Shelby, DeMint now oppose bailout
posted at 9:15 am on September 24, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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It may be time for the Bush administration to start looking for a Plan B. Two Republican Senators have now come out in opposition to the Paulson bail-out plan, and with Democrats like Chris Dodd allying themselves to the conservative rebellion in Congress, the White House has begun looking very isolated in its attempt to resolve the credit crisis. Richard Shelby and Jim DeMint have begun a conservative pushback to rescuing Wall Street from a situation that they claim is all Wall Street’s doing.
First, DeMint:
“There are much better ways of dealing with this problem than forcing American taxpayers to pay for every asset some investor doesn’t want anymore. We should start by reforming government policies and programs that created this mess, including the Federal Reserve’s easy money policy, the congressional charters of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and the Community Reinvestment Act. Then Congress should pass a number of permanent and proven pro-growth reforms to encourage capital formation and boost asset values. We need to make permanent reductions in the corporate tax and the capital gains tax rates. We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world, which encourages companies to take jobs and investment overseas.”
“It’s a sad fact, but Americans can no longer trust the economic information they are getting from this Administration. The Administration said the bailout of Bear Stearns would stop the bleeding and solve the problem, but they were wrong. They said $150 billion in new government spending using rebate checks would solve the problem, but they were wrong again. They said new authority to bailout Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac would solve the problem without being used, but they were wrong again. Now they want us to trust them to spend nearly a trillion dollars on more government bailouts. It’s completely irresponsible and I cannot support it.”
The Wall Street Journal profiles Shelby’s opposition:
With anger mounting from the left and right against the Treasury Department’s proposed financial bailout, one of the opponents’ most powerful allies is Alabama Sen. Richard Shelby, a Democrat-turned-Republican who espouses free-market principles with a populist streak.
Mr. Shelby, the ranking member of the Senate Banking Committee, said in an interview Tuesday that he is likely to vote against the proposal. “I’ve never supported a direct bailout,” Mr. Shelby said. “I voted against Chrysler when I was a freshman congressman. They said, ‘Well, Chrysler will fail.’ And well maybe if it’d failed then we wouldn’t have the problems facing us today.” …
“I think we’re going down the road of France now,” Mr. Shelby told one television interviewer Tuesday, before quickly adding, “in all due respect for my French friends.”
While I’m pleased that both Senators are standing up for conservative principles, and from DeMint this comes as no surprise, the fact is that this mess is not just of Wall Street’s making [see update below]. Right now, Congress is doing its level best to pretend it had nothing to do with this failure, and Chris Dodd — as the chair of the committee that was supposed to exercise oversight on this industry — is spinning the fastest. The more Congress can shove the blame entirely onto Wall Street, the better off it looks, but that’s simply not the case.
The heart of this failure came from a mandate by members of Congress from both parties that demanded easier loan terms for marginally-qualified buyers. At first, this meant working-class families, but it also resulted in easier terms all the way through to the highest income levels. Lower qualifiers meant more buyers, and buyers buying bigger houses. The net effect of this was to create a much higher demand for housing and for mortgages.
How did these get structured? The trouble came when people stopped providing solid down payments to ensure equity from the start of the loan. They got adjustable-rate mortgages for loans they couldn’t afford, betting that the quickly-rising price of housing would continue its trajectory and magically give them enough equity by the time the ARMs adjusted so that they could refinance their loans to something affordable. And for a few years, that’s exactly what happened — and so more and more people followed that example.
This produced two other effects. First, the government had Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac sponsor many of these questionable loans and convert them into investment products, which essentially infected the entire investment community with massive, poorly-secured loans. Second, the demand touched off a residential building boom as people attempted to provide inventory for the massive amount of buyers coming into the market.
Unfortunately, this created a big Ponzi scheme, one dictated by Congress and two administrations. It only worked as long as housing prices continued to increase. When the bubble finally popped late last year, it was analogous to the margin calls of 1929, only in slow motion. Once homeowners realized that their houses would not increase in value, they knew that they were stuck in ARMs that they wouldn’t be able to afford. The defaults would not just sink the banks but also the investors who bought the securities.
Who created this Ponzi scheme? Congress did. Who demanded lower qualifiers for home mortgages and then insisted on having Fannie/Freddie turn them into investments to support the lenders? Congress did. The lenders share the responsibility as well, but without Fannie/Freddie making their bad lending decisions profitable, they would never have jumped into the sub-prime market with the kind of enthusiasm they did. Now Congress wants to leave them holding the bag and all the blame — and that’s pretty convenient for Congress.
DeMint gets closer to the truth here than Shelby. Congress didn’t demand that Chrysler build K-cars and other lousy models and poor business practices that led to their bad performance, which is why Congress shouldn’t have had anything to do with the Chrysler bailout. That doesn’t apply here. DeMint, though, rightly points out that this is actually Bailout v4.0 in this crisis, and versions 1-3 didn’t solve the problem.
Taxpayers don’t want to be on the hook for the credit-market failure, but in the end, we’re responsible for Congress. Not many objected when home loans got so plentiful and our home equity skyrocketed over the last ten years. We need a responsible, market-based plan that undoes the damage our Congress created, and that means we’re going to have to shoulder some of the burden in the short term to make it happen. That’s our penalty for letting Congress run wild, and it should result in a lesson learned for the American taxpayer that, in Robert Heinlein’s words, there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. The plan should have accountability for those running it, and it should include a plan to completely dismantle the government’s reach into private lending markets permanently.
Update: I want to clarify something regarding Jim DeMint. He’s really been one of the best voices on this, and he agrees that government got us into this meltdown:
Sen. Jim DeMint, a South Carolina Republican, differed with Schumer, saying Congress should resist the Bush administration’s pleas for the legislation. He said, “The government broke it. I don’t trust them to fix it.”
DeMint isn’t passing the buck. He’s got the right diagnosis. Now we need Congress to fix what it broke, and to keep itself from breaking more in the future.
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Or better yet, repeal it altogether.
Typhoon on September 24, 2008 at 10:32 AM
Even better yet, let’s all poke our eyes out so we can’t see the truth! Yeah, that’s it!
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 10:33 AM
I hasten to add that if some very large private entity out there felt it could properly price these troubled assets and saw profit opportunities based on its current assessments, I’d be all for letting them buy up the assets and for their making a killing if they were right. The market’s wide open for that and I don’t see anyone stepping up to the plate to do it.
This is the government providing breathing room for an orderly disposition of these assets through reverse auctions, etc. If the deals are structured with warrants or call options, it’s possible the government could break even or make money.
Do I want more details? Yes. But let’s recognize that Dodd is inviting Republicans to put their own names on his disaster by delaying passage or by outright opposition.
DrSteve on September 24, 2008 at 10:34 AM
Money continues to flow into US Treasuries (the short term yields are close to 0%) and the dollar is stronger than it was a few months ago. The plan is likely to weaken the dollar, but if the credit markets stop functioning our economy will go through a sustained period with no economic growth.
dedalus on September 24, 2008 at 10:35 AM
As opposed to a sustained period of 25% inflation….
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 10:38 AM
No. It is the government stealing our money to buy its way out of a gargantuan clusterfuck. History stands witness to the merits of such efforts.
Throw the kill switch.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 10:38 AM
That’s actually an interesting analogy.
Wildfires often get out of control and burn everything in the path, becoming almost impossible to control or extinguish until nothing remains.
TheBigOldDog on September 24, 2008 at 10:39 AM
And healthy life blooms anew.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 10:41 AM
Which is much more probable when you toss a trillion gallons of gas on the fire.
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 10:41 AM
It will be interesting to see if all the politicians — left and right — coming out this week against the current bailout plan will hang tough on their position if the markets start to believe Congress won’t act, and the Dow goes into another 500-point-or-more plunge.
jon1979 on September 24, 2008 at 10:42 AM
Allowing an exception to Mark-to-Market, but requiring disclosure of the impact in footnotes is best.
Investors can know what a company is worth.
Companies with bad assests do not have to go bankrupt.
Companies that do not need this exception will announce this fact ASAP. Not announcing would be a red flag for a bad balance sheet.
The market could sort this out very fast, while retaining liquidity.
Democrats might complain that people make lots of capital gains from mergers, and that they lost some big corporate donors. I’m OK with that. :-)
Right_of_Attila on September 24, 2008 at 10:42 AM
That’s only after everything is destroyed and it takes decades and decades just to get back to where you started before the fire.
TheBigOldDog on September 24, 2008 at 10:42 AM
…and 85% unemployment.
I can pull figures out of my arse too.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 10:42 AM
Which is why you use water and sand.
TheBigOldDog on September 24, 2008 at 10:43 AM
This has never been true for either real or metaphorical wildfires.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 10:43 AM
Boy I’d love to place a big bet with you but fortunately, Washington knows exactly what it’s facing and will take action.
TheBigOldDog on September 24, 2008 at 10:44 AM
Y’all have no idea what you’re asking for when you want this to just go free market. Do you know that money market accounts almost went kaput last week? Do you understand what would do to economic growth in this nation?
This is not about investment banks any more. They make our economy go on every level. Inaction will produce an economic deadlock — we were 500 trades away from it last week until the gov’t stepped in.
If you oppose this on principle alone you’re foolish. I’m as laissez-faire as the next guy, but you have to see that socialist intervention caused this along with a great deal of stupidity on the part of congress, and unfortunately now the only way out is to reverse that action…which requires intervention.
The problem at this point isn’t defaults…its that nobody knows where those defaults are. The problem is transparency, and that’s what the Fed is trying to provide. They’re not bailing anyone out. It’s a total misnomer and shame on the media for letting the spin doctors get away with it!
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 10:45 AM
Tell that to the people of the 30s or the Japanese of the 90s.
TheBigOldDog on September 24, 2008 at 10:45 AM
How’s your Fruit Punch (emphasis on Fruit) this morning?
The problem isn’t a liquidity problem. It’s a confidence and trust issue, and this bailout does nothing to address the problem.
Any of these ideas is better than this bailout:
1. Temporarily reduce capital gains tax to 0%.
2. Temporarily reduce corporate income tax.
3. Place SOX on a temporary sabbatical … if Bernanke thinks we should buy crap paper at highly inflated values, just suspend the “mark to market” requirements and reduce reserve requirements.
4. Backstop the FDIC.
5. Drill here. Drill now. Start building nuclear power plants. (Use some of the 700 Billion in this initiative).
6. Fire Bernanke. Fire Paulson. Fire Cox. Replace them with any old “rodeo clown” as they haven’t a clue what they are doing.
Any of these ideas are better than the bailout in its current/future form.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 10:47 AM
If only somebody had told that to the respective governments of the 30s or 90s….
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 10:48 AM
You should take that one line on the comedy circuit ;)
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM
did you forget? You already did….
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM
By now, those who have bothered to educate themselves on the problem have a pretty good understanding of the cause and consequences to us all, so I would challenge that argument. The question is really this: Do we want to continue down this road, knowing full well it will repeat itself in some other form because D.C. decisions creating the problems are based on political and personal motives rather than welfare of the entire country? Do you really trust any of those involved in high pressure fear tactics designed to force an immediate decision?
a capella on September 24, 2008 at 10:50 AM
You do know the problem with Japan in the 90s (actually until today) was that the government failed to act right?
TheBigOldDog on September 24, 2008 at 10:52 AM
The problem is, legally many of the liquidity-providing institutions cannot keep non AAA rated loans on their balance sheets.
The mortgage backed securities were divvied up based on quality of loan into sections called tranches. Unfortunately, people then took the non AAA rated tranches (bad loans) and put them into CDOs which were then split into tranches — and the best of these tranches were then given AAA ratings! Like magic, the market managed to mark almost everything AAA. You can always divide and call the top 50% AAA, just in smaller and smaller pieces.
Now rating agencies are wising up the game and nobody knows what anything is worth any more. The fed is going to buy these unknown quantities, untie all the knots and resell them at transparent values, with legitimate ratings. That’s it. No “bailout”, just a way to essentially loan money until the true value of these assets can be reestablished.
Without transparency the market goes away. That’s why we have auditors and rules about publicly traded assets. If you don’t know how much something is worth how can you buy it? And if you and everyone else is trying to deleverage, and nobody wants to buy assets because they don’t know what they’re worth (if indeed they’re worth anything) how can you? It goes into gridlock and the whole system just kind of…seizes.
You don’t know what you’re asking for, you who want these banks to fail. Seriously!
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 10:52 AM
What is going on? Boehner didn’t look happy.
ctmom on September 24, 2008 at 10:52 AM
Quick! Look up and behind you! There goes my point!
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 10:52 AM
They passed and then modified the Community Reinvestment Act (1977 and 1994)
From Investor’s Business Daily:
http://www.ibdeditorial.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=307061229501695
Vashta.Nerada on September 24, 2008 at 10:53 AM
The mortgage asset values are already at distressed levels. They seem unlikely to get back to their 2005 levels, let alone increase in value to create inflationary pressures. If inflation is a risk I’m not sure what the mechanism is that gets it to the 25% level. I’d probably rather trade that risk rather than accept the risk of high levels of unemployment.
dedalus on September 24, 2008 at 10:53 AM
Well then, for all you supporters of “the plan”. Why don’t we just go whole hog on having the government set the values? Price a loaf of bread. Set the price of gasoline. Wage/price freeze. That always works well (except the supply dries up and you can’t get things at any price). The government is the last entity to be setting prices on these financial instruments. The market is. To do it any other way is to fundamentally change our form of government.
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 10:54 AM
IS, please outline the plan as you see it, because to my understanding the primary purpose of it is to provide transparency.
Please stop regurgitating Newt’s points. He’s playing politics like the rest of them instead of actually looking at the situation.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Failure on top of failure. Government failure.
By all means, continue your idolatry at the throne of the bastard god gubmint.
But please do it on your own dime.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 10:56 AM
The TOTAL mortgage market is $7.1 trillion. The credit default swaps (what they are REALLY bailing out) is $45 trillion. They were concerned about the $50 billion being inflationary…. I’m sure a cool trillion won’t fuel that fire at all…. no… none.
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 10:57 AM
The problem with the proposal “as is” per Bernanke’s own stupid words yesterday:
“Accounting rules require banks to value many assets at something close to a very low fire-sale price rather than the hold-to-maturity price,” Bernanke said in testimony to the Senate Banking Committee today. “If the Treasury bids for and then buys assets at a price close to the hold-to-maturity price, there will be substantial benefits.””
Bernanke is basically asking you, me, and every American to go into Wal-Mart and instead of paying 75 cents for a candy bar … saying to Wal-Mart, “Hey you made some bad bets and bad investments … let me help you out … we know in 30 years with inflation that your candy bar will be $5.00 so tell you what … I’ll give you $5.00 for a future value 30 years off.”
A total lose-lose for the taxpayer and the cost of this bailout is going to be much, much higher than $700 Billion when the low estimates of the CDS markets is on the order of $62 TRILLION dollars.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 10:57 AM
CC the government isn’t making the values. The government is buying the securities at face value (stated value, not fire-sale prices) and unscrewing the currently inscrutable tranches. They will then sell them back at market value.
It’s not a bailout…it’s closer to the government acting as a pawn shop than anything else. And the thing is, in the pure form of the plan (pre-democrat social engineering) Wall Street establishments stand to lose a great deal of cash.
Educate yourself and quit being stubborn on your “ideals”. Cutting off your nose to spite your face only makes you…noseless.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Abso-bloody-lutely
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 10:59 AM
Most of those points Newt pawned from other market players. Newt is late to the game … many smart folks have been barking these talking points for over 12 months …
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 10:59 AM
About 6 months into a depression and soup lines I bet you’d be the first screaming that the Government didn’t do enough to prevent Armageddon.
TheBigOldDog on September 24, 2008 at 10:59 AM
Educate myself? Okay. The people holding these instruments very probably have a very good idea of their value. Those holding worthless crap will be at the front of the line to sell to Uncle Sugar. Those holding items that they believe actually have value will hold back. Where that leaves us is buying junk. Let the market sort it out.
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 11:00 AM
Try 14 trillion. Where are you getting that the Gov is buying CDSs? They are buying MBS and CDOs.
TheBigOldDog on September 24, 2008 at 11:02 AM
The only way the banks lose money is if the government buys the bad paper at market rates … and some of the paper being sold wouldn’t fetch 10 cents on the dollar on the private markets or private investors would be all over it …
Bernanke overplayed the Feds hand yesterday by suggesting that we buy the crap paper at mark-to-maturity rates. Sorry, Ben … no sale.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Only if we keep the status quo. Changing the scum who propogated is the way to fix it. This bailout rewards them for their scam.
The free market WILL replace those who used to loan money and money WILL be available for small businesses etc.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 11:03 AM
Irish your example is kind of dumb because candy bars don’t appreciate. Houses do.
Read this:
The fed is adding transparency. We are nowhere near to 72% defaults at 50% severity. Not even close.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 11:03 AM
You’d lose that bet.
You also wouldn’t see me in a soup line.
You’ll see me shooting the losers trying to steal the fruits of my labor. The same losers that think gubmint should have prevented armageddon.
You’re welcome to come over to my place for a bowl of soup. Bring something to barter.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 11:04 AM
The solution is not to give loans to people who cannot qualify. Isn’t that the reason we are in this mess to begin with?
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Sorry… 2007 numbers from here:
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1723152,00.html
The $45T is the total CDS leverage from the total debt… did you miss the part where Paulson wants basically all debt?
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 11:06 AM
The government backstop would reduce the number of credit default swaps being triggered, which could reach a cascading level with no action.
CDS’s need to be better regulated and should probably be exchange traded.
dedalus on September 24, 2008 at 11:06 AM
The reason they don’t fetch 10 cents is because…there’s no transparency! Even defaulted mortgages are backed with equity — the house itself. The problem isn’t “real”. It’s perception.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 11:06 AM
It’s not inflation that we need to worry about…it’s DEFLATION that we need to really be worried about!
SaintOlaf on September 24, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Well well well….could it really be that simple? ;)
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 11:08 AM
That’s the problem. THERE IS NO MARKET. The assets are illiquid. It’s like telling you you have 15 minutes to sell your home. If the best you can get is $10K does that mean that’s all your home is worth? Does that mean that’s all your neighbor’s similar home is worth? Of coarse not. The problem is illiquid assets and who can afford to hold them to maturity without crashing the economy.
Yes, but that ship has sailed. That’s over and done with. Right now, people with great credit can’t even get a loan becuase there is no cash to lend. Businesses can’t raise cash for Working cap. That’s the whole point. The system has ground to a halt. Banks wont even lend to other banks for a day. FOR A DAY. That’s why LIBOR is rising and T-Bills are falling.
TheBigOldDog on September 24, 2008 at 11:08 AM
Heh. Evidently you didn’t pass Macroeconomics 101.
All item appreciation is a factor of inflation and monetary policy…
/Advanced Degree in Economics/Math so I might know a thing or two about these matters.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 11:08 AM
No it isn’t. And if you think it is you really don’t have a good grasp on what’s happening and what the consequences will be if it doesn’t get fixed very soon.
TheBigOldDog on September 24, 2008 at 11:09 AM
BigOldDog, I’m done with this I think. The level of financial knowledge on the average person is too low. People without understanding of commercial paper and what it does for our economy will not appreciate this situation.
For everyone else. I am a financial conservative. I hate government intervention. I think CRA and other social engineering efforts were stupid. This problem is caused by the government, through intentional socialistic efforts and corruption. However, I don’t want to live through the depression my grandpa did. Seriously.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 11:11 AM
Another thing to consider is the next president will appoint a new Treasury Secretary.
God knows who Obama will appoint and the best McCain will do is someone along the lines of Andrew Cuomo.
Kill this monster now!
Valiant on September 24, 2008 at 11:11 AM
I think this might be the first time we’ve ever agreed.
phronesis on September 24, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Thanks for making my point for me.
The problem is that we’ve emulated the real estate disaster of 1990’s Japan in several select markets (see California, Florida, Arizona, etc.) and the dislocation of real estate values from real wages is resulting in defaults which is the actual cause of the banking/credit crisis.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 11:12 AM
I am self employed and have been for 20+ years. I fear extreme inflation more than recession and deflation.
It will be what it will be. They will pass it (or something similar) or they won’t. which ever way it goes will be bad. Either side will be able to argue their way would have been better. Given that, I choose to stick with principles that do not move towards socialism.
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 11:13 AM
McCain might have been talking about the SEC. Cuomo doesn’t have the resume for Treasury. McCain or Obama will need a heavyweight–even Clinton had Robert Rubin.
dedalus on September 24, 2008 at 11:14 AM
IS, I didn’t take macro 101. I’m an engineer with a lot of interest in finance. I saw this coming up in the news so I’ve spent the past six months boning up. But what I see is a lot of people playing politics in a time which appears to me to be fairly critical.
And, to my understanding, item appreciation is a function of scarcity — because things appreciate irrespective to monetary policies (like, when they’re valued in gold).
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 11:14 AM
We do agree on this.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 11:15 AM
The problem is it will not replace fast enough.
This is a different economy. An instant one.
If lending comes to a screeching halt for even a short period of time, it is enough to start a death spiral so big that we will never dig our way out.
I don’t understand why some of you here are not taking this seriously and actually think trying to start from scratch and “dig our way out” is even a plausible option!
If businesses do not have access to credit lines they will immediately lay off the majority of their employees or go out of business.
We really could see a 60% unemployment rate in no time.
Compare that to the 25% unemployment rate of the great depression to get some perspective..
SaintOlaf on September 24, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Yes it is. And if you think it isn’t you really don’t have a good grasp on what’s happening and what the consequences will be if gubmint attempts to ‘fix’ it.
Copy’n'paste debate is fun.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Couldn’t agree more and our philosophies align as well. I spent a lot of time and money learning what I know and today, ignorance would be close to bliss.
TheBigOldDog on September 24, 2008 at 11:16 AM
We’re in agreement. How do you get out without unwinding the rating system so we can actually figure out what’s what? And how do you do that without a third party with the power to reevaluate / rate these securities?
And, more importantly, how do you “fix” (not fix as in make permanent but fix as repair) these prices in a few weeks, to keep these banks from grinding to a halt in the meantime? The democrats haven’t left us with much time to keep things going. We’re on generator power here, really.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Comparing your nightmarish fantasies really isn’t an intelligent use of time.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Yes, McCain wants Cuomo in as head of the SEC. He is horribly unqualified for that job, too.
I am just saying Congress is trying to rush a bad plan through like they did when they formed the TSA. The next Treasury Secretary would have unprecedented powers and we don’t have a clue who it will be.
Valiant on September 24, 2008 at 11:18 AM
You must be very happy.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Part of any bailout should also be that Raines, Johnson and Gorelick return the money the
stoleearned from their time at Fannie/Freddie.PattyJ on September 24, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Did you “wipe that number off” before posting it?
Credit: I’m in the process of helping my daughter buy a house here in southwest Florida. I am dealing with a bank and they said money is no problem. They have money… at a good rate too. They haven’t been involved in sub-prime. They have, in their words, plenty of money to lend. If you have good credit, you can get money.
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 11:19 AM
In a FIAT monetary system, that isn’t how it works. Scarcity (supply/demand) is a factor, but monetary policy (interest rates, wage demands of labor, etc.) have a greater impact on inflation than supply/demand.
Wasn’t trying to slam on you with the “failing Macroecomonics” comment, but the financial/economic knowledge gap in this country is staggering. Great to hear you’re reading up. But, if you think the bailout isn’t playing politics by everyone involved, you might need to read some more diverse opinions.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 11:19 AM
The “let it burn” people are giving me visions Charleton Heston at the end of planet of the apes.
phronesis on September 24, 2008 at 11:19 AM
Face value on any of that paper is a farce. For their insolence they should be lucky to get 50-60 cents on the dollar… but I digress
As far as the suggestion to take LT Capital Gains tax rate to zero is a BAD idea (as much as I would LOVE to have it) for one reason that comes off the top of my head:
Floating Rate Notes…
Most people that have done 1042 exchanges, tend to invest their Qualified Replacement Property (QRP) in those type of notes. They borrow against the investments in those notes and the sum cost of that operation is roughly 10% based on LIBOR. To drop it below 10% makes the incentive to pull out of those long term securities = less liquidity. Maybe drop it below 10% after you set the liquidity problem straight, then do it to an incentive for business to do long term appreciation and growth.
SkinnerVic on September 24, 2008 at 11:20 AM
I get that. But giving money to the same scum who created this is not the answer. What they could do is give you (You personally)$250,000 and you can then loan that money at a profit to those businesses.
10,000 small lenders would replace the idiots that put us into this situation.
That could be just one compromise that would work. But remember, there are lots of people who have the money to put into the system if only the government would get out of the middle of this and let the free market fill the void. They don’t now because a portion our politicians are in the pocket of previously mentioned scumbags.
csdeven on September 24, 2008 at 11:21 AM
I’m sure he is. However, he is a lousy economist. And history will probably say, a horrible President.
Just my opinion.
stenwin77 on September 24, 2008 at 11:21 AM
The “gubmint fixit” people are giving me visions of the keystone cops.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 11:22 AM
CC, small loans are no biggy. If you want $3MM for a small-ish business, you’re probably ok. If you need $300MM you’re pretty much SOL.
Unfortunately, big companies are the backbone of our economy. Exxon or BP don’t go to Wells Fargo to ask for a loan to build a refinery. Citi doesn’t borrow from Chase to cover their 30 day operating costs on credit cards. It’s all commercial paper.
But if that fails, the economy fails. Last week we were close, but it whiffed by and apparently nobody noticed.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 11:23 AM
And small business is, by a very very very wide margin, the largest employer in the country.
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 11:26 AM
With all due respect you are not a free market thinker. Like I said before you think there is a small cabal of people that can, on the drop of a hat fashion a multi trillion dollar solution to a problem they created in the first place. Yikes.
But putting that aside, your bailout alias is “transparency” or the lack thereof. The market has already ascribed a value to all that paper–pennies on the dollar caused by forced selling. That valuation was reached last Wednesday and Thursday. That’s why the markets froze up. With leverage and mark to market constraints, as previously noted, as little as 5% of a balance sheet effectively made many banks etc insolvent where previous bookkeeping did just the opposite.
By simply changing this rule banks would be able to let time and maturity ascertain the real value of said paper–true default rates rather than extrapolated–no margin call selling so to speak. Then at their own choosing they can eat the loss, hold it to maturity or sell it at a slightly greater loss for liquidity purposes.
You are naive at best if you even remotely think that the Treasury and Fed can handle the millions of transactions that will ultimately be involved to settle these affairs. They are not buying time they are buying at top dollar currently worthless paper to make the problem go away. It will then be given away at pennies on the dollar to get it off the books within a few years. The cost will then be buried on the national debt pile. Smiles all around as they supposedly prevented your threatened depression.
What the market needs is for this stuff to sit on the desks of the people that own it, stinking all the while, reminding them of their bad trade. In time, 5-30 years as the mortgage heap matures they will be made 90% whole on their investment. What they will have lost is 5-30 years of opportunity that they could have had hadn’t they bought into a bubble.
It will be a very important lesson expensively learned. Paulson, with his cronies at Goldman Sach’s is trying to prevent that. It will be his firm that will be buying that paper at pennies on the dollar in a few years. They will probably set up a shell company and then they will start breaking it up into tranches and selling the interest component on one hand and the principle component on the other akin to Zero’s which you might have right now in your IRA. Buffet is no dummy.
No thanks…..
patrick neid on September 24, 2008 at 11:26 AM
The congress should parse the plan and execute on an emergency basis the parts of the plan that will get us through the next couple of weeks. They’ve talked about $150B to start, and neither Paulson nor Bernanke have been able to say why $150B wouldn’t work but $700B would. Even if the $700B were granted immediately with no strings, Treasury couldn’t spend all that quickly.
The congress needs make sure the market is structurally sound while letting individual companies fail.
dedalus on September 24, 2008 at 11:26 AM
Spot on.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 11:32 AM
Everytime DeMint speaks, it’s just pure gold. I really wish this man led the Senate Republicans. McConnell’s an okay guy, but DeMint is conservative to the bone.
Jim-Rose on September 24, 2008 at 11:32 AM
I wish that were true; I don’t think it is. In fact I think that’s part of the problem. As a professional economist it’s something I’m spending a lot of time thinking about lately.
Nope. “Item appreciation” sounds to me like it involves relative prices. Remember Microeconomics 101? You’re thinking “inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon,” which is what Friedman & Schwartz wrote, and which is almost certainly correct.
DrSteve on September 24, 2008 at 11:36 AM
This crisis was caused by runaway social engineering….and any further social engineering is unlikely to make things better.
cthulhu on September 24, 2008 at 11:37 AM
I hasten to add monetary policy can screw up relative prices, which is a big part of what Austrian Cycle Theory is about…
DrSteve on September 24, 2008 at 11:38 AM
REally interesting part to me?
Fannie and Freddie are reported to already hold about 70% of the bad motgage loans… and have been essentialy seized by the Fed…
So, why do we need ANOTHER 10% of the entire Mortgage market to bail out bad debt?
There is definatly somthing going on here they are not telling us about, and my guess is its about the 45 Trillion in CDS coverage which is NOT been regulated… the acts of the Government is going to dictate winners and loosers in that market, as the Government will then be deciding which properties fail… My guess is that some big institutions BET in this Vegas about Debt, that there would be a lot of failures, and will take HUGE loses if they don’t.
Romeo13 on September 24, 2008 at 11:39 AM
No big dog that’s not what happened. That’s what Greenspan told you what happened. What happened, the Japanese will readily agree now, is that the real estate bubble was so big, so entrenched that nothing could be done.
How big? At its peak Tokyo was valued more than the entire state of California, which at the time was the world’s sixth largest economy. The Japanese were in the process of committing real estate hari kari without knowing it. Real estate prices have now dropped upwards of 70%.
What they found and we will find out is that by preventing the marketplace from cleansing itself we to will suffer the lost decades that the Japanese are still putting up with. They tried everything possible for 10 years, all in a vain attempt to prevent banks from taking their loses.
Doing absolutely nothing would have been the solution. Yes the stock market would have dropped 85%, as it did, but the market would have immediately started to recover within a few years.
patrick neid on September 24, 2008 at 11:45 AM
The market value of pennies on the dollar isn’t real, it’s due to deleveraging (in some cases, forced) and marked-to-market pricing. So on the one hand you say that they’re worthless because the market says so, and on the other you say its because of accounting laws.
We’re at, what, 5% defaults right now? Those assets have real value, but the market can’t price them. There’s no transparency. The problem is that the 5% defaults aren’t just in the crummy tranches, theyre all over the place because of the way the CDOs and MBSs were sliced up. No one knows, so no one buys. How do you fix this without re-rating the securities?
I am a free market thinker but when I see that the government has bound the market hand and foot, I say the government has to cut them out. At this point it does not appear, to me, that the market in its present incarnation can take the anchor off of it’s neck, thanks to socialist intervention. I believe firmly that all major financial problems are caused by government meddling, like trying to ensure everyone has a house or trying to iron the ups and downs of the business cycle out.
It’s the lesser of two evils…pay for it now, in inflation caused by increased government spending, or pay for it later in a potential depression.
Again, I’m totally open to suggestions but on here people are saying “No Thanks” without telling me how they’d fix it in a few weeks or less — which appears to be all the time we have. Allowing the banks to keep these assets on their books (removing S-Ox or FASB 157) doesn’t fix the problem, it just keeps it from blowing up right now. They still have to deleverage at some point, and when they do, the market still won’t know how to value those assets. (And deleveraging will still cause asset price deflation).
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 11:48 AM
Agreed. Not a professional economist (have an MBA and BS in Economics/Math) … run my own small company …
That said, I agree that “item appreciation” has a social component that can be unwound from monetary policy/inflation, but my example (going into Wal-Mart and paying a premium for products) per Ben Bernanke’s suggestion that we pay a 30-year forward premium for bad paper was a valid one …
The appreciation of home prices has nothing to do with supply/demand at this point as supply has greatly outstripped demand for well over the last 10 years … Home appreciation was more a factor of easy money (see Greenspan/Bernanke), herd mentality, and government intervention … not supply and demand.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 11:50 AM
In some markets, IS. Prices also have to do with a lot of other finicky things, like people against urban sprawl driving up building licenses and making it difficult. The demand for housing is real, and the difficulties erected in the builder’s way were real too – all contributed.
New home sales are down but they’re not gone. By all accounts we’re still growing (with the exception of localized super-bubbles), just not at the frenzied pace we were before. Now you’re in an area I have pretty good grounding on.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Bailout:
“purchase by the Treasury of up to $700 billion in MBS and related assets”
Bernanke:
the purchases are to take place at “a price close to the hold-to-maturity price.”
Ah.. that would be a price FAR above the “market value”. Bailout.
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 11:56 AM
Thanks for the explanation. So, Buffet bet on the come, right? If the bailout occurs, he profits by taxpayer sourced cheap additions to the GS inventory; if it doesn’t occur that cheap paper remains with those who made the original business decision?
a capella on September 24, 2008 at 11:58 AM
As the lender of last resort, the FED should temporarily open the discount window to all corporations … not just lending institutions. Keep the production economy afloat … let the shadow banking institutions fail and backstop retirement accounts with FDIC guarantee to $100K. Every American gets a financial haircut … 30%, 40%, 50%, totally proportional to every American, almost a monetary reset …
Every American individual and corporation has to tighten their budget and get back to fiscal conservatism.
Not ideal, but it is better than this bailout.
IrishSamurai on September 24, 2008 at 11:58 AM
CC, Market value is a farce right now because everything is marked to the last sale. This is the crux of the whole problem: what value is right? Don’t be so quick to be smug.
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 11:59 AM
Exactly my point. Bernanke said in the hearings yesterday that it is their intent to purchase are to take place at “a price close to the hold-to-maturity price.”
Ah, that would be full price… no discount…. no market determination.
Holders get made whole. We pay for it. Bailout.
CC
CapedConservative on September 24, 2008 at 12:02 PM
It is worth mentioning that when the SEC redid the financial rules in 2003 they allowed five firms to leverage far beyond the typical 12%. Care to guess which five they were? Three of them no longer exist. The other two no longer exist as solely investment banks, either.
And IrishSamurai, I’m not being stubborn — your idea is intriguing. But if the Fed can’t handle the transactions to rerate MBSs and CDOs, how can they effectively sift through and approve loans to the entire economy through the discount window? We have a whole industry that meets that market right now. Wouldn’t that be nationalization of banking on an even broader scale?
Not to mention the fact that at the end of the day, we still don’t know which security is which, so do you just have to hold them to maturity? How would you audit or look at the balance sheets of banks with large holdings of such securities?
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 12:04 PM
It seems you have a peculiar understanding of what, precisely, a value is.
Nothing ever has a value at any point in time. ‘Values’ are always subjective – something has a value to me, to you – and even though valuations may become more orderly, over the short-term at least, due to the jostle of the marketplace, it in no way repudiates the essential subjectivity of any particular value. When we aggregate this over such a vast economy, we rather abstractly talk about ‘market value’, but there really is no such fixed thing. It’s a mirage. Attempting to reach that mirage will kill an economy just as effectively as a thirsty man in the desert.
The very concept of ‘market value’ is the farce.
LimeyGeek on September 24, 2008 at 12:07 PM
CC for most securities the hold to maturity price is correct. For a whole MBS, all subsidiary tranches, the whole thing would have to default at something like 20% with 50% severity before the you’re down to 70 cents on the dollar. We’re nowhere close to that.
Its the bottom 8% of the MBS that are the big question marks…but the problem is no one knows just where they are. Its not that the whole industry is worthless, its that no one knows which securities are hollow.
It’s like trying to buy stocks without know P/E ratios or earnings. The market as a whole may go up but individual stocks may be worthless — would you buy under that scenario?
k2aggie07 on September 24, 2008 at 12:07 PM
All of this has my bearded-freak-in-the-cabin-with-”supplies” side in full overdrive. I just can’t help but wonder if this isn’t a play on our private banking system to further centralize it. Allow the dollar to tank, there’s the stick, provide a new, more stable currency standard to replace it, there’s the carrot.
Meh, do the bailout, continue the Ponzi scheme. I know too many folks that will lose their whole lives’ reward in one fell swoop if this house of cards comes down. Cut the damn corporate tax rates, stop incentivizing blatantly risky behavior (forcing it, really), free up the free market, allow it to work.
Fscking drill, drill, drill. Drop the regulatory brick walls standing in the way of building nuclear power plants. Let’s get Americans back to work being what Americans do best, innovate.
spmat on September 24, 2008 at 12:09 PM
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