Breaking: Bailout vote underway; Update: 218; Update: 263-171
posted at 1:07 pm on October 3, 2008 by Allahpundit
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Magic Eightball says all signs point to yes, with both Hoyer and Blunt expressing “confidence.” If it fails, we’re likely looking at the Dow falling off a cliff and calls for Pelosi to quit.
A sweaty, panicky blogger chambers a single round and waits for the paddles to hit an economy in cardiac arrest…
Update: The vote’s not done yet but they’re already at 231. Unless a swath of members switch to no at the last minute, it’s a done deal.
Update: Sugary Senate pork made the medicine go down: 263-171 as the gavel comes down, with some 90 Republicans voting yes. The Dow has suddenly dropped by 80 points or so, but I think I know why — it’s pessimists like me unloading their portfolios to capitalize on the post-bailout spike ahead of what they expect will be another downturn next week. (I didn’t unload, but thought about it.)
Standby for the roll of glory bitter resignation!
Update: Democrats predictably credit The One, who leaned on members to switch and push this through.
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Amen, Bishop.
HornetSting on October 3, 2008 at 2:27 PM
Not that any of this really matters, we will soon be bailing out all 57 states every other year too. The checks on out of control spending are now gone, the feds will cover you if dumb decisions are made on the state level.
This bailout is the biggest load of bullshit since the ‘war on poverty’ started.
Bishop on October 3, 2008 at 2:28 PM
This is exactly how I see the situation.
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 2:28 PM
Exactly! And with Obama as the CIC of The Blue States what do you think the outcome would be?
Oldnuke on October 3, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Again, it may not even happen during our lifetime. We might be able to patch it somehow, make things work in the short term, maybe even in the long term somewhat – give us another century or so. But it is inevitable. Entropy is unstoppable. It will happen eventually.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 3, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Seriously, I want to know: who’s seceding, and where?
philwynk on October 3, 2008 at 2:29 PM
I’m gonna buy a herd…and put those sheep in my NEW 1 million dollar lake house….two birds with ONE stone.
HornetSting on October 3, 2008 at 2:29 PM
If you put 50 “thou” into this kitchen, I can easily get you 80 thou more when you sell.
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 2:30 PM
No one yet. You’ll know it when it happens.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 3, 2008 at 2:30 PM
Ok folks, I don’t like the bill but I am not buying into the end of the world or even our nation. I was pretty unhappy with the Chrysler bail out but it turned out all right. I don’t think we are this easily taken down. Feel free to rub my nose in this in a few years if I turn out to be really really wrong.
Cindy Munford on October 3, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Sounds like Dogbert. “Throw your money into this hole…”
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 3, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Q: So where do we go from here?
A: TERM LIMITS! TERM LIMITS! TERM LIMITS!
db on October 3, 2008 at 2:32 PM
I should hope so, it would break my heart.
It also implies that conservatism and founding principles can’t win the arena of ideas; which I reject.
Spirit of 1776 on October 3, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Oldnuke on October 3, 2008 at 2:29 PM
Hollywood could act us to death?
Cindy Munford on October 3, 2008 at 2:32 PM
When the federal government reaches the point where it systematically plunders peoples’ property and liberty it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it. I’m sure we’ll try to alter it. But failing that, we have the right to abolish it and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to us shall seem most likely to effect our safety and happiness.
ManlyRash on October 3, 2008 at 2:33 PM
db on October 3, 2008 at 2:32 PM
I am probably wrong but didn’t SCOTUS say that term limits are unconstitutional?
Cindy Munford on October 3, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Hey Grue, would you like a sheep steak with bbq sauce. I have all this wool now and need to “thin the herd”.
HornetSting on October 3, 2008 at 2:34 PM
The arena of ideas will be gradually closed off to conservatives starting on Jan 20, 2009.
ManlyRash on October 3, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Mine too. So we’ll have New New York, and New York,
and New New Mexico, and New Mexico. Maybe Obama was right about the 57 thing.
btw, why secede, since New Mexico’s already a country, and not a state, right? :)
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 2:34 PM
So when, in January, they run around screaming that the healthcare system is failing – you won’t mind being reminded that we warned you that this is just a foot in the door?
lorien1973 on October 3, 2008 at 2:35 PM
Hold the sauce. :)
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 3, 2008 at 2:35 PM
New Mexico is the FIFTH RING OF HELL. Good riddance, I’m going back to Texas, Daddy.
DOW just shit the bed.
HornetSting on October 3, 2008 at 2:36 PM
We hit Zero yet?
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 3, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Thats been happening for years already… its called the Public School System, and American Colleges.
Romeo13 on October 3, 2008 at 2:37 PM
.
Shouldn’t, but made me laugh.
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 2:37 PM
DING DING DING
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 3, 2008 at 2:37 PM
lorien1973 on October 3, 2008 at 2:35 PM
Sorry, I am not a glum and doom person.
Cindy Munford on October 3, 2008 at 2:38 PM
DOW, was up 280 pre vote…
Now down 60…
Romeo13 on October 3, 2008 at 2:38 PM
It took a constitutional amendment for presidential term limits. This bailout legislation — if it turns out as bad as many experts are predicting — could be the ammunition we need to finally get congressional term limits put to a vote by the American people.
db on October 3, 2008 at 2:38 PM
Not yet, but Obama hasn’t weighed in on this bail out vote yet.
Want some mashed potatoes with sheep gravy? Damn herd.
HornetSting on October 3, 2008 at 2:39 PM
The financial stocks seem to be up big, 20-30%. Wall St. tks you peons.
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 2:39 PM
Romeo13 on October 3, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Amen. More and more conservatives will move to home schooling.
Cindy Munford on October 3, 2008 at 2:39 PM
If I may butt in here:
There’s a difference between the divides then and now. Then, the nation had a single, common understanding of morals and virtues, but different theories concerning how to apply them to civic policy. Today, there are two completely different moral systems, based on entirely separate views of the world.
They were attempting to reconcile the different political views of a populace that was not only pretty much entirely Christian, but pretty much entirely Protestant Christian.
Today, we’re trying to reconcile two general philosophical categories that are light years apart from each other, and don’t even agree concerning basic concepts of right and wrong. This is even more difficult to reconcile than Kurds and Shiite Muslims. It’s more like trying to reconcile Ancient Egyptians with modern Europeans.
Partitioning the nation in two is the only solution to the problem that will not certainly end in civil war. Please make no mistake: the changes that will be initiated by an Obama presidency will make civil war unavoidable, if not now then soon. Partition or secession is the peaceful alternative.
We’d not be abandoning our countrymen; we’d be providing a safe haven for as many as wish to escape into it.
philwynk on October 3, 2008 at 2:40 PM
This is what I call “stablization” of the market. Up and down, just like Oprah’s weight.
HornetSting on October 3, 2008 at 2:40 PM
We go to Alaska, since they already have a strong secession movement there, and it is rich in resources. We then sell those resources to the U.S., and use the profits to buy Canada, then we ship the liberal Canadians to the U.S. and were set.
DFCtomm on October 3, 2008 at 2:40 PM
I’ve always said that the biggest failures of George W. Bush was fueling the liberal movement and not putting an end to reckless Clinton Administration Policies.
This past weeks bill passing is a result of both.
If McCain manages to lose this thing, I’m sending a Thank-You note to all my liberal friends and family for ushering in the New Age of Conservatism in Rebellion of the recent and coming butt-raping Obama and company has in store for this great nation.
We’ll start small.
Meet at my house after sundown.
cntrlfrk on October 3, 2008 at 2:41 PM
db on October 3, 2008 at 2:38 PM
Count me in. I have been begging for at least a part time legislature for years.
Cindy Munford on October 3, 2008 at 2:41 PM
The arena of ideas will be gradually closed off to conservatives starting on Jan 20, 2009.
ManlyRash on October 3, 2008 at 2:34 PM
We still have arenas, we will just have to meet in darkened basements and deserted buildings, operating like Chinese churches are forced to do.
I don’t have much faith that the dems will allow people to wholesale criticize Obasco, they will drag your ass into court on some sort of racism charge.
Think it can’t happen? Look north and find the living, breathing example.
Bishop on October 3, 2008 at 2:41 PM
I agree. However I read somewhere that right now slightly less than 50% of the American populace pays zero taxes. They still vote. When that imbalance gets large enough those of us still paying taxes will have no chance at the polls.
Oldnuke on October 3, 2008 at 2:43 PM
We have the First Amendment. Makes it a little more difficult to do.
phronesis on October 3, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Time to go sharpen my pitchfork, good day to all.
Turn that frown upside down. /S
Hornet.
HornetSting on October 3, 2008 at 2:44 PM
So when, in January, they run around screaming that the healthcare system is failing – you won’t mind being reminded that we warned you that this is just a foot in the door?
lorien1973 on October 3, 2008 at 2:35 PM
Ding ding ding! Save this post just in case Obimbo wins, you can have gloating points for accurately telling the future.
Bishop on October 3, 2008 at 2:45 PM
Sorry, wrong. Decidely a mixed bag.
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 2:45 PM
That’s fine. I’m not going to rain on the parade of gloom until shit really hits the fan. But look, you wrote a good post, you deserve a good answer. In our founding slavery wasn’t even able to be mentioned. It was GAGGED! GAGGED in Congress. That’s worse then abortion. Liberality? We’ve seen more successful action under that mantle with Wilson and FDR. After both we had a withdraw of government intervention.
We need more RRs.
Spirit of 1776 on October 3, 2008 at 2:46 PM
If you hadn’t noticed, the First Amendment’s umbrella has gotten a lot smaller within the past few decades.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 3, 2008 at 2:46 PM
Great! That’s two of us, so far. We need to get others on board for Congressional Term Limits.
For my “revolution”, we’ll meet in a public place… in daylight.
db on October 3, 2008 at 2:46 PM
AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!!
cannonball on October 3, 2008 at 2:47 PM
Brilliant. I thought this much would have been self-evident to spiritof1776.
ManlyRash on October 3, 2008 at 2:47 PM
Yep.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 3, 2008 at 2:47 PM
Get yourself a penumbra.
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 2:48 PM
We have the First Amendment. Makes it a little more difficult to do.
phronesis on October 3, 2008 at 2:43 PM
No kidding? Really…that free speech thingie? That’s an amendment to what the left refers to as a “living breathing” Constitution, right?
Fairness doctrine.
Bishop on October 3, 2008 at 2:49 PM
This is confusing. Please clarify.
ManlyRash on October 3, 2008 at 2:49 PM
I just want to shift tracks to say this is a good point re: the next crisis.
Spirit of 1776 on October 3, 2008 at 2:49 PM
Right after this legislation passed Barney Frank said that they now need to pass some real legislation to fix the problem. Evidently $850 billion was not enough.
Dasher on October 3, 2008 at 2:49 PM
To quote Agent Smith from the Matrix: what use is a phone call when you lack the ability to speak?
We can easily win the marketplace of ideas so long as it’s a free market. That has not existed in this country for at least 4 decades, and we’re losing ground, not gaining it. Leftists targeted public schools, universities, news outlets, entertainment, and law. They virtually dominate all of these, and are actively preventing any competing ideas from examination. No matter how good your ideas are, you will not win in this environment.
The correct way to carry on the debate is to establish a nation that adheres to libertarian principles and demonstrate by comparison how far superior these are to socialism.
philwynk on October 3, 2008 at 2:49 PM
Channeling de Tocqueville?
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public’s money.
Alexis de Tocqueville
A democratic government is the only one in which those who vote for a tax can escape the obligation to pay it.
Alexis de Tocqueville
DFCtomm on October 3, 2008 at 2:50 PM
It’s not evident to very many people that I know, and nobody speaks of it in the common media.
philwynk on October 3, 2008 at 2:51 PM
Wilson and FDR (LBJ too) had more success implementing their policies then Carter or Obama will. After both, the country came back on the pendulum the other way. In fact what is scary about Obama is that he echoes the past. Past that we already rolled back once.
Yes, I agree the government is too big. Yes, I agree it overreaches. But it represents the people. To change government, have to change/mobilize people.
Spirit of 1776 on October 3, 2008 at 2:51 PM
Just on the tube; Pres Bush and Sec Paulson having a ‘good job Brownie’ moment.
Looks like Paulson is toast.
rockhauler on October 3, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Here’s how I feel now:
LINK
cannonball on October 3, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Polls I’ve seen show atheistic percentages relatively stable. Majority of Americans consider themselves Christian.
Spirit of 1776 on October 3, 2008 at 2:53 PM
:-) Sorry, I have to admit I’ve never read de Tocqueville. I think I was channeling Rush Limbaugh. But that quote you posted is exactly what I was so ineptly trying to say.
Oldnuke on October 3, 2008 at 2:53 PM
So the libertarians form the left of the new state, with the conservatives on the right?
Btw, why not “target” a state, and take it over by urging people to move there. A purple state, like Colorado.
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Since I’m in Massachusetts, I was kinda hoping for Maine. ;) But you’ve got a point about the resources.
philwynk on October 3, 2008 at 2:53 PM
I sure am glad they rescued the stock market. It was at +250 before the vote and now it is down -16. Great work!
carbon_footprint on October 3, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Yeah, you and me and likely a good majority of the rest of us as well.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 3, 2008 at 2:54 PM
I still think an outright prosecution soley for speech would be a little difficult to pull off. Unless Obama tried a court packing scheme, a la FDR.
phronesis on October 3, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Let’s review the bidding to-date. Those who screamed for restrictions on short sellers got them. That did not help. Those who screamed for a bailout package got it; all it can do is change the pace of the bear market from a crash to a bleed, as if that will help. Those who screamed for massive liquidity infusions, extraordinary leat did not help. Don’t like mark-to-market accounting and prefer self-delusion? You got it. And while we are at it, the target federal funds rate has been lowered from 5.25% to 2.00%. That did not help.
So let’s say the target rate is cut to 1.25% or 1.50% and we keep going lower. What will the perma-screamers demand of national policy then?
KentAllard on October 3, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Yeah, well, it’s pretty unfriendly to the current residents of the state, but I was thinking something similar.
philwynk on October 3, 2008 at 2:55 PM
ROLLED BACK??!! LOL. You do live in dreamland. The policies of Wilson, FDR and LBJ have been steadily advancing and saw fulfillment yet again in today’s bailout. Whatever it is you are smoking, stop smoking it.
That will start happening in the red states. At some point the Feds will go too far and it will be the last straw.
ManlyRash on October 3, 2008 at 2:55 PM
A slim, fast little gem of a read.
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 2:55 PM
This argument is cyclical. What foundation was better then ours? A more libertarian one would have failed as did the AoC. If you acknowledge the value of the beginning, then you must acknowledge the beginning didn’t determine steadfastness to that beginning. Therefore there is no guarantee that it wouldn’t happen again and again. So more and more subdivisions.
I believe in the preamble. I’d rather fight for the union. I still see Americans as my brothers, blue or red.
Spirit of 1776 on October 3, 2008 at 2:56 PM
What was that quote about a nation being destroyed from within?
If these politicians are the best we can do then we are in deep trouble.
Bishop on October 3, 2008 at 2:56 PM
That doesn’t stop a good portion of them. Otherwise things would lean decidedly more to the right….
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 3, 2008 at 2:56 PM
Don’t forget birds of a feather: those who are more conservatively inclined are moving to red states; those who want the gummint taking care of them flock to blue states.
ManlyRash on October 3, 2008 at 2:56 PM
You need to read this.
And maybe this.
philwynk on October 3, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Yeah, it says something about human nature. But that’s part of the American experiment: universal suffrage.
Spirit of 1776 on October 3, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Sure, that’s true enough.
Spirit of 1776 on October 3, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Let’s review the bidding to-date. Those who screamed for restrictions on short sellers got them. That did not help. Those who screamed for a bailout package got it; all it can do is change the pace of the bear market from a crash to a bleed, as if that will help. Those who screamed for massive liquidity infusions, extraordinary lending facilities and lower-quality collateral got them. That did not help. Don’t like mark-to-market accounting and prefer self-delusion? You got it. And while we are at it, the target federal funds rate has been lowered from 5.25% to 2.00%. That did not help.
So let’s say the target rate is cut to 1.25% or 1.50% and we keep going lower. What will the perma-screamers demand of national policy then?
KentAllard on October 3, 2008 at 2:58 PM
CO is a good choice for several reasons:
Atlas Shrugs.
I used to live there so I already know the short cuts.
The libs there are concentrated in a few places, and don’t have long-time ties.
Vast natural resources and beauty.
I like skiing.
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 2:59 PM
The divide, as phil pointed out earlier, is so profound and irreconcilable, that it likely will not ever be bridged.
Like it or not, we are steadily becoming two separate nations. At some point, you will be forced to choose.
ManlyRash on October 3, 2008 at 3:00 PM
I still think an outright prosecution soley for speech would be a little difficult to pull off. Unless Obama tried a court packing scheme, a la FDR.
phronesis on October 3, 2008 at 2:54 PM
The democratic Canadians probably thought the same thing.
There are already ‘hate-speech’ laws, it wouldn’t be that difficult to enhance them to include all sorts of terms that normal people take for granted; saying something is “gay” might be overheard by a homosexual and that would be bad, mean, unfair, etc. etc.
Having your feelings hurt and being “marginalized” has almost become a business, it’s why we’re forced to endure lawsuits for firing an inept fool who happens to be a minority.
Bishop on October 3, 2008 at 3:01 PM
I’m in dreamland? How many blue eagles do you see in shops today?
What can I say? Obviously you are right. Republicans are fascists. You win. Reagan won because he wanted to expand government.
Spirit of 1776 on October 3, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Free State Project – freestateproject.org
LimeyGeek on October 3, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Things are pretty screwed up right now.
phronesis on October 3, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Guys from what I have read the founding fathers expected things like this to happen. I get the impression that they believed we would be in a constant cycle of having to re-establish the principles of liberty, and they didn’t always mean with the vote. Jefferson really, really liked guns.
DFCtomm on October 3, 2008 at 3:02 PM
I’ve made my choice. I’m with the fathers.
Spirit of 1776 on October 3, 2008 at 3:02 PM
The problem with banning short sellers is they are a buyer. If you ban them the price could go to zero. A lower buyer is better than no buyer.
Dasher on October 3, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Come on down… I’ve got a couple of spare rooms here in Colorado until you can find a place. South Denver, so its an easy drive to Colorado Springs… or up into the City.
Romeo13 on October 3, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Fox hasn’t posted a roll call yet.
Cindy Munford on October 3, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Wrong polls. The divide is not between “Christian” and “atheist,” it’s between “Judeo-Christian traditionalism” versus “modernism.” There are lots and lots of Christians who fall into the latter category. And there are lots of people who intellectually accept notions that are the product of traditionalism who are atheists (think Thomas Paine.)
And of course, the divide isn’t really black and white, it’s a more or less smooth grade from one to the other with lots of folks in the middle who pick and choose from both camps according to convenience.
The better poll for predicting this divide is the one that self-identifies as “liberal” or “conservative.”
philwynk on October 3, 2008 at 3:04 PM
Would seem so, however I wonder if the passing of the baby boomer generation won’t help considerably ease the tensions. They’ve always been a royal pain in the nation’s ass.
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 3:04 PM
I don’t see them as “Americans” at all.
That’s the point.
They may be born here, and have a funny accent, but they’re not Americans. They’re just resident meatsacks.
LimeyGeek on October 3, 2008 at 3:04 PM
Federalists said that if Jefferson was elected, the nation wouldn’t survive. Republicans said if Jefferson didn’t win, the nation would become a monarchy. It’s not like this hyperbole has been batted around before.
Spirit of 1776 on October 3, 2008 at 3:05 PM
http://www.boomerdeathcounter.com/
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 3:05 PM
I’m with you. Americans tend to be born abroad :)
JiangxiDad on October 3, 2008 at 3:06 PM
Thanks, I may get around to it someday, but there are so many books so little time. Can’t read em all. I’ve still got some Marcus Aurellius laying around somewhere that I’ve got to finish and I want to re-read Gibbon’s The History of the Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire. That alone will take a while. I sometimes feel like Burgess Meredith in that Twilight Zone episode after he stepped on his glasses.
Oldnuke on October 3, 2008 at 3:07 PM
NellE on October 3, 2008 at 3:07 PM
So, again, why is the market tanking if this bill was supposed to help it?
Blake on October 3, 2008 at 3:07 PM
BINGO.
I seriously believe the Founding Fathers saw much of this coming, and knew their actions would need to eventually be repeated. Such is the nature of mortality. Such is Entropy.
C’est la vie.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on October 3, 2008 at 3:07 PM
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