Connecticut Supreme Court legalizes gay marriage
posted at 2:05 pm on October 10, 2008 by Allahpundit
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A done deal, and given Connecticut’s deep blue electorate, one not likely to be overridden by amendment.
Probably good for McCain, though.
The Supreme Court released its historic ruling at 11:30 a.m. Citing the equal protection clause of the state constitution, the justices ruled that civil unions were discriminatory and that the state’s “understanding of marriage must yield to a more contemporary appreciation of the rights entitled to constitutional protection.”…
In a statement released minutes after the decision was announced, Gov. M. Jodi Rell said she disagreed with it, but uphold it. She said she was proud to sign the state’s civil unions law in 2005, the first in the nation enacted without a court mandate, and thought it was “equitable and just.”
“The Supreme Court has spoken,” Rell said. “I do not believe their voice reflects the majority of the people of Connecticut. However, I am also firmly convinced that attempts to reverse this decision — either legislatively or by amending the state Constitution — will not meet with success. I will therefore abide by the ruling.”…
The opposition will now turn its sights to the November election, when voters will be asked whether the state should convene a constitutional convention. “Connecticut voters will have one opportunity on Nov. 4 to reassert their right to self government. We must vote yes.”
Here’s the opinion. Skip ahead to page 21 for the crux of it, declaring gays a “quasi-suspect class” for purposes of the state’s equal protection jurisprudence. What “class” you are pretty much determines as a rule whether you can be discriminated against by law; if you belong to a class that’s “suspect,” i.e. historically powerless and persecuted, then the legislature has virtually no leeway against you. The Connecticut Supremes decided they couldn’t call gays a fully “suspect” class because the U.S. Supreme Court hasn’t declared them that (yet), so they opted for “quasi-suspect” based on four factors: (1) historic discrimination, (2) whether sexual orientation is related to one’s ability to contribute to society (this is here to give the state extra power to regulate the disabled), (3) immutability of sexual orientation, i.e. is it a choice or is it inborn and thus unchangeable, and (4) whether gays lack political power, which starts on page 28 and is the most interesting section of the four.
All in all, the analysis is similar to the California Supreme Court’s, which also used an equal protection argument to strike down their state’s marriage statute. The fatal blow for gay marriage opponents is the fact that the state already allows civil unions for gay couples; I think laypeople look at that and assume that that means the state, having acted in good faith, will be given the benefit of the doubt when gays inevitably sue for full marriage rights, but as I’ve tried to explain before, it doesn’t work that way. To discriminate by law, you need a good reason. Admitting that gays should be entitled to all the same rights as married couples but not the label of “marriage” itself forces the court to conclude that the distinction is purely semantic, and semantics simply ain’t good enough as a “good reason.” From page 62:
Although we acknowledge that many legislators and many of their constituents hold strong personal convictions with respect to preserving the traditional concept of marriage as a heterosexual institution, such beliefs, no matter how deeply held, do not constitute the exceedingly persuasive justification required to sustain a statute that discriminates on the basis of a quasi-suspect classification. ‘‘That civil marriage has traditionally excluded same-sex couples—i.e., that the ‘historic
and cultural understanding of marriage’ has been between a man and a woman—cannot in itself provide a [sufficient] basis for the challenged exclusion. To say that the discrimination is ‘traditional’ is to say only that the discrimination has existed for a long time. A classification, however, cannot be maintained merely ‘for its own sake’ [Romer v. Evans, supra, 517 U.S. 635]. Instead, the classification ([that is], the exclusion of gay [persons] from civil marriage) must advance a state interest that is separate from the classification itself [see id., 633, 635]. Because the ‘tradition’ of excluding gay [persons] from civil marriage is no different from the classification itself, the exclusion cannot be justified on the basis of ‘history.’ Indeed, the justification of ‘tradition’ does not explain the classification; it merely repeats it. Simply put, a history or tradition of discrimination—no matter how entrenched—does not make the discrimination constitutional . . . .’’ (Citation omitted.) Hernandez v. Robles, supra, 7 N.Y.3d 395 (Kaye, C. J., dissenting)…It is only because the state has not advanced a sufficiently persuasive justification for denying same sex couples the right to marry that the traditional definition of marriage necessarily must be expanded to include such couples. If the defendants were able to demonstrate sufficient cause to deny same sex couples the right to marry, then we would reject the plaintiffs’ claim and honor the state’s desire to preserve the institution of marriage as a union between a man and a woman. In the absence of such a showing, however, we cannot refuse to follow settled equal protection jurisprudence merely because doing so will result in a change in the definition of marriage.
Exit question: Time to start talking about Obama’s judicial appointments?
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Amen. Send around the optometrist from Plank Removal Inc. for a check-up,
aengus on October 10, 2008 at 3:36 PM
Um, no they won’t. Just as I wasn’t, even though the teachers tried. My parents kept me wise, and I’ll do the same for my children.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 3:36 PM
Was it laughable for evangelists to write down what Christ said and for it to be preserved for 2,000 years? When Christ gave the Sermon on the Mount was it just for the immediate audience or was it as important for today’s audience?
dedalus on October 10, 2008 at 3:37 PM
The Internet was just an example. People have been engaging in the kinds of sex depicted on the Internet since the beginning of time (minus any technological advances of course).
The argument is specifically related to the Internet. It’s just that through the Internet people have an easier time becoming accustomed to different sex practices, ones they wouldn’t normally be exposed to.
But people can be exposed to these practices through other media, including books and pictures. Many cultures even engaged in orgies that likely also changed the way those participants viewed sex.
And it’s true that people can have erotic dreams before even knowing what sex is. I know that I did. Although, since I didn’t know what sex was, I didn’t dream about it. I merely dreamed about things I associated with sex, even if they didn’t necessarily have anything to do with sex.
Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Actually, in my mind I’m taller, with a Charlton Heston jawline.
LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Yes, I have spoken…If it was so, I would have had Moses walk down the mountain with a laptop and copies of the Ten Commandants written in Times New Roman (back up of course, off line). But, I had not given Gore the key yet, so there was no internet.
I have chosen HotAir as the conduit for my thoughts, and right4life and St.Olaf are my spokespersons for all of those on earth….naw I’m just kidding, I created them for entertainment for all of you to laugh at them, kind of a Job thing.
BTW, someone on this post called me an “out of work carpenter”, I want to set the record straight, I left that for a higher calling, I had plenty of work and I was pretty good with a hammer and saw. And the irony of all the men who post about me is this; Woman were the only ones who were faithful to me to the end, they are the only ones who never failed me.
And when I said “turn the other cheek”, that was not a homosexual comment…
right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Emperor Tiberius used to look at pornographic images drawn on papyrus scrolls.
aengus on October 10, 2008 at 3:38 PM
You have ‘issues’
LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Wrong again. I’d appreciate if you’d quit lying by saying I claim to know who is speaking for God. I never made any such claim. I did claim that SaintOlaf is not speaking for god, and that if there was a messenger of god, he’s not going to be posting comments on a political website. Which is what I wanted to get the following answer out of you:
Very simple. You’re a loon. If you honestly believe that, you’re either out of your damned mind, or you’re just so angered at my heathen status and questioning of your pal SaintOlaf as second coming, that you’re saying anything just to make you and he seem less like a couple of bozos who have been drinking too much “holy water”.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 3:41 PM
jude:
7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
sexual immorality and perversion…and they were trying to rape men….but its not about homosexuality….
delusional.
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 3:41 PM
Yes, people have thought about porn forever but not the Internet itself.
dedalus on October 10, 2008 at 3:41 PM
oh yes the atheist KNOWS who is speaking for God, when and where…you must be in a great deal of pain, such stupidity has to hurt.
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 3:41 PM
You’ve misunderstood me. I was asking to put aside Evolution/Creation for the purposes of this discussion because I do not want to get involved in multiple discussions simultaneously. I am a Christian and Creationist though. I’m also not a neocon if thats any use to ya.
aengus on October 10, 2008 at 3:42 PM
…and it’s amazing how peoples sense of humor dries up when you tred upon the big, red, inflamed toe of their favorite issue….
Frankly, unlike those who wish to eradicate sin from human life by legislating it to death (remember Prohibition?), I’ve actually read a bit of the Bible, and a bit of theology, and I’ve come away with the view, commonly held in my church and by sister churches down the ages, that efforts at eradicating sin is folly.
Quote of record: we’re all sinners, and sin is encoded in our DNA. We all do it, we’ll all keep doing it until we die, and only — literally — by the grace of God will we escape the consequences for it.
The problem that I have with this whole things is two-fold:
1) Folks saying that sin is no longer sin. According to some, we’ve “outgrown” this or that sin. Organizations once churches have even gotten on this bandwagon. Parsing quotes, a tactic used in the slavery debates of 150 years ago, can be used to justify anything. Reading the whole of Scripture leads one to an understanding that sin is sin, was sin, and will remain sin.
2) People will try anything to get their way. Now, I’m all for people who want to bring homosexual marriage into the mainstream fighting what they see as their “good fight”…but all too often, as with extremists of all stripes and causes, they’re willing to deconstruct the whole railroad in order to shunt their car onto the train.
Sin is sin.
Ignoring sin doesn’t make it right, and not believing in it doesn’t make it right. I’m reminded of a cartoon, where, halfway across a chasm, Bugs Bunny stops Wile E. Coyote. Wile E. looks at the camera, grimaces, and falls. Predictable. Bugs looks at the camera, smarts off that it’s lucky that he doesn’t believe in gravity, and walks across thin air off camera.
Sin is distance from God. I respect the rights of citizens enough, and am realistic enough, not to ever think that I could keep folks from their sins. I mourn them their consequences, but don’t want to get into a spitting match over their choices to ignore the single most powerful force outside, around and permeating Creation.
So, have at it. I’m here if you want to talk.
Then again, the republic is the republic.
Respect its orgainization and its laws…even judges and justices would be well advised to heed this….
Puritan1648 on October 10, 2008 at 3:42 PM
Don’t give John a bad rap. He was at the foot of the cross when the rest were in hiding. Hopefully you are not preaching feminist liberation theology. Along with gay bishops, the Episcopal church preaching about Sister Jesus is not helping them either.
Hening on October 10, 2008 at 3:42 PM
Can I get a fish sandwich and some wine?
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 3:43 PM
I just read this story, and I haven’t had time to read everyone’s comments, but I would like to congratulate the state supreme court of Connecticut for making this courageous decision. Before y’all attack me, let me make a few points.
1. The decision reflects civil marriage, not religious marriage. We must distinguish between the two. Churches are still able to define marriage as the sacred union between a man and a woman. This ruling prevents the government from denying a set of rights to one group of people.
Some might make the stupid argument that no discrimination is happening. A gay man has every right to marry any woman that a straight man does. I believe that you know in your heart that that argument is just plain silly. After all, would you randomly marry any woman (or man) or do you marry the person that you LOVE.
2. In the advancement of civil rights, sometimes the courts must act where the legislature cannot or will not act. How long do you think that the legislature of Alabama would have taken to rescind the segration laws to allow black children to attend the same schools as white children? Would any of you now suggest that the majority should decide whether black kids can attend the same schools as white kids? I hope not. Likewise, why should the majority decide who can marry whom? Who I choose to commit the rest of my life to is none of your business.
3. I understand how powerful the word “marriage” is. For those of you who are uncomfortable with “gay marriage,” why not get the government out of the marriage business altogether. Let the state issue “civil unions” to everyone. Let churches “marry” people. I believe that much of the debate over this issue comes from the loaded term “marriage.”
OK, I have braced myself. Let fly your slings and arrows of outrageous comment…
DCGamer on October 10, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Tell you what….how about an experiment? Go down to the Blue Oyster Bar, take one in the tradesman’s entrance, and see if god strikes you down.
Other than walking funny for a couple of hours, I reckon you’ll be alright.
LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 3:43 PM
jude:
YOU call it homosexuality…the Bible didn’t. AGAIN, where in the Bible does it specifically state that homosexual activity was the cause of God’s judgment on Sodom?
JetBoy on October 10, 2008 at 3:43 PM
right2bright: Funny but did you just get to feeling the heebie jeebies after your pretend job there? I think God has a sense of humor.
Vince on October 10, 2008 at 3:44 PM
you just contradicted yourself. laughable.
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 3:45 PM
You could say that JetBoy, but the “sin of Sodom” was a very specific sin. What do you think sodomy means? It means anal sex. We get the term from when God overthrew the city of Sodom and Gomorrah. And God’s judgment on Sodom is remembered even today and is characterized by the type of sin that has become prominent again in America and the nations around the world. So while the sin of sodomy, or homosexuality also refers to fornication, there can be no mistake what the phrase “sin of Sodom” is referring to:
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” Jude 7
apacalyps on October 10, 2008 at 3:45 PM
what would you call having sex with men? seriously you are delusional, blinded by your own sin and lust. you twist the scripture to meet your selfish desires.
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Agnostic, not atheist, dipstick. Atheists have faith that there is no god, and I’ve pissed many a one off by pointing that out. I have no faith either way. Nice try, though. Your hatred of non-believers is really in full swing now, ain’t it?
Oh, and for the third time, since you’re an illiterate boob it seems, I haven’t claimed to know who is speaking for god, only who is not. Namely, you and SanctimoniusOaf.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Guys, the hate crime thing is not a joke or an exaggeration. Mark Steyn faced more persecution for writing a book than Barney Frank did for wrecking an economy. Yeah, up in Canada Christians are not being put in concentration camps, duh, but they are under attack in the courts thanks to the legitimacy earlier granted by said courts to the radical gay agenda. See here for one brave woman fighting back. This is what those commenters are talking about, it has come to Canada, it has come to Europe, you are nuts if you think it doesn’t stand a chance of coming to America.
p.s. Steyn was just acquitted by the BC Human Rights Tribunal this afternoon!
AdrianG on October 10, 2008 at 3:46 PM
to know who is NOT speaking for God you would have to know who IS speaking for God…..duhhhhhhhhhhhhhh moron.
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Are you talking about the 10 Commandments or the law in Leviticus? They are two separate things.
If it’s the latter, than I can assume you don’t eat pork and don’t wear clothing made of two different materials?
Well, I’d assume the angels were virgins too, so I can’t imagine sexual experience was high up on their concerns.
Maybe she was ugly. I don’t know.
Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Nah. Ubama not only has a FINAL SOLUTION worked out for the Christians….but also for those pesky homosexuals.
Wanna know why there are no homosexuals in Iran?
SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 3:47 PM
p.s. the first place human rights courts look? The internet. That means Hot Air. And government bureacrats can’t tell when you’re being sarcastic, so Madison Conservative will be hauled to jail along with the rest of us.
AdrianG on October 10, 2008 at 3:47 PM
…by the way…I threw that in as an additional scrap of red meat against my better judgment…as it turns out, there’s already enough red meat on this thread to satisfy a busload of wolves….
…if you take offense, I apologize….
…not an excuse, but it’s just that sometimes I’m not sure that people actually read the long, tortured missives I tap out, and it’s nice to see that one got noticed, even if for something stupid and insulting….
…I’m sure that somebody out there might’ve seen it and laughed…and they should be ashamed of themselves….
Puritan1648 on October 10, 2008 at 3:47 PM
government bureaucrats also cannot presumably spell bureaucrat, so we’ve got one thing in common.
AdrianG on October 10, 2008 at 3:48 PM
lets look at the life expectancy of gay people…shall we??
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 3:48 PM
Ah, we’ve reached your core.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 3:48 PM
Who said it was conscious? Its learned and subconscious, just like the sports you mention. You can’t just know, in theory, how to play, and expect to go out and be a champion on the first try.
That you subconsciously dream about what you have learned only reinforces the point. Likely, those dreams are only as detailed as the dreamer’s experience. If you have never seen a member of the opposite sex nude, I don’t think you acurately dream about them in that state.
If you have been married and faithful for most of your adult life, there is reason to believe that this might be hard to imagine–you have a lot riding on only being aroused by your wife.
Count to 10 on October 10, 2008 at 3:48 PM
Oh, brother…and AGAIN, it is YOU, not the Bible, that equates “fornication” and “strange flesh” to “homosexuality”.
JetBoy on October 10, 2008 at 3:48 PM
oh please lets split hairs, you know as well as I do there is a moral and ceremonial law…Jesus threw out the ceremonial law, do you really want to argue He threw out the moral law???
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 3:49 PM
I have a quibble with this, Allah. This makes it seem like, e.g., black people are a suspect class, but not whites, and that it would be ok to discriminate against whites. But that’s not true. Race is a suspect class, but specific races are not. So a law that discriminates against anyone on the basis of race, whether whites or blacks or whoever are the target, will generally be held unconstitutional.
As to the topic at hand, I’ve gone back and forth on this and at this point I don’t really see what the great harm is in allowing same-sex marriage. And if state supreme courts want to interpret their equal protection clauses such that not allowing same-sex marriage is unconstitutional, why make a fuss? I live in Cali, and at this point I’m kind of resigned to letting the will of the people prevail. Yes, in California the Court overruled the will of the people in the first place, but the people are getting another chance to vote on it. If they decide they want to keep gay marriage, meh, it’s California. What are you going to do?
And if Connecticut and Massachusetts and whoever do it, so what? Even if our nation gets to the point where, like, Texas is going for same-sex marriage, is that really so terrible? Though I have my own opinions about what the definition of marriage is, not everyone shares that opinion and I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. I do think that the fact that gay marriage is so accepted is a sign of a more far-reaching decline into moral relativism which I think is harmful, but gay marriage in and of itself I do not think is particularly harmful.
Personally, I’m kind of getting to the point where I don’t understand why government is in the marriage business at all. It makes the most sense to me to just let any two people get domestically partnered, and if they want to go to Church or wherever and get married, or just call themselves married, let them. To me, marriage has a spiritual aspect, and that’s part of what defines it as marriage, in my opinion. The fact that many, many people may disagree with me, as well as the fact that marriage is so intertwined with religion, just make it more clear to me that it’s not really within the province of the government.
MissEm on October 10, 2008 at 3:49 PM
I don’t like humor in the vein of Al Franken. If you’re going to be extreme, Sam Kinison is far more palatable.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 3:50 PM
I see the same ole cheerleaders here, except for “Average Gay Joe”, but I expect he’ll be along shortly.
DFCtomm on October 10, 2008 at 3:50 PM
I’m even further removed from the whole god ‘thing’ than agnosticism. It’s not that I don’t know either way (a la agnostics), it’s that I refute the very concept of ‘gods’ itself.
Arguing over whether there is or isn’t a god makes as much sense to me as children arguing over santa claus. It isn’t simply that he doesn’t exist, but that the framework of the whole debate is abject nonsense.
LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 3:51 PM
BDGamer @ 3:43 PM
Excellent suggestion #3
Vince on October 10, 2008 at 3:51 PM
It only means that because of the way we interpret the Bible. The Bible itself doesn’t make that claim.
No, fornication is just having sex outside of marriage. It doesn’t matter what kind of sex it is.
And yes, the New Testament more than once speaks against homosexuality. Jesus did not though, which was his earlier point.
Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 3:52 PM
DCGamer not BDGamer
Vince on October 10, 2008 at 3:52 PM
That’s not what the courts have ruled on affirmative action and other race-based laws. They may not say what they are thinking, explicitly, but it is all easy to see in the rulings.
The fact is that there is no rhyme or reason to most of our judicial rulings. Judicial fiat is the only rule most know and it is the rule we have labored under for decades.
progressoverpeace on October 10, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Sounds plausible. A real two-bagger.
LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 3:53 PM
I agree with you, I think that this is the only logical way to go. But from what I have seen, I suspect that gay activists would not be happy with that, they want the word “marriage” applied to their union, otherwise, the fight would be to extend all the rights given to married couples to civil unions, not to re-define marriage.
If governments, or judges, stopped trying to define the word “marriage” and stuck with “civil unions” this would be a much simpler issue.
neuquenguy on October 10, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Yes He did.
He said that in the beginning He made marriage between one man and one woman!
SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Yeah, that’s atheism. It’s nothing special, dude.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 3:53 PM
lets see the men of sodom wanted to have sex with angels…and refused an offer of a virgin female…but thats not gay sex…uh yeah ok…do you think the angels looked like cows or something?
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Fornication is not limited to homosexual sex, smart guy. It’s heterosexual sex as well.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM
I mean she did have sex with her dad when they were safe, but she had to get him drunk first.
They wanted to rape the two angels. Presumably it would have been a problem even if the mob wanted to rape to female angels (assuming any exist).
Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 3:57 PM
I would call it “having sex with men.” I know many men who identify as “straight” who have experimented with sex with another man (Senator Craig comes to mind). Some of these guys have only done it once. Does that make them homosexual?
Likewise, I know some gay men who are celibate. They are not engaging in sex with men, but they will still call themselves “homosexual.”
A gay person is a person who feels sexually attracted to the person of the same sex. The sex act itself is immaterial.
Are you straight because you have sex with women (assuming you are a man), or do you have sex with women because you are straight?
DCGamer on October 10, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Seen a lot of angels lately, have you? Know what they look like, do you? Please supply us with camera shots.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 3:57 PM
This is what gives Christians a bad rap, I do a little schtick and along comes some nut talking about feminist liberation theology…as if they know what theology even means.
Yes, if you live on the west coast, you can go to a Rubio’s or Wahoo’s two of my finer things I have created.
If not here is my simple recipe:
grouper (or any of My flaky white fish), coat with olive oil and breaded (I prefer Panko), fry.
Slice cabbage (white) thinly
make a sauce of mayo, sour cream, hot sauce (tabasco is one that I enjoyed creating).
Garnish with avocado if you wish
Corn tortilla, place a little cabbage, place piece of fish, a little sauce, more cabbage, sauce and guacamole or avocado. You can garnish with chives or green onions, enjoy.
Most any wine, but I would suggest Pacifico beer with a lime.
You are welcome my son, you are always welcome at My table.
right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 3:57 PM
I have sex with angels.
Hawt.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Technically, that’s what Moses said. I’m not arguing that Moses was speaking of his own accord, but I understand those who might argue that he was, the same as some would argue of the New Testament books that also speak against homosexuality.
Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 3:59 PM
Look, this particular issue, gay marriage, struck me a month ago during a visit to MA. My friends are getting married. They are not man and woman. One of them has been my friend since grade school. Has homosexuality changed our relationship? No, I still love my friend.
Do I believe that gay marriage somehow lessens my marriage with my husband? No. If you believe that, maybe you need to look at your own marriage and ask yourself if it is as strong as you believe.
Do I believe that it is our place to judge gay marriage? No. It is between the gay couple and their God. It is not our place to judge. I love my friend and partner. They are good people.
The end game for gay marriage is rights. Rights of a couple to be able to buy a home together, see each other in the hospital if they are sick. If you go to the ER and you are not a spouse or a family member, you cannot enter to see your loved one. Could you imagine that happening to you? Civil unions don’t go far enough. I believe everyone has a gay person in their life, whether they know it or not. If you change your feelings about that person just because of who the sleep with, that is your problem.
I believe in God. I just don’t believe it is my or anyone
else’s place to judge our fellow man.
HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 3:59 PM
Damn. I’ve got everything except the fish, bread, and wine. Too late to hit the store. Where could we possibly get some?
(pssst…come on, dude! I was only able to get this chick by telling her I knew Jesus! Make with the miracles!)
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 4:00 PM
I have to nitpick, homosexuality can be immutable without necessarily being inborn.
It’s hard to argue with the court’s reasoning. Tradition is not a justification for discrimination. You could argue that a separate institution for gay marriage is actually more responsive to the unique problems of homosexual monogamy, but that only justifies civil union laws, it’s no reason to shut gays out from traditional marriage (or straights from civil unions, I guess).
For some reason this reminds me of those Chuck Norris lists.
RightOFLeft on October 10, 2008 at 4:00 PM
Genesis 19:5-8
5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
Hening on October 10, 2008 at 4:01 PM
LOL. I think it’s pretty safe to call anyone who trolls for gay sexual encounters in public bathrooms, ‘gay’. But I get a kick out of the idea that he was just doing some ‘research’.
progressoverpeace on October 10, 2008 at 4:01 PM
I knew you could be counted on for another stupid statment, thanks for the laughs…
Genesis 19:
5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
so the men of Sodom thought they looked like men…again duhhhhhhh *smirk*
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:01 PM
Godfrey Daniels, there’s a lot of religion being shredded on this thread….
…sound biblical theology was the lifes work of hundres of men over the millenia, and has some fairly tried and true principles….
…were the principles of engineering and construction to be treated with the same cavalier manner as theology is being treated by the well-meaning and somewhat overheated folks on both sides here…we’d all be living in caves.
…in the end, it’s not up for debate that homosexuality is a sin. That’s fairly settled.
…the court in New England didn’t judge the case based on homosexuality’s sin. They haven’t got that authority. Despite what the Left has been asserting, nobody’s trying to establish a theocracy, a’la Temple-era Judea.
…the reasons Christians — and others, we must recognize, muslims especially — don’t favor homosexuality is pretty well established…even among those visceral Christians who can’t immediately spit out a quote establishing their case, but who resist it on a gut level….
…by the same token, non-believers have the right to point out that this isn’t a matter of church case law. Ours is a secular society.
That said, it’s becoming like a great theological and legal-theory pie fight, and I’m as much to blame as anyone….
…what say we all throttle back a bit…there are good people here…even among the trolls…if the decision is wrong, why is it wrong on legal grounds? You can quote Galatians and Romans 1 until the cows play fiddles, but, while eloquent, they aren’t admissible as evidence even in Connecticut’s court.
If it was right, don’t rely on some transcendental feel-good notion or that it’s just codifying what people are doing anyway. People steal anyway, don’t they? Why was it right?
…and what does the Creation have to do with homosexual marriage? Was there an eighth day of Creation mentioned? “And we see that Bruce digs Bob, and it is good”….
…red meat indeed….
Puritan1648 on October 10, 2008 at 4:01 PM
The point is those angels specifically were seen as men.
There is no where to go with this argument about whether or not sodom means gays..it clearly did.
The Fathers of the Church clearly stated that this is the correct interpretation and it is very obvious in Scripture.
SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 4:02 PM
According to the Bible, they looked like men. Maybe they were butch women, but they passed enough for men, that the men in the city were convinced.
“And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.”
Of course “know” being in the sexual sense.
Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 4:03 PM
With respect, no, it’s not atheism, it’s deeper than that.
I use the unicorn to highlight the difference.
Various creatures fly, various creatures have horns, so it is possible that a flying horned horse could exist. The ‘atheist’ would say they don’t, the ‘theist’ would say they do. They are at least arguing on both sides of a possibility.
My viewpoint is from a position of observing people argue over a ‘flying spaghetti monster’ fantasy. That the entire premise is null. To me, this seems the only rational perspective, otherwise there would be an infinite number of ‘gods’ I don’t believe in. I no more “don’t believe in god” than I “don’t believe in quaftananglepatapoop”.
LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:04 PM
yes.
you know I always wonder about people who label themselves based upon their sexuality. I am heterosexual…but I don’t go around telling others ‘I’m straight or I’m a hetereosexual’
a distinction without a difference…
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:04 PM
Hey! I found your picture!
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 4:05 PM
well all KNOW he just had a cramp in his leg, so he had to widen his stance….
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:05 PM
+ 1
Tacitus on October 10, 2008 at 4:07 PM
ignorance, and stupdity found you a long time ago, and never left obviously…
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:07 PM
I have a problem with this portion. He knows the mob wants to rape his two guests and calls it wicked right before he offers up his two virgin daughters? Lot was just as wicked as the rest of them. If for no other reason than because he was willing to let his daughters be raped by strangers.
Esthier on October 10, 2008 at 4:07 PM
by the way, no less than Camille Paglia has taken a lot of heat for consistently arguing that homosexuality is not innate. Her argument, as I understand it, is that it is the result of various intense psychodramas experienced in childhood and during adolescence, traumatic experiences related to domineering/overpowering/emasculating women who put you off the gender or some other psychological factors that ‘pervert’ your sexual expression just as it is beginning to be formed. Basically the innate urge is towards heterosexuality, but strong enough factors can transform it into something else. I actually think that her argument (if that is her argument, I think it is) makes a lot of sense. One thing I always wondered about is why so many gay men are so effeminate. I think it must be because kids grow up like the people around them (speaking like their parents, for example), and these gay men must have grown up around very strong and dominating women figures, so the effeminate behavior is just a natural reflection of that. And having these overpowering women in their lives maybe turned them off the gender altogether, and meanwhile they were probably always longing for some father figure since no man was around, and as they grew up and became sexual creatures, that longing for a father figure was sexualized too and became homosexuality. Just some psychobabble, what do I know?
I just really do not buy the innate argument, and I think some of the internet perversion discussion going on explains that well. Have you guys heard of Furries? It was on CSI once! It’s these people who are sexually attracted to people wearing giant animal costumes. It’s apparently a whole big thing. But there is no way you can argue with a straight face that anybody can be born with an innate sexual attraction to humans in giant panda costumes. No, it must be some learned perversion, maybe something happened to turn them off regular naked people, maybe they took one too many trips to the zoo, who knows, but there is no way it is innate, even if it is a fundamental part of their sexual identity.
AdrianG on October 10, 2008 at 4:07 PM
I object to homosexual marriage on a civil basis as most of my points have argued the consequences of such a ruling. In order to be truly non-discriminatory civil society has top turn itself upside down and inside out in order to accommodate tiny minorities which is unacceptable imo.
Failing to legalise homosexual marriage is not a tyranny of the majority. It is upholding the most basic building block of civillisation. You can commit your life to whomever you please without legal recognition.
aengus on October 10, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Ever been to Thailand? There’s a number of bars where men hang out. However, they don’t look like men. You don’t find that out till you’ve downed 7 Singapore slings and woken up next to the last turkey in the shop.
Erm, at least that’s what I’ve heard.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Since when has HA morphed into this reflexive left-of-right middle-of-the road libertarianism?
I understand the leftist trolls, joy about the prospect of gay marriage, but the fact that so many of HA’s supposed “conservatives” side with them, and bash Christianity with the same gusto as the liberal troll, is just amazing.
pseudonominus on October 10, 2008 at 4:08 PM
there is no law in connecticut legalizing gay marriage…its only ‘legal’ because 4 black-robed thugs say it is. this just illustrates the unaccountable power of the courts to say a law, or constitution means whatever they say it does…
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Interesting point. There is a line in the New testament (the hypothetical about the woman taken as wife by four brothers in succession) that suggests angles are sexless.
Though the Old Testament may be more specific. I would warn against using the gender pronouns of the English translations, as they may not exist in the Greek and Hebrew texts.
Count to 10 on October 10, 2008 at 4:09 PM
Another win for state’s rights! God Bless Connecticut and America.
Constant Parrhesia on October 10, 2008 at 4:09 PM
JetBoy, I have no problem with homosexuals, the Godfather of my kids is a homosexual, but biblicaly it is not accepted. Sorry, just the facts, that is a losing argument. Take in consideration that people commit sin constantly, and we all have a “thorn” in our side, we all have fallen short in relation to biblical text and Gods words, and leave it at that.
God won’t abandon you, and other real Christians won’t either. It is the actions that are more important, you know the shame of homosexuality that is “paraded” just like I know the shame of heterosexuality that is “paraded” as film”.
That unfortunately is what drives some of the hateful comments from “christians”, the stereotype. They would be surprised at how many people they know, are what they “hate”.
right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:09 PM
And enlightenment is something that will elude you for quite a long time, my friend.
But, go on with your hatred of all who disbelieve with you. I seem to recall you’ll find a lot of similar thinkers in the Middle East.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 4:09 PM
why I am not surprised you would go to Thailand where a certain form of sex is rampant…
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:09 PM
SaintOlaf on October 10, 2008 at 4:10 PM
It amazes me how people can white wash a sin.. Sin is Sin Right is right and wrong is wrong. There is no in between. God has called homosexual acts sin -so be it.
Bullhead on October 10, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Quite the world traveler, aren’t we Madison. :P
HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 4:10 PM
another ignorant ASSumption on your part
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Jude 1:7, “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
1 Corinthians 6:9, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind…”
Leviticus 18:22, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”
1 Timothy 1:10, “For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine…”
However ya slice it, God don’t like it. To move our moral foundation away from Christendom and toward the whims of judges augers poorly for our families, our health, you name it.
Question autonomy.
Akzed on October 10, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Bill Buckley was one of the conservative ideals, and I think you’ll find he had some quite interesting arguments on social concerns that most people don’t expect.
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 4:10 PM
So you never considered that your views are wrong, or at least need refining?
right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Nah. I like the idea that he was doing some Congressional Fact Finding, like Nancy in Syria.
But this brings up the other part about “Equal Protection”. What about the equal protection for heterosexuals in the bathroom? Men and women are seperated so that no one in the bathrom has sexual interest in anyone else, there, so that all cn feel comfortable in the most private of spaces. But homosexuals always had the great advantage of being stuck with those they are attracted to, as if I would have been allowed to take showers with the cheerleaders. If we are going on this “equal protection” thing, then gay men and gay women, together, should have their own bathroom – they only need one since it is impossible to partition gays by sexual attraction, except in a pair of 1 gay man + 1 lesbian. Equal protection!
progressoverpeace on October 10, 2008 at 4:11 PM
I think that’s what most people hate about gays, it’s the fact that being gay defines them. It seems that every aspect of their life has come to ,in some way, convey the fact that they are indeed GAY, but that seems typical of most protected groups.
DFCtomm on October 10, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Why am I not surprised that you’re dense enough to think that wasn’t a joke?
Oh, maybe it’s this:
MadisonConservative on October 10, 2008 at 4:12 PM
Here in the US, the law is supposed to be constrained by the constitution (a radical concept that most seem to have forgotten). There is no authorization for the legislative branch to create law that prohibits gays from marrying. There is also no authorization for the legislative branch to create law that segregates the english language, or act as the arbiter of english language definitions.
LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:12 PM
I understand your opposition to gay marriage. I was the same, but when you have GOOD FRIENDS, LIFE LONG FRIENDS that are affected, it changes things.
I am a conservative, but if that is not so because I love my friends, well too bad. Don’t label me. I am not a troll, have hair in all the right places and I am not green. :P
HornetSting on October 10, 2008 at 4:12 PM
…no, and he didn’t speak against check kiting, but he did against sin…and, for that matter, as some have mentioned here (all over the place), he spoke against fornication. Paul, in Romans and Galatians, was more specific.
The “red words” might “outrank” the black words, but it’s all Scripture….
…Moses was a prophet.
Now…you’re doing your duty as a prophet, recording your inspiration for future generations in a book you know is going to sell…why would you include musings?
Do we have any of his other musings? I like the Beatles, but the Stones are too naughty for me. I like the open-toed sandals, but the closed-toe are fetching, as well.
How many legislators or justices include musings in their decisions…and imagine that you’re not writing for your own amusement, but has the Eternal Holy and Just God as your editor.
I think that this whole line of interpretation says a whole lot more about the weaselly, legalistic ways of modern man and his agendas than it does about Moses.
Puritan1648 on October 10, 2008 at 4:13 PM
sure its just a ‘joke’ duhhhhhhhh moron.
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:13 PM
Dull.
LimeyGeek on October 10, 2008 at 4:14 PM
I hope you were being sarcastic…but just in case.
No, not states rights, judicial power.
States rights would be where the state actually votes on the issue…not where a few unelected people make up the minds and laws for many.
right2bright on October 10, 2008 at 4:14 PM
yeah and the constitution is whatever a majority of black-robed thugs says it is…right. we don’t have a democracy, or a republic, just a judicial oligarchy.
but thats OK with people like you as long as they rule in your favor…
right4life on October 10, 2008 at 4:15 PM
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