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Connecticut Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage

posted at 2:05 pm on October 10, 2008 by Allahpundit
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A done deal, and given Connecticut’s deep blue electorate, one not likely to be overridden by amendment.

Probably good for McCain, though.

The Supreme Court released its historic ruling at 11:30 a.m. Citing the equal protection clause of the state constitution, the justices ruled that civil unions were discriminatory and that the state’s “understanding of marriage must yield to a more contemporary appreciation of the rights entitled to constitutional protection.”…

In a statement released minutes after the decision was announced, Gov. M. Jodi Rell said she disagreed with it, but uphold it. She said she was proud to sign the state’s civil unions law in 2005, the first in the nation enacted without a court mandate, and thought it was “equitable and just.”

“The Supreme Court has spoken,” Rell said. “I do not believe their voice reflects the majority of the people of Connecticut. However, I am also firmly convinced that attempts to reverse this decision — either legislatively or by amending the state Constitution — will not meet with success. I will therefore abide by the ruling.”…

The opposition will now turn its sights to the November election, when voters will be asked whether the state should convene a constitutional convention. “Connecticut voters will have one opportunity on Nov. 4 to reassert their right to self government. We must vote yes.”

Here’s the opinion. Skip ahead to page 21 for the crux of it, declaring gays a “quasi-suspect class” for purposes of the state’s equal protection jurisprudence. What “class” you are pretty much determines as a rule whether you can be discriminated against by law; if you belong to a class that’s “suspect,” i.e. historically powerless and persecuted, then the legislature has virtually no leeway against you. The Connecticut Supremes decided they couldn’t call gays a fully “suspect” class because the U.S. Supreme Court hasn’t declared them that (yet), so they opted for “quasi-suspect” based on four factors: (1) historic discrimination, (2) whether sexual orientation is related to one’s ability to contribute to society (this is here to give the state extra power to regulate the disabled), (3) immutability of sexual orientation, i.e. is it a choice or is it inborn and thus unchangeable, and (4) whether gays lack political power, which starts on page 28 and is the most interesting section of the four.

All in all, the analysis is similar to the California Supreme Court’s, which also used an equal protection argument to strike down their state’s marriage statute. The fatal blow for gay marriage opponents is the fact that the state already allows civil unions for gay couples; I think laypeople look at that and assume that that means the state, having acted in good faith, will be given the benefit of the doubt when gays inevitably sue for full marriage rights, but as I’ve tried to explain before, it doesn’t work that way. To discriminate by law, you need a good reason. Admitting that gays should be entitled to all the same rights as married couples but not the label of “marriage” itself forces the court to conclude that the distinction is purely semantic, and semantics simply ain’t good enough as a “good reason.” From page 62:

Although we acknowledge that many legislators and many of their constituents hold strong personal convictions with respect to preserving the traditional concept of marriage as a heterosexual institution, such beliefs, no matter how deeply held, do not constitute the exceedingly persuasive justification required to sustain a statute that discriminates on the basis of a quasi-suspect classification. ‘‘That civil marriage has traditionally excluded same-sex couples—i.e., that the ‘historic
and cultural understanding of marriage’ has been between a man and a woman—cannot in itself provide a [sufficient] basis for the challenged exclusion. To say that the discrimination is ‘traditional’ is to say only that the discrimination has existed for a long time. A classification, however, cannot be maintained merely ‘for its own sake’ [Romer v. Evans, supra, 517 U.S. 635]. Instead, the classification ([that is], the exclusion of gay [persons] from civil marriage) must advance a state interest that is separate from the classification itself [see id., 633, 635]. Because the ‘tradition’ of excluding gay [persons] from civil marriage is no different from the classification itself, the exclusion cannot be justified on the basis of ‘history.’ Indeed, the justification of ‘tradition’ does not explain the classification; it merely repeats it. Simply put, a history or tradition of discrimination—no matter how entrenched—does not make the discrimination constitutional . . . .’’ (Citation omitted.) Hernandez v. Robles, supra, 7 N.Y.3d 395 (Kaye, C. J., dissenting)…

It is only because the state has not advanced a sufficiently persuasive justification for denying same sex couples the right to marry that the traditional definition of marriage necessarily must be expanded to include such couples. If the defendants were able to demonstrate sufficient cause to deny same sex couples the right to marry, then we would reject the plaintiffs’ claim and honor the state’s desire to preserve the institution of marriage as a union between a man and a woman. In the absence of such a showing, however, we cannot refuse to follow settled equal protection jurisprudence merely because doing so will result in a change in the definition of marriage.

Exit question: Time to start talking about Obama’s judicial appointments?


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A gay person is a person who feels sexually attracted to the person of the same sex. The sex act itself is immaterial.

WRONG! You’ve just described homosexuality. Homosexuals are embarrassed to be called exactly what they are, so they appropriated a word to try and “sugar coat” the self destructive, grotesque lifestyle they lead.

I decide I hate the word “war”. It just sounds bad to me, so I’m going to change it. From now on, I’ll call war “picnic”. It’s the same stupid thing as calling homosexuals gay.

AubieJon on October 10, 2008 at 4:52 PM

progressoverpeace on October 10, 2008 at 4:50 PM

We should be working hardest towards privatizing the education system rather than exhausting ourselves with arguments over which curricula are offered.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:52 PM

Missionary means I actually have to LOOK at her. Sheesh. Thanks a lot, Capt. Killbuzz Kinsey.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 4:47 PM

You can always recycle your grocery bags.

yes, but given that the homosexual lobby is overturning marriage laws, why do you think NAMBLA wouldn’t be successful at overturning age of consent laws??

right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:47 PM

Because NAMBLA is about as effective as the angry inbred Phelps church at actually getting anything done and because they’ve been trying to for quite some time now. Gay marriage really shouldn’t make that any easier for them.

Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 4:53 PM

This is the heart of my problem with Christianity (and Christianity’s looming existential crisis): all morality is premised on an antiquated understanding of human behavior. Will Christianity continue to adapt as we learn more about what it means to be human? Can Christianity even countenance learning in the social sciences? Christianity dogmatically restrains us from finally solving the problems of living with each other.

RightOFLeft on October 10, 2008 at 4:49 PM

speaking of dogmatism, this is laughable. right and wrong do not change, sorry. as far as living with each other…why don’t you go talk to your islamic friends about that?

right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:53 PM

What? Since when is sodomy considered doing it “doggy style”? Where in the Bible does it tell you what position to use when engaging in vaginal sex?

Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 4:31 PM

Easy honey, just an example of “non-sodomy”, I guess I could have use any other orifice? I was keeping it simple, I didn’t know there were voyeurs around…
But I will say it tells you who makes the coffee in the morning…there is a whole book dedicated to it…He Brews…

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:53 PM

Because NAMBLA is about as effective as the angry inbred Phelps church at actually getting anything done and because they’ve been trying to for quite some time now. Gay marriage really shouldn’t make that any easier for them.

Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 4:53 PM

right, they’re just a minorty of the population..just like homosexuals…they won’t have any influence…sure.

right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:54 PM

BKennedy on October 10, 2008 at 4:51 PM

Your understanding of the 9th amendment is laughable.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:54 PM

No boston steamer, no dirty sanchez, no golden showers? – my repertoire is farked. – LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:49 PM

O man…I forgot the dirty sanchez. Now THAT brings back memories. Alas, no. No dirty sanchez. No monkey grapple. No more how’s-your-father.No more jolly roger.

Our resident Elmer Gantry has decreed that it is all-missionary, all the time. *sigh*

Hey Limey, you’re from the Mother Country, right? If so, is it better for shagging over there? I mean, are the birds randy? And have they ever met sanchez?

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 4:54 PM

So while the sin of sodomy, or homosexuality also refers to fornication, there can be no mistake what the phrase “sin of Sodom” is referring to: (anal sex) empasis added

apacalyps on October 10, 2008 at 3:45 PM

Fornication is not limited to homosexual sex, smart guy. It’s heterosexual sex as well.

MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM

Re-read what I said. In biblical usage, “fornication” can mean any sexual contact outside monogamous marriage. You’re just reiterating my point — smart guy.

apacalyps on October 10, 2008 at 4:54 PM

I invite you to bring your argument to court at your own dime and be prepared to pay the opposition’s court costs when you lose. In other words, I call this specious bull-crap.

Viscount_Bolingbroke on October 10, 2008 at 4:48 PM

I am gay! I cannot prove that I am gay, but you breeders have persecuted my kind for centuries. I demand to have my rights recognized, and if they are not, you are all homophobes!

And Welcome to Connecticut.

BKennedy on October 10, 2008 at 4:54 PM

I am a Trubdublian! I cannot prove I am a Trubdublian, but know that my people have been persecuted by you Humanians for centuries. I demand to have my rights recognized, and if they are not, you are all Trubdubphobes!

BKennedy on October 10, 2008 at 4:43 PM

I invite you to bring your argument to court at your own dime and be prepared to pay the opposition’s court costs when you lose. In other words, I call this specious bull-crap.

Viscount_Bolingbroke on October 10, 2008 at 4:48 PM

According to the court’s ruling we have no choice but to expand the definition of traditional marriage to include Trubdublians:

It is only because the state has not advanced a sufficiently persuasive justification for denying same sex couples the right to marry that the traditional definition of marriage necessarily must be expanded to include such couples.

neuquenguy on October 10, 2008 at 4:54 PM

No problem with them “marrying”, just don’t call it a marriage. Marriage by definition is between a man and a woman.
Words mean something, and changing just changing the meaning of a word because it is PC, is a path that I don’t think we want to go down.
And just to set the record straight, “tyranny of the majority” is hardly an accurate (tho dramatic I must say) description. It take time to re-invent social laws, and seeing as this law has been around culturally for a few thousand years, hardly calls it into “tyranny”, when no one was really harmed until the U.S. and it’s tax and owner ship laws were created.
Please do not embarrass yourself with the “slaves were legal at one time” argument.

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:47 PM

First, marriage is a legal term as well as a social one. I only care about the legal one. You seem to care more about the social one. I have no problem with that. I only have a problem with legal rights being denied certain couples because they don’t fit with an arbitrary social definition.

Second, while slavery is a good parallel, women being granted suffrage is just as good. For a long time it was accepted by the (male) majority (and even the female one) that women weren’t mentally or physically able to vote. They just weren’t. A vocal minority challenged that perception and won. Dittos for segregation. So yes, this *is* part of a long tradition of challenging the majority when it seeks to impose its tyranny on a minority.

Viscount_Bolingbroke on October 10, 2008 at 4:55 PM

Would we agree that sexual arousal is often subconscious and unlearned? You seem to be drawing a distinction between arousal (as subconscious) and the gender that stimulates that arousal (as learned through reinforcement). I’d disagree with that. Most men can constrain their attraction to just their wife–it takes discipline (like hitting a golf ball). However, most men require no discipline in refraining in attraction to other men. Halle Berry walking by would make the eye wander, but not some dude.

dedalus on October 10, 2008 at 4:41 PM

I’m saying that what images, sensations, and ideas arouse you is learned in the same manner that you learn any coordinated task. You have not tried to learn to be aroused by men, so you are not. Ideally (in some sense), you would limit your new learning in the area to how your wife changes, but you would still be left with all that you had learned before devoting yourself to her–thus the wandering eyes toward Holly Berry. Those less attached and more adventurous can branch out and learn new sources of arousal.

And gender need not have anything to do with it. There is nothing inherently feminine in make-up, dresses, or perfumes, yet I imagine a number of me find those attractive in and of themselves because they have learned to associate them with women. So much so, that many men are aroused by images of what, unbeknown to them, are in fact men in drag. There is nothing feminine about a man in drag, he has simply appropriated the trappings we associate with women.

Count to 10 on October 10, 2008 at 4:56 PM

right, they’re just a minorty of the population..just like homosexuals…they won’t have any influence…sure.

right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:54 PM

By the time NAMBLA is taken seriously and has influence, age of consent laws won’t be an issue.

Easy honey, just an example of “non-sodomy”

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:53 PM

Sorry. I just thought you meant nothing but missionary.

Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 4:56 PM

So you’re cold, creamy and filling?

Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 4:46 PM

Not only that, but during happy hour, you get unlimited refills.

MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 4:56 PM

Failing to legalize homosexual marriage — that is denying the right of some people to marry the partner of their choice – is by definition tyranny of the majority. The next step is to make the determination whether denying this small group of people the right to marry helps the common good and is thus worth withholding marriage rights. You argue that to allow gays to marry would overturn a basic building block of society.

How? Would straight people stop marrying?

Yes.

Would straight people stop having sex/children?

The decline in marriage would lead to less procreation.

If you want to point fingers at what is a bigger threat to the institution of marriage, how about divorce?

I specifically agreed with a commenter upthread that no-fault divorce was a precursor to this madness.

With a divorce rate around 50%, straight people are threatening the basic building block of society more than gay people ever could.

Homosexual marriage would be a further dismantling of a traditional, moral society. Its not either/or in my opinion.

aengus on October 10, 2008 at 4:56 PM

So many unanswered remarks, but I have to run.

“But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Matthew 24:37

apacalyps on October 10, 2008 at 4:57 PM

This is the heart of my problem with Christianity (and Christianity’s looming existential crisis): all morality is premised on an antiquated understanding of human behavior. Will Christianity continue to adapt as we learn more about what it means to be human? Can Christianity even countenance learning in the social sciences? Christianity dogmatically restrains us from finally solving the problems of living with each other.

RightOFLeft on October 10, 2008 at 4:49 PM

You are entitled to you own paradigm, no matter how way out of perspective it truly is. Christianity has been subject to existential crisis since it was first introduced in Jerusalem. The beauty of the truth it presents is not affected by crisis. How do you think it has survived after being attacked and misrepresented as in most of these posts by greater minds and greater personal loss?

Human behavior is the same in the Old Testament as it is today just as we have stopped evolving as a species. Christianity is not meant to “evolve” down to human level. It is only the human with the grace of God that can ever understand it or rise to its occasion.

Hening on October 10, 2008 at 4:57 PM

Now it may be that Christianity and modernity are fundamentally incompatible and Christians will not enjoy the elevated status in the West that they have for over a thousand years. However Christians cannot, will not change so let the modern, enlightened secular state deal with them as it will.

aengus on October 10, 2008 at 4:41 PM

Christians have been changing since the beginning. If you took what you would consider a faithful Christian and put him in Rome a few years after Jesus died, no one would even recognize his beliefs as Christian.

-Conservapedia is reliably fundamentalist in its outlook

RightOFLeft on October 10, 2008 at 4:57 PM

Missionary means I actually have to LOOK at her. Sheesh. Thanks a lot, Capt. Killbuzz Kinsey.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 4:47 PM

You are allowed coyote style…(please ask)

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:57 PM

Hey Limey, you’re from the Mother Country, right? If so, is it better for shagging over there? I mean, are the birds randy? And have they ever met sanchez?

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 4:54 PM

LOL American men have historically been fine conquerors of british totty. Go forth and roger mightily.

I’m content over here with my southern belle ;)

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:57 PM

We should be working hardest towards privatizing the education system rather than exhausting ourselves with arguments over which curricula are offered.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:52 PM

Hear, hear.

But I think that the public schools will not be able to compete against the internet, at some point. The price of education should be dropping like a rock, given technology, and that will come soon. Everyone has every piece of information they need at their fingertips and it’s just about free. The world has to go this way. It’s too cheap and too easy.

progressoverpeace on October 10, 2008 at 4:58 PM

Make sure she hasn’t eaten corn for a few days. So I’m told. – LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:24 PM

Great scott, man. Where are your manners and civility? Have you not heard of enemas? ALWAYS be sure the loading dock is clear of debris before accepting a delivery.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 4:58 PM

That’s a problem for Christianity. I always wonder why Christians are so obsessed with homosexuality…It’s hardly the only sin proscribed in the bible. I think it’s because, at some level, Christians know how unjust it is to suppose that God made some people to be sinners.

…actually, it isn’t a problem for Christianity. As I’ve said, it’s pretty well settled. It’s a sin.

…and, you’re quite right, although you’re showing your slip when you use a word like “obsessed”. Homosexuality is quite the popular sin nowadays…just as transubstantiation captured the attention in the 16th Century…it was a popular topic of discussion.

…but “obsessed”? No. Just one more hole in the dike…and I really didn’t mean that as a straight line….

The issue undermines the moral authority of the entire bible. If Christianity is going to survive the next 100 years, there’s going to have to be some kind of modern synthesis that can admit modern facts.

RightOFLeft on October 10, 2008 at 4:19 PM

…the “moral authority” of Christianity has nothing to do with anything like its “relevance” to modern man and that sort of pap. That assumes that man is the center of Christianity, just as man holds that he’s the center all other things…it’s arrogance and ignorance of Creation in the extreme.

…Francis Schaeffer, a late and noted theologian, once told a class of prospective pastors all afire to persuade people from sin, that they shouldn’t teach their flocks that Christianity was useful (common still today…what can Jesus do for you, that sort of thing), but that it was true.

…it’s like that tree falling in the forest. Man isn’t the be-all/do-all/end-all of Creation…if the bloody tree falls down, yes, it makes a bloody noise…even if some poxy person isn’t there to hear it. The laws of physics aren’t suspended just because 1000lbs of wood hit the forest floor unobserved.

…and don’t bother with words like “synthesis”, especially when you mean “compromise”.

…Christianity is a free-standing truth. It doesn’t need man’s puny understanding to buttress it.

Birds flew for millenia before men knew how they did it. Same goes for seeds germinating, clouds forming and raining, and the stars twinkling, although men observed it sweating in the fields for thousands of years dumbly.

Man might have pains admitting it, but there’s a lot of stuff we haven’t yet figured out which works perfectly well both unobserved and unexplained.

Now…the Almighty has deigned to reveal a bit of himself in history, and we’ve been blessed enough to have it all in one place for, oh, the last 1000 years or so (in English for going on 500 years), a unique thing among man’s history of invented deities.

He hasn’t chosen to tell us why he made a mammal that lays eggs or why water only flows downhill…and he hasn’t gone into too many specifics about sexual gynmastics. The Bible isn’t a marriage manual.

But, he has told us how we, as pretty much ignorant, selfish, self-centered, indeed self-celebratory, willful, mean, brutish and gullible humans can get themselves right with a God whom any one of us might’ve advised to start over again after Adam’s episode with the apple.

As arch and serious as that “if Christianity is going to survive” business is, it’s lasted through Nero, Domitian, Arius, Marcion, Diocletian, the Cathars, both Protestant and Catholic pyromaniacs, and Charles Grandison Finney…I think that it’ll survive homosexual marriage…and, although it’s in a rough patch with mega-churches, TV pastors, and scandals galore, as well as people deciding to reinvent the wheel each generation…I don’t see any problems with it lasting until the appointed rendezvous with the Bible’s main player….

…it may have trouble surviving Joel Osteen and Rick Warren, but I have faith that these two shall pass….

…no…what I wonder about is if the republic will survive the subversion of the legal process to gratify the sins of a rather selfish minority, whose track record proves that there’s more of the Borgias than the angels in their thinking….

Puritan1648 on October 10, 2008 at 4:58 PM

all morality is premised on an antiquated understanding of human behavior. Will Christianity continue to adapt as we learn more about what it means to be human? Can Christianity even countenance learning in the social sciences? Christianity dogmatically restrains us from finally solving the problems of living with each other.

RightOFLeft on October 10, 2008 at 4:49 PM

The Golden Rule, yeah, how foolish.

We need a new, more modern social theory to figure out how to live with each other, because all old things suck.

Hey, I know! Let’s try Socialism and Secular Humanism!

pseudonominus on October 10, 2008 at 4:58 PM

You are allowed coyote style…(please ask)

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:57 PM

In the back of a truck doing 90 across a desert in the middle of the night?

Kinky.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:58 PM

Not only that, but during happy hour, you get unlimited refills.

MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 4:56 PM

Only one hour?

Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 4:59 PM

Your understanding of the 9th amendment is laughable.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:54 PM

Funny I didn’t see a counterargument in there, just a dismissal.

Don’t tell me we’re about to go into “emanations and penumbras” territory…

BKennedy on October 10, 2008 at 4:59 PM

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 4:58 PM

I even did it with my hat and socks on once.

I’m such a rebel.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:59 PM

Sorry. I just thought you meant nothing but missionary.

Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 4:56 PM

My whole single life was missionary…praying for it…

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:59 PM

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 4:58 PM
I even did it with my hat and socks on once.

I’m such a rebel.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:59 PM

You two are dirty birds.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:00 PM

progressoverpeace on October 10, 2008 at 4:58 PM

Couldn’t agree more. I think that wonderful global educational benefits will eventually be reaped thanks to the internet.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 5:00 PM

Only one hour?

Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 4:59 PM

Trust me. Enough stiff ones, and an hour is enough.

MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 5:00 PM

LOL American men have historically been fine conquerors of british totty. Go forth and roger mightily.

God save the Queen!

I’m content over here with my southern belle

Lucky bastard. Southern women are the closest this nation has ever come to the best Britain has ever had to offer. (I’m thinking Kiera Knightley and Kate Beckinsale just for starters).

Talley-Ho!

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:01 PM

No problem with them “marrying”, just don’t call it a marriage. Marriage by definition is between a man and a woman.
Words mean something, and changing just changing the meaning of a word because it is PC, is a path that I don’t think we want to go down.

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:47 PM

Wait, did you just claim that you have no problem with gay people “marrying” as long as it is not called marriage?

If so, then you and I almost agree. I suggested earlier that the government get out of the marriage business altogether. Let’s call the legal union (and corresponding rights and responsibilities) of two people “civil unions” or some such thing. Let marriage remain the business of churches. Churches can marry or refuse to marry whomever they wish.

DCGamer on October 10, 2008 at 5:01 PM

I’m not married but I think its detrimental to society.

aengus on October 10, 2008 at 4:30 PM

I believe we have bigger fish to fry than this.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 4:33 PM

I think we should be quite capable of frying several fish simultaneously.

aengus on October 10, 2008 at 5:02 PM

You two are dirty birds. – HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:00 PM

Actually, we are dirty chaps – or blokes, if you prefer. As you are a southern lady and a friend we respect, I will decline to inquire if you are a dirty brid.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:03 PM

You are allowed coyote style…(please ask)

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:57 PM

In the back of a truck doing 90 across a desert in the middle of the night?

Kinky.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:58 PM

No, sitting by the hole and howling…that is what the doctor suggests the last few weeks with a pregnant wife.
First three months, any way
Second four months, doggie, to relieve pressure
last several weeks coyote style…
That was the advice given to me by my wife’s OB, 32 years ago.

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:03 PM

Actually, we are dirty chaps – or blokes, if you prefer. As you are a southern lady and a friend we respect, I will decline to inquire if you are a dirty brid.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:03 PM

“Dirty geezers” will also suffice.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 5:03 PM

and who decides the age of consent? its 14 in britain I hear…

right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:38 PM

It certainly is not. Where did you hear that?

Its 14 in Russia, maybe thats what you were thinking of.

aengus on October 10, 2008 at 5:04 PM

That was the advice given to me by my wife’s OB, 32 years ago.

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:03 PM

That’s quite some bedside manner.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 5:05 PM

Actually, we are dirty chaps – or blokes, if you prefer. As you are a southern lady and a friend we respect, I will decline to inquire if you are a dirty brid.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:03 PM

Well, I have learned here that-if you don’t do it missionary style only, you are a dirty bird. I am a dirty bird, then.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:05 PM

Not that I am for teaching creationism in schools, mind you.

Count to 10 on October 10, 2008 at 4:38 PM

Neither am I. But, given all the bones they throw to every group under the sun in the public school curricula – teaching just incorrect facts or exaggerating minor feats to make some group feel good about themselves – I don’t see why Christians should be denied even some mention of an idea that most people hear eventually, anyway.

progressoverpeace on October 10, 2008 at 4:50 PM

No, seriously. I do not want schools teaching creationism.
Though I tend to think that a literature and historic influence class on the bible might be in order. You know, for us atheists who had no idea what everyone else was talking about. I mean, it gets quoted an awful lot.

Count to 10 on October 10, 2008 at 5:06 PM

It certainly is not. Where did you hear that?

aengus on October 10, 2008 at 5:04 PM

He didn’t. He’s just hopeful.

MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 5:06 PM

nothing quite as refreshing as a hypocrite who whined about my ‘catholic bashing’ uh huh – right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:51 PM

Don’t start no sh!t, there won’t be no sh!t, Elmer.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:07 PM

You are allowed coyote style…(please ask)

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:57 PM

In the back of a truck doing 90 across a desert in the middle of the night?

Kinky.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:58 PM

I have lived in the desert for 10 years now and have not ever heard of “coyote” style. They do say their is a retard beacon in New Mexico. Just watch out for cactus.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:07 PM

Because NAMBLA is about as effective as the angry inbred Phelps church at actually getting anything done….

Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 4:53 PM

…Fred Phelps and his whelps…I’ve been trying to forget them….

…I’m convinced that the Savior had ol’ Fred in mind when he said:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matthew 7:21-23

…Fred’s proof that not everyone who says he’s a Christian, even some churches, are actually what they say they are…imagine that…after all, Lucifer is said to be a dedicated Bible scholar….

As to NAMBLA, I’m surprised at anyone being dismissive of them. I’m certainly not dismissive of ol’ Fred and his wacked-out family of tort lawyers.

Not to be trite, but the only thing we need for evil to triumph is for good people to turn it a blind eye. I’m surprized that we haven’t, under the name of protecting the innocent, legislated and incarcerated these pervs out of existence.

…again, proof of the pervasiveness of sin….

Puritan1648 on October 10, 2008 at 5:07 PM

Human behavior is the same in the Old Testament as it is today just as we have stopped evolving as a species. Christianity is not meant to “evolve” down to human level. It is only the human with the grace of God that can ever understand it or rise to its occasion.

Hening on October 10, 2008 at 4:57 PM

There have been some fundamental changes in the way we behave since old testament times. Biologically we’re the same, but as (mostly) rational actors we’ve responded to our vastly different social institutions.

RightOFLeft on October 10, 2008 at 5:07 PM

DCGamer on October 10, 2008 at 5:01 PM

We have no problem, civil unions, or gayiage or whatever. Just that marriage is between a man and a woman. The problem with “civil unions” is that it will be state sanctioned therefore taxed and regulated even more.
But basically anyone can have a civil union (contract law) right now. There doesn’t need to be any laws changed, just draw up a contract.

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:08 PM

I think we should be quite capable of frying several fish simultaneously.

aengus on October 10, 2008 at 5:02 PM

Damn it. Got hungry, going to get a Filet O’ Fish.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:08 PM

You are allowed coyote style…(please ask) – right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:57 PM

No thanks. Your mother doesn’t interest me.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:09 PM

No thanks. Your mother doesn’t interest me.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:09 PM

LMAO. You gotta warn me. Iced tea, again, all over my screen.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:10 PM

Well, I have learned here that-if you don’t do it missionary style only, you are a dirty bird. I am a dirty bird, then.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:05 PM

…egads…is this a blog or a confessional!

TMI!

…anyway…Scripture does mention missionaries…their positions are not mentioned, and are left to the imagination of the individual believer….

Puritan1648 on October 10, 2008 at 5:10 PM

I thought you were a good catholic?? well given the behavior of some of the priests….

There’s no need for you to start making vile statements as well. Refrain, please.

aengus on October 10, 2008 at 5:11 PM

…egads…is this a blog or a confessional!

TMI!

…anyway…Scripture does mention missionaries…their positions are not mentioned, and are left to the imagination of the individual believer….

Puritan1648 on October 10, 2008 at 5:10 PM

If that makes you blush, Puritan, check out the “COYOTE”.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:11 PM

That was the advice given to me by my wife’s OB, 32 years ago.

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:03 PM

That’s quite some bedside manner.

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 5:05 PM

We were having a drink after he made the rounds…before the government and lawyers stuck there nose into the medical field, doctors had a sense of humor and were actually approachable.

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:11 PM

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:08 PM

Sorry, I was confusing you with “right4life,” which is why I was so shocked.

DCGamer on October 10, 2008 at 5:12 PM

“Dirty geezers” will also suffice. – LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 5:03 PM

*sigh* Thanks for reminding me I’m no longer young. Damn, I think I’m gonna change my name to…Sanchez.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:12 PM

I suppose rodeo sex is verboten also…..

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 5:12 PM

There have been some fundamental changes in the way we behave since old testament times. Biologically we’re the same, but as (mostly) rational actors we’ve responded to our vastly different social institutions.

RightOFLeft on October 10, 2008 at 5:07 PM

Hmm… Eat, Sleep, Work, Have Sex, Compete with others for Mates.

No Sorry, I don’t think the fact we’re using computers and coinage instead of spears and barter to do our jobs has had enough of an effect to discard traditional morality.

Right and Wrong haven’t changed. Life in general has just become more complicated. Thankfully, Catholic teaching is voluminous, specific, and ageless.

BKennedy on October 10, 2008 at 5:13 PM

I am a dirty bird, then. – HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:05 PM

*leaves laptop and takes a cold shower*

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:13 PM

*sigh* Thanks for reminding me I’m no longer young. Damn, I think I’m gonna change my name to…Sanchez.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:12 PM

Um, I’m afraid to ask what your “first name” will be, Manly.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:14 PM

Gay marriage is the first step.

After gay marriage is passed they will make any disparaging speech about homosexuality illegal via hate crime’s laws.

Then they will outlaw religions that make “disparaging” speech against homosexuality.

But don’t worry it’s no big deal…they’ll let you go free if you simply deny Jesus Christ.

It’s only the millions that DON’T deny Jesus Christ that will go to the gas chambers at the FEMA camps..

SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 5:14 PM

I suppose rodeo sex is verboten also….. – LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 5:12 PM

Only if you can’t hang on for 8 seconds and she really does not have a younger sister.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:14 PM

Um, I’m afraid to ask what your “first name” will be, Manly. – HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:14 PM

Heh……………..Dirty.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:15 PM

Only if you can’t hang on for 8 seconds and she really does not have a younger sister.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:14 PM

I suppose your new name shall be DirtySanchez

BKennedy on October 10, 2008 at 5:16 PM

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:14 PM

But the buddy in the closet that leaps out with a camera is OK?

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 5:16 PM

Why the rush to “gay marriage?” There has been homosexuality for thousands of years… But no one thought it normal or natural that homosexuals should stay together for a life time. Marriage is for a man and a woman, bringing two different things together. Same things aren’t married they are the same.

Historically, there has never been a societal need to recognize gay marriage. Homosexuality is fundamentally different than heterosexuality.

The only possible reason to pursue “gay marriage” is because homosexuals want religous sanction. They think it will make them happy. But it won’t. Nothing will make that lifestyle one of happiness and peace.

When they win the court battles, they will go home and look for some other reason that this life makes them unhappy. They still have to look at themselves in the mirror. They will still need to blame someone for their unhappiness.

And non-homosexual liberals want to damage religion. To make religous teaching equivelant to hate speech. Liberals hate God, they are angry at God, they deny what they know to be true. Liberals want to damage religion. No one is ever going to win. This is a lose/lose direction for society.

petunia on October 10, 2008 at 5:17 PM

Gay marriage is the first step.

After gay marriage is passed they will make any disparaging speech about homosexuality illegal via hate crime’s laws.

Then they will outlaw religions that make “disparaging” speech against homosexuality.

But don’t worry it’s no big deal…they’ll let you go free if you simply deny Jesus Christ.

It’s only the millions that DON’T deny Jesus Christ that will go to the gas chambers at the FEMA camps..

SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 5:14 PM

Then they make you march like penguins
Then they take away our zulu badges
Then they make you read books upside down
Then they only give you 31 flavors
Then they only let you watch the View
Then they bring Rosie back
Then they look at re-runs of Broken Arrow
Then they make you read SaintOlaf posts
…then you die…

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:18 PM

But the buddy in the closet that leaps out with a camera is OK? – LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 5:16 PM

As long as he doesn’t work for one of the tabloids or has internet access.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:18 PM

Gay marriage is the first step.

After gay marriage is passed they will make any disparaging speech about homosexuality illegal via hate crime’s laws.

SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 5:14 PM

There are already “hate crime laws” for punching a homosexual if they can confirm that your intent was to attack a homosexual. If this was true, they would have outlawed racial slurs years ago.

Gay marriage is the first step. Don’t tell me you believe that people are going to go to the supreme court because they want to marry their pet goat.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:18 PM

I suppose your new name shall be DirtySanchez – BKennedy on October 10, 2008 at 5:16 PM

Ah….the memories.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:18 PM

For a long time it was accepted by the (male) majority (and even the female one) that women weren’t mentally or physically able to vote.

Really? They were so weak they couldn’t make it to the polling station?

aengus on October 10, 2008 at 5:18 PM

Heh……………..Dirty.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:15 PM

Thought so. This is going off the rails quick. Even my black dog is blushing.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:19 PM

For a long time it was accepted by the (male) majority (and even the female one) that women weren’t mentally or physically able to vote.
Really? They were so weak they couldn’t make it to the polling station?

aengus on October 10, 2008 at 5:18 PM

WTF? Don’t even start……

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:20 PM

Right and Wrong haven’t changed. Life in general has just become more complicated. Thankfully, Catholic teaching is voluminous, specific, and ageless. – BKennedy on October 10, 2008 at 5:13 PM

Well said, BK. Some folks are too blinded by their bigotry to draw any refreshing water at all from that well.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:20 PM

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:08 PM

Sorry, I was confusing you with “right4life,” which is why I was so shocked.

DCGamer on October 10, 2008 at 5:12 PM

I can imagine the shock, thinking right4life finally started being rationale…how much of the bottle did you drink before you spotted the mistake?

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:20 PM

Ah….the memories.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:18 PM

Should it not work out, you could always be a Locomotive from Ohio.

BKennedy on October 10, 2008 at 5:21 PM

Thought so. This is going off the rails quick. Even my black dog is blushing. – HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:19 PM

That’s a mighty pretty-looking black dog you got there, Miss Hornet. Mighty fine. Ummmmm…ummmmm…….

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:22 PM

SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 5:14 PM

I thought you believed in marriage before offering the “forbidden” slippery slope…

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:22 PM

Marriage is supposed to be happy, yes?

So why don’t we call all marriage “gay marriage”?

Win Win

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 5:22 PM

Should it not work out, you could always be a Locomotive from Ohio. – BKennedy on October 10, 2008 at 5:21 PM

Heh….talk about stoking the furnace….getting up a head of steam….watching those pistons pump…..Choooo-Chooooo

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:23 PM

The Golden Rule, yeah, how foolish.

We need a new, more modern social theory to figure out how to live with each other, because all old things suck.

Hey, I know! Let’s try Socialism and Secular Humanism!

pseudonominus on October 10, 2008 at 4:58 PM

Just one old thing in particular, actually.

Scroll up for an example of what I’m talking about. Gays should be able to marry, and there isn’t any extra-biblical argument that they shouldn’t. If it weren’t for the politically correct genuflection to Christian sensibilities, we’d have fair marriage laws in all 50 states instead of just 3.

RightOFLeft on October 10, 2008 at 5:23 PM

That’s a mighty pretty-looking black dog you got there, Miss Hornet. Mighty fine. Ummmmm…ummmmm…….

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:22 PM

Hum. By the way, the black dog is racist. And he does not believe in gay marriage, sorry.
So, I hear in NJ, the men are men and the sheep are nervous. Would you call that “Riding the Wool”?

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:24 PM

Right and Wrong haven’t changed. Life in general has just become more complicated. Thankfully, Catholic teaching is voluminous, specific, and ageless.

BKennedy on October 10, 2008 at 5:13 PM

How many slaves do you own, Kennedy? Oh, I’m sorry, perhaps you are an educated slave yourself.

Who is our current king with absolute power?

How many literate people do you know who are able to read the Bible?

Do you know anyone who has lived past the age of 40?

Good Lord, Kennedy, the world has changed incredibly over the 2,000 years since the New Testament was written. You cannot simply assert that “right and wrong haven’t changed.” Some have some have not. Slavery, for instance, was both legal and moral in the Bible. Even Jesus refers to it. If slavery was “right,” then why have we made it illegal (at least in the West…some Muslim states are another matter altogether).

DCGamer on October 10, 2008 at 5:24 PM

WTF? Don’t even start…… – HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:20 PM

Oh puhleeeze…we gave women the right to vote and the first presient they elected was Warren G. Harding.

*puts on kevlar helmet and dives for cover*

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:24 PM

Marriage is supposed to be happy, yes?

So why don’t we call all marriage “gay marriage”?

Win Win

LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 5:22 PM

Because after 10 years what would you call it?
Sad marriage, mistaken marriage, oh no marriage??

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:25 PM

It’s only the millions that DON’T deny Jesus Christ that will go to the gas chambers at the FEMA camps..

SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 5:14 PM

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Alex Jones.

MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 5:25 PM

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:18 PM

Maybe you’re right.

In a few months when president Barack Hussein Osama takes control of the white house and renames the country the United States of Saudi Arabia…the homosexuals in this country will finally realize they were the useful idiots as they are sent to the gas chambers at the FEMA camps alongside the Christians and the “white devils”…

SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 5:26 PM

So, I hear in NJ, the men are men and the sheep are nervous. Would you call that “Riding the Wool”? – HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:24 PM

Actually, Miss Hornet, in NJ the men are usually Democrats and the former governor is nervous.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:26 PM

WTF? Don’t even start…… – HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:20 PM
Oh puhleeeze…we gave women the right to vote and the first presient they elected was Warren G. Harding.

*puts on kevlar helmet and dives for cover*

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:24 PM

Sheep comment was preemptive strike.

I was discussing the Hardy vote with Hubby the other night. So, how do we explain Barack H. Obama…..Acorn getting out the crack-head vote? Sufferage for Crack Heads.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:27 PM

In a few months when president Barack Hussein Osama takes control of the white house and renames the country the United States of Saudi Arabia…the homosexuals in this country will finally realize they were the useful idiots as they are sent to the gas chambers at the FEMA camps alongside the Christians and the “white devils”…

SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 5:26 PM

Big fan of the Turner Diaries, I see.

MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 5:27 PM

Trust me. Enough stiff ones, and an hour is enough.

MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 5:00 PM

So long as you can keep them coming. I’ll need at least four or five to make it last all day. Seven or eight and I’m horizontal for days.

Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 5:28 PM

Actually, Miss Hornet, in NJ the men are usually Democrats and the former governor is nervous.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:26 PM

Heh. Forgot about that. Community sheep.

HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:28 PM

I thought you believed in marriage before offering the “forbidden” slippery slope… – right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:22 PM

The slope is only slippery if it’s been lubricated.

Sorry…that was too good to pass up.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:28 PM

Heh. Forgot about that. Community sheep. – HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:28 PM

Do I think that is disgusting? Na-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:29 PM

So long as you can keep them coming. I’ll need at least four or five to make it last all day. Seven or eight and I’m horizontal for days.

Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 5:28 PM

I can guarantee you’ll need a taxi. Walking normally will be out of the question.

MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 5:29 PM

DCGamer on October 10, 2008 at 5:24 PM

Things had changed, when I was young (during the late 60’s) getting a girl “stoned” was a good thing.

right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 5:30 PM

I was discussing the Hardy vote with Hubby the other night. So, how do we explain Barack H. Obama…..Acorn getting out the crack-head vote? Sufferage for Crack Heads. – HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 5:27 PM

But of course, my dear. One pipe, five votes.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:30 PM

Don’t start no sh!t, there won’t be no sh!t, Elmer.

ManlyRash on October 10, 2008 at 5:07 PM

well jethro, you obviously like em young, do you like boys or girls?

right4life on October 10, 2008 at 5:30 PM

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