Open thread: Wall Street; Update: Dow finishes down — slightly
posted at 9:19 am on October 10, 2008 by Allahpundit
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It’s going to be a long, interesting, excruciating day, so let’s open a thread for chatter. Reading stuff like this and this feels like being told there’s a giant asteroid headed towards Earth and it’s probably going to hit but maybe not, so, you know, cross those fingers. For context:
“The closest I have seen to this in the last 10 to 20 years is the spike after 9/11,” said Richard Chaifetz, chief executive of ComPsych Corp., a Chicago-based company that coordinates mental health referrals for employers. “But this is more geographically dispersed and is not going to get better in a month.”
The Dow’s not the barometer of the underlying problem but it probably is a reasonably fair barometer of public panic, so that’s what we’re watching. The bell rings in 10 minutes. Exit question: Where will it close today?
Update: I’m guilty of this myself: “A second key factor is that some small investors in the US are throwing in the towel. It is thought that a lot of the overnight sell-off on Wall Street was driven by small investors cashing in mutual funds — the US equivalent of unit trusts — and forcing selling by fund managers in order to return cash to investors.”
Update: Down 521 in the first five minutes. Quote:
“We aren’t dealing with a fundamental economic issue any longer,” said James Paulsen, chief investment strategist for Wells Capital Management. “We are dealing with fear. And that doesn’t respond to economic medicine.”
Update: Much-needed optimism from Hugh Hewitt. I’m assuming that the bottom is approaching and that big investors are ready to go bargain hunting, but given that the underlying problem is with liquidity, who’s willing to sink cash back in?
After the first wave of panic selling, 10 minutes after the opening bell, it’s bounced back to -350 from about -700.
Update: In case you’re wondering. I feel faintly dizzy at the realization that we’re at the point of having to talk about this:
The Dow Jones industrial average would have to fall 1,100 points in a day to trigger the first halt [in trading]. Based on Thursday’s Dow close of 8,579, the threshold number to cause the market to stop on Friday would be 7,479. If that point is reached before 2 p.m., the market will shut down for an hour. If the threshold is breached between 2 p.m. and 2:30 p.m., the halt will last 30 minutes. No trading stops would take place if the plunge occurs after 2:30 p.m.
If the index were to fall 2,200 points before 1 p.m., the market would close for two hours. If such a decline took place between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m., there would be a one-hour pause. The market would close for the day if stocks sank to that level after 2 p.m.
In the event of a 3,350-point decline, the market would close for the day, regardless of the time.
It’s actually all the way back up to even at the moment.
Update: Tom Maguire expects a late afternoon rally in anticipation of good news from the G7 summit this weekend. Let’s hope; late afternoons haven’t been kind this week.
If you’re wondering where the bottom is historically for massive corrections, we’re pretty much there. But past results are no predictor of future etc etc etc.
Watch CBS Videos Online
Update: Maguire almost called it. The Dow was down around 450 at 3 p.m. when a monster rally broke and pushed it to +200 about five minutes before the closing bell. Whereupon it promptly dropped hundreds of points again. The exact number’s not set yet but it finished at around -120. Not good, but no crash, thank god.
This weekend’s task: Canned goods!
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I’m still in the green.
Vashta.Nerada on October 10, 2008 at 11:27 AM
agreed…but I have heard the cheerleading, but no plan…as you stated, the plan was a desperate act, from the same men who put us in this bind.
right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 11:30 AM
From Mulligan:
I’d feel better if he had included the issue of liquidity, that is, the commercial paper that allows businesses to function. To me, that is where what’s happening on Wall Street really bites Main Street in the a$$, because when businesses (all over) stop functioning, then huge layoffs will take place. THAT will really hurt everybody.
smellthecoffee on October 10, 2008 at 11:30 AM
I’ll leave highhopes out of this because I can’t recall what I think of his (or her) comments. Leaving that aside, I agree with you entirely that Obama scares me to death. In his own personal financial planning, Obama shows that he doesn’t understand economic matters. He didn’t start consistently using an interest-bearing checking account until 2005. Picky point, but I’m not inclined to turn anything related to money over to that moron. Carly Fiorini was correct: not one of the candidates knows anything about economic matters except maybe Palin because she’s dealt with the energy issues.
That said, McCain has to harness voter anger (not fear), but he’s not. He needs to succintly identify the origins (Clinton and CRA) and the spread (Fannie and Freddie and their Democratic enablers) of our current woes. He has to plant the seeds and send them to sources that confirm his points. Then, he needs to point to Obama (”that one”), and ask whether Obama, given his record, is going to put a stop to Dodd and Frank, who will certainly be returned to Congress. To top things off, McCain needs to point out how careless a steward Obama was with nearly $150 million of other people’s money when he chaired the Chicago Annenberg Challenge. Obama and his board accomplished nothing for Chicago public schools. Voters don’t want to hear that they’ll be voting for an ideological spendthrift in times such as these, if ever. And if he wanders off into earmarks, he should point out the $1 million Obama directed to his wife’s employer the year after it gave her a $200K raise. I’m sure voters will love that. Thomas Sowell made the point in his article today.
McCain has to make these arguments and others, and they will stick. Obama is the poster child for ideological wastefulness. McCain’s problem, however, is that for some reason he seems to think he’s running for Miss Congeniality when, so far as I know, he’s running for president in some very tough times. To be sure, Obama is hiding under the table when he’s not talking tought at his Kool-Aid rallies. But McCain needs to stop telling people he knows how to fix things and actually do something or say something to demonstrate he does know how to fix things.
BuckeyeSam on October 10, 2008 at 11:32 AM
I’d say the housing bubble collapsed not due to overregulation but lack of Congressional oversight and pressure put on the lending industry to ease up on lending standards. That’s not to say that businesses don’t share some of the blame but we wouldn’t be in this position if homeowners had been forced to pony up 20% of the home’s price.
highhopes on October 10, 2008 at 11:34 AM
I went bargain hunting yesterday, found great deals on Apple, Intel, Costco, Microsoft. I’m just holding onto those for a nice long period of time
Defector01 on October 10, 2008 at 11:35 AM
Might get it under 60 NOW.
JiangxiDad on October 10, 2008 at 11:38 AM
WASH POST: The End Of American Capitalism?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/09/AR2008100903425_pf.html
>American capitalism killed right before an election.
>An unknown, communist/socialist influenced candidate leading in the polls with NO record to speak of who has been groomed since he was 12-years old to be president.
>Widespread voter fraud (Acorn)occuring in battleground states.
Will someone tell me what is going on?
Where is this heading and will the American people rise up?
What will be the spark that awakens the majority of the people to hit the streets….if there will be one?
Is the stage being set for a marxist takeover of our country plain as day, right before our eyes?
Goodeye_Closed on October 10, 2008 at 11:41 AM
This Janis Joplin tune seems appropriate today for some reason.
One good thing is gas prices around here are down to $2.95-ish. Still about .25 cents higher than they were last year, but oil prices are the same. Go figure.
Tom Blogical on October 10, 2008 at 11:42 AM
Gateway Pundit On A Roll, Ayers, Obama, Pfleger, and More
Instapundit reports! Good stuff and lots of it, link and keep scrolling.
Mr. Joe on October 10, 2008 at 11:43 AM
I got MSFT as well. Close to 300b market cap, so I’d say it’s unlikely to go bankrupt no matter how far the market falls. I want to gamble on GM once it falls under 4 too.
BadgerHawk on October 10, 2008 at 11:43 AM
Laws were passed and lawsuits filed to force money into housing. Fanny and Freddy also pushed money into housing as a result of threats of regulation. Opacity is what let the situation get out of hand, because most investors didn’t see the problem coming (I’m not an investor, and I didn’t have a clue). You can also lay a bit of blame on the implicit government backing of Fanny and Freddy; investors may not have bothered to look into the problem because they thought there was no risk.
If you can come up with regulation that would have corrected the behavior of Fanny and Freddy, or have allowed the proper assessment of risk to propagate through the system, be my guest. I’m just not sure anyone knew, or knows, how to do that.
Count to 10 on October 10, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Yeah you guys thought I didn’t know what I was talking about when I was saying that six months ago, the same oil speculators who drove up the price of oil to pay for their losses in subprime, were shorting oil in a big way and it would drop to $75 a barrel.
I called it. $75 a barrel.
They bought FOTM puts and shorted oil when it was $140 a barrel. They essentially used HUGE leverage, drove the price of oil down using fraudulent news stories (which is very easy to do BTW) and made HUGE fortunes.
Remember….these are the same people who drove the price up to $140 a barrel.
It’s a fraudulent market and they are using fraudulent media to manipulate it…but the most dangerous thing about it is THE BANKERS ARE ON OBAMA’S SIDE NOW.
THEY ARE CREATING AN ARTIFICAL FREEZE OF THE CREDIT MARKETS IN ORDER TO DESTROY THE ECONOMY AND HELP OBAMA WIN!
Right now, they are shorting stocks in an organized fashion(with media help) and making a fortune while it tanks…and then they will buy up all of the best assets for pennies on the dollar!
There is NO shortage of cash…they are just not lending it!!!
They should be imprisoned immediately. We have to do something to stop this. THE BANKING SYSTEM IS BECOMING NATIONALIZED AND VERY SOON THEY WILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO CONTROL ALL BUYING AND SELLING!!
What is the mark of the beast?
The ability to control all buying and selling.
This is not a joke. There has never been such a run on governmental powers by the Fed in all of U.S. history as has occured in this past week…AFTER the bailout!
SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Obama should be looking at a landslide – but he’s not.
“Having A Six Point Lead is a Precarious Place To Be.”
locomotivebreath1901 on October 10, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Shamelessly copied from my post in headlines.
Nostradamus. Century 8, Quatrain 28
After it is discovered that all is exhausted and dissipated by the debt,
All scrips and bonds will be wiped out.
OldEnglish on October 10, 2008 at 9:40 AM
OldEnglish on October 10, 2008 at 11:48 AM
I was wondering because you seem to be discouraging folks from getting prepared.
csdeven on October 10, 2008 at 11:48 AM
I guess my problem is understanding why Congress created GSEs in the first place. To my mind, that is nothing but government meddling in an area where they should have relied on the free market.
highhopes on October 10, 2008 at 11:49 AM
I look at it this way…In a mnth the McCain problem will be over. A miracle will happen and he wins, or his pitiful campaign ends in a vast defeat. A defeat greatly reduces RINO influence in the party and more will be swept from office in marginal states reducing the party in size but unifying it as to philosophy for the first time in over a decade. Ten we will ave two years of deep recession/depression as the dems have no answer bt raise taxes and spend. Both will cause deeper economic distress. by 2010, with the DOW hanging in around 8000 and nothing happeing n the econom or in the world that is god for us and unemployment at a solid 8-10%, folk will wake up ad throw a good bit of Congress in the unemployment line.
As I type the DOW is down 388 points. Gold is stagnent around $900 and silver a bargain.
JIMV on October 10, 2008 at 11:49 AM
My bad. I left you a deflection opportunity. Care to respond to the real issue of my post? You were defending McCain’s glorious mortgage reduction plan two days ago and the govt
bailout rescueinterference plan.I repeat:
So apparently you are fine with the gov’t interfering with the free market because “something has to be done.” The gov’t possibly buying stock in companies. That works for you.
Mr_Magoo on October 10, 2008 at 11:51 AM
Obama’s taxes = Wall Street doom
indythinker on October 10, 2008 at 11:51 AM
Well, maybe this is what it will take to debunk leftish/socialist philosophies once and for all: a decades long decline followed by a rejection of this garbage on some glorious day far into the future. The fall of the Soviet Union wasn’t enough because it wasn’t “proof” of anything in the minds of the left.
The bad news is that Americans will need to physically experience the trappings of true socialism (like Eastern Europeans, etc) in order to cast them aside once and for all.
Waterboy on October 10, 2008 at 11:51 AM
You probobly already know, but the price of gas is only loosely tied to the price of oil. Lots of fixed costs (transport and taxes) plus the costs of refining. After Ike refining capacity in the U.S. was severely reduced, so even though the price of oil fell the price of gas remained high (some places in the Southeast actually had fuel shortages. Also the price of oil isn’t falling because of increased supply. It’s dropping because of the possibility of a global recession, which means less demand. Plus, when the price of oil more than trippled the price of gas didn’t, so you can’t complain when gas prices don’t drop by a similar percentage either.
I’m tired of hearing O’Reilly rail about how ‘big oil’ is ripping us off. As much as like the guy overall, he is amazingly clueless on economic issues.
BadgerHawk on October 10, 2008 at 11:52 AM
I’ll say one thing, I would rather have dollars now than Euros.
MB4 on October 10, 2008 at 11:55 AM
Yeah, but what I’d really like are some Ameros. Mmmmmm, ameros.
BadgerHawk on October 10, 2008 at 11:56 AM
Which is exactly why failed businesses must be dismembered and the various parts dispersed out into the economy. All those people losing their jobs take with them the hard lessons learned from the school of hard knocks. That makes the overall economy stronger not weaker.
Which is why the government stepping in to rescue failed business is exactly the wrong thing to do.
It would be just like giving money to a drug addict, it enables them to continue their addiction. It’s not ‘mean’, it is ‘tough love’.
rockhauler on October 10, 2008 at 11:56 AM
The irony is that the clueless Obamaniacs are secretly (or not-so-secretly) cheering this on. Oh well, once thier parents loose thier jobs and they have to drop out of 13th century French shoelace styles class and get a job (if they can) at Arby’s, maybe they’ll grab a clue. Not bloody likely of course.
Maybe it’s a good thing that we might have a Dem president presiding over a veto-proof senate for the next few years. No white-washing of history to blame this on Bush43 will work circa 2011 with unemployment stubbornly at 11% and a “new and fair” 60% mariginal tax rate.
Choke on it Dems…she’s all yours.
Waterboy on October 10, 2008 at 11:57 AM
I see it this way…much of the countries wealth is simply in paper. The home one was being taxed on at $300K is now capable of being sold at $200K…that means $100K in paper value is gone, really gone, not to be seen again. It did not go to someone else, it simply went. Stock is worse as folk are taking paper with a previous paper value, or a purchase price of one figure and selling it for MUCH less. In that case any paper loss is gone forever. The owner migh as well have simply burnt that difference in his fireplace this winter.
That is what hapened to the stacks of cash. It didn’t mve from ne person to anoter but from a piece of paper to the ether of unmet expectations.
JIMV on October 10, 2008 at 11:58 AM
Obama is looking at a landslide
MB4 on October 10, 2008 at 11:58 AM
Update: Much-needed optimism from Hugh Hewitt. I’m assuming that the bottom is approaching and that big investors are ready to go bargain hunting, but given that the underlying problem is with liquidity, who’s willing to sink cash back in?
I heard words of hope today, paraphrased: You know, about 12 more days of this and the Dow will be at 0. So, cheer up, we’ve almost found the bottom and it’s upupup from there!
Yes, hyperbole.
jrl on October 10, 2008 at 12:01 PM
IMO, posting general encouragement and information is fine. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to be posting these types of comments. I know Allah posted this thread so we could all vent and comfort each other but we should be careful what we say here. Someone could get hurt – including me.
If you are that great a stock investor go to a buiness blog and give advice.
IMO
Mr_Magoo on October 10, 2008 at 12:02 PM
And this one, too.
Mr_Magoo on October 10, 2008 at 12:03 PM
O’Reilly’s problem is that his ego has outgrown his knowledge of the issues. He needs to LISTEN to his guests sometimes–like Neil Cavuto on economic issues, and Laura Ingraham on political issues from a conservative point of view. Laura was trying to make some excellent points on his show last night, but O’Reilly kept interrupting her with his own opinions, and wasted too much time.
Steve Z on October 10, 2008 at 12:03 PM
Oh come on Mr_Magoo. We’re all adults, and everyone is cabable of making thier own decisions, whether based on thier broker, a comment on a thread, etc. We need to stop this “everyone’s a baby” mentality and must be protected from thier own free will.
Waterboy on October 10, 2008 at 12:04 PM
But but but. Ayers!
I hate McCain.
lorien1973 on October 10, 2008 at 12:05 PM
Yup. There are a lot of other factors. I tried to explain this to a friend of mine recently, but he’s still convinced the oil companies are out to screw us.
Tom Blogical on October 10, 2008 at 12:05 PM
Both of you are completely correct. You can almost count the days until it’s over for him. I know what you mean about finding things about him to like, but his negatives are becoming disruptive and boorish. The other day I thought of Morton Downey Jr. when I saw him.
JiangxiDad on October 10, 2008 at 12:06 PM
Nope – only the first, after the second one was passed over my objections.
Vashta.Nerada on October 10, 2008 at 12:06 PM
Anybody think there is a lot of this going on right now?
Tom Blogical on October 10, 2008 at 12:07 PM
I’m a 25 yr old law student so I’m thinking this is a marvellous time to get involved and I don’t plan on selling those stocks like Apple or Microsoft or anything else for a long while. Could be an amazing coup for me because sooner or later this ‘fear’ will break.
Defector01 on October 10, 2008 at 12:07 PM
Oh no, DRUDGE has a siren!!!!!!!!!
Waterboy on October 10, 2008 at 12:08 PM
THE FEAR OF AN OBAMAO PRESIDENCY.
RUSH IS SAYING WHAT I POSTED 15 MINUTES AGO.
roninacreage on October 10, 2008 at 12:09 PM
LOL. The economy is political. And yours, or anyone else’s political comments are are so great that they should be posted here?
JiangxiDad on October 10, 2008 at 12:10 PM
Rush:
Italian pres. Silvio Berliskony(phonetic sp) wants to shut down the world financial markets while they re-write the rules.
NightmareOnKStreet on October 10, 2008 at 12:11 PM
I’m hanging on to the few stocks I hold, and as of right now I’m telling myself I’ve got ice running through my veins, so I’ll go down with the ship. At the same time, I’m tempted to buy more at bargain basement prices… I’ve got an itchy mouse clicking finger here…
RightWinged on October 10, 2008 at 12:11 PM
Why are you talking economics on a political blog? What are your qualifications to assess the bailout?
JiangxiDad on October 10, 2008 at 12:11 PM
New World Order taking place?
I’d say the Alex Jones loons are going nuts about right now
jp on October 10, 2008 at 12:13 PM
Maybe what I’m saying is no one here really knows where the bottom is and we should be careful what we say – even generally about buying and selling. You are all sounding very authoritative and someone could be swayed to make a mistake.
But if you don’t want to take responsibility for your words, have at it.
Mr_Magoo on October 10, 2008 at 12:14 PM
If the world markets are closed, it will happen on Monday after the weekend meeting of world folk and Bush (Our markets are alread closed on Monday). I would suspect this will drive a lot of sell orders late today as folk tr to get fluid before the governments screw things up worse.
JIMV on October 10, 2008 at 12:14 PM
It’s a Wall St. thread. Are you the thread police?
roninacreage on October 10, 2008 at 12:15 PM
Caveat emptor
Vashta.Nerada on October 10, 2008 at 12:15 PM
I’m posting my opinions on the market so I can come back later and brag that I told everyone to invest when the Dow was at 8200/8300!
You think that I would actually put my money in stocks? Nope, there are better ways if you are a long term investor but I still think now is a good time to buy equities but do it wisely.
Vince on October 10, 2008 at 12:15 PM
I’m giving my opinion. I’m not giving advice. There’s a difference.
Mr_Magoo on October 10, 2008 at 12:15 PM
Like we want to take financial advice from Berlusconi – Duuuuude, seriously! My butt-wipe has more value than the Lira, and you want them to work on fixing it? /
SkinnerVic on October 10, 2008 at 12:15 PM
If they get further involved, I suspect the DOW will drop to at least 7000. Folk are saying pretty loudly that they do not trust government to fix anything.
JIMV on October 10, 2008 at 12:15 PM
The following, in any context, have and will never be good for humankind:
New;
World; and
Order
Waterboy on October 10, 2008 at 12:16 PM
Vote McCain.
JiangxiDad on October 10, 2008 at 12:17 PM
Where did you get my comment alerting folks to check out Drudge that I advocated any view one way or the other?
Waterboy on October 10, 2008 at 12:17 PM
was a response. read back.
JiangxiDad on October 10, 2008 at 12:18 PM
I see. I must have missed the fine print in your posts.
I repeat myself. If you’re all ok with it, have at it.
Mr_Magoo on October 10, 2008 at 12:18 PM
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
- Groucho
MB4 on October 10, 2008 at 12:19 PM
BTW, am I the only one who recognizes that investors aren’t buying back in because it looks likely that B. Hussein Obama will be the next president, and we know he has promised to jack up capital gains tax. That’s the one thing keeping me from buying at these bargain basement prices (though I still might risk it).
Again, Obama promises to raise capital gains taxes by nearly double. What makes anyone think that the big investors are going to get back in before the election is over?
RightWinged on October 10, 2008 at 12:19 PM
Yeah right. We’re all here to get financial advice. You needs ta relaxezvous Mr_Magoo. Does that sound “authoritative” enough for you?
..just kidding…I know what you’re trying to say ;)
Waterboy on October 10, 2008 at 12:20 PM
We dispute your premise. So we can’t have at it. It’s an anonymous internet thread about the economy. If you need financial advice, hire an advisor. Good luck.
JiangxiDad on October 10, 2008 at 12:20 PM
My advise is, buy low sell high. Works every time.
MB4 on October 10, 2008 at 12:21 PM
I’m sorry – I wasn’t saying you advocated that position. I was making a comment on the sheer ludicrious nature of having an Italian PM rewrite financial rules…
SkinnerVic on October 10, 2008 at 12:21 PM
Hugh Hewitt discussed this yesterday on his radio show. Could very well be making things worse.
Mr_Magoo on October 10, 2008 at 12:22 PM
I’m not putting a gun to anyone’s head.
Vashta.Nerada on October 10, 2008 at 12:22 PM
SkinnerVic: You just wanted to get that Lira/buttwipe comment in. It was funny!
Vince on October 10, 2008 at 12:22 PM
If you had purchased $1000 of Delta Airlines stock one year ago, you would have $49 today. If you had purchased $1000 of AIG stock one year ago, you would have $33 today. If you had purchased $1000 of Lehman Brothers stock one year ago, you will have $0 today. However, if you had purchased $1000 worth of beer one year ago, drank all the beer, then turned in the aluminum cans for recycling, you would have received $214 today at redemption. Based on the above, the best current investment plan is to drink heavily & recycle. It is called the 401-KEG Plan.
- Source
MB4 on October 10, 2008 at 12:23 PM
Its the failure of the whole house of cards.
The Subprime mess was a symptom of out of control Banks creating “vehicles” for economic gain. These were never government approved, nor was their any oversight.
Fact is that most of us don’t know how the financial system works… I didn’t until this latest mess… please read this, and pay attention to the charts at the bottom which show M2 and M3 money (fake, bank created capital).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking
Financial institutions were allowed to run wild and create a situation where THEY had 9 Times as much non government created capital in the system, as government created capital.
Our government let us down by NOT following the Constitution, which clearly states ONLY the Federal Gov can coin (create) money.
They were essentialy all playing poker with Markers, and you only had to do a 10% buy in to play… game was fine and fun until someone decided big to cash out (subprime mess)… and now everyone is afraid to play, because they see its a stupid game…
Romeo13 on October 10, 2008 at 12:24 PM
yeah, sounds weird, but Berlosconi is a very successful businessman, and yesterday the Italians orchestrated a partial gov’t rescue of their banks by taking preferred shares in the bank without voting rights. Yesterday this was discussed on the financial news and received good marks, and was seen as a model of how we might do it here with Citi or others.
JiangxiDad on October 10, 2008 at 12:24 PM
MB4: someone emailed that to me the other day and it was the best economic comment of the day! May just be #1 again today!
Vince on October 10, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Unless you were Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, in which case you only had to keep 2.5% reserve.
Vashta.Nerada on October 10, 2008 at 12:26 PM
Boy, I’m sure glad we had the bailout!
William Teach on October 10, 2008 at 12:27 PM
This is going to be such an enjoyable buyers market….I’m looking forward to going shopping.
LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 12:27 PM
Limey
Man I’m already enjoying some buying, but gotta do your research. Some companies are tanking for real reasons, not just panic of the market.
Still I found some good deals
Defector01 on October 10, 2008 at 12:29 PM
Here it comes…. we’ve had the discussion about bank consolidation by the Fed… and I couldn’t figure out why…
But yesterday, an analyst on Fox Business was talking about the upcoming G8 meeting, and that one thing on the table would be a WORLD bank, on the model of the US Fed Res Bank.
Money is power, and if a country does not control its own banks, it is not a sovereign nation.
World Order, here we come. Makes the North American Union and the Amero look like chump change.
Romeo13 on October 10, 2008 at 12:29 PM
I would like to believe that some of these market falls are due to the fact that Obama may be the president…though…
How do you find out if that is the case or not?
LordMaximus on October 10, 2008 at 12:30 PM
FDR milked the depresion that he had created for more than a decade.
The Democrats will just keep telling us that the damage that Bush caused was sooooo much worse than they had imagined. That’s why it’s taking so long to recover from it. With new hate speech laws and a new and stronger “Fairness Doctrine”, nobody will be permitted to disagree with this view publicly.
MarkTheGreat on October 10, 2008 at 12:31 PM
I sent a “thank you” note to my Congressman yesterday letting him know just how much I appreciated Congress jumping on the bail out bandwagon so the market wouldn’t tank.
highhopes on October 10, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Even if the truth did get out, the Democrats are sure to appoint judges that throw out all forms of voter identification and any other law that will make it difficult to vote fraudulently. Which ensures that the Democrats will continue to win elections regardless of how the people actually vote.
MarkTheGreat on October 10, 2008 at 12:32 PM
It’s like the old joke:
In heaven, the police are British, the Germans are the mechanics and the cooks are French.
In hell, the police are German, the British are the cooks and the French are the mechanics
Waterboy on October 10, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Just go to any financial quotes page – the proof is right there.
Vashta.Nerada on October 10, 2008 at 12:34 PM
I truley believ that if Obama wins and the Democrats pick up as many seats as many people are inticipating, 2008 will be the last fair and open election we have in this country.
MarkTheGreat on October 10, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Bob Beckel just said Obama is standing on the sidelines through this crisis. That doesn’t show leadership. I listened to him give a speech calling for people to remain calm. The irony is that his supporters and surrogates are bumping up every article that promotes panic. The Dems are positively giddy with joy that the world’s financial markets are spiraling downward. They WANT panic. They love panic.
Connie on October 10, 2008 at 12:34 PM
The “irony” is that without the bailout [that is if it had been rejected by congress], stocks could hardly have gone down any more than they have, maybe well less, but you just know that those who voted for the bailout would be saying to those who voted against it, “Now look what you did!”.
MB4 on October 10, 2008 at 12:34 PM
I don’t know what to make of this weekend’s meetings. It could settle us, or ruin us.
JiangxiDad on October 10, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Yeah, I feel the same way…like the 1919 Paris Conference: just putting off the hard decisions for what will only be a temporary solution.
Waterboy on October 10, 2008 at 12:37 PM
It seems to me the bailout is directed primarily at the credit markets, not the stock market. The stock market would likely have fallen in any case, but if the credit markets can be normalized, the stock market can recover, and businesses can keep producing and employing. At least that’s the theory as I see it.
JiangxiDad on October 10, 2008 at 12:37 PM
But isn’t this a gov’t based manipulation of stock prices? What about the banks that do not get a govt investment? Doesn’t seem fair to them and messes with the incentives built into free enterprise. And what’s next. Auto industry? Aren’t these socialistic practises?
Mr_Magoo on October 10, 2008 at 12:37 PM
Playing politics with our lives. Nothing new, just affecting a lot more people than normal.
BadgerHawk on October 10, 2008 at 12:38 PM
You know what? This whole financial mess has been caused by Global Warming.
- Al Gore
MB4 on October 10, 2008 at 12:39 PM
I think more like along the lines of Bretton Woods, but possibly the Congress of Vienna, with some new socialist Metternich.
JiangxiDad on October 10, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Yeah, this is a textbook definition of “Damned if you do, damned if you don’t”.
Anyone see Bush on TV earlier…that man looked like he was beaten up in a back alley just minutes before.
Waterboy on October 10, 2008 at 12:40 PM
I’m sure advisors have been communicating throughout this crises… they only pull out the big boys when they are either trying to show they are doing somthing… or they are ready to announce somthing big…
Could be the former, but I bet its the later. They tried to get control of the worlds economy through Cap and Trade due to Global Warmin, but they won’t be able to once people wake up to the fact that Global warming is a crock… as its going to be a COLD winter (gonna snow here in Denver today).
So, they needed somthing else.
Romeo13 on October 10, 2008 at 12:40 PM
FDR wasn’t even in office when the Depression started. If any president “created” the Depression it was Coolidge (1923-29). Hoover was in office for less than a year when the market crashed
I found this bit from Hoover’s official bio interesting because it echoes many of the things being done in 2008:
After capably serving as Secretary of Commerce under Presidents Harding and Coolidge, Hoover became the Republican Presidential nominee in 1928. He said then: “We in America today are nearer to the final triumph over poverty than ever before in the history of any land.” His election seemed to ensure prosperity. Yet within months the stock market crashed, and the Nation spiraled downward into depression.
After the crash Hoover announced that while he would keep the Federal budget balanced, he would cut taxes and expand public works spending.
In 1931 repercussions from Europe deepened the crisis, even though the President presented to Congress a program asking for creation of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation to aid business, additional help for farmers facing mortgage foreclosures, banking reform, a loan to states for feeding the unemployed, expansion of public works, and drastic governmental economy.
At the same time he reiterated his view that while people must not suffer from hunger and cold, caring for them must be primarily a local and voluntary responsibility.
His opponents in Congress, who he felt were sabotaging his program for their own political gain, unfairly painted him as a callous and cruel President. Hoover became the scapegoat for the depression and was badly defeated in 1932. In the 1930’s he became a powerful critic of the New Deal, warning against tendencies toward statism.
highhopes on October 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Touche
Vashta.Nerada on October 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Agreed. Caveat Emptor and all that. I’m no guru, but I know my fundamentals and always make money…..not bajillions, but enough to justify my efforts ;)
And if I screw up (which I have done many times) I take my losses like a man, fess up to my wife about what a pillock I am, then I Suck. It. Up, roll with those punches, learn from my mistakes and try harder to succeed.
No whining.
LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Is it possible for a President to quit without giving notice? Cheney’s probably always wanted to be President-for-a-Day
Mr_Magoo on October 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM
My theory is if Tsar Paulson and Commissar Bernanke and the House of Lords called congress tries enough wild blind shots sooner or later, if we don’t go totally broke in the meantime, they will eventually hit something.
MB4 on October 10, 2008 at 12:42 PM
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