Of course that includes anyone who is not a Moveon Democrat.

If this is the average American, it’s no wonder we’re about to elect Jimmy Carter II to the presidency. Sheeese…

edgehead on October 9, 2008 at 8:50 AM

In my humble opinion I think it’s a heck of a lot closer to Osama Obama then it is to Jimmy Carter Two. Barack is an order taker. He gets his orders from terrorists, both foreign and domestic. I honestly think he is the original Machurian Candidate. Again, just my humble opinion.

If they’re recording calls outside of those parameters, they’re explicitly violating the law and breaking that promise.

Might as well get used to it. Once President Obama gets control of all the powers that Bush ordered, the whole country will be under surveillance.

You know, then, exactly which directives govern this sort of monitoring. It used to be that, once it was found and identified for what it was, you burned it. One certainly didn’t talk about it. I know of two cases where that didn’t happen in a timely fashion, and two careers went down in flames. It was the right call, both times. Regardless of the immediate intelligence value what might be gained isn’t always worth the cost of the violation of the US entity’s rights.

People might not agree with all of those rules, but they are there, and they make sense. I did my 20, too, same stuff, in a few different places. There’s are good reasons the Agency has restrictions placed on it. You know it, and I know it. I wish everybody else had that same sense of “loose lips sink ships.”

I dunno, Rider. I just wish someone had reminded these folks about what happens when you talk out of school. Why they haven’t been called on it, I’m not sure. Maybe things aren’t what they used to be.

massive eyeroll…

it’s not the case that “defusing a single IED makes the whole thing worth it”; but it’s closer to that than “the Contitution is being shredded by the Bush administration”

gimme a break

I’m not, but then I think privacy is a right.

philnewkirk on October 9, 2008 at 3:27 PM

And a free election is not?

In general I am far less disturbed by this than I am by ACORN’s massive voter fraud, etc.

AnotherOpinion on October 9, 2008 at 2:44 PM

I’m not, but then I think privacy is a right.

Recording for jollies goes too far. Recording for analysis before disposal… I could see. In general I am far less disturbed by this than I am by ACORN’s massive voter fraud, etc.

Press 1 for Girl

Press 2 for Boy

Press 911911 for Death to America

- The Cat

(And I guess we all now know what day job Ace at Ace of Spades must have).

Here’s a clue from someone who’s been there, done that, and isn’t allowed to wear the T-shirts about it.
.
useful (but not life altering) information was not acted on and basically destroyed, simply because we had a reasonable suspicion that those involved, despite being at a location outside the US, were in fact US citizens
.
Wind Rider on October 9, 2008 at 1:02 PM

.
Our paths may have crossed.

‘Bush lied; peopled spied”.

jim m on October 9, 2008 at 1:14 PM

When Sen. Obama is President, you won’t be saying that. And I’ll call you a whiner. Deal?

How do I know? I did basically the same job these two did for over 20 years while I was in the military.

And yes, while I’ll confirm that what they’re talking about does occur (operators giving attention to ‘non-target’ material) – it is part and parcel with what we are asking these young men and women to do. Typically, very dedicated and professional young men and women, with a grave responsibility placed upon them – to use their skills and talents to identify information that can save people’s lives. Literally.

We then ask them to do this noble work – despite the immensity and complexity of doing the job correctly, in sometimes very, very frustrating circumstance. The description of looking for a needle in a haystack sounds like child’s play compared to what people charged with this task are asked to do – and do well.

The situation they describe is symptomatic of what they were actually involved in. Every piece of communication in transit, by any means available, at any given time, could contain the Essential Element of Information that gets an IED disarmed. Or foils an airline hijack plot. Or detects the transfer of a Chemical, Biological, or Radiological device to a terrorist organization. Thing is, those golden nuggets are hidden away, in all that ‘noise’. It is helpful, that, over time, people will become repetitive, and/or sloppy, so you develop some pretty good ideas where to look for the nuggets, which cuts things down. But still, there is often times a certain amount of uncertainty, particularly when dealing with an ‘anonymous’ data stream – is it an exchange of information about the successful purchase of baby diapers, or is ‘baby diapers’ a substitute for something else? Drugs? An IED? The determination falls on the shoulders of the people doing the work we’re talking about. If it’s two guys, who’ve never discussed either diapers or kids at all, it’s suspicious. If it’s two women talking about their kids, not so much. The point is, you cannot make that determination without following along at least long enough to get a sense of what’s happening. And sometimes, when the targets you’re looking for share basically public access systems, you come across the types of material mentioned in the article.

Is this kind of stuff distractionary and does it get listened to anyway? Yep. Question – when was the last time, honestly, you drove by a car wreck without even the urge to see what happened? Same principle applies.

Now, as for them complaining about specific targets being kept on their search lists longer than they felt necessary. That one is strictly a judgement call, with damned few examples one way or the other I can think of to say who’s right, particularly in a given situation I’m not directly involved in (and probably wouldn’t be discussing if I was). Sure you can tell yourself that a target is ‘gone’ – and be proved wrong very shortly afterwards when it pops up again. And it is not only possible, but probable, that the numbers they’re complaining about were added to the list got there through some method other than simply being stumbled across.

I’ve always found it somewhat humorous when people spin themselves into an outrage that potentially, but highly unlikely, a completely anonymous person, who has no real idea who they are, may be exposed to their kinky phone sex lives in the course of doing an extremely important and demanding task.

Here’s a clue from someone who’s been there, done that, and isn’t allowed to wear the T-shirts about it.

We just don’t freekin care. Literally, while it may supply a passing chuckle at 3:45am in the middle of an otherwise “bleeder” mid-shift, we really don’t give a shit. People’s kinky sex lives are not what we’re looking for.

And these people probably have no apprehension at all that any number of people, working for the financial institutions that support their daily lives, have ready access to all of their financial information – which usually includes multiple ways to identify them, not the least of which is usually their full name and address, and includes all those credit card charges to this and that thing their neighbors may find to be morally questionable activity.

Are there safeguards in place to protect American citizens from exploitation by this system? Absolutely. In a cleared environment, I could easily relate at least two incidents I was personally involved with, where useful (but not life altering) information was not acted on and basically destroyed, simply because we had a reasonable suspicion that those involved, despite being at a location outside the US, were in fact US citizens. And that was the level of caution and sense of responsibility that was ingrained from the first day of training to do the job, and repeatedly thereafter, at least from my experience.

The general sense against even conducting covert intelligence surveillance has always been “gentlemen do not open and read other people’s mail”. While the chivalry of the statement, and the sentiment, is admirable, in practical terms, it’s usually a good way to set yourself up for a baseball bat to the mouth, you could have seen coming.

Do the alphabet agencies require oversight? Absolutely. But please don’t ever mistake one or two disgruntled and intellectually confused individuals spouting off about sensational red herrings drive the train.

ACORN just called… they want you back at work.

CC

CapedConservative on October 9, 2008 at 12:25 PM

I can’t wait ’til President Obama continues to expand the power of the executive branch. :D

If the satellite phone number belongs to an Army officer instead of a terrorist, why are we wasting resources on surveilling it?

Good question. As far as I’m concerned, it’s theft of tax payer resources to do so.

The NDA is not to the death; it’s to whenever the NDA says it is.

baldilocks on October 9, 2008 at 12:15 PM

And what did I say? Death!

philnewkirk on October 9, 2008 at 12:11 PM

ACORN just called… they want you back at work.

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