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NHS or the American medical system? A testimony

posted at 6:20 pm on September 23, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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With health care a perennial election issue, Americans need to decide whether to take a more free-market approach or move towards a government-run system.  Perhaps a testimonial by F. Brinley Bruton might assist in that choice.  Bruton has the unique perspective of having to use both American and British systems to treat the same serious illness — and the experiences couldn’t be more different, although Bruton’s choice may surprise some readers:

A few weeks ago I found myself curled up in a hospital here in London, my feverish body shaking violently back and forth. The pain in my side and back made it hard to straighten my torso, and I’d thrown up in a friend’s car on the way to the hospital.

The hospital couldn’t find an extra hospital bed, so I spent my first night hooked up to an IV on a gurney in the middle of a row of men and women, my sweaty skin sticking to the plastic. A shriveled woman in the bed to my right issued loud and largely unintelligible commands to nobody in particular. A steady flow of patients visited the bathroom right in front of my bed. A shouting match broke out between some of the nurses and nurses aides until a man at the other end of the room yelled, “Could you please take it outside? I’m trying to rest.”

Sometime in the midst of this I was diagnosed with pyelonephritis, a severe urinary tract infection that had spread to a kidney, and ended up in the hospital for three nights. I had already been on two courses of antibiotics, but that hadn’t cleared up the initial infection. Finding myself sick and alone thousands of miles away from my mom was bad enough, but scarier still was just how familiar the illness felt.

I’d been sick with the same thing almost 10 years ago when I was in my 20s and still living in the United States, where I’m from. In both cases, my side and back hurt and fever shot up. And each time, I recovered after serious doses of antibiotics and lots of bed rest. But apart from that, my experiences were a world apart.

This is a lengthy read, but worthwhile.  It talks honestly about the benefits and drawbacks of both systems, and gives readers a choice of nightmares.  Would you rather have the most attentive and consistent of care and get forced into bankruptcy, or would you rather have more efficiency, less cost — and get ignored or worse while fighting to get attention?

The choice isn’t as easy as it seems, in part because Bruton seems to miss the common thread of the probems in both systems.  Both systems hide the true cost of the care from the consumer, only in Britain that’s done a little more transparently than in America.  Bruton received top-flight care but ran afoul of her insurance, a situation which we’ve repeatedly experienced ourselves.  In the end, she wound up paying thousands of dollars for care that should have been covered by insurance, mostly because she waited far too long to seek attention.

In Britain, the cost comes right off the top of her salary, but that’s only the basic cost.  Bruton had to negotiate for attention every step of the way through her treatment, essentially competing for severely rationed treatment with other consumers.  Bruton succeeded, and she feels relatively sanguine about the results, but the anecdotes should horrify the rest of us.  Thanks to a lack of competition, Bruton also admits that she’s fortunate enough to have a competent provider in her neighborhood — which many of her co-consumers do not have.

In both situations, the common problem is a centralized payment system that disconnects consumers from the cost of medical care and eliminates competition.  What’s truly needed is a shift away from comprehensive insurance care to a combination of catastrophic coverage partnered with tax-free HSAs that would allow people to choose from truly competing providers for what’s known as primary care.  That would lower costs for most of the medical treatment Americans receive as clinics would have to compete for business — much the same as non-covered treatments such as breast augmentation and Lasik clinics do, for instance — while containing costs for the rarer hospitalizations and lengthier treatment regimens through group insurance plans.

We need more free market in this system, not less.  If we want to make health care delivery more efficient and less costly, competition and exposing true costs are the most effective methods for any market to reach efficiency.


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I hear that it isn’t much better in Canada, eh Rywall?

ManlyRash on September 23, 2008 at 6:26 PM

Very few people who have lived under both systems would chose the “NHS / British” model. Canadians are a fluke, because nearly 90 % of them live within 50 miles ( a hour or so drive ) from the USA–so they can’ sidestep’ the long waiting lines and lack of MRIs, etc

Janos Hunyadi on September 23, 2008 at 6:29 PM

NHS or BHS will be the American medical system?

Fixed that for you…

BHS = Barack Health System

RocketmanBob on September 23, 2008 at 6:30 PM

Bully! Bully! We all need catastrophic insurance, but should pay for routine expenses out of pocket. That would prevent a lot of the abuses. My mother-in-law reads an article in a magazine and makes an appointment with her doctor to discuss the article. He is more than happy to then bill Medicare for a consultation and she had a chance to dress up and go out into the community. It ticks me off to no end.

bopbottle on September 23, 2008 at 6:31 PM

Our system is no where near free market enough either. We need to work to free the market not restrict it more. For example, why do I need to see a dentist to get my teeth cleaned? The specialist does all the work, the dentist is there only for bad problems. I’d rather just pay less and see the specialist and have them refer me to a dentist if I need to.

libertytexan on September 23, 2008 at 6:31 PM

It still boggles my mind that anyone would prefer the socialistic option.

*eats*

Grue in the Attic on September 23, 2008 at 6:32 PM

So glad I live in America. Yeah, my family has the quasi-socialized military health care system, but we have a choice. Choice is a good thing.

Anna on September 23, 2008 at 6:33 PM

I’d like to see the same type of article written by someone with a more prolonged illness, such as a cancer patient. When you have a relatively minor illness, like a kidney infection, you might be willing to overlook a lack of attention for the tradeoff of saving a few bucks. But if you’re fighting cancer for a long period of time, that constant “begging for attention” would play a huge role in your recovery. At that point, the patient would be praying for the US healthcare.

CookeyD on September 23, 2008 at 6:33 PM

We all need catastrophic insurance, but should pay for routine expenses out of pocket.

This is very true. Paying insurance for regular check ups is wasteful. The point of insurance is to transfer money from times when you have plenty of money (normally) to when money is tight (disaster situations). If its a regular check up this does not occur.

libertytexan on September 23, 2008 at 6:33 PM

Our system is no where near free market enough either.

Sure isn’t.

Why is the fix to government created problems -always- even more government?

Why don’t they ever look at, you know, less interference?

lorien1973 on September 23, 2008 at 6:34 PM

I’m a two-time breast cancer survivor and frequent several international breast cancer support forums where other survivors post their stories. I have read many firsthand accounts of delays in Britain and Canada that have worsened the prognoses and even claimed the lives of fellow survivors.

Patients like me who are kept alive with the latest advances drive up the costs of health insurance. In countries where medicine is socialized, they rarely have access to the newest diagnostic tools and most effective treatments, which ironically should keep their costs lower.

In the olden days when doctors made house calls, a woman in my situation would have been sent home to settle her personal affairs. Naturally, health care was more affordable back then. Sadly, that’s not too far from the current reality of socialized medicine.

Terrie on September 23, 2008 at 6:36 PM

I like McCain’s plan, but I think he should change it so that it’s tax credits for those of working age and rebates for children… we also need active lifestyle tax credit for things like gym membership and exercise equipment…

A Plan to Replace the Welfare State
The government should give every American $10,000–and nothing more.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008142

Throughout history until a few decades ago, the meaning of life for almost everyone was linked to the challenge of simple survival. Staying alive required being a contributing part of a community. Staying alive required forming a family and having children to care for you in your old age. The knowledge that sudden death could happen at any moment required attention to spiritual issues. Doing all those things provided deep satisfactions that went beyond survival.

Life in an age of plenty and security requires none of those things. For the great majority of people living in advanced societies, it is easily possible to go through life accompanied by social companions and serial sex partners, having a good time, and dying in old age with no reason to think that one has done anything significant.

If you believe that’s all there is–that the purpose of life is to while away the time as pleasantly as possible–then it is reasonable to think that the purpose of government should be to enable people to do so with as little effort as possible. But if you agree with me that to live a human life can have transcendental meaning, then we need to think about how human existence acquires weight and consequence.

For many readers of The Wall Street Journal, the focus of that search for meaning is bound up with vocation–for some, the quest to be rich and famous; for others, the quest to excel in a vocation one loves. But it is an option open to only to a lucky minority. For most people–including many older people who in their youths focused on vocation–life acquires meaning through the stuff of life: the elemental events associated with birth, death, growing up, raising children, paying the rent, dealing with adversity, comforting the bereaved, celebrating success, applauding the good and condemning the bad; coping with life as it exists around us in all its richness. The chief defect of the welfare state from this perspective is not that it is ineffectual in making good on its promises (though it is), nor even that it often exacerbates the very problems it is supposed to solve (though it does). The welfare state is pernicious ultimately because it drains too much of the life from life.

Simply put, the Plan gives us back the action. Institutions and individuals alike thrive to the extent that they have important jobs to do and know that the responsibility to do them is on their heads. For decades, the welfare state has said to us, “We’ll take care of that.” As a result, we have watched some of our sources of life’s most important satisfactions lose vitality. At the same time, we have learned how incompetent–how helpless–government is when “taking care of that” means dealing with complex human needs. The solution is not to tinker with the welfare state. The solution is to put responsibility for our lives back in our hands–ours as individuals, ours as families, and ours as communities.

Conservatives are going to have to learn to love income redistribution to get people in the “game” if the alternative is top down government…

ninjapirate on September 23, 2008 at 6:37 PM

In the end, she wound up paying thousands of dollars for care that should have been covered by insurance, mostly because she waited far too long to seek attention.

So, in the US, the system penalizes you for waiting too long to get care while in the UK, waiting too long to get care is the system.

Kafir on September 23, 2008 at 6:37 PM

I trust nothing reported by the media. This has all the classic signs of a setup … propagandizing for socialized medicine by way of a supposedly objective, sympathetic person.

The supposed “mix-up” that caused this person financial hardship seems suspect as well. She relied on her family to pay the costs? Why didn’t the family talk with the insurance company? There was nothing unusual about her case or the cost to warrant tap dancing by the insurance company she had been faithfully paying premiums to.

Nah … don’t buy it, especially since it’s from MSNBC.

darwin on September 23, 2008 at 6:39 PM

My husband and I were self-employed for a time and purchased our own catastrophic health insurance. It was expensive, high deductible, but we were covered in case of a major medical situation.

You have to budget. That means if you have to cut out some lattes or cell phone minutes or eat romaine instead of arugula, so be it.

People just need to learn to prioritize spending.

I ended up having back surgery and I am so thankful I had excellent care and did not end up bankrupt because of it. Socialized medicine scares the beejesuz out of me.

tru2tx on September 23, 2008 at 6:40 PM

I, unfortunately, deal with the hiding of true costs every day. Folks can’t grasp that medical insurance should be there for disasters, not every day bumps and bruises. I explain to people that they would never file claims on their auto/home insurance for regular maintenance, because their rates would go up. The American consumer has a different expectation of health insurance, then can’t understand why rates continue to increase.

soonerrph on September 23, 2008 at 6:43 PM

I am an American who lives in the UK (7 years now). My experience with the NHS has been uniformly positive. I know it is not perfect, but let me tell you it’s pretty nice visiting the doctor for routine stuff and not having a staggering bill to pay for that 5 minutes you saw him/her to get some antibiotics.

As for non-routine … my son was born with “duodenal atresia.” Google that if you want to know what it is. His care was absolutely fantastic from the very beginning. He’s OK now thanks to several surgeries that would have bankrupted us in the States – just the deductibles alone.

Meanwhile a visit to family last Christmas in America resulted in a hospital stay for my son due to bronchitis. We are left with a $30000 bill to pay which our *private* travel insurance company here in the UK has declined. They basically are seeing whether we are willing to take legal action. Lovely.

I thank God for the NHS. No it is not perfect and there are horror stories, but if you think the US healthcare system is the best model, I beg to differ. I shudder to think what our lives would be like having to pay deductibles constantly and fight for insurance coverage for my son’s therapies. This is one issue where I depart from mainline conservative thought. Socialized medicine in the USA would not be the end of the world.

zmrzlina on September 23, 2008 at 6:50 PM

Off Topic:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080923/ap_on_go_co/offshore_drilling

Have Democrats given up on their sham offshore drilling, and are simply going to let the ban pass?

Enoxo on September 23, 2008 at 6:50 PM

ninjapirate on September 23, 2008 at 6:37 PM

Excellent article. Thanks a million.

*eats*

Grue in the Attic on September 23, 2008 at 6:51 PM

So glad I live in America. Yeah, my family has the quasi-socialized military health care system, but we have a choice. Choice is a good thing.

Anna on September 23, 2008 at 6:33 PM

CHOICE? I don’t have a CHOICE to opt OUT of the CRAPPY MILITARY MEDICAL SYSTEM, Anna, dear!!!

They trade me substandard healthcare then appropriate my husband’s pay and I HAVE NOOOOooo CHOICE in that matter.

NO THANK YOU, Anna. I CHOOOOOSE cash, but they don’t pay the husband enough to cover it. And yes, he has been in almost twenty years and it is not the same (less) raw deal than it was back then.

TRICARE SUCKS ON ICE.

TRICARE PRIME, STANDARD or “EXTRA” ALL suck on ice.

If America wants to see how ***Wonderful*** socialized medicine is, just join the military and get your pay stolen for a bag of SCHLOCK.

Everywhere I try to get to take it treats me like I am trying to pass Confederate money. So I just pay cash.

CASH is my “choice”.

seejanemom on September 23, 2008 at 6:54 PM

you know, regardless of the politics…its disgusting that people in this country go without care.

imagine needing a CAT scan after a seizure…first one of your life…and having to pay $4,000…to then find out you have brain cancer and then the real wallet problems begin.

ernesto on September 23, 2008 at 6:56 PM

The question seems to be, do you want a chance to live and have debt, or pay just enough that you’ll probably die?

VolMagic on September 23, 2008 at 6:56 PM

2 months ago my 13 year old son was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes. Suddenly I am looking at a future where if he is self employed like I am, he will be unable to get insurance coverage for the preexisting condition. A part of me likes the idea of nationalized health care so that he has inexpensive access to the insulin he needs to survive.
A larger part of me, however, wants a cure found. I am reading about lots of research being done to fight this.

My question is this: Which nation will most likely find a cure? A nation with socialized health care, or a free market system. How does medical research in the US compare to England or Canada? Does a socialized system still attract the best and brightest minds, or do the rewards of free market systems create better results?
This isn’t a theroetical question to my family anymore. Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer any info.

redshirt on September 23, 2008 at 6:58 PM

ernesto on September 23, 2008 at 6:56 PM

This may sound a bit heartless, but I was raised with the understanding of “Life’s Not Fair”. I think one of the biggest problems today is not enough people understand that.

*eats*

Grue in the Attic on September 23, 2008 at 6:59 PM

seejanemom on September 23, 2008 at 6:54 PM

Um, wow. Look, I hate Tricare Prime pretty solid – they won’t replace my knee, no matter how damaged it gets, until I’m over 30. But, yeah, we’re allowed to have secondary insurance. I don’t know what branch your family is in, but we’re Navy. At Ft. Meade, where my husband is stationed, you can pick between TP and a program through John’s Hopkins, for the military, that is more like traditional insurance. Keeps you out of the MTFs. Ft. Meade can’t be the only area that does this. If it is, sorry.

Tricare will always pay claims last, but if you can get insurance through your employer, there is no law or regulation that says you cannot use it. It takes a bit more patience, but it is an alternative to paying in cash.

No reason to shout, though. I can still read small print just fine.

Anna on September 23, 2008 at 6:59 PM

I have lived under two systems, U.S. and German. (I’m an American.) I’ll take the German, semi-socialized system at its lower cost and equal care, thank-you.

But, as a capitalist, I would prefer the Swiss system, or something more market-based than the German system.

I agree with bopbottle about what we need insurance for. Perhaps semi-socialized (German) or tightly regulated (Swiss) with requirements for participation for the catastrophic health insurance. All out-of-pocket expenses should be tax deductible. Insurance beyond catastrophic would be out of taxable income. I think that this would result in a system MORE free market than we have in the US now, which is a mixing of legislation favoring insurance companies, government employees, labor unions, etc.

hpnq420 on September 23, 2008 at 7:00 PM

Another thing about Tricare – I notice I have to wait longer to get appointments, but I am treated slightly better as a military dependant than I was active duty. Chronic pain does not exist if you’re in uniform – but it’s something real literally two days after you get out (my experience only).

Anna on September 23, 2008 at 7:03 PM

Socialized medicine in the USA would not be the end of the world.

zmrzlina on September 23, 2008 at 6:50 PM

Unbelievable. I think you’ve lived in the UK too long. I’ve chatted with someone who lives in London for a couple of years now. Their once conservative, free market views have slowly evolved into an more socialized view. When questioned on this this person strongly denied my observation and stated their views had never changed.

My point is most people living in a structured environment will eventually begin to think of that environment as favorable, whether it actually is or not.

darwin on September 23, 2008 at 7:04 PM

Grue in the Attic on September 23, 2008 at 6:59 PM

Yeah, Youngblood Hawk’s doctor put it perspective for me when I read Wouk’s work:

“Being born is a dangerous thing, and the prognosis is %100 bad”

That’s life.

VolMagic on September 23, 2008 at 7:04 PM

If we stopped paying for medical care for illegal aliens, we could pay for Americans that don’t have health insurance.

In just three years, $500+ million was spent for immigrant care in Harris county, Texas, according to the Harris County Medical System…

HornetSting on September 23, 2008 at 7:04 PM

The German system is different from the British system, hpng420, and different from what Obama and the Dems are pushing

Thy’ve managed to keep some aspects of choice on a local basis, and keep costs down better than the NHS

Janos Hunyadi on September 23, 2008 at 7:05 PM

“Being born is a dangerous thing, and the prognosis is %100 bad”

That’s life.

VolMagic on September 23, 2008 at 7:04 PM

Gonna have to borrow that.

*eats*

Grue in the Attic on September 23, 2008 at 7:06 PM

zmrzlina..

I too lived in England for a brief period down towards Aldershot and did on one occassion need the local docs services.. It was convenient with a cost of 5 pound.. not bad. The prescription was 30 pound as compared to $10 in the US… in ways a push.. but again it was convenient.

I moved back to the states and in 93- Feb.. my boss from England came over for a visit with his family. His 4 year old got deathly sick as in first diagnosed as spinal meningitis..

While their daughter was in with doctors.. all they both could say was..if it was going to happen, thank G-d it happened here (as in America) .. where their daughter could receive quick and competent care..

This may have even been true for your son.. so instead of complaining about the cost… why not be thankful he got the care necessary to still be with you…

theblacksheepwasright on September 23, 2008 at 7:09 PM

Pyelonephritis! I had that last year! You don’t even want to know what was coming out of me…

Fortunately I was in such a state, and deemed to be such an infection risk, that I got put in a private room for a week with a telly, rather than on an overcrowded ward.

Aside from that my experiences of our NHS have not been good.

EnglishMike on September 23, 2008 at 7:11 PM

My point is most people living in a structured environment will eventually begin to think of that environment as favorable, whether it actually is or not. – darwin on September 23, 2008 at 7:04 PM

Sort of a political Stockholm Syndrome.

ManlyRash on September 23, 2008 at 7:16 PM

….never heard of Pyelonephritis…do you get that from bad food or bad healthcare?

HornetSting on September 23, 2008 at 7:17 PM

….never heard of Pyelonephritis…do you get that from bad food or bad healthcare?

HornetSting on September 23, 2008 at 7:17 PM

Bad judgment. It is perfectly preventable.

You get a kidney infection when you let a urinary tract infection go untreated too long, basically ignoring days and perhaps weeks of intense burning, pain and possible bleeding.

Terrie on September 23, 2008 at 7:32 PM

ernesto on September 23, 2008 at 6:56 PM

Aw go back where ya came from.

Akzed on September 23, 2008 at 7:34 PM

The health care system in the United States has its flaws, but as has been stated time and again, it is the best in the world. As Ed stated, we must allow for more free market options for patients. We as consumers must be given the ability to shop around for our providers based upon the perceived value that provider offers. Patients seeking out cosmetic procedures or other electives will call multiple offices to find out the cost of the procedure and if there are any other value added services that may come from choosing a particular practice.

Unfortunately, we have been conditioned by our pre-socialized managed care system and Medicare. We don’t ask what something will cost because “insurance” is paying for it. This has led to numerous abuses by providers and insurance companies alike. We have willfully taken ourselves out of the decision making process. The HSA programs move in the right direction. As a self-employed individual with a family, I can participate in such plans. If I should choose to be employed again and receive a company health plan, I will lose the flexibility and negotiating power I currently enjoy. Yes I pay a significantly higher deductible but we also don’t go to the doctor for a hangnail either. I am empowered by the ability to negotiate fees with my doctor.

Perhaps Ms. Bruton may feel differently if she had the same opportunity.

WCThunderFan on September 23, 2008 at 7:40 PM

Yeah, Ernesto….

If you are illegal…you don’t even have to pay.

If you are an American citizen, say a small business owner and cannot afford insurance….you HAVE TO PAY OR THEY SEND YOU TO COLLECTIONS!

Don’t pay for illegals-$$$$$$$$$-Problem solved.

HornetSting on September 23, 2008 at 7:44 PM

How much of every ‘healthcare’ dollar winds up paying a lawyer, or paying for behavior designed to stave off a lawyer? And how much winds up funding a health insurance bureaucracy?

Seems like if we’d eliminate the endless layers of people who don’t deliver healthcare, through tort reform and fee-for-service, we’d get a lot more of what we’re trying to buy for the money.

snickelfritz on September 23, 2008 at 7:49 PM

Statistically, it is predictable that we will encounter a significant number of people that are so intellectually under-endowed or ideologically bigoted that they are incapable of understanding the abject foulness of socialist healthcare.

It’s a business. A service industry. Not a right.

Get your tiny pulsating neurons wrapped around that fact and maybe you’ll poop out the right economic answer.

Free market solution. Deregulation.

LimeyGeek on September 23, 2008 at 7:55 PM

The Wild Duck has coverage in both Canada and the U.S.A.

A few humorous but sadly true observations:

With my uninsured twenty-something son,hoping for Barack Obama to bring Universal Health Insurance to the USA, I posed a choice: “Would you rather have access to a doctor, without insurance, or have access to insurance, but no access to a doctor?” If you lose access to your physician due to retirement or relocation in Canada, it can take up to 5 years to find a replacement.

With my older friends, my advice is: “Just before you turn 50, immigrate to Canada, where the health care is “free”.
But if you do, then fall in love with a doctor or a nurse, so you’ll have a chance to jump some of the lines. Also, keep paying for your insurance in the US, because for the really expensive procedures, even doctors and nurses don’t get to jump THOSE lines.

For routine emergency room procedures, I prefer Canadian insurance (though you should keep track of which hospitals have the shortest waits — usually the small, country hospitals). For serious procedures, there are waits for years in Canada, so I prefer the US. For routine medical visits, even if you are in a physician practice it can take 6 weeks just to get in to change a prescription…advantage…US. Overall…US.

The Wild Duck on September 23, 2008 at 8:11 PM

UK – among the lowest cancer survival rate in Europe.

US- among the highest survival rates in the world.

In the UK certain drugs are available in some parts of the country to patients but not in others- it’s a post code lottery. Your chances of surviving a serious illness seem to depend on how well your local authority manages its budget. Your life could be in the hands, not of a doctor, but of a bureaucrat.

Also check this out-

The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE), which has been widely criticised for banning drugs from NHS use as too expensive, squandered £4.5million on ‘communications’ last year.

This was £1.1million more than the £3.4million the controversial organisation spent on assessing new medicines.

Jay Mac on September 23, 2008 at 8:20 PM

that 16% of heath care costs includes the money we invest in advancing technology…something the UK doesn’t do much of.

further, cancer survival rates in the US are 20% higher than that of our healthier betters in the UK.

bloghooligan on September 23, 2008 at 8:26 PM

Would you rather have the most attentive and consistent of care and get forced into bankruptcy, or would you rather have more efficiency, less cost — and get ignored or worse while fighting to get attention?

False choice. Just because because government doesn’t pay for your health care does not mean one has to be forced into bankruptcy. People pay for all sorts of unexpected expenses themselves without being driven into bankruptcy, but for some reason, if it’s a medical expense, the only option is bankruptcy.

BS.

Having said that, if it’s a matter of saving my life and facing bankruptcy or suffering needlessly and possibly dying(but hey,it’s free,right?),I’ll take the first. Costs aren’t always measured in dollars and cents. I can come back from bankruptcy; I can’t come back from the grave.

xblade on September 23, 2008 at 8:32 PM

We need more free market in this system, not less.
Ed Morrissey

I am a fan of Ed Morrissey’s posts, but, I think this subject is a moot point.

As a member of the hospital profession, I agree with Ed and I wish we had more free market options (like Medical IRAs) in this country.

But illegal immigration, and the next amnesty for tens of millions of future Democrat socialized medicine voters, will make this topic a moot point.

Illegal immigration, and the accompanying amnesty ( 6 amnesties since 1986 according to http://www.numbersUSA), is the quickest way to Socialized medicine in this country.

It is just a matter of time.

ColtsFan on September 23, 2008 at 8:44 PM

I know two breast cancer survivors who utilized the Oncotype Dx test to determine the likelihood of breast cancer recurrence in women with newly diagnosed, early stage invasive breast cancer. It is a multi-gene assay of of the the cancer cells. This is for sentinal node biopsy where there are clear margins during surgical removal and no cells detected in the first lymph node. This helps with the decision of whether to have chemo + radiation or just radiation. The test costs over $4000 and both patients had difficulty convincing the insurer to foot the bill. But if they tested favorably with no need for chemotherapy then the cost saving would be huge. Both tested favorable. And after radiation and almost three years out……everything is great. But that would not have been possible in the NHS system. Patients would have had to take chemo and most likely treatments that would be considered out of date but more of a value. The newest chemo treatments in the last few years is very very expensive.

scruplesrx on September 23, 2008 at 8:48 PM

Democrats want to do for the health care system what they did for Fannie Mae.

It warms the coccles.

drjohn on September 23, 2008 at 8:51 PM

The doc in the picture is holding the x-ray backward.

mikeyboss on September 23, 2008 at 9:07 PM

The German system is different from the British system, hpng420, and different from what Obama and the Dems are pushing

Thy’ve managed to keep some aspects of choice on a local basis, and keep costs down better than the NHS

Janos Hunyadi

Yes, I should have been more clear. My view is that the UK and Canadian systems are lousy, but…we are kidding ourselves if we think we have the best system. It is much better than the UK’s.

I think the Swiss have the best system, followed by the Netherlands, and then maybe Germany.

hpnq420 on September 23, 2008 at 9:16 PM

In just three years, $500+ million was spent for immigrant care in Harris county, Texas, according to the Harris County Medical System…

HornetSting on September 23, 2008 at 7:04 PM

Exactly! In the U.S. if you are illegal, you are not expected to pay for medical costs. Let 1 American citizen try that! Illegals get free health care and U.S. citizens pay for it through higher hospital costs. Illegals cannot be traced to pay their bills as they move every 6 months. They all have the same names. They are impossible to trace. But if you or I were in a hospital and couldn’t pay our bills, the hospital would be able to find us because we are honorable, tax paying citizens who pay our bills on time. We waste billions of dollars on people who come into this country illegally. Thousands of California hospitals (not to mention Texas, Arizona, and Colorado hospitals) have closed because of this influx of illegals. Don’t get me started on the Mexican nationals on our border cities who come across to have their babies. We Americans are being snookered by the Mexican government.

Neocon Peg on September 23, 2008 at 9:37 PM

My point is most people living in a structured environment will eventually begin to think of that environment as favorable, whether it actually is or not.
darwin on September 23, 2008 at 7:04 PM

That cuts both ways. FM or National health care. A lot of Mericans are having second thoughts now that the FM economy is tanking.

Chimpy on September 23, 2008 at 9:56 PM

zmrzlina on September 23, 2008 at 6:50 PM

An older British friend of mine disagrees w/you. He was involved in a serious car accident where a very drunk driver ran an intersection and plowed into his side of the car. He was left w/many serious injuries. Complete reconstruction of his left arm and ankle. Ugly. He was told, “you are in your 50s, they don’t like to give this aggressive treatment to older people b/c it is better used on younger people.” He received the physical therapy he deserved b/c of his grit and determination to be afforded the best that was available and was a complete pain in the ass to the NHS until he got it. He tells of many tales of rationed care however due to age. He and his wife now keep private insurance in addition to the crazy amount they pay for their “Free” healthcare w/the NHS. He is not a big fan. Althought he says he received excellent care, he had to fight tooth and nail to get it b/c of his age.

JAM on September 23, 2008 at 10:08 PM

If people think that medical care under a government system will be better or at least the same, they are seriously mistaken. Under a socialized system, there will be two tiers of medical care. One for the elites, and one for the rest of us. No doubt.

bloggless on September 23, 2008 at 10:34 PM

Socialized Medical is not good. I am a courier. I pick up at a lot of Doctors offices. I meet people from Canada, Europe and even South America there. Why? Because of how long you have to wait to get the treatments. Time is of the essence for some cases. They tell me that they would give anything to have Health Facilities like America has. We don’t need a Government system. Only one thing, the Insurance Companies should be held to some of their nit picking. Some of their sneaky ways of getting out of what we pay them to have. If medicine became Social. We would lose our Doctors. Why should they take a cut in what they went to school for?

sheebe on September 24, 2008 at 2:48 AM

If people think that medical care under a government system will be better or at least the same, they are seriously mistaken. Under a socialized system, there will be two tiers of medical care. One for the elites, and one for the rest of us. No doubt.

bloggless on September 23, 2008 at 10:34 PM

Great way you put that. True! :)

sheebe on September 24, 2008 at 2:51 AM

What’s truly needed is a shift away from comprehensive insurance care to a combination of catastrophic coverage partnered with tax-free HSAs that would allow people to choose from truly competing providers for what’s known as primary care.

Insurance in all forms is a scam. For an insurance company to make a profit, it must take in more money than it pays out. Therefore, each customer must pay more for his policy than he gets back in benefits. The bottom line is that when we buy insurance, we pay more than we get back. That will never make for cheaper medical bills.

Healthcare will never be affordable until Medicare goes away.

TMK on September 24, 2008 at 3:02 AM

Health insurance should be more like car insurance. You don’t get car insurance from your employer, do you? The government? No. If you are fit, and get regular physicals, you should have next to nothing in rates.

If you are a 50 year old sedentary slob, smoker, or ride a motorcycle – you should have super high rates.

You know what is really driving up health care costs today? Obesity and the related effects (diabetes, heart disease, cancer). Now people want the government (i.e., you the taxpayer) to pay to treat people who fail at life and fail at being healthy? Hogwash.

The only thing the government needs is a catastrophic fund to cover illnesses and trauma that is out of the hands of individuals. Being born with a genetic disorder, that is in no way your fault, should not cause you to be bankrupt.

Let people work directly with doctors or specialists to lower costs, without using a third party. Allow wavers for common exams and procedures to decline malpractice suits in case something goes wrong.

Keep the government away from health care as much as possible. I use Tricare (military run government health care) and it is ok on somethings, but good luck getting anything done quickly. There is a lot of waiting. Forget about seeing a specialist in short order.

spec_ops_mateo on September 24, 2008 at 3:11 AM

What amazes me is the number of liberals who refer to the US medical system as being a free market one.

To a communist, there is pure communism, and everything else is a form of capitalism.

MarkTheGreat on September 24, 2008 at 7:48 AM

zmrzlina on September 23, 2008 at 6:50 PM

My middle son has required expensive monthly treatments at Children’s Hospital in DC basically since birth. There was never any question whether it would be covered by private insurance. No one ever gave us a hard time over it. We have an FSA that is fully funded with our elected amount on day 1 of the calendar year, and we use this to cover copays and deductibles.

We are moving to an HSA but my firm still plans to fully cover the deductible.

American health care isn’t perfect, but we can do better than both the Canadians and the Brits do. Vigorous competition by nonprofit insurers would be a start.

DrSteve on September 24, 2008 at 7:48 AM

Just to chime in here again after a good night’s rest.

I think the US system has been dragged down by frivolous lawsuits. If we had tort reform that limited malpractice legal action, etc, then the cost of medical care would come down, since a great deal of the overhead that doctors in America must deal with is malpractice insurance. I agree that most medical advances are coming out of the USA and that it is due to the free market, and certainly I don’t want to see it stop.

The only thing I’d say is that a lot of the conservatives who advocate the current US system as the best haven’t actually had to deal with catastrophe themselves and requisite bill collectors and insurance agents who by their nature don’t give a rat’s ass about your personal well-being, since they are for-profit ventures. There’s something a bit dubious about mixing profit with people’s health, and I don’t see it as a bad thing for the government to be involved in the health of its citizens. Semi-socialized systems like Germany or Australia could be a good compromise.

I have lived in both systems, and I know which one I would choose as things stand now. Right now the US system is out of control, and it will take a strong hand to guide it back to sanity. I really hope that it happens.

BTW I was sure I’d get called a troll for my post, and I’m glad to see that I haven’t been :)

zmrzlina on September 24, 2008 at 9:15 AM

The big issue I have with the US system is the inability of consumers to know prices or likely outcomesin advance. How can you have an effective free market system if the suppliers can’t tell you how much a procedure will cost up front?

How well would the free market work in buying cars if no dealer was willing to give you a price or tell you the details of the car? That’s very similar to how our health care system works.

jim m on September 24, 2008 at 11:20 AM

I have a dream

My fantasy is a State law that would allow a new type of voluntary hospital care. These special hospitals would treat only patients who had filed iron clad documents of agreement that they would not sue the hospital or practioners for malpractice. If a mistake was made medically, the hospital would have to pick up the costs of continued treatment according to the advice of a state commission. However that treatment would only be given at hospitals participating in the program. Doctors would be fully liable for criminal malpractice.

Practitioners would be off the hook for lawsuits. However, at these hospitals, nurses would not make 50K – 70K. Doctors would make that amount, but their medical school costs would be financed. Nurses would make a salary on par with the sinking salaries of their patients.

The declining wage base of America is being crushed by the non declining wages and costs in medicine

These dream hospitals would be obviously not the top tier but they might be available to those who now have to wait until they qualify for ER to get the operation and then forfeit their homes. The state could negotiate with insurers to pay less not more money to those hospitals for treatments, if the insurer will offer policies at lower cost to participants

I know more than one person now who wishes they could legally get treatment for themselves at the local vets, which would be better than nothing and a whole lot cheaper

I would pay $50 a year for a license to let my vet give me a shot of antibiotics it has gotten that bad

I hate socialized medicine. I worked for gov. It is a monster. But the lawyer driven money wringing system we have now is crushing people in the lower half while the politicians use our private system to pay for the bottom, the illegals, and their best friends the lawyers.

Here the bums are kings. In socialized medicine everyone is a bum. There has to be a middle

entagor on September 24, 2008 at 11:40 AM

As a follow-on entagor, why should we be required to go to a doctor before we can get antibiotics? In the US, that effectively adds $100 to the cost of the medicine.

By the way, I would never agree not to sue a hospital or a doctor if they screwed up and I’m not at all sure your insurance company would agree to cover you if you did. (I think your medical insurance policy probably has rights of subrogation, where your insurance company can recover their costs if your doctor/hospital screws up.)

jim m on September 24, 2008 at 12:25 PM

nurses would not make 50K – 70K. Doctors would make that amount, but their medical school costs would be financed. Nurses would make a salary on par with the sinking salaries of their patients.

Nurses making 50k – 70k are probably working overtime and I don’t think that is unreasonable at all. The nurse actually cares for the patients all day long, while the doctor visits once or twice a day.

kongzilla on September 24, 2008 at 1:20 PM

Ed provides readers with a false choice. The NHS is very good and efficient at providing some services but it is far from perfect and it is easy to dig up horror stories on the NHS but none of those provide a balanced evaluation of the service the NHS provides. While living in the UK a friend visited from the US and developed a life threatening kidney condition. She was treated and released without any problems. I recall standing there as her doctor told her she was free to go. She could not get over not having to sign anything or pay anything given the length of her stay. The only paperwork offered was a copy of her treatment sheet that she could show her US doctor. My mother needed foot surgery. She opted out of the NHS for the surgery… she paid to have the same surgeon who worked on Beckham to operate on her and then did the rehab under the NHS. What Ed doesn’t tell you in his serial diatribes against the NHS is that you can go private and that private care in the UK is cheaper than the US… which has the highest cost in the world. There is choice under the UK system. I myself have horror stories from my experience with the US system. I smashed my finger in a car door and walked to the emergency room less than a block from where it happened. I had a nail removed and one stitch… my insurance company paid nearly $1000.00 and I had to pay nearly $200.00 out of my own pocket. It’s absurd.

lexhamfox on September 24, 2008 at 2:55 PM

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