Bailout deal collapses, Democrats try to blame McCain
posted at 8:07 pm on September 25, 2008 by Allahpundit
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Down goes Frazier. I missed the report on Fox earlier but Ace says it sounds like the Dems are trying to shift the blame for it from the House GOP to Maverick. Fair or no? Let’s see. Dodd lands the first blow:
Republican presidential nominee John McCain was blamed for de-railing negotiations by blindsiding lawmakers with his support for an alternative plan.
The ‘very contentious’ meeting broke up after Republican leaders said they had to go back to their rank-and-file to discuss the new proposal…
After the hour-long White House meeting, [Dodd] said: ‘What has happened here is that we have spent seven straight days to find a rescue plan for the economy.
‘What this looked like was a rescue plan for John McCain. To be distracted for two to three hours by political theatre doesn’t help.’
Democrats said the Republicans were on board with the deal until Mr McCain intervened an injected presidential politics into the situation.
The only problem? According to Marc Ambinder, citing four independent sources, McCain didn’t say much of anything during the White House meeting let alone float any alternative plans. Boehner, apparently, brought up some of the House GOP’s ideas; the Dems claim they got the impression that McCain supported those ideas, but “they concede that he did not raise them directly.” Even Reid, ever sneering, admits McCain played no major role.
Which isn’t to say that he doesn’t, in fact, support the House GOP. Quoth The Hill from an article published earlier this afternoon:
[A] key Republican lawmaker stated that Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) wants to explore new ideas, like loaning money to financial institutions or insuring the companies, rather than buying their toxic debt…
Rep. Spencer Bachus (Ala.), the ranking Republican on the House Financial Services Committee, attended the meeting at which some say a deal was reached. But he later issued a statement saying he wasn’t authorized to negotiate or approve any deals for House Republicans…
He added that McCain is interested in using loans or insurance rather than having the government purchase the toxic debts of Wall Street institutions.
“We would prefer a loan or supplying insurance,” Bachus told reporters. “These are the ideas Sen. McCain tried to maximize. He feels strongly we have to design a program where taxpayers won’t lose.”
Bachus, wearing a “McCain-Palin” lapel pin, said he’d talked to McCain on Wednesday night and had breakfast with McCain’s advisers Wednesday morning.
The insurance angle is at the core of the House GOP’s alternative plan. See here for the particulars. In essence, they want to scrap a taxpayer bailout, expand the feds’ power to insure mortgage-backed securities, and lift regulations to encourage private investment and rescue the financial industry that way. As for McCain, it sounds like he’s being coy because he’s not sure yet which way to break on this politically. Better hurry up: If that Hill article I linked is correct, they’re nowhere near the 100 Republican votes Pelosi wants before she’ll send the bill to the Senate and the markets, shall we say, won’t like that. Exit question: If they can’t get a deal done to save the farking economy, will next week bring us Congress’s first ever zero percent approval rating?
Update: For what it’s worth, here’s what HuffPo’s sources are telling them about the meeting:
Towards the end, McCain finally spoke up, mentioning a counter-proposal that had been offered by some conservative House Republicans, which would suspend the capital gains tax for two years and provide tax incentives to encourage firms that buy up bad debt. McCain did not discuss specifics of the plan, though, and was non-committal about supporting it.
Paulson, however, argued directly against the conservative proposal. “He said that he did not think it would work,” according to the source. At another point in the meeting, President Bush chimed in, “If money isn’t loosened, this sucker could go down” — and by sucker he meant economy…
Following the meeting, Democrats stayed talking in the Roosevelt room and Paulson approached them. Speaker Pelosi and Rep. Barney Frank shot back at Paulson that the real problem was with House Republicans, according to sources. Paulson replied, “I know, I know,” as he got down on one knee to lighten the mood. Pelosi joked back, “I didn’t know you were a Catholic.”
Update: An astute point from Baseball Crank. In all the frenzy over McCain, you know whose name you haven’t heard much of at all as mattering to this deal? Barack Obama’s.
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I see no “heart attack”. My credit card still works. My checks don’t bounce. I took some money out of a money market. But if you want to go with “us” already having a “heart attack”, then “Dr.” Paulson’s Apocalypse Now shtick could likely just make it worse.
MB4 on September 25, 2008 at 10:07 PM
MB4 on September 25, 2008 at 10:01 PM
no assumptions. If the credit problem is not fixed we have a market crash and a credit crunch which will take us into a depression. It is just the way markets work, the boom and busts of capitalism. that is a fact not an assumption. the depression will cost taxpayers trillions in lost assets vaules, increase unemployment beefits, increased food stamps, increased section 8, etc etc. and don’t forget the make work programs as the country faces a 25-30% unemployment rate.
these are not assumptions these are history backed facts. Look back thru all the depressions this country as gone thru and the numbers match pretty close and they all started with bad credit markets… Of course back in the other depressions the taxpayers weren’t on the hook for ever deposit in the country and every unemployed person. so this depression will cost the taxpayer quite a bit more than the 1933 depression.
unseen on September 25, 2008 at 10:08 PM
Well Barney ought to know about real problems since he had a lot of input into this one.
jeanie on September 25, 2008 at 10:09 PM
joe, i’ve read several of your posts in the past few minutes. you are very consistent in your analysis. nearly everything you have said is dead wrong.
DrW on September 25, 2008 at 10:10 PM
Which is what Paulson’s original plan was meant to do as well.
FloatingRock on September 25, 2008 at 10:10 PM
Graham is giving details of what the Dems were trying to pass off.. 10% of the money would have been going to ACORN!!!!
Queen0fCups on September 25, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Is Graham right? Did the current bill give a ton of money to ACORN?
lorien1973 on September 25, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Cantor Plan in (very) brief
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avnxqWMsmExs&refer=home
CK MacLeod on September 25, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Ann Coulter is going to bat for John McCain?
/faints
funky chicken on September 25, 2008 at 10:12 PM
Weight of Glory:
Well I don’t blame you. If I could panic I would. But I am what my mamma used to call high strung.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:12 PM
That should be if I could avoid panic. Fingers faster than brain.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:13 PM
Unseen: Put your faith in something else, and not credit, you jackassed butt-plug of an Obama supporter.
We’re going to be fine, and we don’t need people like you being “nervous Nellies”.
Sakaki on September 25, 2008 at 10:07 PM
why don’t you try to educate yourself. we are not going to be fine. this is what happens. the credit (TED) gets to 3 the stock market crashes IT is a simple 1 + 1 statement. Without any outside interference the market crashes tommorrow. Do you get it yet?
As far as an Obama support please…..that was the stupidest statement I ever heard.
unseen on September 25, 2008 at 10:13 PM
I heard that, too – a jaw-dropper if true and what it sounded like. Beyond scandalous. Maybe it’s some other ACORN???? Not that it’s any more supportable, but I think that most of that money would have gone to community housing, not direct to the organization…
CK MacLeod on September 25, 2008 at 10:13 PM
casey on greta staying mccain should focus on the debate. wtf you tool? i don’t know if my money is going to be at my bank on monday but i should give a rat’s butt about a debate.
anna on September 25, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Apparently there was no deal… only some agreement with some junior congressmen… The Republicans were treated with calls from their constituents warning them off this bill.
Sen Casey is on claiming that McCain should not have come! HA! He WISHES McCain had not come!
Graham says that McCain left the building but is working the phones getting support for the Republican plan.
Queen0fCups on September 25, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Good! This is what the GOP needs to do. Leak the things that the Dems. wanted that would not have helped the problem at all. Which Graham was it? And where did you hear/read it? Throw it back at Pelosi and Franks. Show how even in the midst of the crisis they were unwilling to actually attempt a solution. Bring it out into the open!
Weight of Glory on September 25, 2008 at 10:15 PM
ACORN??? My God, will these people get serious?
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:15 PM
Apparently, ACORN is now in the housing biz. Crimeny!
Queen0fCups on September 25, 2008 at 10:15 PM
Grahmnasty just said that the Dems are trying to get 20% into ACORN
Mercy4Me on September 25, 2008 at 10:16 PM
It’s easy to embrace crash and burn libertarianism with these people at the head, isn’t it?
lorien1973 on September 25, 2008 at 10:16 PM
Lindsay Graham was just on Greta.
Queen0fCups on September 25, 2008 at 10:16 PM
NO WAY NO DEAL NO ACORN!
Mercy4Me on September 25, 2008 at 10:17 PM
I just bought a major appliance yesterday, over a grand on a 12 month no interest thing. New department store charge.
Maybe some folks won’t be able to buy a car or get approved for a mortgage tomorrow. But if they should traditionally (like 30 years ago) should have been approved for a loan, they probably will get it.
If this thing takes until Monday to sort out, so what? Or Tuesday? I think they ought to do due diligence before they spend 700 billion bucks, and if a big pile of that money was supposed to go to ACORN?
KILL IT
funky chicken on September 25, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Apparently, ACORN is now in the housing biz. Crimeny!
Queen0fCups on September 25, 2008 at 10:15 PMhas alwways been in the housing biz. they sold their loans to FM and FM that is where the problem comes from…people forget poor people are poor for a reason not because of the color of their skin..
unseen on September 25, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Thanks.
Weight of Glory on September 25, 2008 at 10:18 PM
At least the repo man won’t be visiting you, since he’ll have no way of getting paid.
phronesis on September 25, 2008 at 10:18 PM
I am oversimplifying things? Huh? lol.
Don’t you think that those who are saying that if congress doesn’t give the Treasury authority to spend another $700,000,000,000.00 and probably a blank check to spend even more money that the government doesn’t have, and do it before Monday or else we will have a qazillion unemployed just might be the ones oversimplifying?
MB4 on September 25, 2008 at 10:18 PM
Graham said 20% of the money that should go to cover the reitrement debt will instead go to the horrible housing organization ACORN!!!
This is a horrible bill.
jencab on September 25, 2008 at 10:19 PM
GRAHMNASTY said 20% was to be given to corrupt ACORN. OH HELL NO!
Mercy4Me on September 25, 2008 at 10:19 PM
Unseen: The fact that you’re using the TED Scale as the basis for your worries shows that you have no faith in anything. You worry about this without even getting all the details. You aren’t in touch with people on the Hill, the ones who are working on this very problem.
You are saying all is lost without any real rhyme or reason. All because of some scale named after a Kennedy.
There is more to life than credit, and by worrying only about credit, you become an Obama supporter.
Begone, insect. And do not return until you’ve grown a spine.
Sakaki on September 25, 2008 at 10:19 PM
I read on Redstate this morning that this bill was a complete dog! So much superfluous crap attached, the economics guy on Redstate was completely disgusted. He said Frank was treating it like Hannukuh presents! At the time, he did not know of a Republican plan and was resigned to this one, but was pretty depressed about it.
I wish I could get into Redstate to find out more about this new plan.
Queen0fCups on September 25, 2008 at 10:19 PM
I am really pissed. What a great coalition. Malkinites and democrats. Thanks. I guess you jealous pricks want the rest of our investments cheap since you didn’t save for yourselves. That’s all I can figure.
pc on September 25, 2008 at 10:20 PM
clean bill folks. put all our capital in a clean bill. We can win that fight and save the country.
phronesis on September 25, 2008 at 10:20 PM
God! Unseen, if you are so broke up about it, just crawl into a bottle and hide, or do like they did in ‘29, and jump out a window. Worse has befallen this country, and it always has pulled through. And it will be fine now.
thekingtut on September 25, 2008 at 10:20 PM
20% – sheesh! I musta blanked on that – I thought it was only 10% and I was freaking!
Queen0fCups on September 25, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Sakaki:
I am sure unseen can speak for himself, but he is not an Obama supporter so far as I know. Believe it or not, a lot of people on the left do not support any kind of plan. International ANSWER is against any kind of bailout. There is no correlation between being concerned about this problem and being an Obama supporter.
I have given money to the RNC and McCain’s campaign. I can not imagine what could compel me to vote for Obama, ever..but I wrote both my Senators and urged their support of either a bailout or a rescue or some other plan that might stave of a financial nightmare. I am not saying we will not survive it. We would survive a dirty bomb in a major city as far as that is concerned, but this is still a very serious situation.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Sorry, but if that was GW Bush’s bill, he’s an absolute moron, just like his critics have said for years.
funky chicken on September 25, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Steve and Lynn,
True enough but here’s the rub. The time it takes to ascertain the values you are looking for has been removed from the marketplace, hence Paulson’s approach of buying the paper and we the public sit on it.
The mark to market mechanism only went into effect in the first quarter of 08. Previously each bank, brokerage firm etc could take charges against their earnings to allocate for future losses. Who can forget GM having to take 15 billion dollar write downs.
Which is what various firms were doing last year as the need rose when the market was calmer. Now with the pace of the bubble clearly having burst, combined with this reg, we have virtually everyone insolvent on the same day. Everyone is forced to get a value everyday on their portfolio. It is not possible. I’m simply asking that they stop being forced to find a bid in a market that currently doesn’t offer one.
It’s as if you put your house on the market and no one came and made an offer that day. Is your house valueless? Do you go home and tell your wife your bankrupt? You start selling the furniture? Worse still when your friends find out they won’t lend you any money. Yikes.
patrick neid on September 25, 2008 at 10:22 PM
I thought ACORN was a political community organizing group that did voter registration – had no idea about the housing… geez o Pete’s!
Look at the killing fields in Chicago, folks… that’s what the Dems will bring you.
I just heard a report that Chicago is down 400 cops, and no one is applying!
Queen0fCups on September 25, 2008 at 10:23 PM
An excellent analysis and entirely correct until your final statement. Screw buying the derivatives and playing the market. By insuring those funds against loss, the market will regain confidence in those derivatives and their value will begin to rebound. Paulson says it won’t work, but it sure as hell works with mortgages. Those pools of mortgages that get securitized by Fannie and Freddie as MBS’s are ALL insured against loss..PMI, MIP, self insured..you name it.
These giants of Wall Street want all their cash now; a quick fix. I agree with McCain and the house Repub’s. Give em enough cash to tide them over, set up a gov’t backed insurance program for the derivatives and let this thing work itself back into solvency over the next six to twelve months.
DrW on September 25, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Terrye, yes it’s a serious situation, which means it requires due diligence from serious adults before action is taken.
funky chicken on September 25, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Another big Clinton supporter/fundraiser just jump shipped for McCain! Miguel Lausel.
Queen0fCups on September 25, 2008 at 10:25 PM
jumped ship!
Queen0fCups on September 25, 2008 at 10:25 PM
BHO “Call Me”
Mercy4Me on September 25, 2008 at 10:25 PM
I can’t wait for Rush tomorrow!
Queen0fCups on September 25, 2008 at 10:26 PM
funky chicken:
It was the Sec. Treasury plan and Bernacke’s plan and Bush said that if the Congress did not like it they could come up with something else, he just wants a solution.
\btw, the US has done bailouts of the S&L industry, Chrysler and the Mexican government. Each one netted the US Treasury a profit.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:26 PM
This guy jumped last week. Greta is just getting him now.
lorien1973 on September 25, 2008 at 10:27 PM
Miguel Lausell was last week QoCups
Mercy4Me on September 25, 2008 at 10:27 PM
Terrye:
My philosophy in life is that if you have your life, and you have faith in something balanced, you are going to be alright.
When people start going after credit like it’s the most important thing in the world, I immediately notice that those people are the ones who are willing to sell-out the easiest.
I want to ask, did any of y’all know that 20% of the 700 Billion was going to go to ACORN? Now you know why I was not worrying.
Sakaki on September 25, 2008 at 10:27 PM
Are you guys pulling an all nighter too?
Mercy4Me on September 25, 2008 at 10:28 PM
Who would have thought we would have to fight both dailykos and Michelle Malkin?
phronesis on September 25, 2008 at 10:28 PM
This is different. With the destruction in the old brick and mortar media outlets maybe the coasts want a depression. God knows the media’s been in one for a couple years now. Newspapers have been in the soup line for at least 2 years. It’s as if they want to take the rest of us down out of spite.
pc on September 25, 2008 at 10:29 PM
I don’t really understand these accounting rules, but from what you say, Patrick, reversing the ‘mark to market’ rule ought to be part of this bill. Though I think Newt Gingrich or someone said it could be done with a stroke of the SEC Chairman’s pen.
MrLynn on September 25, 2008 at 10:29 PM
You seem to know more about economics than Al Gore knows about the weather, I will give you that, but I don’t follow anyone who speaks in Apocalyptic terms with such certainty on a matter like this.
A market crash? Depends on how you define “Market Crash”. But, OK could be although not a certainty, as that is one thing as we have had a number of what could be considered those before and they seem to be needed to get rid of froth.
Credit crunch? OK, that seems quite plausible. Crunch that is, not come to a long term halt.
But depression, like presumably in the thirties? I sure don’t take that as a given by any means.
I think that you would do better if you didn’t overstate your case.
MB4 on September 25, 2008 at 10:30 PM
Busted!… Obama-Rezko Buddy Blagojevich Caught In Scandal!
Mercy4Me on September 25, 2008 at 10:30 PM
funky chicken:
Due diligence? They have had months, even years to work on this and if the Bush administration and the Fed and a crashing Wall Street together with a global credit crisis had not taken place the Congress, both Republicans and Democrats would still not be working on it, with due diligence or anything else.
The next thing that will blow up in their faces will be social security and they will not do due diligence there either. They will wait until the checks start bouncing and their first priority will be to blame someone else.
Bush tried to make an issue of that and for all the pissing and moaning among Republicans about what a Ponzi scheme it is he could not even get his own party to come up with a reform package.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:30 PM
Sakaki on September 25, 2008 at 10:19 PM
You can kiss my sweet white A8*. Credit is the lifeblood of this country. You are an idiot. If credit dries up the entire economy that we know dries up. this economy doesn’t make things anymore. It sells things. You can only sell things if there is credit. Go learn some economics. I enjoy living in the eocnomic superpower of the world, I enjoy not having to worry about if the store will have enough food on their shelves, I enjoy being able to go out to eat and the dinners having foos in their fridge. I enjoy not having to wonder if I can find gas to get to work, I also enjoy knowing that my having a job is based on my job performance not some idiot in washington or wall street making a bad decsion.
Again you have no idea what you are talking about and until you do refrain from speaking like an idiot.
unseen on September 25, 2008 at 10:31 PM
O/T….
Another Clinton supporter backs McCain.
Miguel Lausell.
csdeven on September 25, 2008 at 10:33 PM
Don’t worry about me. I have saved plenty and will buy up cheap what you can’t make the payments on!
MB4 on September 25, 2008 at 10:33 PM
They are DONE tonight. Time to see if we have an economy or not tomorrow per several commentators here.
CTDeLude on September 25, 2008 at 10:34 PM
You just can’t make it up.
csdeven on September 25, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Crash is apparently a relative term…. And here it is that little ol’ me, among others I’m sure, saw this coming years ago and the great almighty Paulson didn’t.
Admittedly, I didn’t understand all of the underlying factors, I just knew that there was a real-estate bubble that couldn’t be sustained. I don’t recall ever realizing it was caused by a credit-bubble until more recently, but then I’m not a professional.
I guess this problem dawned on Paulson last week sometime. Great work, Paulson.
His name is Robert Paulson. His name is Robert Paulson. His name is Robert Paulson.
FloatingRock on September 25, 2008 at 10:36 PM
You are worried about things. And you can suck on my dick while worrying. Why? Because I’ll be the one who survives, eating the vegetables that I grow, processing the grains that I eat, and not having to worry about a credit crisis because I’ve already paid off all my mortgages.
You know more about economics. Fine. That just means you’re a larger asshole who knows more than nothing. I will not listen to you, I will not listen to naysayers.
I’m gonna turn out fine. You’ll just be throwing yourself from the top of a high-rise.
Now sit down and shut up, Mr. “I want 20% of my bailout to go to ACORN”.
Sakaki on September 25, 2008 at 10:37 PM
I was only intending to link the Fight Club part, not the music video portion….
FloatingRock on September 25, 2008 at 10:37 PM
Sakaki:
My philosophy in life is that you live on the Gulf Coast and someone tells you a big ass hurricane is coming your way, you get hell out of Dodge. You don’t say to yourself, I live a balanced life etc so everything will be ok.
This thing could be kind of like that hurricane. it will not give a rat’s behind what your philosophy of life is. It will just blow you away.
Now do I think it is the end of world? No, but I do think that if the markets crash and we get some really scary economic news in the upcoming weeks the Democrats will win and then you really will see some socialism.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:37 PM
I didn’t believe it either until I saw it happen. I thought the subprime mess would be contained and not spread to all the mortgage market. Then it spread. I thought the mortgage market mess would be contained and not spread to the entire credit market. Then the student loan market became infected. Then auction rate securities billed to people as safe investment were unable to be liquidated as auctions broke down. Then banks started to fail. Then, last week, libor exploded indicating banks were unwilling to lend even among themselves. That means that even banks without toxic debt on their balance sheets will be vulnerable to bank runs. Then I saw the commericial paper market collaspe, indicating the large companies that use it to find their liquidity needs may very well be unable to meet their payrolls.
phronesis on September 25, 2008 at 10:38 PM
Hey….we may disagree, but let’s not become uncivil liberals here okay? Ugly remarks will not let us get anywhere and certainly won’t make you feel better in the long run.
CTDeLude on September 25, 2008 at 10:38 PM
Sakaki:
that whole suck my dick thing kind of makes you look like an ass…just sayin.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:39 PM
phronesis:
Yes, I am taking fire from the left and right, cover me!!
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:40 PM
Again, I think you’ll see that the credit market will not dry up. Those providing the credit will be replaced by those who are fiscally responsible. The free market will fill the void after feeding off the carcasses of those who were the greed merchants.
The market simple needs to know which way this is going to go. Is the gubmint going to saves the assets of the perpetrators of this mess or are they going to allow the free market to swallow them up and put them on the bread lines.
csdeven on September 25, 2008 at 10:40 PM
Greta just announced two more major Clinton supporters, and once policy adviser, endorsed McCain. Miguil Lausell and someone else.
Enoxo on September 25, 2008 at 10:41 PM
I like an FDIC type of insurance for all the bad loans that uncle sam made. On the face of it, it seems to make more sense than a 700 BILLION dollar give-a-way.
Mojave Mark on September 25, 2008 at 10:41 PM
“Taxpayers should wake up the politicians and ask them to tell Wall Street: “We want the same deal Warren Buffett got.” The Omaha billionaire announced he is playing White Knight to Goldman Sachs by investing $5 billion in the endangered investment house. What a big-hearted guy. Buffett is an old-fashioned capitalist who invests in companies for the long term and I am a big admirer. But Warren Buffett did not get to be a billionaire by committing public-spirited acts of charity. He plays to win.”
“So his deal with Goldman Sachs is carefully wired to produce gorgeous returns for Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway. Upfront, he gets a 10 percent ownership stake in preferential shares that will pay a 10 percent dividend–even if Goldman’s stock price keeps falling. But Buffett also gets the right to buy $5 billion in common shares at below the market price. So if Goldman flourishes in these hard times, Buffett will win big as its stock price soars.”
MORE HERE
Chimpy on September 25, 2008 at 10:41 PM
But depression, like presumably in the thirties? I sure don’t take that as a given by any means.
I think that you would do better if you didn’t overstate your case.
MB4 on September 25, 2008 at 10:30 PM
point taken. However think on this. the president of the USa gave a national speech yesterday. In that speech he used very hard words about what awaits us. The President of the USa is job is to give a sense of calm and you have said that the economy is fundementally strong even as it went into the crapper. The man that is the leader of the free world came on TV last night and told you point blank things will be bad if this bailout doesn’t pass. If the President is forced to say this, ask yourself what they aren’t saying. The speech by the president last night should have tipped at least a couple people off about what is coming down the pike if we do nothing.
History has shown that every massive bank failure and credit crunch in this country has been followed by a massive recssion. A massive recssion in my book is a depression. Now if you think this time it will be different that this time we will somehow manage to avoid a depression when history has never shown a time that happening then feel free to live in that reality.
Also don’t forget 1929 was a great year economically. It was a flush with cash, the roaring twenties made many people wealthy, there was a massive credit bubble that improved the lives of many people until one day it fell apart. It was not a slow process into a depression it was a sharp sudden drop. That took 17 years and a world war to get us out of. and during that time we did not have the enemies that we have now. we were not in two wars, we did not have massive forgeign commitmets that protected key places of political and geostratigic balance.
But yeah i might be over doing it a bit. No worries….look a pretty butterfly…
unseen on September 25, 2008 at 10:42 PM
“Perception is reality” is the motto of Democrats, MSM, flat-earthers, and those who still believe that the sun and the moon and the stars orbit around the Earth.
Laurence on September 25, 2008 at 10:42 PM
Floating:
Crash is a relative term? Just keep telling yourself that.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:42 PM
Terrye:
It gets my point across. What’s my point: “Stop worrying and attempting to make people worry. It does nothing for anyone and makes others more likely to club you to death.”
Sakaki on September 25, 2008 at 10:43 PM
You know when I’ll start panicking…When HGTV goes black. I’m watching some early thirties woman going from rent to own in LA. You know what her price range is…450 to 500 thousand! That will land her 600 sqft! Her first home is is going to be half a million! By the way, I didn’t choose to watch HGTV, my wife had it on.
Weight of Glory on September 25, 2008 at 10:43 PM
if mccain shows up to tomorrow’s debate without having put together some kind of plan, i’m voting for obama!
anna on September 25, 2008 at 10:44 PM
Sorry to be so “how I am”, but here you go, girls:
- First of all – and this can be directed to any of the effing nitwit liberals in the MSM who are actively campaigning for HRH The One – why the fu*ck does every, single story that I have read in the past week feature the poster child of the crap at Fannie Mae, doddering Chris Dodd?
- Why does no one point out the inherent idiocy of this?
- Why do, ahem, seemingly intelligent people quote him with little sense of irony?
- Why have we had to wait for Allah to point out only now that HRH The One might be the single most economically illiterate and FNMA-vulnerable ass*hole in the Senate, next to Doddering?
- Who, other than the criminally insane on the left, could say with a straight face that this economic event somehow disfavors McCain, of all people?
Dear G*d, the world has gone insane…
Jaibones on September 25, 2008 at 10:45 PM
csdeven on September 25, 2008 at 10:40 PM
I hope you are right and I am wrong. I am giving the worse case sit. But people need to know the worse to protect themselves. Ask yourself how many homeownwers say I wish I would have bought flood insurance after the flood. I think the same principle is applying here. Also look at the million people that decided to ride out IKE because “how bad could it be”
I’m the type that if the NWS tells me a cat 3-5 hurricane is coming my way I leave. Not the type that says hey let’s have a party and watch the waves come it.
unseen on September 25, 2008 at 10:45 PM
Mojave Mark:
It is not a $700 billion dollar giveaway. In fact there would be equity in the purchase the sale of the assets would go to the Treasury. I think one reason that people have fought this is that they do not understand it.
I did hear that according to Pew 53% support some sort of bailout or government intervention. Of course the 53% is not ranting and raving on talk radio or screaming at their reps, they are hiding money in the walls of their houses. Stuff like that.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Don’t be ridiculous. There is no concensus on this mess, politically (obviously) or economically. I will hold those who think they know the exact answer instantly in much greater contempt than those who spent a week and haven’t “figured it out yet”. Much, much greater contempt.
For these effing scumbags to claim that they suddenly know what to do now begs the very inconvenient question: where the fuck were you two or three years ago?!
Jaibones on September 25, 2008 at 10:48 PM
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:37 PM
hey thinking the same way about that hurricane I see
unseen on September 25, 2008 at 10:49 PM
Sakaki:
It does not get your point across, as soon as I read suck my dick, I stopped reading.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:49 PM
Indeed.
wise_man on September 25, 2008 at 10:50 PM
Posted this on a previous thread but better here:
Thank you Ropera for reminding all of us what is really at stake here. I’ve never lived through a depression and if it were to occur we would all suffer greatly, but our country would survive. Maybe this is our chance and obligation to fight for our country and the principles of freedom. And not cave to socialism because the cost is too high. Time to pay our dues.
blue sky on September 25, 2008 at 10:50 PM
phronesis on September 25, 2008 at 10:50 PM
It gets my point across. What’s my point: “Stop worrying and attempting to make people worry. It does nothing for anyone and makes others more likely to club you to death.”
Sakaki on September 25, 2008 at 10:43 PM
yeah go smoke some more pot and chill… Why worry we have others to do that for us… cool dude…but understand this…hard economic times brings socialism like crap brings flies…so don’t worry about your fellow man your good to go.. what do you care if millions lose their jobs and homes…its all good…pass the joint..
unseen on September 25, 2008 at 10:52 PM
I’m late to this party, but has anyone mentioned how uncomfortable and out of place Obama looked in the meeting with the president?
It was another manifestation that he really, REALLY, is not ready to lead.
csdeven on September 25, 2008 at 10:52 PM
i am pissed that they’ve broken off talks for the night and will reconvene in the morning. stay there all freaking night! i’m concerned about tomorrow but more about what happens monday. i think i’ll be moving my money into t-bills tomorrow.
anna on September 25, 2008 at 10:53 PM
You know people can treat people who are worried about this as if they are stupid or whatever, but I have heard and seen enough things from enough different sources and people in recent days that I am concerned. I hope I am wrong, but I think it would be foolish to just discount all the concern as hysterics.
Charles Krauthammer is not a scaredy cat. He is not a liberal. He is not a fool. I don’t always agree with him, but he is not stupid.
He said that if some kind of agreement is not made here, on this bailout or some other rescue plan for the credit markets, there will be a collapse. Collapse is his word.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:53 PM
It seems clear to me that John McCain knows quite well what he is up to. This initial proposal presented by President Bush was merely a decoy. It does not represent a republican viewpoint, as well having any populist support. By floating out this initial plan and getting the Democratic leadership on board, he has given John Mcain an opening to present a well thought out alternate proposal that takes the direct burden from taxpayers, shores up republican and independent support, boosts his maverick status, and further debunks the Bush third term meme. Do you honestly think that he sat around with his financial advisors including Mitt Romney and played checkers? This will prove to be the tipping point to a McCain presidency. Well played Mr. McCain.
can_con on September 25, 2008 at 10:55 PM
bluesky:
Free market does not mean stupid nor does it mean suicide, financial or otherwise. There is nothing wrong with taking steps to protect your assets. If capitalists just sat back and allowed themselves to be wiped out on a regular basis, capitalism would have ceased to exist a long time ago.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:56 PM
But that’s the problem; we don’t know if this bail out is equivalent to an “evacuation”. Perhaps it’s more like leaving one end of Galveston Island for the other. Nothing has been written yet, no one knows what the plan will be, no one knows if it will be an actual solution. And if Graham is right, and 20% was to go towards ACORN, then it doesn’t make me feel good about the evacuation rout itself. But that is why more of what Graham said needs to come out. THe GOP needs to embarrass Pelosi and Reid and Franks et. al. Not for partisan gain, but so they won’t be trusted with the solution, and the adults can then step in. Anyways, I’m going to bed. Night yall.
Weight of Glory on September 25, 2008 at 10:56 PM
It was another manifestation that he really, REALLY, is not ready to lead.
csdeven on September 25, 2008 at 10:52 PM
saw that then read the quote “San Francisco judges forbidding our Pledge of Allegiance? They will take the phrase ‘under God’ away from me when my cold, dead lips can no longer utter those words,”
and just said hmm who would I rather have as a leader.
unseen on September 25, 2008 at 10:57 PM
I agree with you. Everyone should be doing whatever they can to protect themselves. Buy cases of canned food, water, AMMUNITION, etc.
If the worse happens and we are ALL wrong, even a few weeks of supplies to be self sufficient could make a big difference in your life. And if you keep cash on hand, use small bills, coins etc. If you only have a $20, and you need a loaf of bread, guess how much you’re gonna pay for that loaf of bread?
AND don’t tell ANYONE, especially the government that you have stockpiles. They will take it from you and distribute it to your less than prepared neighbor. Then, not only will the SOB still have your mower from last summer, but he’ll be eating your food also.
csdeven on September 25, 2008 at 10:57 PM
Probably already posted (didn’t look yet), but Michelle has this:
Just heard from several readers that Lindsay Grahamnesty told Fox that the Mother of All Bailouts includes a reported $100 million more in funding for the left-wing housing entitlement thugs and heavily tax-subsidized fraudsters at ACORN. Under the original bailout proposal, apparently, a large portion of any repayment of the $700 billion would go to Barack Obama’s good friends at ACORN with a smaller allocation to debt repayment. Readers heard him say it was 20 percent.
Whiskey.
Tango.
Foxtrot.
No wonder Obama didn’t want to appear to be anywhere near this thing…his name and ACORN coming up in the same sentence, and people might actually start asking questions.
Oh…who am I kidding?
capitalist piglet on September 25, 2008 at 10:58 PM
When Congress “fixed” the S&Ls, it forced them to dump all of their junks bonds at once, collapsing the market and getting dimes for dollars on assets that turned out, over time, to be good in 90% of the cases. Congress should have limited future acquisitions and let those institutions holding the real garbage die.
Why doesn’t Congress come up with a plan to limit future purchases of these risky assets and a method of valuing current assets held based on actual returns on a bundle. This method could be a sliding one that recognize performing but tainted assets less and less over, say, a 5 year period.
For example, if a toxic bundle of mortgages are returning $1,000,000 a year, let the company assume it is realizing a 6% return the first year decreasing to 10% the fifth which implies a value of 16 million the first year grading down to 10 million the fifth. The “value” of the asset a function of the prior years return.
This would give companies time to readjust their portfolios.
Laurence on September 25, 2008 at 10:58 PM
Weight of Glory:
We know this, when there was hope of a bailout the markets went up and stabilized, when that hope faded, they dropped like a rock, when the hope came back they went up again, now the futures are down. These people are not stupid, they are the market. When we talk about free markets and all that stuff, this is what it is. When I see them panic, I panic. So, if it is so important that they get everything just right, then the Congress should be working on it right now. This minute. Not hitting the talk shows and complaining.
Terrye on September 25, 2008 at 10:59 PM
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