cause of the problem, they come down here and vote in liberal dems thinking that somehow it will “work” here. Most of the problem is in northern Virginia, with it’s high number of D.C. bureaucrats living in the suburbs. Tidewater also has a large number, probably working in the military service sector.
TugboatPhil on October 14, 2008 at 1:00 PM
…not true at all…look at Austin. The third highest homosexual population in the nation…Travis County is geographically in about the middle of the state, but is ideologically between Boston and Westchester County, NY….
…Dell sucked a lot of blue-state bozos in…and, when it finally layed off 4000 folks back in 2000, they don’t appear to have gone anywhere…Pflugerville, Round Rock, and Austin bedroom communities are awash in blue state amenities, including idiotic traffic control measures leading to a metroplex impossible to drive through, arrogant environmental legislation, and a burgeoning underclass enculturated to stealing from eachother.
Houston’s worse. Parts of Dallas are worst still…but, at least they confine it to the cities.
Where we are, there’s “nothing to do”, and we like that fine. You can drive to San Antonio, get all the congestion, overpriced coffee, hoity-toity overpriced shopping you can stand, see a movie, and motor home…to where you can raise chickens in the back yard (one of the reasons we bought the place we’ve got is that it has a coop in the back, behind the storage shed), the schools call you when they or your kids need you, and “blue” means “depressed” or “depressing”.
I’m for keeping the blue-state elites where they belong…about 50 miles offshore….
Puritan1648 on October 14, 2008 at 1:01 PM
I grew up in New Jersey, spent my entire childhood in the same house. My husband and I go back periodically to New Jersey (we bought my house to stop it from being torn down; it’s a nearly 150 year old mortice and tenon wood frame; we’re fixing it up to rent), and I can’t believe how it’s changed.
I grew up in the best section of Jersey City, the Heights. My parents picked it because of the great schools, low crime, etc. It’s changed. The neighbours house is illegally rented out to 4 or 5 roomers, including one in what used to be the garage. We’ve had a hard time finding honest contractors, people are constantly trespassing and dumping garbage in our dumpster, and we’ve had things stolen several times; once it was the portable generator in the house, and the thief stepped on and broke the water main while breaking in.
I got a ticket for high weeds (we live in Washington state), because the guy tending the lawn didn’t do a good job. The state took so long cashing my cheque for the ticket that they issued a warrant for my arrest. The crime there is terrible but I had a warrant out for my arrest for high weeds. They realised I had paid the fine within a few days of issuing it, but never sent me another letter saying so.
As for dirty politics… my mom was a poll challenger when I still lived there and my dead father voted in elections for years. When she brought it up, she was told it was best to not make a stink about it.
My cute street that was lined with sycamores and neat different houses (it’s an old part of town), is now littered with cheap, 3 story tall, multifamily ‘houses’ that take up the whole lot. Parking is even worse as a result and people took to making curb cuts so they could park in their own front yards, and finally the city put an end to that. The water inspector said that he’s been to houses where there are dozens of people living there (illegals), but he’s not supposed to make a complaint about it. The property taxes we’re paying on the house are astronomical; I pay every quarter what I think I should pay all year.
Yet I still see tons of signs up for Democrats. Democrats have practically run that state, (except for Kean and Whitman), and definitely run that town for decades and decades yet people won’t vote anyone else in, despite all these problems and how trashed the city now looks. I just don’t get it.
linlithgow on October 14, 2008 at 1:11 PM
…in the end, of course, it’s being able to afford the move and to set up where you end up…which means, for many, jobs….
…be cagey…ask around…check the price per acre of land, and figure out how much you’ll want…and don’t settle for those subdivided little “ranches” folks sell (1-10 acres) which are bare land, often with electrical and water and sewer lines in or promised, but will one day be subdivisions….
It’s often best to find an existing place in an existing town, and to then eat the cost of the commute. I’ve found that returning from the city, there’s a pasture area just as I enter our county limits, the sight of which always causes the stresses I accumulated in the city to evaporate.
We were stationed near downtown San Antonio for nearly 5 years, and on retirement decided to range out of town for a place. We found a small place (1400 sq/ft) on .3 acres, which is enough for us (we don’t keep dogs, but have somehow accumulated a herd of stray cats). It was under $75K…and prices down here are waaaaaaaay down…because the town itself is a work in progress, so to speak, and doesn’t offer the amenities most socialists think are de rigeur (high-speed internet, fancy eateries, fancy cafes, lots of shopping). For us, Wal*Mart is “fancy shopping”.
Mind you, because our county is 60% hispanic, all of the federal and state reps are Democrats…but they’re not New Jersey Democrats…they know that their constituents are poor, working class…and armed. They behave themselves….
It’s a trade-off…and for us, a mortgage of a tiny bit over $600 p/mo tipped the balance for us. That sort of thing is still possible in South Texas…if you don’t mind driving a ways to see a first-run movie, etc.
For my part, living simply, cheaply, and quietly is what I worked my life to be able to do…and if Wal*Mart doesn’t have it, I don’t need it.
Puritan1648 on October 14, 2008 at 1:12 PM
If you believe there is the slightest chance at all of voting those folk from office and makeing a major change in that states governance, you need to be kept away from any sharp objects.
The larger problem will be for millions of neo-socialists fleeing the state, going to places that are still free, and then demanding they change into hell holes like they left, as has happened with Mass-holes in Maine and NH and Californians in Nevada and Colorado.
JIMV on October 14, 2008 at 1:16 PM
I just remembered an expression we used to use in the Army which encapsulates the mindset of the “oh, well, what’cha gonna do?” crowd:
“Head down, butt up and shut up!”
…and, considering the direction the Dems’ve been taking for the last quarter century, and their key constituencies, that’s an even more apt expression than ever….
Puritan1648 on October 14, 2008 at 1:16 PM
entagor, I sympathise.
134k valued house = 7k in property taxes in Jersey City.
linlithgow on October 14, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Liberals think the “rich people” have enough to support everyone, so just go take it.
What they don’t get is that everyone has to work for value to be created. When you just “take wealth and spread it around” the wealth disappears because 1) existing wealth gets used up, and 2) new wealth is not created at the necessary replacement rate because there is no incentive to keep creating wealth if it’s just going to get taken away from you and spread around to people who COULD but choose NOT to create wealth.
How hard is that to understand?
JustTruth101 on October 14, 2008 at 1:19 PM
“not true at all…look at Austin”
Puritan1648 on October 14, 2008
Yes, Austin and the immediate area ARE liberal safe havens, every state has them, but even Houston with all it’s horror is still very conservative, own guns, and don’t put up with the bull**** (I wouldn’t live there EVER)
Even though the big cities you mentioned do have high crime, it’s mostly thug-on-thug crime. Breaking into a home in Texas can be VERY risky.
Puritan, I have liberal friends and realitives here and they are different than the radical north-east variety….Think Kinky Friedman and you’ll get the idea.
I live 150-200 miles south of you from the way it sounds (CC).
Goodeye_Closed on October 14, 2008 at 1:27 PM
By voting for it.
A lot of us “unsophisticated” Arizonans are transplants from the East (I’m from Virginia), and have graduate degrees from liberal east coast universities (I have two of those myself). Doesn’t mean we’re too stupid to vote in our own self-interest. And yes, the desert areas are very hot here in the summertime, but the rest of the year the weather is wonderful. We get more days of sunshine per year than Florida, the desert landscapes are beautiful, and the sunsets are breathtaking. When you get tired of the desert, the pine forests and snowy mountaintops of northern Arizona are just a few hours away (by car).
If you’re looking to re-locate, there are worse choices than Arizona. Property taxes are relatively low here, and housing prices are very cheap at the moment. So if you can unload your house in NJ or NY or Michigan or one of those other blue states, come on down! The more conservatives we can get here, the better off we’ll be.
AZCoyote on October 14, 2008 at 1:28 PM
My house in a very good part of Grand Rapids has been on the market since April and priced to sell for the neighborhood. The problem is that nobody is buying period.
highhopes on October 14, 2008 at 1:33 PM
You know as well as I do tat the first thing to happen after a victory will be the eft finding a nice bought judge to invalidate the process.
JIMV on October 14, 2008 at 1:34 PM
This would only be possible in a functioning democracy, which NJ long ago stopped being. I don’t think the depth of corruption is fully understood outside the ‘garden’ state. Elections are a joke, similar to elections in Cuba. If an entrenched liberal politician breaks the law, hey no problem! They literally own every judge in the state so they just have the law changed! Simple!
This liberal utopia is a done deal. Now the libs are moving on to Penns to get their hooks in there.
Wine_N_Dine on October 14, 2008 at 1:35 PM
Just out of curiosity, those living in these socialist blue meccas who say they would leave if they could- where would they go?
Back in the 1990s I had the opportunity to move from MD to the (then) booming Charlotte NC market. It took one trip down to decide that the grass isn’t always greener.
highhopes on October 14, 2008 at 1:36 PM
That is how it works…the dems turn more and more communist and the republicans think selecting and electing RINO’s is how to combat the dems give a ways so we find democrat commies and republican RINO’s fighting to spend money and buy votes. The end result is simple. Why vote for a pretend commie when you can get the real thing by voting democrat.
JIMV on October 14, 2008 at 1:42 PM
Tks. for the invite. I’ve vacationed in your beautiful state twice. Last April my family hiked part-way down into the Grand Canyon, just before the fires. Checked out Flagstaff too.
Of course, have been in the lib zone too (N.Tucson to Sedona) but not looking to re-create what I’ve got.
I’d probably be partial to the higher altitudes in the SE corner, but am concerned with the illegal problem. I hear Fort Huachuca itself is overrun nightly by illegals. If it wasn’t for that, I would be considering the state more seriously.
JiangxiDad on October 14, 2008 at 2:21 PM
My family fled New Jersey for the southernmost redoubts of red-state America many years ago, and have watched our old home state degenerate ever since. The problem is that once you find a good place to move, a stream of fellow refugees comes in right behind you, and immediately set about changing your new home into the same liberal hellhole they escaped from. Northeastern transplants to my state are particularly obnoxious this way. You can measure the length of time before they start loudly declaring how much better they did everything “back up north” with a stopwatch.
Liberalism relies upon the tendency of conservatives to regret the negative consequences of their policies, and the absolute refusal of liberals to admit theirs. To average folks, the plight of those who fail to prosper under capitalism justifies social welfare. To liberals, the abject failure of a trillion-dollar welfare state means another trillion dollars are needed. The voters of New Jersey will never admit they’ve been hoodwinked by corrupt socialists, or that liberal policies have rendered their state almost uninhabitable. They’ll just flock to the next shady mobbed-up Democrat with an exciting new tax and spending plan. The alternatives are unthinkable, so they don’t think about them.
On the national level, this is what makes Obama-style socialism so rabid and dangerous. As long as there’s someplace to run, they will blame the escapees for the failure of the system. Therefore, there must be nowhere left to run.
Doctor Zero on October 14, 2008 at 2:28 PM
Organize, petition, run candidates for office, repeat until successful, introduce legislation, repeat until successful, fight through the courts to get it implemented, repeat until successful – 20 years and tens of $millions with no promise of success.
Move – six months planning and $20K net out-of-pocket depending on housing/job/etc. market. Few uncertainties, minimal dependence on others.
JEM on October 14, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Here’s the way the world turned rotten.
The area that is now the United States was once blessed due to its lack of population density. The few million or so Indians living throughout North America had it made before their land was flooded with many multi-millions of foreigners, from all over the world. In the early years of the Republic, when the land was primarily a wilderness, the malign influence of foreigners was limited to coastal areas where they got off the boats. It took many generations before settlers and pioneers managed to travel far inland, building their towns and cities in once pristine regions. Finally, it took the labor demands of the Industrial Revolution to really ramp up the waves of immigration, which washed over this country like a hurricane surge.
Looking back, it seems clear that these voluminous settlers fouled up every area they trod upon. Its what people have always done; its what happened in Europe and Asia, and what led to people leaving the old countries. Even Jefferson recognized that the American experiment in liberty would not be viable in an over-populated, non-agrarian society. Eventually, America became just like the places these people left behind.
In the past, the migration westward eased the ever-present problems rooted in the human tendency toward asininity. If your neighbors got too sickening in their behavior and lousy judgment, you could always leave and build a place in the woods, on the plains, in the mountains, or in the desert. American liberty prospered in a country that was too vast to govern, in an historical time period where the level of technology limited the ability of the government to hound everyone. But it was only a short-lived solution that delayed the inevitability of being victimized by your fellow man.
What we see today is the fruit of many years of the growth of Leviathan government, over many generations. And it will only get worse, since people today are mostly employees of some company someplace, and not independent farmers that are self-responsible. People today rely on their paychecks to survive, not their own landed resources. Most everyone is on the government dole, in some form or fashion.
There’s not much hope for the future in this scenario. The only thing left is to find some obscure, unsettled, and likely unpopular part of this country that hasn’t yet fallen under the satanic sway of trendy, popular culture, and the idiocies of the community. And live your life like a mountain man or monk of old, in some secluded oasis of sanity in a lunatic world.
The Shakers and the Amish are the models…
blackelkspeaks on October 14, 2008 at 2:39 PM
The problem there is like the problem in many large cities. There is a swelling underclass that has been trained by the government to be utterly useless and completely dependent on the government for everything they have or want.
As long as the government pays people to be social leaches and discourages them from working or learning, the problem will get worse.
saiga on October 14, 2008 at 2:51 PM
A very minor reason. Major reasons? A bloated state bureaucracy, sweetheart packages for state employees and a coven of vampires known as the NJEA.
ManlyRash on October 14, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Manly, here’s your chance. Get thyself south. Now!
HornetSting on October 14, 2008 at 2:59 PM
Red Flight?
Goodeye_Closed on October 14, 2008 at 3:10 PM
Are you on drugs? Say what we will about New Jersey, but it enjoys some of the most moderate weather in the country. Summers rarely average over 85 degrees, with a brief heat wave now and then. Winters are a joke…the state goes into full blown panic if we get 6 inches of snow. Average winter temps rarely go below the high 20’s with only periodic cold spells of a few days. No Arizona oven heat, no Minnesota deep freezes, no Buffalo blizzards, no weeks of constant Seattle rain, no tornadoes, no hurricanes, no earthquakes, no wildfires, no dust storms, no Santa Ana winds.
Thanks to more effective insect control the NJ mosquito is a thing of myth. The middle finger is reserved only for people who use turn signals or mistakenly follow the road signs in this state.
Actually, that dubious honor belongs to either Detroit or D.C.
ManlyRash on October 14, 2008 at 3:12 PM
All in good time, darlin’
ManlyRash on October 14, 2008 at 3:13 PM
You’re right of course. And it doesn’t take much of a genius to see it. 200 years is about right from settlement to peak. Spengler talked about it, other cultures from the Greeks to the Chinese experienced it. I hardly saw it coming until it nearly knocked me down. Now I’m reeling from it, and nobody I know even knows what I’m talking about. Talk about you’re world getting smaller. Every day it diminishes another mile. I just need to figure out how/where to get my two girls best situated. Don’t care a rat’s ass for myself anymore. At least that’s something.
JiangxiDad on October 14, 2008 at 3:31 PM
No, what they need to do is move somewhere together. One conservative/libertarian moving to Montana, another moving to Alabama, and another to Alaska only distributes the vote. They need to concentrate the vote by selecting a common destination. For the north easterners maybe New Hampshire.
But the real problem with America is that there is no place left to “settle”. For over a hundred years every time somebody got sick of Massachusetts or New Jersey they could just pack up and move west. Where do they go now? Wherever is sinking the slowest?
I live in Oregon and I see the same pattern that the rest of you do. Little Beirut AKA Portland Oregon is a destination for Liberals from California to New York because of the lower cost of living coupled with the “Bohemian” community that I can’t stand. Now these idiots come over here for the natural beauty and (relatively) low costs/taxation and what do they do? They try their damnedest to make Portland compete with New York and San Francisco. We’ve got a $400,000 titanium “sculpture” that resembles an erect penis down on Burnside that the Local City Government thought was worthy of public dollars, just to give one example.
Now the majority of the State of Oregon is rural and conservative (though for generations they’ve voted Democrat because Republicans are evil or so the schools have taught them) but these rural areas just do not have the population to vote in a better government. We’re stuck with our Bohemian masters. Where to go? Washington can’t even elect a governor without the left stealing the election. Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and Nevada are going from purple to blue as they absorb refugees from California. One can sympathize with Alaska’s independence movement.
What we need, truly need, is a new frontier. The open ocean, orbital space colonies or perhaps some hearty persons to settle on Antarctica (UN treaties be damned) because only with a new place can we start over where the urban socialist hasn’t already contaminated the soil.
Browncoatone on October 14, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Maybe a country in need of money will sell some land. We grew tremendously because Russia and France needed money. Do you know a country in a serious financial crisis that would like to get some hard quick cash by selling some territory? The only thing is, it must be vacated before the new owner takes possession.
JiangxiDad on October 14, 2008 at 4:01 PM
The same way we can (supposedly) vote for a more responsive and less costly federal government.
Dark-Star on October 14, 2008 at 5:19 PM
I hear Iceland is for sale.
Browncoatone on October 14, 2008 at 5:28 PM
…every state, no matter how “backward” by northeastern establishment “sophisticate” standards has liberal scum, much as every dog has fleas, if you look close enough.
I wanted to note that Texas isn’t exactly an idyll…that there are places to avoid. Houston is definitely one…Katy is nice, and nearby…but I remember one of my friends in Houston, over by where an old Compaq HQ was, lived in a neighborhood where the houses mostly had burglar bars on the windows…on the inside…how nasty must the neighborhood be when the burglars will, as a parting shot, steal your burglar bars?…
…if you’re in Corpus, you’re almost exactly 100 miles south on I-37. We’re about 9 miles from the onramp…and we’ve been there exactly once…to see the Lexington and have lunch….
…personally, I like McMullen county…due west and north a bit from Corpus, and the country right beneath our own…the county seat, Tilden, has slightly over half of the population in the county…450 souls (2000 census)…it consists of one state highway down the middle north/south, two roads paralleling the state road, and a few feeder roads running east/west…most of ‘em unpaved.
Most of the county is ranchland, some set aside for wildlife hunts, etc.
“Stone Cold” Steve Austin lives down there…I’ve seen him in the local Wal*Mart…very nice fellow….
…850 people in the county…my kid of place….
Puritan1648 on October 14, 2008 at 6:23 PM
I think that pretty much describes our situation. We’re not in a buy position these days.
DFCtomm on October 14, 2008 at 8:02 PM
I’ve lived here all 47 of my years and love this state. It’s not NY or Phila. We had the best of both worlds here. It used to be a GREAT place to live. The pollution angle has always been overblown. No earthquakes, tornados, fires, mudslides, etc. Instead, we have the most corrupt set of politicians in the nation, if not the world! I think I’d rather have an occasional earthquake. It’s like a game to them, what can they get for themselves or their buddies?! The reason people want to leave is the fact that things are not getting better, they’re getting worse! The political bosses run the state and will promise the folks in the cities anything and everything to stay in power. That’s where the power is concentrated. Unfortunately, it works. Personal responsibility has gone out the window. It’s all “what’s in it for me?” This state was “Obamasized” before anyone had ever heard of The One. God help us. Will the last person to leave NJ, please turn off the lights!
farleyman on October 14, 2008 at 11:27 PM
I was married for three years and now divorced. My ex-wife lives with my 5-year old son in Clawson, MI. I pay for him to go to the Catholic grammar school there which is very good.
That school is the only good thing in that cesspool state. Best thing to happen to the USA is if MI secedes and joins Canada.
The southeast part of MI is a moral, economic, social wasteland. I got a great job in Alabama. The people are soooooo much nicer here. The wife would not follow me because she put herself and her father first rather than putting the marriage and our own family first.
Some day, the boy will join me here in God’s country. I’m Catholic and have FAR more in common with the whites and blacks here in Bama that Michigan or California (first 35 years of my life), including the Southern Baptists and other evangelicals.
Sapwolf on October 15, 2008 at 12:24 AM
I wish Texas would have the balls to secede. There are many conservatives in the other 49 states that would pay money to join the state and be part of the ’cause’.
The thirst for freedom is dwindling as the addiction to sloth and welfare is growing. Doesn’t anyone want freedom anymore?
Obama getting elected makes me think of the Elves in Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings who gradually leave Middle-Earth and all its problems by sailing on ships to the West. It is either march west and try to escape on one of those ships, or stay and die valiantly fighting the inevitable hordes of totalitarianism that is slowly but surely overtaking our country.
Sapwolf on October 15, 2008 at 12:37 AM
I love Australia, but they’ve got some serious nanny-state problems themselves. The speed enforcement in Vic state is enough in itself to scare one away unless you can ship in a quarter-million new voters en masse to throw out the existing clowns.
One of the less-populous states might be a better bet.
Bear in mind it gets hot in their summers and the flies are BIG.
JEM on October 15, 2008 at 4:09 AM
I am seeing way too many New York, New Jersey, California, Massachusetts, Minnesota and Michigan license plates here in Houston. It is like the late 1970’s when a third of Michigan moved here.
I think we will have to start running them off again.
Nahanni on October 15, 2008 at 11:49 AM
Ed,
I fervently wish that reversing the trend herein New Jersey were as easy as you suggest it should be. But the truth is, that New Jersey appears to have permanently left the responsibility reservation. Democrat voting majorities simply return the same people to statewide office over and over.
Democrat candidates for office are no longer held to any of their campaign promises, regardless of how outrageous they are.
Just as an example, Corzine promised to reduce property taxes by forty percent in four years — he called it “40 in 4.” Needless to say, he has done no such thing, and, having promised to return the state to fiscal responsibility, he has instead driven us further into fiscal disrepute. Corzine entered office with an essentially 24 billion dollar bonded indebtedness, which, by the end of his term will have increased again by half.
It is ALL about “prevailing wage” union jobs — school construction and highway repair. Period.
This summer, he signed an admittedly unbalanced budget, which expressly violates our State constitution. His excuse was that it would have been even more out of balance if he had signed the budget the Legislature passed! So, he redlined some excesses, but not enough to balance the budget. As a result, many papers laud him for fiscal responsibility. No one holds his feet to the fire.
And, he has told supporters that he will do “whatever it takes” to win re-election. Many interpret that to mean he will spend up to $100 million on his re-election campaign in order to win.
No one can compete with that.
In addition, the rampant, and largely Democrat corruption we have been experiencing, seems not to move people in casting their ballots. Not at all.
Currently, the former dual Chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, and the Budget Oversight Committee, former Senator Wayne Bryant, is on criminal trial in federal court for, among other things, holding a few state paid “no show” jobs.
One he got by muscling the state’s University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey (UMDNJ) into personally hiring him as their lobbyist — to lobby himself (in those dual Chairmanships) so he would increase the state budget amount to be given to the school!
Another was with a neighboring county, where he was personally hired for work — but did not show up himself! He would send an associate from his law firm. But Wayne personally drew the salary.
His “job” at UMDNJ consisted of showing up around once a week or so, at an essentially satellite facility closer to his home, where he sat around reading newspapers for a few hours.
But the combined salaries for the no-show jobs and his Legislator’s salary, totalled about $150,000.00 or more a year. He held them for a few years, and that allowed him to “boost” his state pension. He just retired a year or two ago with an $87,000.00 a year pension!
He was a part legislator!
But no one seems to really care. He had to resign in disgrace when he was indicted, and another Democrat from his machine was immediately appointed. She will undoubtedly be “re-elected” next year.
Trochilus on October 15, 2008 at 2:19 PM
Places that seem to consider citizens second class to businesses?
As a resident of said state, it does have its misgivings. After losing places like Mead, NCR(quite worker friendly until the AT&T merger) and General Motors, it should be no surprise that we’ve flipped gradually from red to something a lot closer to blue.
Now what do you describe a population whom:
1) Rejects the overuse of environmentalism (such as seen often on The Left). Note that there have been more than a few environmentalist Ohioans that have headed off to Colorado/elsewhere.
2) Considers Detroit automotive manufacturing something that must be doable within our borders at all times.
3) Wants a southern border as well defended as a certain border in the Middle East.
4) Rejects illegal immigration and approves punishment of all who aid/abet it. This includes the adoption of the Arizona “Business Death Penalty” laws.
5) Defends the 2nd Amendment and rejects gun control laws entirely.
6) Is adversarial towards globalization and free trade only due to seeing broken promises of prosperity for over 30+ years. The only thing we seem to get is a ton of talk about pushing Ohio to be hostile to anything that isn’t a business.
If you still want to call that state “socialist”, go ahead. I won’t blame you, but it’s not as if we haven’t succeeded with a healthy mix of respecting the worker and respecting the honest business(as opposed to places like Wal*Mart after Sam Walton).
sethstorm on October 15, 2008 at 6:24 PM
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