McCain: “It’s time to fix the problem”

posted at 6:05 pm on September 29, 2008 by Allahpundit

Nothing much of interest here, really, except an obligatory shot at Obama near the end. Now would have been the perfect time for Maverick to suspend his campaign to deal with the crisis. Too bad he played that card last week.

Meanwhile, Ace is apologizing to his readers for (a) listening to numerous experts who are telling him we’re in a gravely serious situation and (b) wanting to do something about it.



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wise_man on September 29, 2008 at 7:54 PM

This country desperately needs rational adults to forge a compromise that a majority can swallow.

As to the “debate” here: On the one hand, you are an irrational, greedy, immature “chicken little,” claiming that the sky is falling if you fear an economic meltdown and want federal intervention. On the other hand you are being rational if you think the passage of a bailout is the end of our capitalist system and democracy, claim you are hoarding food and ammo, and want those responsible to be beheaded.

So, I’m ready for my beheading now.

Loxodonta on September 29, 2008 at 8:06 PM

Personally I think Pelosi goaded them into voting no, and likely had a few on her caucus vote no as insurance. Now, in a few days when panic is high enough, they can pass a bill that will say whatever they please.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 7:29 PM

I think she even went further than that as I said earlier today. She sandbagged the Repubs today. First her and friends took to the floor and got shockingly ugly for the cameras. Then the vote. She knew it was not going to pass. In fact I would go so far as to stipulate if it got close she would have more Dems vote against it.

Otherwise I’m forced to believe that Nitwit Nancy brought the most important bill in her career to the floor not knowing the outcome. As Speaker you never bring a bill, any bill to the floor not already knowing the outcome.

Now with CNN etc hand and hand they will be bitch slapping the repubs until Thursday. Then if it suits her they will pass a bill.

patrick neid on September 29, 2008 at 8:06 PM

Don’t confuse expectations of equal treatment as spite. These people deserve what they get and I don’t deserve to have to bail them out or have to compete with them when the field is not equal.

I ask no one to bail me out. NO ONE! I expect others to do the same and accept responsibility for their poor choices like mature adults are expected to. Only people with a child’s mindset believe that “mommy” is going to kiss the boo-boo and make it all go away.

If you can’t pay the price of your behavior, then don’t engage in that behavior.

csdeven on September 29, 2008 at 7:55 PM

Spot-on. The more I think about it, the more this reminds me of Amnesty. Amnesty is forgiving the illegal actions of illegal aliens. It doesn’t solve the problem, it just makes it worse down the road by encouraging people to continue their illegal ‘immigration’ activities, knowing that, in the future, the government will simply pass another amnesty for them.

I think the same applies here. People are going to continue their unwise choices, if they get bailed out like this. The only way this doesn’t encourage more of the same, where we will need another bailout in the future, is if people get out there and explain the true source of this crisis. I see some Republicans trying to do that, but the Democrats and the mass media are not going to go along with that, because it pins the source of the crisis on the Democrat Party and liberal policies.

Michael in MI on September 29, 2008 at 8:06 PM

DAMN RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Old Hippie Vet on September 29, 2008 at 7:58 PM

YEAH!

The bailout shills that are frothing at the mouth are probably neck deep in this mess. They are so entrenched in the system that caused this, they cannot imagine their world not being run under those conditions. Ergo, total panic that the economy is going down the drain.

They don’t understand us because they chose not to rely on themselves but rather relied on a system based on unfettered avarice.

As it has been said before….

BOO FRICKIN HOO

csdeven on September 29, 2008 at 8:07 PM

I think this vote was a failure in leadership.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:02 PM

Ditto my comment to Loxodonta – Bull Crap. The failure of leadership was not preventing this disaster long ago. Until Dodd, Frank, and Obama’s little whoars at Fannie and Freddie are toted off to prison, let the entire thing collapse. No mas. No mas.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 8:09 PM

I don’t think people are getting what this is about. The purpose of this bill was not to solve any and all problems related to the credit sector for the last decade.

I don’t think you get it Terrye. These same credit institutions that are frozen got this way by selling loans to unqualified buyers. What makes you think that if the government buys all this bad credit, (to free up capital), these same UNRESTRICTED MORONS won’t turn around and do the same thing?

You and Dafydd swore that if we didn’t agree with Bush and McCain on passing the immigration (amnesty) reform bill this would haunt the Republican Party and would be the main issue that would bury us. YOU WERE WRONG THEN AND YOUR WRONG NOW my friend.

Is this current financial crisis going to hurt? Beyond our dreams (nightmares). Will we recover? Most likely, but it may take time and you can bet there won’t be much CREDIT to pass around. And this will be a good thing.

One more thing…….the media is driving the frenzy that the sky is falling and adding to the destruction of the markets. They need to Stfu, just like Pelosi needed to do on the floor this morning when she screwed to pooch.

Rovin on September 29, 2008 at 8:10 PM

csdeven:

Who are these people? They did not break any laws. They thought they were getting real loans. Not all of them are bums or crooks, many of them are young people buying their first homes.

And besides, it is not all about them. This thing will spread way beyond them. Are you so insistent upon punishing someone for getting a zero down loan that you are willing to sacrifice your pension fund or your children’s education?

I mean come on, there are banks failing in Europe, not just here. This is a global crisis.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:10 PM

Some people sound almost spiteful about this, as if they want to see people hurt.

This is not ideology, it is demagoguery.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 7:46 PM

Excellent points. Points that should have been made off the bat. They weren’t.

I guess if I were to put this bailout into language I understand, its justification is of the same spirit as our bankruptcy laws. It’s a bit of “do over” that allows a fundamentally trustworthy business/person (or system, in this case) to recover from mistakes that otherwise would permanently cripple it so that it can start fresh. This fresh start allows it to go on and produce an even better idea/innovation (or economy), all the wiser for learning from its mistakes.

An immediate and viable argument about this particular bailout plan is that it does not require that anyone learn from anything. It will continue the same foolish practices with the addition of another actor (the federal government) being the only real change.

If the spirit of the bailout is the same one as our bankruptcy laws, then I can support it. I only hope that it isn’t another boondoggle waiting to happen.

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 8:10 PM

claim you are hoarding food and ammo, and want those responsible to be beheaded.

Yeah, I know there are quite a few. And if they are, I think we need to establish a code word so we can recognize eachother if this really does go down to zero. You know, all the people who weren’t hoarding guns and bullets? So when someone who has, meets someone from this blog, we can say something to keep ud from getting shot. You know, something like:

Challenge: Flash!

Response: THUNDER!!

wise_man on September 29, 2008 at 8:11 PM

I should say, they weren’t made “off the bat” by the people that could have made the most difference.

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 8:11 PM

Terrye:

No, he wouldn’t do nothing. He would also not stir the country into a frenzy, make normally rational people insane with fear, and try to push a grab-bag bill down the throats of Americans that would further distort market structures (admittedly in a short-term favorable way) only to see the same thing crop up again in 5 years.

Fix the problem at the root. A cleansing fire is healthy for forests and markets when they are both overgrown.

But, hey, I just want people to hurt, right? And I don’t get it will be a TOTAL MELTDOWN OF THE ECONOMY AND WE’LL ALL LIVE IN CAVES AND GRUB FOR ROOTS!!!!

VolMagic on September 29, 2008 at 8:12 PM

Michael in MI on September 29, 2008 at 8:06 PM

You are dead on there. Remember the stimulus package that was supposed to fix all this? The Bear/Sterns bailout that was supposed to fix everything? What have we had, 3 or four more since and all of those were supposed to fix it.

They’ve gone to the well once too often (well, 5 times too often as far as I’m concerned).

csdeven on September 29, 2008 at 8:12 PM

These same credit institutions that are frozen got this way by selling loans to unqualified buyers.

Rovin on September 29, 2008 at 8:10 PM

Forced, either by intimidation or by market pressures, is a more accurate description.

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 8:14 PM

many of them are young people buying their first homes.

At 0% down with ARM’s?

Maybe they shouldn’t have bought a house. I’ve never owned my own home, and I’m to pay because someone didn’t want a good financial base before getting theirs? Please.

VolMagic on September 29, 2008 at 8:14 PM

And he wouldn’t have any dictator powers. My God.

wise_man on September 29, 200

Section I, short title, of the bailout bill: “Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008, Section 2, Purposes: Provides authority to the Treasury Secretary to restore liquidity and stability to the US financial system and to ensure the economic well-being of Americans.”
Well, I don’t know,, I suppose that can be left up to interpretation. The law says one man,, ONE MAN has to ensure the economic well being of Americans. How he does that, and how he gets to define “economic well-being” is up to him. I guess you just have a lot of faith in government and the courts to work this all out. I don’t.

JellyToast on September 29, 2008 at 8:15 PM

A “Purpose” is not an action, Jelly Toast.

wise_man on September 29, 2008 at 8:16 PM

If the spirit of the bailout is the same one as our bankruptcy laws, then I can support it. I only hope that it isn’t another boondoggle waiting to happen.

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 8:10 PM

How can anyone say this after listening to Nancy Pelosi today and hearing what type of crap was loaded into the bill.

This is why we are at this moment in history. Lots of folks want to push this on down the road. Now is the time for the clean-up. It will only get worse.

My dear son served two deployments in the hell hole of Fallujah. He made it back intact. He and other like him are being betrayed by somne in Congress who want to destroy our economic system to rebuild it as some type of quasi Marxist mud pit. Shame on them. We and our children deserve better. My advice to my son is now, get the hell out of the U.S. military. Let Pelosi and Frank and Dodd and Obama find someone else to screw.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 8:17 PM

I don’t think you get it Terrye. These same credit institutions that are frozen got this way by selling loans to unqualified buyers. What makes you think that if the government buys all this bad credit, (to free up capital), these same UNRESTRICTED MORONS won’t turn around and do the same thing?

You guys that keep spouting this crap have totally bought into the liberal media’s lies. Wall Street didn’t just up and one day decide to toss out their credit schedules and totally throw their concept of risk out the window. The government stiff-armed them unhappily into these positions. Were some complicit? Of course. Countrywide is a prime example, and they were the first to go. But to say “Wall Street” is to blame here is to fall face first into the populist trap — and to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Listen to yourselves!

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:19 PM

Rovin:

Immigration? sheesh. And how did that work for you in 2006? McCain is the nominee on one side and Obama on the other. Exactly how do you think that whole immigration thing is going to go when the Democrats have both the White House and the Congress?

I do get it. But this bill was designed to keep the credit crises from deepening right now. It is not about solving all the problems.

Will the people who got those loans do the same thing? Well, since most of the banks and mortgage companies that gave out the loans no longer exist and since Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have been taken over by the government, I don’t think that is a problem.

But right now, I am more worried about losing my job and everything I own. And I did not get one of those loans.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:19 PM

wise_man on September 29, 2008 at 8:11 PM

I know that humor helps. But, I still think calm reason is essential in response to all the swearing, threats, capitalization, and name calling going on here and in the capital.

Loxodonta on September 29, 2008 at 8:20 PM

Rovin:

If you’ll remember, I was on the opposite side of the fence from Terrye and Dafydd over there during the immigration debate. Prime difference? The status quo then was more of the same, and up til now the same is ok. Not great, but ok.

How did you like the status quo today? Hows that 25% loss in value YTD on the S&P treatin’ ya?

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:21 PM

How much did the market drop after it was known that the bill was dead? It seems to me that just before this was announced, the market was down 500 something and then dropped maybe 200 to 250 points after it was announced?

Vince on September 29, 2008 at 8:24 PM

This is not socialism. It is not socialism any more than it is socialistic for the government to come into an area after a natural disaster and take over clean up and pay for it.

It is not half as socialistic as what you will have if a good deal of our private sector lenders have trouble staying afloat. If that happens the government will have to step in anyway just to keep things going.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:25 PM

But right now, I am more worried about losing my job and everything I own. And I did not get one of those loans.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:19 PM

I have a good job and a nice home. As I have said before, if the result is that am jobless and homeless and in a soup line, then so be it. We have been lied to over and over again. No more.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 8:25 PM

Section I, short title, of the bailout bill: “Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008, Section 2, Purposes: Provides authority to the Treasury Secretary to restore liquidity and stability to the US financial system and to ensure the economic well-being of Americans.”

I have a serious question. If the Treasury Secretary is mandated by law to ensure the economic well-being of Americans,,, forget about the bail out for a moment,,, if one man has that kind of power,, what is to say that at some point in the future, the Treasury Secretary just decided to take assets/property/savings/income form citizen A and give to citizen B and C.
Oh god no no no,, I am being paranoid here. That would never happen.
Really??? In a future Obama Presidency with a bunch of community organizers on the SCOTUS and at Treasury,, ??

JellyToast on September 29, 2008 at 8:26 PM

The economy is in real trouble and all some people want to do is bicker.

I think this vote was a failure in leadership.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:02 PM

This is a very upsetting situation, and it’s understandable that people are very upset. However, rational adults have the ability to control their language and anger, then focus on getting important tasks done for the greater common good.

Instead of feeding the irrationality, everyone who can needs to promote leadership, followership, teamsmanship, reason and good will.

Loxodonta on September 29, 2008 at 8:32 PM

Jelly: Someone listened to Rush today eh? I like him a lot, but I for one was kind of frustrated at his chortling as the market dropped 600 points. It’s no big deal for him…he’s a billionaire or whatever.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:32 PM

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:25 PM

I really hate to be insulting tonight, but your ongoing arguments are what the Donks and squishy Republicans have been using over the last generation as the deficits have soared and the lending institutions have loaded up on bad debt. It is the same pablum that Dodd, Frank, Pelosi, and the Obamistas have used to draw us further and further into financial disaster. It is time to break the cycle, by whatever means. It is means losing my house, fine. Soup line, fine. Many have sacrificed their lives for this country. The least we can do is to suffer what ever needs to be done to finally save the Republic. And that is what this is all about.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 8:32 PM

JonRoss:

The problem with your way of thinking is we won’t get what you want. We will get what the democrats want because…surprise surprise…they actually control congress. What in creation makes you think they’re going to succumb to the pressure of the minority party and suddenly pass a bill that you’ll find palatable?

You think the market dropping another few days is going to elevate the level of rationality in the public? Do you think that the next bill that rolls by is going to be better?

You won’t suffer through soup lines, you’ll suffer through socialism.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:35 PM

You won’t suffer through soup lines, you’ll suffer through socialism.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:35 PM

So if the Donks control Congress why didn’t they pass the bill today ?

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 8:37 PM

I have to say that some people here sound absolutely crazy. Bailout shills??? Neck deep in it themselves??to ensure the economic well being of Americans…as some sort of code word for tyranny?

Not to mention a desire to have trials and name names and get the guilty homeowners to pay before we do anything as silly and unimportant as shore up the Banking system…

How does capitalism function without capital?

You can call me a chicken little, but I think there are some ostriches on the other side of this debate.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:38 PM

Jon:

Because Nancy gave up to much to the Republicans. I have a feeling that if we have a few more days like today, the calls from people back home might start to sound a little different from the ones they have been getting.

Nothing like watching your pension fund disappear to get your attention.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:40 PM

Here is the recipe for fixing the problem:

545 PEOPLE

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered why,if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered why,if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes,

WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don’t propose a federal budget. The president does.

You and I don’t have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don’t write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don’t set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don’t control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court justices

545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don’t care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator’s responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people who stand convicted — by present facts of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can’t think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it’s because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it’s because they want it in the red.

If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ, it’s because they want them in IRAQ .

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it’s because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like ‘the economy,’ ‘inflation,’ or ‘politics’ that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power.

They, and they alone,should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

Keemo on September 29, 2008 at 8:40 PM

If anyone here really hates to be insulting, it’s very easy to stop it by using discipline and self control.

This is the same quality that our federal government should take regarding spending and federally required & insured loans to people who have no credit.

Loxodonta on September 29, 2008 at 8:41 PM

k2:

I wonder how much money Rush has stowed away in some bank on some island no one ever heard of?

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:42 PM

JonRoss:

I was mulling over that today. Why did Pelosi get up there and act like a partisan child? Why did the normally tight-knit democratic caucus fall apart? Why oh why did Sheila Jackson Lee (my Rep — ha!) vote Nay?

Everyone’s got an angle at it’s all scripted. I don’t know the answer to those questions, but I have some ideas.

For one, they didn’t want their fingerprints on it…unless it paid well. This one didn’t pay well enough so they were willing to let it slide by (or vote against it in a covert way). It’s win-win: if the economy doesn’t tank, they avoided a largely unpopular bill. If it does tank, the stupid house republicans walked right into the trap of saying “she called me names so I took my ball home” as if somehow this will make them seem…adult.

If they pass it up they still enjoy the position of majority party. So come Thursday, if the Dow down to 8500 or something everybody will be much more eager to toe the line. And if not, who cares? Pelosi will drum up a bill that will please the fringe/radical side of her party (where most of the “No”s came from) and it will pass along party lines. She already has implicit approval via Paulson that Bush will sign it.

So you tell me? Was today a victory for us or for her?

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:43 PM

I have to say that some people here sound absolutely crazy. Bailout shills??? Neck deep in it themselves??to ensure the economic well being of Americans…as some sort of code word for tyranny?

Not to mention a desire to have trials and name names and get the guilty homeowners to pay before we do anything as silly and unimportant as shore up the Banking system…

How does capitalism function without capital?

You can call me a chicken little, but I think there are some ostriches on the other side of this debate.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:38 PM

I have scrimped and scratched to keep my house. I don’t have television and I am on dial up here. I have not bought a new care in 10 years. My underwear is wearing thin.

Frankly Terrye, I don’t like being raped by my government. And I can’t imagine why some people think it is noble to lay back and let them do it.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 8:43 PM

How did you like the status quo today? Hows that 25% loss in value YTD on the S&P treatin’ ya?

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:21 PM

It was downright ugly K2. So would trying to put out a fire with gasoline, which is what our government is attempting to do. There’s no use fattening up the sheep while the wolves still run the stockyard.

Rovin on September 29, 2008 at 8:44 PM

I wonder how many goodies Nancy would have to put on that bill to lure back the Democrats? And there is nothing the Republicans can do about it.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:44 PM

Who are these people? They did not break any laws. They thought they were getting real loans. Not all of them are bums or crooks, many of them are young people buying their first homes.

And besides, it is not all about them. This thing will spread way beyond them. Are you so insistent upon punishing someone for getting a zero down loan that you are willing to sacrifice your pension fund or your children’s education?

I mean come on, there are banks failing in Europe, not just here. This is a global crisis.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:10 PM

They broke the law of being responsible for ones own financial situation. They did get real loans and didn’t care what the details were. So what if they’re young people buying their first home? Do you know how long most people save to buy their first home?

First, zero down loans are desired by those who want a free ride. Tough crap for them if it bit them in the ass.

I couldn’t afford to send my kids to college. I didn’t have a god given right that they get a college education. I suppose others do and they want to mortgage their immediate future in the expectation that it will pay off later. That is called a gamble. Why should anyone other than the gambler have to face the consequences of their poor choices?

These failures are of firms who forgot to follow sound financial principles. They will be replaced by firms that are financially principled.

That is how the free market works. I suggest anyone who expects others to save their bacon ought to just get out of risky ventures that they cannot afford to lose on. The disgust at that attitude by the 95% of mortgage owners, WHO HAPPEN TO BE PAYING THEIR MORTGAGES, is completely justified and expecting otherwise from them is insulting.

csdeven on September 29, 2008 at 8:45 PM

PS JonRoss: You say IF the donks controll congress as if it isn’t well known that they do…?

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:45 PM

Rovin:

So, you think facing reality is putting gas on a fire?

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:46 PM

Jelly: Someone listened to Rush today eh?

Yes, I listened to Rush and proudly so!
The Treasury Secretary will be given dictator like powers to ensure economic well-being. If Rush makes billions, he lost a lot today. I don’t have even a few thousand I could afford to lose. My retirement I am sure is down to nothing. I have not even bothered to look at it. Quite frankly though, and I do not say this lightly, I would rather live in a metal container in a parking lot somewhere and remain in a free nation,, a free America,, than keep everything I have and fool myself into thinking we are not edging closer and closer to a dangerous socialist system!!
I will gladly take the metal container and keep America free. Because in a free America, I know I have a better future than I do in government housing in a Fascist state!

JellyToast on September 29, 2008 at 8:47 PM

I wonder how much money Rush has stowed away in some bank on some island no one ever heard of?

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:42 PM

None. ‘Cause I would have heard of it.

trailboss on September 29, 2008 at 8:47 PM

Re McCain video, I wish he would define the problem first
before trying to fix it.

Speakup @7:07, JellyToast @7:09, TheBigOldDog @7:09 I agree
with all of you, great points.

Steve Z @7:28, very interesting, wish you were in Washington.

bluefox on September 29, 2008 at 8:49 PM

PS JonRoss: You say IF the donks controll congress as if it isn’t well known that they do…?

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:45 PM

\
Yeah….???? We know they do. They can load whatever they want to into the bill. All the opposition can do is put up a principled stand against it.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 8:49 PM

Pelosi will drum up a bill that will please the fringe/radical side of her party (where most of the “No”s came from) and it will pass along party lines. She already has implicit approval via Paulson that Bush will sign it.

You’re so right there K2. Pelosi slipped her little “go vote no notes” to her fringe/nutcases and let her responsible bluedog Dems hang in the wind. They will not forget this day either.

Rovin on September 29, 2008 at 8:49 PM

Again: THE MARKET DID NOT CAUSE THIS. I’m using caps because you seem to be oblivious to the fact that there is a before:after point in the loan scenario. Before: banks did not loan without nice down payments and good credit history. After: anybody or their dog could get a loan. Why did this happen? Think! Try hard! Make them fleas jump off of your skull from the heat!

The change wasn’t because they suddenly struck upon an idea that magically eliminated risk and made capitalism all reward, sunshine, and rainbows. The change happened because the government mandated it, and used political, legal, and legislative muscle to back it up. And then, quite nicely actually, the government provided a means for them to get rich while complying. Carrot AND stick — a most devious ploy.

CSDeven. Seriously. Your drum is getting old and the beat is getting irritating. Don’t holler about people making their payments OR people not making their payments. Don’t holler about Wall Street or Bear Stearns. They were doing the same thing you did today — going out and making money, usually legally. Holler about Dodd & Friends. Please. You’ll feel better and you’ll sound smarter.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:49 PM

csdeven:

So, when a soldier gets a zero down loan from VA he is a parasite? Is that what you think?

If they were going to punish people for getting zero down loans then they should not have offered them in the first place. These young people were told not to waste their money on rent, it was irresponsible to throw your money away on rent when you could make that payment and be a home owner.

I am sure some people took advantage, but most of them did not. Most of them believed what the professionals they were dealing with told them.

Treating them like dirt will not help anything. It will not save anything. It will not solve anything. There are banks failing, insurance companies failing, investment houses failing, this is way and beyond those people.

BTW, I did not get a free education. I did not get a free anything. Whatever I have, I have worked for and I don’t want to lose it.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:52 PM

Yeah….???? We know they do. They can load whatever they want to into the bill. All the opposition can do is put up a principled stand against it.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 8:49 PM

Now that we’ve established that, riddle me this: did the democrats vote No today out of a pique of conscience? Did they take their eye off the ball? Or, assuming they’re rational actors and didn’t make a mistake, was this bill not good enough? Are they waiting for something better?

Will that something be better or worse for us? I can’t see how it would be the former. I think they laid a trap and our reps walked into it, clapping each other on the back. Like I said, I don’t know this…but we’ll find out soon enough.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:53 PM

We and our children deserve better. My advice to my son is now, get the hell out of the U.S. military. Let Pelosi and Frank and Dodd and Obama find someone else to screw.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 8:17 PM

First off, thanks to your son for his service. Second, I’m as worried as you are that this will be used as a tool to force all kinds of legislation down our throats. But ask yourself this: if you can put some extra oil into an engine with a wicked oil leak to make sure that it doesn’t seize till you can get to a mechanic, isn’t that a better plan than to take the risk of seizing just to save the $10 for the bottle of oil?

That analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but that seems to be the closest one I can come up with off the cuff. I guess the real problem with all of this is “what happens when you get to the mechanic?” Hell, is there even a mechanic in the direction we’re driving the car?

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 8:54 PM

Dude. Everyone here has that attitude. Present company excluded, of course.

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 7:35 PM

Dude! Fair enough. Sarc/ on. Sarc/ off.

trailboss on September 29, 2008 at 8:55 PM

So you tell me? Was today a victory for us or for her?

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:43 PM

Pelosi will say what she will say and do what she will do. Most people in this country really don’t know what the hell is going on with this anyway so if she says those bad Republicans done screwed you again some may believe her. This is not a time for nuances. It was a principled stand by those who opposed it. And what if the Donks who opposed it today still oppose it with the next vote and it still goes done ? Pelosi will probably need to start packing up her office.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 8:55 PM

k2:
The way I understand it, the banks made the loans to sell them. I’m sure a lot of people have had their loans serviced by companies that did not provide the loans.

I also understand that these bundled loans, after they were sold, were implied to have government backing and that is why they attracted investors. Unfortunately, government agencies are not the government and therefore have no backing.

Vince on September 29, 2008 at 8:55 PM

Rovin on September 29, 2008 at 8:49 PM

There are some curious things about so-called “blue dog” democrats. They talk the talk, are almost Republicans in their relatively moderate, rural, or even conservative home districts (see: Chet Edwards). But when they get to DC, they overwhelmingly vote with their party. They put Pelosi up there. They support her.

So what makes you think they’re not rational actors too? Why is daggum Joe Lieberman the only freaking democrat to bail on principle from that fetid stinking corpse of a political party?

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:55 PM

to ensure the economic well being of Americans…as some sort of code word for tyranny?

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:38 PM

What you don’t understand: The economic well being based on irresponsible financial practices.

And the bailout just continues the cycle. If these people fail, they are the example for anyone else who thinks that there is such a thing as a free lunch. It’s time to stop promising that the problem will be fixed and it’s time for those who gambled and lost accept the responsibility for THEIR actions and decisions.

csdeven on September 29, 2008 at 8:56 PM

trailboss:

Maybe Switzerland?

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:57 PM

Vince on September 29, 2008 at 8:55 PM

Yep, that’s the carrot part. But the government created the securities and vehicles through legislation and the stick of threatened lawsuits, along with creating a means for political groups to strong arm banks. They essentially told banks you either do what we say or we limit your expansion, portfolio abilities, etc. Then to keep them from complaining too much, they made it ridiculously profitable — provided the market kept going up.

Nationalization doesn’t have to be explicit. Controlling market share and capital ability of an industry will do it quite nicely. What’s funny is apparently everyone thinks we currently have a free market financial system.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:59 PM

That analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but that seems to be the closest one I can come up with off the cuff. I guess the real problem with all of this is “what happens when you get to the mechanic?” Hell, is there even a mechanic in the direction we’re driving the car?

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 8:54 PM

I agree spmat, however (always a however tonight) the first mechanic sabotaged my car. I don’t want someone telling me that I can’t go back and kick his ass. That is what this bill is doing. There are no guarantees in this bill that brings that first mechanic to justice. And is ain’t going to happen. If I had to make a list of the many reasons I object to the bailout this would be at the top. There is no accountability whatsover.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 9:00 PM

That analogy breaks down pretty quickly, but that seems to be the closest one I can come up with off the cuff. I guess the real problem with all of this is “what happens when you get to the mechanic?” Hell, is there even a mechanic in the direction we’re driving the car?

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 8:54 PM

I think another analogy would be that of a guy with severe fecal impaction. Better to spend the money now on an enema, then hope the body can repair the damage over time.

The ‘market’ needs help now and then, and some regulation to curb it’s worst impulses. Over time it is self-correcting, and many of those that got themselves into this mess are already paying the price. But making all of them pay the price now is just taking us all down with the Titanic.

trailboss on September 29, 2008 at 9:01 PM

Rovin:

So, you think facing reality is putting gas on a fire?

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:46 PM

Rhetoric hyperbole Terrye at best. The reality IMHO is this system has been broken for a long time and no on cared as long as the money flowed in and people who had no business buying homes had (as someone mentioned) them force down their throats. In the name of humanity and compassion for the dissadvantaged, this “program” left out responsibility. And we are all paying for the greed that followed. The reality is, if we don’t purge the system that is flawed, we are due to repeat it. That would be a sin!

Rovin on September 29, 2008 at 9:02 PM

csdven:

No, it does not just continue that practice. It keeps the system functioning and this is not about a free lunch. Thousands and thousands of those people have already been wiped out. Letting some of them continue to make payments and stay in their homes protects the property values of others, not themselves.

You do not seem to understand that it is about all of us now. Forget those people. This is starting to effect people who did not have anything to do with any free lunch.

I feel like I am talking to a wall.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 9:02 PM

Maybe Switzerland?

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 8:57 PM

um, ok, I haven’t heard of that one.

trailboss on September 29, 2008 at 9:03 PM

They were doing the same thing you did today — going out and making money, usually legally.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 8:49 PM

Don’t presume to know me.

And gambling is legal too. To ask others to bailout irresponsible greedy people is insulting.

Look, you sound like someone who is in deep trouble over this. I don’t want to be in trouble like that. That is why I purchased a home that I could afford if I had to go dig ditches for a living. That is why I have NEVER purchased a new car. And I am not sympathetic to those who bought homes they couldn’t afford and decided they needed a fancy new car to park in the garage and now try to strong arm and insult ME AND OTHERS to save their sorry asses.

Hey, wish in one hand and $hit in the other. Then tell the group which one fills up faster.

csdeven on September 29, 2008 at 9:06 PM

Rovin:

No, it is not hyperbole. It is reality. And just letting the system collapse will not deal with any underlying problems either.

This is about keeping credit available to businesses for payroll. and all you guys can do is lecture me on the glories of economic catastrophe.

This is not a purge, it is a collapse. It is stupid.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 9:06 PM

Rovin on September 29, 2008 at 9:02 PM

It might be useful to stop it from collapsing first, or at least reduce its potential for immediate collapse, and then fix the causes that threaten future collapse.

Loxodonta on September 29, 2008 at 9:07 PM

There is no accountability whatsover.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 9:00 PM

Bingo! We have a winner on why folks are pissed off about this deal.

If you want the bill to pass, put provisions in it for accountability. Heads need to roll.

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 9:07 PM

csdeven:

If someone else had not bought that car new, it would not have been there you to buy used. I live in a little place and I own it. But that does not mean I don’t worry about my job and my savings and it does not mean I am a sanctimonious preachy little person who gets a kick out of seeing other people get wiped out.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 9:09 PM

spmat:

So what about the FBI investigations? People seem to be ignoring those. They are happening now.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 9:10 PM

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 9:09 PM

Aye! +5

trailboss on September 29, 2008 at 9:11 PM

trailboss:

Maybe in a coffee can in the backyard.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 9:11 PM

csdeven on September 29, 2008 at 9:06 PM

Sorry for presuming you’re a productive member of society…?

Actually, I rent an apartment right now because my wife of six months and I are saving up for a down payment on a house. I have a 76 bronco (paid for) and a V6 pickup (to save gas…paying). My wife drives a new car we paid for in cash and is in school.

I don’t have a dog in this hunt re: Wall Street, other than my meager 9 months worth of contributions to my 401(k). I do understand, however, that if commercial paper goes away, it won’t help my financial outlook.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM

If you want the bill to pass, put provisions in it for accountability. Heads need to roll.

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 9:07 PM

Spot on! Accountability is what we all face everyday. Same principle needs to apply to the 545 creatures that run our country!

Keemo on September 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM

…I think another analogy would be that of a guy with severe fecal impaction. Better to spend the money now on an enema, then hope the body can repair the damage over time.
trailboss on September 29, 2008 at 9:01 PM

I see it differently. It is like during the the 19th century when the condemned prisoner had to pay the hangman to set the noose just right. You wanted your neck to snap and die quickly, not to choke to death slowly. Paulson and his fellow Donks want to kill our economic system. We can pay for the bailout, so it is put to death quickly. The Donks will have salvaged their principles and life for them is good. But I would rather the economy die a slow death so even the Donks will suffer. And maybe during the slow choke some will get a few Donk’s head on a pike or two up and down Pennsylvania.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM

If you want the bill to pass, put provisions in it for accountability. Heads need to roll.

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 9:07 PM

What kind do you have in mind? Did people actually break the law? If they were greedy and/or stupid, is that illegal. How do we hold them accountable?

trailboss on September 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM

When the islamic terrorists nuke a city in the USA?

Which one should go first?

Washington?
New York?
Chicago?
San Francisco?

any other suggestions?

Sapwolf on September 29, 2008 at 9:15 PM

No, it does not just continue that practice. It keeps the system functioning and this is not about a free lunch. Thousands and thousands of those people have already been wiped out. Letting some of them continue to make payments and stay in their homes protects the property values of others, not themselves.

You do not seem to understand that it is about all of us now. Forget those people. This is starting to effect people who did not have anything to do with any free lunch.

I feel like I am talking to a wall.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 9:02 PM

Wow! You have bought it hook, line, and sinker.

1) When they bailout these banks, many others line up too.
2) There are no provisions to stop the practice when the credit markets free up.
3) Property values are artificially high and do not reflect reality BECAUSE of exactly what you are espousing we do! Home values need to reflect reality before this problem is solved.
4) ALL OF US!!!??? ARE FRAPPING KIDDING ME!!!??? This is all about those who gambled and lost and are now whining like little 8itches. If this was all about “us”, why not allow the 95% of us, who are responsible, to secure our kids future by getting this country back onto the free market track NOW.
5) No, you’re talking to someone who understands that he is responsible for his own financial well being and would NEVER presume that others should help him out of stupid greedy decisions.

csdeven on September 29, 2008 at 9:15 PM

But I would rather the economy die a slow death so even the Donks will suffer. And maybe during the slow choke some will get a few Donk’s head on a pike or two up and down Pennsylvania.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM

I agree, you do see it differently, but I don’t follow your logic.

trailboss on September 29, 2008 at 9:15 PM

JonRoss:

I don’t understand your point. As we’ve agreed, the House Republicans voting no to this is a token resistance, no better than a no lo contendre on a traffic ticket.

So some serious thinking about my questions: did the democrats vote No today out of a pique of conscience? Did they take their eye off the ball? Or, assuming they’re rational actors and didn’t make a mistake, was this bill not good enough? Are they waiting for something better?

Will that something be better or worse for us?

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 9:16 PM

…And maybe during the slow choke some will get a few Donk’s head on a pike or two up and down Pennsylvania.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM

I meant to say “Pennsylvania Avenue” Wouldn’t want to besearch PA.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 9:18 PM

Maybe in a coffee can in the backyard.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 9:11 PM

Ah! I was beginning to fear you knew of an island called Switzerland.

Rush is one of the few who has lived of the very fattest of the fat of the land, and if the economy tanks…meh!

trailboss on September 29, 2008 at 9:18 PM

It may as well be a wall, Terrye. csdeven is pretty much more angry than rational at this point. It brings to mind the idiotic support from Jefferson et al of the French Revolution. Perhaps their ideals were in the right place, but as John Adams aptly predicted, an angry rabble, disorganized but for demagoguery, is ripe for the picking into the fold of a dictator.

And honestly, does anyone see this ending any other way? On the current tack?

Letting this country fall into a deep depression wont endear folks to capitalism. It merely makes the grass is greener more effective, and the idea of trading liberty for security more palatable.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 9:18 PM

So what about the FBI investigations? People seem to be ignoring those. They are happening now.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 9:10 PM

Terrye,

You’re smarter than that. The FBI is controlled by who? All I can do is hope that the FBI will actually do this job without prejudice. History tells me different. One things for sure at this point; this bill is pure Socialism, and has nothing to do with the United States Constitution. Pure 100% Socialism dressed up with loads of make-up and costumes.

Keemo on September 29, 2008 at 9:20 PM

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 9:13 PM

Oh, I am very productive. I just don’t unduly rely on others decisions for my financial future. I save and I prepare. And I am not about to let others take it from to give it to those who refuse to prepare.

Good for you. When the scum have been vetted from the system, you will be in a good position to benefit from their mistakes. A suggestion…..the money you’re saving for your house is really a hedge against tough times. The lost ability to buy a home short term will serve you better when homes values reflect reality.

csdeven on September 29, 2008 at 9:20 PM

Letting this country fall into a deep depression wont endear folks to capitalism. It merely makes the grass is greener more effective, and the idea of trading liberty for security more palatable.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 9:18 PM

Historic fact. And we are not immune from history repeating itself.

trailboss on September 29, 2008 at 9:22 PM

Will that something be better or worse for us?

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 9:16 PM

You can analyze this thing up and down and around and around, and nuance the hell out of it. Most of the Donks probably who voted NO did so because they have been threatened by the folks back home. Will they switch later ? Who knows. However Pelosi can’t blame the failure on the GOP without having it thrown back at her now. Did “we” win or lose ? I think taking a principled stand is never a losing proposition, regardless of the outcome.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 9:27 PM

csdeven, home prices in Houston weren’t up as high and won’t fall as low. Sales have slowed significantly but prices aren’t plummeting. Thus, I conclude that the housing market in Houston is not too far from “normal”. When the rest of the country catches up to it is anyone’s guess.

But again — if this whole things falls over into ruin and I get fired, how does this benefit me? If I can’t get a loan to start a small business, which I aspire to, how am I better off? We haven’t been nearly as free or nearly as capitalistic as we think for a while. I don’t see either of the options (vote for this, vote against it) resulting in a come-to-Jesus moment for the current majority party in the house.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 9:28 PM

However Pelosi can’t blame the failure on the GOP without having it thrown back at her now.

Wanna bet? Do a quick scan of headlines and find one that puts even one iota of blame on her.

It’s all about how the media spins it and…they’re eating up the idea that this is All Their Fault.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 9:30 PM

Rovin on September 29, 2008 at 9:02 PM
It might be useful to stop it from collapsing first, or at least reduce its potential for immediate collapse, and then fix the causes that threaten future collapse.

Loxodonta on September 29, 2008 at 9:07 PM

This is where you folks don’t seem to face reality. IT HAS ALREADY COLLAPSED! Paulson’s plan for reviving liquidity is a joke. Pelosi played her game at the nation’s expense by making her political statement knowing full well she did not have the votes to pass the bill. Read Mike Pence’s Republican alternative (which is never considered in this “new direction congress’) where liquidity is restored in the form of FDIC’s and not directly at the taxpayers expense.

Look on the bright side—–oil dropped another 10 bucks a gallon today. At this pace, there’s more money going into the pockets of “us” consumers than anything the government can do to save us. The small investors and small business folks have to be protected. This bill today did nothing to prevent or protect us—-that’s why it failed.

Rovin on September 29, 2008 at 9:35 PM

So what about the FBI investigations? People seem to be ignoring those. They are happening now.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 9:10 PM

Does not follow. That the executive would be doing its job has no bearing on the reality of getting a bill passed.

Besides, I’m not giving you my reason for not supporting it. I’m giving you the reason why most of its detractors hate it, both on the left and the right. Perhaps if more time was spent explaining it, instead of folks being told to “STFU and do as your told,” you’d have more support.

spmat on September 29, 2008 at 9:37 PM

I agree, you do see it differently, but I don’t follow your logic.

trailboss on September 29, 2008 at 9:15 PM

I don’t see this issue as a clogged rectum that just kinda happend. I see it as an economic system that has been manuvered to the gallows by those who hate it. Dodd, Frank, Pelosi, Kennedy, etc. The hangman has given us a choice now, quick death by bail-out or a slow one by a DEPRESSION or worse. The quick death is for sure and we will feel some, but not a lot of pain; the slow death – who knows for sure. I am willing to risk my job, house and everything else I own in an attempt to salvage our system. The bail out really ends all hope. There are no guarantees this is the end of it. There are no guarantees that the pork will not be ladled on after the election.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 9:37 PM

Hey! Did you notice that the fed just made $630 BLN. available to money institutions for liquidity purpose? HMMMM, just about the size of the bail out bill.

Vince on September 29, 2008 at 9:39 PM

Vince,tell us more. Looks like everyone is off the hook liquidity sake…Is that good enough??

gracie on September 29, 2008 at 9:43 PM

It’s all about how the media spins it and…they’re eating up the idea that this is All Their Fault.

k2aggie07 on September 29, 2008 at 9:30 PM

Yeah and if ever last GOP member voted yes the headlines would be “Democrat House passes bail-out”. The GOP is going to get crapped on by the press regardless so they need to do what is right, as alien a concept that is to a lot of folks.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 9:43 PM

So what about the FBI investigations? People seem to be ignoring those. They are happening now.

Terrye on September 29, 2008 at 9:10 PM

Terrye,

You’re smarter than that. The FBI is controlled by who? All

I can do is hope that the FBI will actually do this job without prejudice. History tells me different. One things for sure at this point; this bill is pure Socialism, and has nothing to do with the United States Constitution. Pure 100% Socialism dressed up with loads of make-up and costumes.

Keemo on September 29, 2008 at 9:20 PM

Hey my friend! Good to see you. I have to fix dinner. Take over!

God Bless All…..and have faith, there is a one who will not forsake you, even in dire times.

Rovin on September 29, 2008 at 9:43 PM

It looks like the Fed is working with several foreign banks to provide liquidity to the global market. It’s headlined at Drudge but it looks like this was done this afternoon.

Vince on September 29, 2008 at 9:50 PM

csdeven:

Who are these people? They did not break any laws. They thought they were getting real loans. Not all of them are bums or crooks, many of them are young people buying their first homes.

And besides, it is not all about them. This thing will spread way beyond them. Are you so insistent upon punishing someone for getting a zero down loan that you are willing to sacrifice your pension fund or your children’s education

These people are people like my mother in law that got one of these loans in the mid 90′s and defaulted on it in less than 4 years and fewer than 7 years later, without so much as paying off what she stilled owed on the previous loan, was able to get another one. She’s about to bail on that second one. Not because of any hardship that was caused to her or out of her control. (Although she’ll tell you that all day long, it’s always someone elses fault) It’s just a lot easier to run from your problems and leave them for someone else to clean up then to face them head on. As for the young people buying their first homes, I was that young person just a few short years ago. But I had to be responsible. I expect everyone else to be as well. I refuse to have to bail others out. I refuse to have my children have to bail irresponsible jerks out. Why should they?

csdeven:

So, when a soldier gets a zero down loan from VA he is a parasite? Is that what you think?

I really doubt he believes that or is intimating any such thing. When a soldier gets a VA loan it is a benefit that he has worked for and earned. My husband served 10 years, part of that time in combat to earn the right to use that VA backed loan. What the hell did any of these people do to earn that same right? And now that they are bailing on those mortgages why should my family bail them out?
Barry is so concerned about the middle class. They aren’t the only ones in America. I have been a member of the lower-poorest class in America and grew up in an Upper class house hold. I am blessed to just barely be a member of the struggling middle class, but I am offended when pols fail to speak to ALL AMERICANS-Rich, poor, and the in-between.

mauioriginal on September 29, 2008 at 9:53 PM

I might also add this:

82% of Americans are saying NO to this bill. 82% of America understands that this bill will throw our Constitution under the bus; end game!

This bill is not the solution, but rather the death of the greatest nation ever created. A solution needs to come forward, but if it does, it will not be disguised with make-up and costumes. 82% of our people recognize that this proposed legislation is an attempt to steal our country from the people; steal our country from us folks.

The Constitution of the United States of America

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Keemo on September 29, 2008 at 9:55 PM

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Keemo on September 29, 2008 at 9:55 PM

Somehow I always feel like an “Amen” would be approriate at the end of that paragraph.

JonRoss on September 29, 2008 at 10:04 PM

We had better keep a sharp eye on all of this JonRoss. The MSM is in this up to their eyeballs. Socialism is coming at us like a train going 120 mph with no brakes.

They get us all frightened; going to lose everything; the sky is falling; on and on and on…. They work us like a bunch of cows being led to slaughter. The only dynamic giving me hope right now is the fact that 82% of Americans are trusting their gut instincts and fighting back against this blatant attempt at Socialism.

Keemo on September 29, 2008 at 10:13 PM

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