Shelby, DeMint now oppose bailout
posted at 9:15 am on September 24, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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It may be time for the Bush administration to start looking for a Plan B. Two Republican Senators have now come out in opposition to the Paulson bail-out plan, and with Democrats like Chris Dodd allying themselves to the conservative rebellion in Congress, the White House has begun looking very isolated in its attempt to resolve the credit crisis. Richard Shelby and Jim DeMint have begun a conservative pushback to rescuing Wall Street from a situation that they claim is all Wall Street’s doing.
First, DeMint:
“There are much better ways of dealing with this problem than forcing American taxpayers to pay for every asset some investor doesn’t want anymore. We should start by reforming government policies and programs that created this mess, including the Federal Reserve’s easy money policy, the congressional charters of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and the Community Reinvestment Act. Then Congress should pass a number of permanent and proven pro-growth reforms to encourage capital formation and boost asset values. We need to make permanent reductions in the corporate tax and the capital gains tax rates. We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world, which encourages companies to take jobs and investment overseas.”
“It’s a sad fact, but Americans can no longer trust the economic information they are getting from this Administration. The Administration said the bailout of Bear Stearns would stop the bleeding and solve the problem, but they were wrong. They said $150 billion in new government spending using rebate checks would solve the problem, but they were wrong again. They said new authority to bailout Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would solve the problem without being used, but they were wrong again. Now they want us to trust them to spend nearly a trillion dollars on more government bailouts. It’s completely irresponsible and I cannot support it.”
The Wall Street Journal profiles Shelby’s opposition:
With anger mounting from the left and right against the Treasury Department’s proposed financial bailout, one of the opponents’ most powerful allies is Alabama Sen. Richard Shelby, a Democrat-turned-Republican who espouses free-market principles with a populist streak.
Mr. Shelby, the ranking member of the Senate Banking Committee, said in an interview Tuesday that he is likely to vote against the proposal. “I’ve never supported a direct bailout,” Mr. Shelby said. “I voted against Chrysler when I was a freshman congressman. They said, ‘Well, Chrysler will fail.’ And well maybe if it’d failed then we wouldn’t have the problems facing us today.” …
“I think we’re going down the road of France now,” Mr. Shelby told one television interviewer Tuesday, before quickly adding, “in all due respect for my French friends.”
While I’m pleased that both Senators are standing up for conservative principles, and from DeMint this comes as no surprise, the fact is that this mess is not just of Wall Street’s making [see update below]. Right now, Congress is doing its level best to pretend it had nothing to do with this failure, and Chris Dodd — as the chair of the committee that was supposed to exercise oversight on this industry — is spinning the fastest. The more Congress can shove the blame entirely onto Wall Street, the better off it looks, but that’s simply not the case.
The heart of this failure came from a mandate by members of Congress from both parties that demanded easier loan terms for marginally-qualified buyers. At first, this meant working-class families, but it also resulted in easier terms all the way through to the highest income levels. Lower qualifiers meant more buyers, and buyers buying bigger houses. The net effect of this was to create a much higher demand for housing and for mortgages.
How did these get structured? The trouble came when people stopped providing solid down payments to ensure equity from the start of the loan. They got adjustable-rate mortgages for loans they couldn’t afford, betting that the quickly-rising price of housing would continue its trajectory and magically give them enough equity by the time the ARMs adjusted so that they could refinance their loans to something affordable. And for a few years, that’s exactly what happened — and so more and more people followed that example.
This produced two other effects. First, the government had Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac sponsor many of these questionable loans and convert them into investment products, which essentially infected the entire investment community with massive, poorly-secured loans. Second, the demand touched off a residential building boom as people attempted to provide inventory for the massive amount of buyers coming into the market.
Unfortunately, this created a big Ponzi scheme, one dictated by Congress and two administrations. It only worked as long as housing prices continued to increase. When the bubble finally popped late last year, it was analogous to the margin calls of 1929, only in slow motion. Once homeowners realized that their houses would not increase in value, they knew that they were stuck in ARMs that they wouldn’t be able to afford. The defaults would not just sink the banks but also the investors who bought the securities.
Who created this Ponzi scheme? Congress did. Who demanded lower qualifiers for home mortgages and then insisted on having Fannie/Freddie turn them into investments to support the lenders? Congress did. The lenders share the responsibility as well, but without Fannie/Freddie making their bad lending decisions profitable, they would never have jumped into the sub-prime market with the kind of enthusiasm they did. Now Congress wants to leave them holding the bag and all the blame — and that’s pretty convenient for Congress.
DeMint gets closer to the truth here than Shelby. Congress didn’t demand that Chrysler build K-cars and other lousy models and poor business practices that led to their bad performance, which is why Congress shouldn’t have had anything to do with the Chrysler bailout. That doesn’t apply here. DeMint, though, rightly points out that this is actually Bailout v4.0 in this crisis, and versions 1-3 didn’t solve the problem.
Taxpayers don’t want to be on the hook for the credit-market failure, but in the end, we’re responsible for Congress. Not many objected when home loans got so plentiful and our home equity skyrocketed over the last ten years. We need a responsible, market-based plan that undoes the damage our Congress created, and that means we’re going to have to shoulder some of the burden in the short term to make it happen. That’s our penalty for letting Congress run wild, and it should result in a lesson learned for the American taxpayer that, in Robert Heinlein’s words, there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. The plan should have accountability for those running it, and it should include a plan to completely dismantle the government’s reach into private lending markets permanently.
Update: I want to clarify something regarding Jim DeMint. He’s really been one of the best voices on this, and he agrees that government got us into this meltdown:
Sen. Jim DeMint, a South Carolina Republican, differed with Schumer, saying Congress should resist the Bush administration’s pleas for the legislation. He said, “The government broke it. I don’t trust them to fix it.”
DeMint isn’t passing the buck. He’s got the right diagnosis. Now we need Congress to fix what it broke, and to keep itself from breaking more in the future.
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Limey that is true for large markets but the MBS and CDO market is not large enough. There aren’t enough players to accurately value these securities on the same scale as, say, used cars. There is no Blue Book value for these things.
It’s a different ballgame when you’re talking about $100 million+ securities. These securities are valued, currently, by accounting laws and rules, which are forcing prices to false lows.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 12:09 PM
Go Shelby! Wall Street does NOT deserve a taxpayer bailout!
Shelby on September 24, 2008 at 12:10 PM
Question, since part of the problem is Sarbains Oxleys forcing people to price assets at essentialy fire sale prices….
Could you fix this by allowing companies to base their valuations on how long they expect to keep the asset before selling? IE, if you are holding that loan until maturity, you get the full valuation… if you expect to flip it then you value it at todays market (fire sale right now). If you expect to hold it for 5 years then the valuation would be based on an expected market price 5 years from now?
Romeo13 on September 24, 2008 at 12:10 PM
My head is starting to hurt reading all your comments.
I need some advil.
upinak on September 24, 2008 at 12:10 PM
Romeo, everyone would just then say they were holding it to maturity to fix their balance sheets. But the cancerous securities are still they’re, and they’re still essentially black boxes which are very difficult to really value.
And to CC, I quote a newsletter I read recently:
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 12:13 PM
The FED would only handle large commercial transactions. For my small business, I’d still go to a local commercial bank … it is for your example of Exxon needing $300 million for a new rig. Not suggesting we do away with all commercial banks … but we could certainly do away with Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs … they’ve already conceded their inviability by changing their business charters to align with traditional commercial banking operations.
We’d just be admitting that our banking system has always been nationalized since 1913 when we established the FED.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 12:15 PM
Which raises the excellent point of how did their accountants provide them a clean statement??
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 12:15 PM
you are right. The problem is that there are two goals we should reach and not only one. Save the credit market and punish those who brought the credit market on the brink of collapsing.
Otherwise they’ll be saved this time, they won’t have learned anything and they’ll bring us in the same situation in 10-15 years.
There are many culprits: the dems who altered the lending standards to favor “discriminated” borrowers, the FED who followed a too lax monetary policy and the analysts and investors in many banks who didn’t think too much about what they were doing.
Now, about the first and second we cannot do much (I mean the dems will always be dems and the fed hopefully will learn from its mistake for the future), but we can punish the third group so that in the future they will pay attention and not play with somebody else’s money.
Also consider that those economists are not just complaining. They also proposed solutions. See for example here
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/opinion/23kashyap.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=opinion&adxnnlx=1222179247-ZgG84Wen3mu6GoVvCERLYg
or here
http://research.chicagogsb.edu/IGM/video/credit-crisis.aspx
or here
http://faculty.chicagogsb.edu/luigi.zingales/Why_Paulson_is_wrong.pdf
I mean, we should not give a blank check to the Treasury and the risk of being stuck with bad paper for the next ten years without having solved the underlying problem.
Disclosure: I study finance at Chicago. I am quoting Chicago profs because I know them but there are many others in the profession that have the same take on the problem.
aso on September 24, 2008 at 12:16 PM
I appreciate what you’re getting at, but I think it’s clear we belong to two very different schools of economic thought.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 12:16 PM
Actually no. Buffet made his deal for these reasons as best described here:
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/09/i-got-75b-but-i.html
However if my analysis is even remotely accurate as to the Treasury cleaning its books Buffet would certainly benefit as he has a five year warrant to buy 44 million shares of GS at 115 all the while getting 5% on his 5 billion dollar investment.
Buffet did not get his billions by giving you a good deal. He picks his spots. Definitely read the link.
patrick neid on September 24, 2008 at 12:17 PM
Hmmmm… further question….
Hows about….
Open up the Fed so ANY institution can get loans at the Prime Rate… BUT anything they use that money for, they HAVE to hold until maturity?
Essentialy create a contractual obligation that freezes that asset, but then funds it at the prime rate…
Companies still have to hold their bad debt, but it will put liquidity into the system, and give them time to recover.
Romeo13 on September 24, 2008 at 12:17 PM
I think you’d soon run into bigger problems when people realize there’s even less reason to have confidence in the ability to accurately stake out ‘expected’ prices.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 12:18 PM
Indeed. Some people better get used to picking up soap.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 12:20 PM
My suggestions:
1. Kill the CRA
2. Rescind/modify SOX/FASB157 so that financial firms do not have to mark to market, but are allowed to use historical cost (with footnotes) or a modified average.
3. Since Fran and Fred own most of the subprime, appoint an administrator to repackage and sell to investors (there is a lot of money on the sidelines) I think this is what Buffet is planning to do via Goldman Sachs. This would clear a lot of the mess at a much lower cost than the current package.
4. Reduce or remove cap gains tax on real estate investments made pursuant to 3. This would encourage more money off the sidelines.
5. Allow more than just commercial banks access to the discount window, to keep the commercial paper flowing.
I see the package as currently proposed as more of a bandaid than cure. Doing the above will hurt the market, true. It would be like excising a tumor – it hurts now, but two years from now, you feel better, and don’t have cancer.
Vashta.Nerada on September 24, 2008 at 12:20 PM
Haha, fair enough.
Now, honest question — can we afford to hold out for another answer? I was opposed to compromise on illegal immigration because to me the status quo was and is preferable to amnesty. Is this a similar situation? It seems that the status quo is…not that great and potentially devestating.
—–
Limey, if I were KingForTheDay I suspect you would cheer me on as I made a flurry of changes. What one wants and what’s available are, unfortunately, two different things.
It’s kind of like the people out there who are refusing to vote for McCain on their principles. I’m not a huge fan, either, but he’s preferable to The One.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 12:21 PM
Opposition is the easier argument to make. Both campaigns are full of talk about opposition to this or that.
The harder work is coming up with a better or best plan.
What is DeMint’s suggested plan? Or yours, Ed. It sounds like you are saying it is up to government to get us out of the mess they got us into (”Now we need Congress to fix what it broke), but then also that we don’t trust the government to that exact same task (“The government broke it. I don’t trust them to fix it.”).
Am I misunderstanding something here?
Otherwise, please pick a side.
connertown on September 24, 2008 at 12:23 PM
I would only cheer you if you abdicated your authority and crown ;)
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 12:23 PM
Thank you Vashta. I think that would be a thing to do, with doubleplus cheers for #1 – the root of all evil, as it were.
However, this does not fix the problem of the value of these securities. They’re still black boxes. Do you see the need for a Resolution Trust Corp to re-rate them?
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 12:26 PM
Earlier I agreed that we could temporarily rescind SOX … but now thinking on it that really does nothing to fix the trust/confidence issue.
Basically we’d be allowing the seller to overstate the market price of their assets based on a potential future buyer at their believed future price which is how we got into this mess in the first place … this kind of contract pricing assumes no contraction in pricing (i.e. recessionary factors). Future market prices cannot drive current asset values unless there is already a future buyer at the future value on an agreed contract AND (here’s the rub) … the counterparties involved in these contracts are well capitalized to honor the contracts and still believe the future values are accurately represented (which they don’t due to recessionary factors).
Basically, many of these banking institutions believed they had invented perpetual money machines that defied the natural economic sine cycles (i.e. up/down/up/down) …
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM
A trillion dollar bailout would usher in corruption like nothing seen before and set a precedent we’d never see the end of. Squash this corruption before it infects this open wound.
Ernest on September 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM
I think this subject heading, this thread, shows how vitally important a site like “Hot Air” is to America. I would never be able to find information this dead on, this complete, this “common sense,” in my local, liberal newspaper.
In a very real sense, Hot Air and web sites like it, can actually be important factors in saving America from the out of control, dumb ass congress we are currently stuck with. The views presented here, by DeMint and Shelby MUST get wider distribution. You can see in the polls that too many idiots are running like lemmings, toward the “Change” Barack Obama is offering, to “fix” this mess. They don’t understand that his type of thinking is the PROBLEM, not the SOLUTION!
Star20 on September 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM
Probably, which is the crux of the matter. How much does it cost, and can we not spend money on auditors, then sell the underlying securities to investors, instead of dumping them on the taxpayers? I am perfectly happy to spend my own money buying into a fund that pays 50/100 for these, I am much less happy having my tax dollars handed over do something less transparent.
Vashta.Nerada on September 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM
I understand where you are coming from, but the current situation is that mark to market has pushed down the market price of all securities in a tranche because a few percent have defaulted, so the problem is in the other direction. If we suspended or modified the rule, the firms could mark down the known bad paper, not everything, which is going on now.
Vashta.Nerada on September 24, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Could a pause on this result in banking holidays (ala Great Depression) … yes.
Could a pause on this result in some business failures … yes.
Could a pause on this result in societal chaos (bank runs, looting, cats mating with dogs, etc.) … yes.
But honestly, can we hold out for another answer … yes.
This bailout doesn’t guarantee these things won’t happen in the natural progression of the recessionary/depressionary cycle we entered in late 2007 …it just makes Paulson’s banker buddies closer to whole and does nothing to address the underlying fundamental issues.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Don’t forget we already federalized IndyMac.
Chuck Schick on September 24, 2008 at 12:44 PM
Fair enough. I think it’s apparent that though we perhaps differ on how to fix it, we agree on the main things: 1) there’s a problem 2) it’s government’s fault 3) the free market is the best solution
The question is how do you free the market to fix it? The free market only works with information…which is why I see the need for transparency as the critical path.
To be honest, the folks on Wall Street aren’t all that risk averse and the thought of taking losses doesn’t generally shake them. If we could accurately price these things and get them out into the light of day, the thought of dumping the junk to keep the valuable loans would probably jump the market though many banks stand to lose quite a bit of money.
So here’s to a Resolution Trust Corp to re-rate these loans…which was what I understood the primary purpose of the Paulson-Bernanke plan to be from the get-go.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 12:45 PM
I think we are all taking this seriously. We simply have different opinions on what should be done.
And in response to your point, you’d be surprised how fast those businesses will be replaced. I suspect there are thousands of speculators with billions of dollars just waiting to fill the void.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 12:45 PM
k2aggie07, what you’re saying seems to make sense overall. But my question is this: why the hell aren’t the politicians, Paulson, the investment banks, etc, explaining themselves in these terms?
If what you’ve been posting is an accurate reflection of their goals and thinking, then they’d better start explaining themselves. Because at this point they don’t have a scintilla of credibility. And even if those were the actual goals, few would trust them to not somehow subvert the whole process and line their pockets as the ship continues to sink, only to come back later with even greater demands.
Matteo on September 24, 2008 at 12:47 PM
All for that as long as we don’t get Bernanke’s “mark-to-maturity” approach. Everything gets marked in present value terms and losses are appropriated.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Problem is that the plan is NOT just loans, its morphed into all debt, even go so far as to bail out foreign banks.
and as the Gov has already seized Fannie and Freddie, can’t we just use those entitys to accomplish this? Why the 700 Billion slush fund?
Romeo13 on September 24, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Unlike many of the other opponents of the bailout here, you see the possible ramifications of inaction quite clearly. But I don’t understand how you can greet them with such insouciance. “Letting it burn” will reduce tax receipts to a fraction of what they are now, so the government will pay for this one way or another. At least the bailout provides a chance for the taxpayers to recoup those loses over time. And erasing half of this country’s wealth overnight will lurch us so far to the left that when we come out of it, we will make sweden look like laissez faire capitalists. Between moral hazard and Great Depression 2.0, moral hazard is undoubtedly the lesser of two evils.
phronesis on September 24, 2008 at 12:51 PM
That is my conclusion also. Certain fat cats are affected by this, but there are plenty of smart financially conservative folks (with lots of cash)out there that could replace them very nicely.
We have to get away from the idea that the established conglomourates are the ONLY people who can handle this. They’re the ones who created this mess, so I say…..
SCREW THEM!
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Romeo, my understanding of the $700 billion was that it was the maximum amount of capital to be spent on buying these funds. It wasn’t a mind boggling number to me because the losses from this whole thing are expected to be in the trillions.
As you can see from my posts, I understood this thing to be priced at a “reasonable” price — something which reflected real default rates, which would be somewhere between current market price (stupidly low due to FASB157 and SOx) and face value (high because of ~5% default rates market wide, more in some and less in others).
Even so, if you bought all MBS at face value it is likely that they would still be OK. Like I said earlier, you have to have a lot of defaults at a nasty severity rate to really cut into the potential profit of people who make their mortgage payments…as most people have been doing, and will continue to do.
I think you are correct that this should be limited to MBSs and CDOs, not all debt that exists in the world. There is much more transparency in other areas. Most bond ratings are, to my understanding, still valid.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Financial analysts recast the reports for firms, to reflect various factors. Give them data, and they will estimate the impact on income, asset ratios, pension obligations and various other factors.
The income received on a mortgage-based security shows a current measure of vslue. ["Cash is a fact. Earnings are an opinion."]
Bottom line: Give the market reliable information on who holds mortgage-backed securities, the current income and book value for the securities, and the market will sort it out quickly.
In the current mess, EVERYTHING is suspect. Put out information under an exception to Mark-to-Market, and only firms with the problem are affected.
Right_of_Attila on September 24, 2008 at 12:56 PM
You’ll be in the soup lines at least a year before the fat cats.
phronesis on September 24, 2008 at 12:56 PM
This is all over my head. I just don’t want the people responsible for this mess profitting. I want them held accountable. I don’t want greedy Americans living in bigger shinier homes than the one I have leaving me to pay their mortgage and mine. I only want the government to do the absolute least it must in order to save the economy from total meltdown. I don’t want it to take on student loans, credit card debt or anything else. I don’t want to live, or leave my children to live in a socialized hell hole. I also don’t want them to live in utter economic chaos.
Smarter minds than I will have to tell me if that is at all possible. Right now, there just seems to be confusion from everyone who can actually implement policy. Scary and exciting times indeed.
pannw on September 24, 2008 at 12:57 PM
My basic problem with the current plan is the reverse auction (how do you auction with no known value)? The other problem is that we have effectively bought some institutions, and will buy only the ‘bad debt’ of others. The surviving firms will basically have their balance sheets cleaned at taxpayer expense, while the firms taken over will be quasi-governmental agencies. If we can structure the proposed package in a much closer way to the RTC, I am on board.
Vashta.Nerada on September 24, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Get the government completely out of it. Government is what messed it up. If the bailout plan does not end the government pressuring to give money to people who, based on normal reasonable loan practices cannot handle it (whether that is for poor or middle-class or rich borrowers leveraging), then it should be sent back for reworking.
McCain may have an opportunity to reject it, but step up with some strong prudent suggestions on how it can be reworked in a way to prevent this from happening again.
Sapwolf on September 24, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Not certain there. Moral hazard is a very slippery slope.
What happens if we go with the bailout and suddenly a majority of individuals who owe private debt say “wall street didn’t have to pay for their mistakes so I’m not going to pay anymore either … where’s my bailout?” That is why this bill will be 2+ trillion dollars when all is said and done as the politicians add anyone and everyone to the bailout …
Ultimately, we’re in a catch-22 situation, and I’d rather err on the side of bad consequences following bad actions … we still get a prolonged recession (or depression) either way.
We either fight our slide towards socialism (no bailout) or we are willing accept it (eschew personal responsibility for our actions). We’ve been heading down the path of the latter for years and this may be the apex of the cultural battle in our country …
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 1:02 PM
A suggestion?
Let them fail and WATCH a true free market at work! Those scum will be sitting outside of Wall Street in a month while the market starts back on a positive track. WHY? Because people want to make money. And in every crash is opportunity.
We just have to have the courage to allow the entrenched good old boys take responsibility for their disastrous policies and get comfortable with a new group of movers and shakers.
This desire to protect the guilty is all this is about.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 1:03 PM
I don’t understand all the sudden fever for populism. Since when is being a “fat cat” something to be derided? A lot of people made a lot of money in the market under completely legitimate transactions. Why call them greedy? Were you complaining when your house value jumped and you moved into a new house? Or when your 401(k) was growing?
Good grief. Kick the corrupt ones out, which would include most of the senate banking committe, but by and large the market was going along with government coercion. What did you want them to do? Not make the loans and get sued by the Federal Government? Not rationally get rid of the bad debt when the government wanted to buy it back? This isn’t Wall Street’s fault — they played the game and they’re losing money (believe me Lehman is not happy about it) but they’re at least partially victims in this two.
The blame lies solely on the shoulders of the government. Fat Cats indeed…
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 1:05 PM
I saw this yesterday on Seeking Alpha. Seems appropriate.
phronesis on September 24, 2008 at 1:06 PM
Problem is that no one is really sure what Bernake is talking about… yesterday in the hearings he spoke of “full mature price”… whether that means face value, or somthing else, we don’t know.
Our underlieing problem is that we have too many middlemen trying to make money and game the game… and now have messed the rules up so far that no one knows what the rules are anymore.
IMO the best thing to do would be to take Fannie and Freddie, and make them a Federal Holding company for mortgages… able to draw directly from the 2% Prime lending rate, BUT, that they don’t resell loans to investors, or anyone else. Its sorta of what they were origionaly intended to be… and I have no problem with the US government, who creates the dang cash anyway, directly helping out its people (not just loaning fat cat bankers money who then loan it through about 5 cutouts to the people).
Romeo13 on September 24, 2008 at 1:08 PM
You don’t understand the stakes here, I think. If the commercial paper market fails the collateral damage would be most of the financial transactions in this country. And, by the way, a TRUE free market has never existed. Frankly, I’m not sure I would know one if I saw it. Your ideals are limiting the scope of your vision. Seriously.
Irish, the distinction, though, is that though the people who bought the houses and are now defaulting definitely have some blame, the banks were pressured — heavily — into making these loans. It’s not quite the same scenario for other debt. The *real* greedy people are those buying houses on mortgages they couldn’t afford, not the banks making the loans.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 1:09 PM
No I wont. I am prepared for this stuff.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 1:12 PM
I don’t use the term “fat cats” as an all encompassing description of wealthy people. If you’d bother to read what I wrote, you’d know that. I am simply saying that those who did this need to burn in financial hell and the new wealthy folks will replace them. And I guarantee you THEY wont make the same stupid mistakes based on greed.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 1:16 PM
Spot on. Now, we just have to keep the feds from adding student loans and credit cards to the mix. Like one poster in the headlines said, ‘if they add Hillary’s campaign debt to the package, you’ll know they jumped the shark’.
Vashta.Nerada on September 24, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Many businesses survived.
I WONDER HOW?
It’s called being fiscally responsible.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Demagogues. Post their addy’s so we’ll know where to show up with the pitchforks. They were cute during the little Immigration brohuahua. Now they need to sit down and STFU.
pc on September 24, 2008 at 1:17 PM
OK.. thats it in a nutshell.
Congress = Police
People buying Ninja Loans(No Income No Asset) = Crack addicts/first time users
Lenders = aggressive crack and dope dealers, peddling to kids at the school yard.
Fannie/Freddie = either the Crack House since that’s where the people are stuck outside of.. or a very very bad Drug Rehabilitation center, sure what one.
Chakra Hammer on September 24, 2008 at 1:18 PM
All apologies to possum holler, Jimbo, but gotta go with Berdanke on this one.
pc on September 24, 2008 at 1:19 PM
The last Great Depression brought us the New Deal, i.e. a whole lot of socialism. Why would this time be different? If you win this battle for laissez faire and our economy goes to hell, people will be clamoring for much more government intervention. And President Obama, who will win if the market crashes and the deep recession begins in force, will be more than happy to give it to them.
phronesis on September 24, 2008 at 1:19 PM
I don’t care about saving the asses of those who caused this. The fact remains that any NEED in the market WILL be filled. In my theory, it WONT be filled by the same scum who caused this.
Commercial paper doesn’t exist on it’s own correct? I mean people and businesses have to manage it. So, lets allow the current crop of morons who manage it take it in the ass and new folks will rise up in their place.
What will happen is that if we bail these scumbags out, they will find a way to manipulate this bailout and turn it to their own advantage in 5 years. So not only did they cause this and avoid responsibility, but they get to profit from it in 5 years.
No, I don’t think so. They can lose their fortunes and possessions as a punishment for their fiscal irresponsibility.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 1:23 PM
Paulson wasn’t buddies with Bear or Lehman and the shareholders there took big losses. Evidently, he told Thain that he had to sell his company. A lot of banks were holding GSE preferreds that Paulson decided he wouldn’t pay the dividend on.
dedalus on September 24, 2008 at 1:26 PM
If they don’t get this right, well there are worse things for a congressman than not being reelected, friends. With my little ring I can take them apart molecule by molecule and then put them back together again. And maybe I put them back together right and maybe I don’t. But they’ll be alive and conscious for every second of it.
HalJordan on September 24, 2008 at 1:37 PM
Er, yeah about your thesis there … I didn’t claim that Paulson had banker buddies at Bear or Lehman. In fact, it is interesting that Bear and Lehman were allowed to fail while his real buddy, Goldman Sachs, was re-chartered this week and would be the primary beneficiary of the proposed bailout.
King Henry (former CEO and Chairman of GS for 10 years) gets to choose which companies survive … even though GS is leveraged in crap Level 3 assets to the same levels that Bear and Lehman were.
The more you know.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 1:38 PM
So every business that went bankrupt in the Great Depression did so because they had fiscally irresponsible owners? Macro-economic forces had nothing to do with it? A store owner who has no customers for a years will stay in business if he’s “fiscally responsible”? That is the height of absurdity.
phronesis on September 24, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Errr….you what now?
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 1:40 PM
phronesis on September 24, 2008 at 1:40 PM
In brightest day, in blackest night, no evil congressman shall escape my sight.
HalJordan on September 24, 2008 at 1:45 PM
Your point was that businesses failed because they had no control. My point was, AND STILL IS….
How did ANY businesses survive?
Luck or fiscally responsible behavior?
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 1:50 PM
As regards all the talk of establishing “fair value” you can’t arrive at that in a forced environment that we find ourselves in at the moment in large part because of the demands of marking things to the market. If there is no market you can’t mark as they say.
That established, I’m against the bailout because it is the opposite of a forced market–it is a contrived market. As with the other it is not possible to establish a value–it’s pricing in a vacuum. It is sinning without contrition on my dime no less. I want housing prices to find their own level on their own time.
Free marketeers, such as myself simply want this regulation lifted so that the owners of all the paper, the good, bad and ugly, can sit around on their own dime and time and figure out what they want to do with the stuff. Their decision to hold, fold or raise will be determined by their own books, appraisers and the like. Then each participant can make up their own mind without the gun that is currently being held at their heads by a law passed by clueless idiots several years ago.
The reason that the market values the paper at pennies on the dollar is because everyone is being forced to sell at the same time. In the futures market its known as lock limit down. It is exactly what happened to silver in 1980 when the exchange said liquidation only. Lock limit for 21 days. It’s exactly what happened in 1987 when S&P portfolio insurance caused the market to keep triggering more selling as it opened limit down preventing price discovery and panic as people were locked in.
It is a technicality from a shitty bill, driven by background fundamentals that is forcing all the selling.
Will my approach prevent the market from possibly trading 20-30% lower. No. And I make no pretense at such. What I am saying is that the market will do what it needs to do if you remove the artificial restraints that prevent or force price discovery.
Will a 1000 banks go under despite this–probably. No matter what we do we are not walking away from a bubble without being covered in splat. I just don’t want Paulson and crew adding to the mess.
But fear not all you gloom and doomers threatening depressions, you will get what you want. They will pass a bailout, later to be described as inadequate when it doesn’t work. Then we’ll have this discussion again about another bigger problem. Each time, as it has since 1979 with Chrysler, the price to get back to the free market will even be higher.
patrick neid on September 24, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Let’s vote on it.
Who is in favor of letting the entire global economy come crashing down in flames overnight(by allowing the credit markets to come to a halt)…which will cause a worldwide great depression….massive amounts of bankruptcy’s…a 60% unemployment rate..homeless mobs roaming the streets looking to steal and kill for food and the inevitable socialist revolution that will follow?
And who is in favor of allowing the Government to essentially become a guarantor of loans and bailout the economy with borrowed money from china?
SaintOlaf on September 24, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Chakra you’re spouting some terribly populist rhetoric. In this case, though, congress wasn’t the police. Congress was corrupt pushers, because they forced the lenders to loosen their standards. That’s a terribly bad analogy.
Er, you don’t know what commercial paper is, do you? It’s just excess capital that companies loan out to other companies. When you say “the current crop of morons who manage it” you’re talking about nearly every large corporation in the US.
So because the government is terrible and pushes sketchy lending practices…and then enables worse lending practices by federally backed pseudocorporations, private corporations who are really innocent bystanders who have nothing to do with the RMBS or CDO fiasco should take the hit?
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Ed, this is one of your finest articles ever. Well done, sir.
philwynk on September 24, 2008 at 1:55 PM
A huge amount of both.
phronesis on September 24, 2008 at 1:56 PM
Patrick a completely unregulated free market is about as viable as a completely unregulated free nation. Anarchy in any form is not ok.
Are the current accounting rules great? No…but under “normal” circumstances marked-to-market pricing protects the buyer from fraud. That’s the purpose for most regulation, no? When you say return to a free market, which era of capitalism are you referring to? Pre-railroad days, when the aggregated wealth on wall street was a few paltry percents of the total wealth of the nation? Are you wanting to go back to the 20s? The 40s?
Regulations are as necessary as laws…but just as with laws, they have to be smart, svelte, and transparent. The current rules are bad — I’m with you — but you sound like you want football with no refs.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 2:00 PM
Isn’t the banking committee the one where the attemppt to rein in Freddie and Fannie died in 05 or 06? The legislation that McCain and other Repubs were pushing? I know Dodd is crooked and he was the ranking Democrat back then, but the Repubs had the chair, who I think was Shelby at the time. Anyone more knowledgeable than me know if his hands are clean?
RINO in Name Only on September 24, 2008 at 2:01 PM
And because we have all seen a depression and have learned from the mistakes, fiscal responsibility by the right people will get us out of this. They will feed on the financial corpses’ of the current pack of scum that caused this mess.
Luck wont be why we survive. The right people with the right philosophy will save us.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 2:03 PM
csdeven the pack of scum that caused this mess is out of reach of your free market depression. The market grows, the government grows; the market recedes, the government grows. Businesses come and go, but the government abides.
A depression won’t fix the problem, because the problem is in DC.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 2:06 PM
Cut out the middle man. Just pay my house off for me.
I cant see giving money to these boneheads that screwed it all up with their loan ads all day on TV. They us to pay for a bailout AND us to pay our loans still? hmmmm
johnnyU on September 24, 2008 at 2:07 PM
The good ole’ USA will be lost if we the people allow this travesty of a bailout to proceed! How can ANY good American not see this for what it is, ESPECIALLY conservatives?
Let’s review this simple plan that is being forced on us.
A)It is a blank check to Wall Street and the Fed for them to use as they see fit. I mean we don’t have to worry about cronyism or profiteering in the face of crisis by these financiers do we?
B)The Fed doesn’t want to put a cap on the salaries and bonuses of company execs as a stipulation to bailout because it might lead to them not taking the deal. WHAT??!!??!
C)We are told that Congress must pass this deal by Friday in order for our country to avert financial meltdown.
B+C= extortion! We are literally being robbed at gunpoint by our own government and corporate America. I say screw these guys and let the chips fall where they may. I’ll take a depression (although that will not happen. The worst outcome should be a recession) over being bullied and stepped on by what is apparently a rotten, extremely socialist-robber baron government. People as a conservative, Republican voting American, I’m telling you, Republicans are no better than Democraps in all of this, or at least it seems to me right now.
I applaud Shelby and Demint right now. I don’t fear this economy in crisis at all. Right now my government has me extremely worried that we may be veering into some fascist (look up the definition if you think I’m going overboard with that term)nightmare. I am not a troll…I am usually one of the most outspoken conservative Republicans you will meet.
Goodeye_Closed on September 24, 2008 at 2:08 PM
That’s what I said. They can suffer their consequences. Believe me, there are plenty of folks with money that will replace them very nicely.
They were not forced. Their greed to make HUGE profits has turned on them. Yes, they get to take the hit. After all, they are the ones who buy off our politicians to give them the leeway to engage in these practices.
And by the way, I did not allow my lenders talk me into buying more home than I could afford. I am fiscally responsible and don’t take risks that I can’t afford. Why should they avoid the consequences for taking more risk than they could afford?
You’re right, they are….
Dumb, dumb, dumb.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 2:11 PM
Goodeye, over the past 3 months commercial paper outstanding has dropped by almost 25% while the interest demanded for it has spiked from 3% to 5%. This isn’t a made up thing.
As for B), why should the fed put a cap on the pay of a CEO of a publicly held corporation? You people are totally bamboozled by the media and are eating up the populist crap that this scandal lies at the feet of Wall Street execs. The blame resides in Washington! This is 100% the Left’s problem, and every time you say “but greed” you let them off the hook.
Stop blaming the wrong crowd.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 2:13 PM
They why are they pressuring their bought and paid for politicians to abscond with 1 trillion dollars of the tax payers money?
They are over extended and need the money to save their asses.
And I agree that the problem is in DC also.
Believe me, they are next.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 2:14 PM
csdeven the commercial paper market has nothing to do with the mortgage backed security mess! You’re advocating throwing the baby out with the bathwater and you don’t even know it.
And yes, yes the lenders were forced to loan this money. The idea of predatory lending is a sham, a cover to point the finger away from government’s involvement in all this. The government forced this through legislation and lawsuits. You’ve been duped and don’t even know it.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 2:15 PM
Did or did they not (the corporations) engage in these practices voluntarily? If you can prove that they were lied to, then I’d take a second look at your suggestion. But my impression is that these people saw a loophole they thought they could exploit for huge profits. Well, they were short sighted and they greeded themselves into financial disaster.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 2:17 PM
Are you saying that their are never ANY corrupt police?
Hmmmmm..
Chakra Hammer on September 24, 2008 at 2:17 PM
Hmmmm…. just figured out MY price for supporting this as a Tax payer…
I’ll support it as soon as everyone on the House and Senate Banking commitees, chairman of the SEC, and Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank, agree to resign over it.
THEY are the ones who led us into this mess… THEY should be held accountable for the mess.
Romeo13 on September 24, 2008 at 2:19 PM
Corporate culpability:
http://financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/amerman/2008/0917.html
-Dennis
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 2:20 PM
All of you blaming the ‘fat cats’ please read the following for a factual history of the problem.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=307061229501695
and this is part two:
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=306978378974502
This will give you a basic understanding of what happened and who caused it. Following the real estate crash, the financial markets are facing a lack of credit, due to the mark to market rules imposed after Enron depressing their balance sheets, and therefore ability to raise capital. The lack of access to commercial paper will constrain most midsize and larger businesses. I don’t see a repeat of the depression, but it is much more than a blip.
Vashta.Nerada on September 24, 2008 at 2:21 PM
Watch that, the corrupt Policeman(Congress) Dodd and Obama were taking Bribes from the Crack House(Fannie/Freddy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiEWCnpNnBQ
Chakra Hammer on September 24, 2008 at 2:21 PM
Banking committee? Didn’t Senator Obama say that was his committee?
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 2:22 PM
What do you mean voluntarily? Look, the banks that are failing are over leveraged, and that’s their fault. It is ridiculous to assume that to make money you need to be leveraged out 1:30 or more. If you can’t make money without leveraging that heavily, you don’t need to be in business. However, many of the banks that are on the brink of collapse or are being brought down with the system are following the rules and investing in securities that had good ratings.
If you go to the store and buy milk that says expiration date two weeks from today, and it’s rotten when it gets home, are you stupid and greedy? These securities had AAA ratings from third parties. That’s why they’re everywhere. That’s why it’s such a mess.
Not to mention the fact that many of the loans that are default were pushed by the government through CRA legislation, lawsuits and threats, under the guise of ending discrimination in lending — or a way to ensure that anyone could buy a home. The guy buying a house to flip who got caught in the flack is the exception, not the rule. A lot of it is just people who had no business buying homes in the first place — and even then, the default rates are low.
Its not the real value that’s causing this, it’s the lack of transparency caused by sketchy accounting practices, mainly from Fannie and Freddy…which were protected and endorsed by villains in the senate and congress.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 2:22 PM
“The broader credit markets cannot be allowed to fail. The real economy will be hit hard if they do.”
DrSteve on September 24, 2008 at 10:21 AM
____________________________________________________________
Yes they can be allowed to fail, that’s the American way, and yes, the economy will take a hard hit. That’s the price we ALL pay. we the citizens are as big a part of the problem as government and business.
We rebuild and do it right this time.
Truth is Steve, we don’t have the money for this bailout and we REALLY don’t have the credit to “borrow” it from ourselves.
Something’s not right about all of this. this seems to be an intentional crisis. It could not have just come from thin air without anyone noticing or doing anything to correct it. If we were blindsided or the powers that be saw it coming and didn’t do anything to correct it, we are either governed by fools who we will be a lost cause with anyways….or we are governed by crooks and devious planners who have just hijacked America.
Just think about the founding fathers and our constitution and match it up with what’s going on now. We are WAY off track and heading into the unknown where anything is possible, none of it good.
Goodeye_Closed on September 24, 2008 at 2:23 PM
My point is that new people will infuse new money. Unfortunately the good old boys traditional position of power will be lost to them. There is no way they should get any of this money.
I do agree that the problem exists in Washington also.
But I have seen lenders suggest the falsification of documents to secure a larger loan. And I can’t imagine that these corporations did not know that was happening.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 2:25 PM
Which goes to their ability to manage another 700 billion dollars. It was greed that blinded them to the possibility that the milk was bad. I remember lots of people warning about this 3 years ago.
If my neighbors are warning me the milk is bad irrespective of the date, well, I’m gonna take a second look.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 2:29 PM
I agree totally with that statement. But I’m not going to give a pass to those who were warned of this years ago. The people who have been caught with these bad investments are just the last guy caught with it. They all hold the note long enough to make a profit and then send it down the road.
Well, they want us to take the note.
SCREW THEM! They can hold it.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Well, which ever way this goes, we can only hope that all of Dodd’s and Frank’s constituents that voted for them (and will vote for them again) lose everything they have. Same for every other Democrat on the Banking Committee.
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 2:32 PM
WTF?
I have said from the beginning of this thread that the mark to market proviso of The Saranes-Oxley bill signed into law at the end of July 2002 to prevent fraud of the type that Enron perpetrated is the culprit. Much has been written about this bill. I was against that bill because everything it said it wanted to do already existed in law. The fact some laws were unevenly enforced, like existing immigration laws, is not my purview.
Which free market to return to? The one before this bailout. I am simply saying leave the market alone during periods of crisis. We already have move than enough rules and regs. If you recall that was the complaint against Sarbanes to begin with. It was a useless bill that has cost billions of dollars in compliance while accomplishing not a thing. It was a panacea for the times.
The market’s primary reason for existence is to deal with crisis, allocate risk and capital formation. As to making money on individual investments/stocks, that’s a speculative bonus for the participants. I trust the marketplace. I don’t trust small groups of people, no matter how qualified, to arrive at the same decision that the market will.
So here, I’ll put an exact date on my free market, June 2002!
patrick neid on September 24, 2008 at 2:35 PM
Paulson was CEO of Goldman? Thought that had been pretty well known.
The thesis then becomes that Paulson is trying to help, not Wall Street, but Goldman only? It could follow from that notion that he wasn’t bailing out Wall Street, but rather helping to kill off Goldman’s competitors.
I doubt he could engineer this financial melt-down that precisely, though I do think he was glad help see that Jimmy Cayne got clobbered as payback for LTCM.
Goldman’s level 3’s as a percentage of total assets has been a little lower than other banks like Lehman or Citi.
dedalus on September 24, 2008 at 2:43 PM
“Stop blaming the wrong crowd.”
csdeven
If you take a look at my post again you will see I blame both, Washington most of all.
My bottom line is we the people fell asleep on our watch and we are about to pay the price by losing our democracy. Our founders warned us to be ever vigilant and instead we have been vigilant alright…about paris Hilton’s next move or the latest murder trial on TV.
Who is asking us what we want? They are about to take 2-trillion $$$ of our future earnings and give it away not even knowing if it’s going to work! And yes, it WILL cost the high end estimates quoted if not exceed, it always does.
Goodeye_Closed on September 24, 2008 at 2:44 PM
I was telling McCain, to vote against it, (ON principal, since i believe 1/2 or 1/4 along with huge tax cuts and ALL in NOW with energy, could fix it and let the markets do its work)..
maybe he should vote for it, and give a big speech how the Democrats Forced him to do so, It’s NOT what he’s wanted to do, and he warned the Democrats 3 years ago to fix the problems but the Partisan Democrats blocked it along party lines so that they could gain power in 2006, to protect Fannie and Freddy.
maybe play this video.. to the press.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiEWCnpNnBQ
Chakra Hammer on September 24, 2008 at 2:44 PM
Engineered? Too Machiavelian…
Take advantage of a sitution? Horse of a different color.
Romeo13 on September 24, 2008 at 2:48 PM
In part they would be using the trillion dollars to acquire assets that are generating income. 95% of prime mortgages are being paid and about 82% of Alt A. The government could hold to maturity and make money or sell before maturity when the market becomes more liquid. They would be acquiring the properties at a discount with a borrowing cost that is about the cheapest anyone in the world could get.
Not a reason to do it by itself, but there is a chance that the government could make money directly from this transaction.
dedalus on September 24, 2008 at 2:55 PM
csdeven the rating agencies are third party such as Standard & Poors and Moodys. They do for securities what Morningstar does for mutual funds.
And by the time the dominos have finished falling over, there may not be a financial structure to invest new money into. If commercial paper fails, heaven help us.
—
Thanks for the links Irish, I am enjoying the read!
—
OK Patrick. I misunderstood. I thought you were one of those people who want 100% free markets. My sister is an auditor and she bemoans SOx to me all the time. I agree that it was a panacea that did nothing to prevent the type of scandals that prompted its creation.
How do you think we should address the rating issue Patrick? There is still some fundamental funk on these securities, even if theyre not forced to market.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 2:59 PM
No suggestion that Paulson engineered this mess. The cause of the mess (government intervention, greed, corruption) has already been well documented throughout the thread.
But to plausibly deny Henry has a conflict of interest in which market participants survive (Goldman) and which ones fail (Bear/Lehman) is blissful ignorance to his bailout motives.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 2:59 PM
I’d agree that when Paulson saw the flood waters reaching MS and GS he probably thought–gee, those guys aren’t irresponsible idiots like Dick Fuld. It must be a systemic problem.
dedalus on September 24, 2008 at 3:00 PM
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