Opposing the bailout plan — from the Right
posted at 12:00 pm on September 22, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Two voices have arisen in opposition to the Bush administration’s bailout plan for the credit markets. William Kristol and Rep. Mike Pence have voiced early opposition to the nearly $1 trillion plan that Congress will hastily address this week. While both see the need for action, Pence especially argues that the proposal will extend the same bad practices that led to the meltdown in the first place:
“The administration’s request amounts to the largest corporate bailout in American history,” Pence said. “Congress should act, but should act in a way that protects the integrity of our free market and protects the American taxpayer from more debt and higher taxes.”
Pence offered a number of alternatives, from suspending capital gains taxes to passing a comprehensive energy bill to establishing a commission to overhaul entitlement spending, but nothing that would give the markets the financial security Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and others believe they desperately need.
“Congress must not hastily embrace a cure that may do more harm to our economy than the disease of bad debt,” Pence said.
The Indiana Republican also stokes an ongoing call to overhaul of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two government-sponsored mortgage giants that act as a backdrop for most Americans’ home loans. The Treasury Department could use Fannie and Freddie as financial vehicles to purchase some of the bad debt before Congress grants it broader authority.
Kristol has the same concerns. He argues for a different solution, not out of a sense of “ideological purity”, but because government intervention has already proven disastrous in this crisis:
A huge speculative housing bubble has collapsed. We’re going to have a recession. Unemployment will go up. Credit is going to be tighter. The challenge is to contain the damage to a “normal” recession — and to prevent a devastating series of bank runs, a collapse of the credit markets and a full-bore depression.
Everyone seems to agree on the need for a big and comprehensive plan, and that the markets have to have some confidence that help is on the way. Funds need to be supplied, trading markets need to be stabilized, solvent institutions needs to be protected, and insolvent institutions need to be put on the path to a deliberate liquidation or reorganization.
But is the administration’s proposal the right way to do this? It would enable the Treasury, without Congressionally approved guidelines as to pricing or procedure, to purchase hundreds of billions of dollars of financial assets, and hire private firms to manage and sell them, presumably at their discretion There are no provisions for — or even promises of — disclosure, accountability or transparency. Surely Congress can at least ask some hard questions about such an open-ended commitment.
The crux of the skepticism over the plan comes from an absurd protocol at the heart of it. It makes Henry Paulson a de facto financial czar, in charge of potentially a trillion dollars in taxpayer money with no accountability whatsoever for his actions. Here’s the relevant proviso in the legislation:
“Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.”
We don’t allow this kind of free agency from elected officials, let alone political appointees. Not even in his role of Commander-in-Chief does a President have a mandate that is completely unreviewable. Henry Paulson may or may not be the most brilliant thinker in high finance, but even if he was, why would Americans want to give him literally a carte blanche with the equivalent of one-third of our annual budget? With no review possible?
It’s absurd, and at its heart, it’s un-American, in the sense that America exists precisely because of our desire to rein in government and make it accountable to the people. We gave up on the monarchy in 1776. We certainly didn’t do that to trade in King George for Czar Henry. Only in a panic, in which Congressional leadership abdicates its role to keep executive power in check, would any American Congress agree to surrender its Constitutional mandate for oversight. And that panic may be taking place now.
Barack Obama has decided to wait a few days to study the matter before determining whether to offer his support. His only impulse in opposition thus far has been to demand a partnering stimulus package, in which government would spend even more money as it prepared to buy a trillion dollars of debt. John McCain seems to be thinking more clearly. He has called for an oversight board to run the bailout rather than a single appointee, and today expressed his misgivings:
I am greatly concerned that the plan gives a single individual the unprecedented power to spend $1 trillion – trillion – dollars without any meaningful accountability. Never before in the history of our nation has so much power and money been concentrated in the hands of one person. This arrangement makes me deeply uncomfortable. When we are talking about a trillion dollars of taxpayer money “trust me” just isn’t good enough.
We will not solve a problem caused by poor oversight with a plan that has no oversight. Part of the reason we are facing this crisis is an antiquated regulatory system of uncoordinated agencies that haven’t been doing the job.
I believe we need a high level oversight board to impose accountability and establish concrete criteria for who gets help and who does not. They must ensure that throughout this crisis, the government is a careful steward of the taxpayer’s dollars. The oversight board should be bipartisan and have qualified citizens who have no agenda but the protection of taxpayers and the financial markets. People like: Warren Buffet, who supports my opponent, Governor Romney, who supports me, or Mayor Bloomberg, an independent.
The firms we help need accountability too. We cannot have taxpayers footing the bill for bloated golden parachutes like we see in the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy, where the top executives are asking for $2.5 billion in bonuses after they ran the company into the ground. The senior executives of any firm that is bailed out by treasury should not be making more than the highest paid government official.
I would also urge transparency throughout this process. The American people have the right to know which firms will be helped, what that selection will be based on and how much that help will cost. The details of the process and the transaction itself should all be made available online for public scrutiny.
We got into this crisis through a curious blend of government intervention and lack of oversight. Democrats and Republicans both tried manipulating the credit market for political purposes, demanding lower standards for lending while not supervising the accounting practices that resulted. At first blush, this plan looks like more of the same, only this time we’ll spend massive amounts of taxpayer money directly and have absolutely no oversight on how it will be spent.
Given the government’s blame in creating this crisis, I understand the necessity in the government taking action to defuse it before it creates a global financial meltdown. However, we need to correct the problems we created in the first place, not by giving $1 trillion to a single person with no accountability whatsoever, but by dismantling the machinery of government interference that gave birth to the credit crisis. In the short run, we need a lot more accountability in government, not less, in order to ensure that the long-term goal of getting Washington out of private lending policy reaches success. This plan goes in the wrong direction.
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Well, most of the politicians ARE Lawyers… so killin all the Lawyers would make a good start on step 2 of the operation…
Romeo13 on September 22, 2008 at 1:34 PM
Paulsen for Dictator??
Rather than put DC is complete charge, we should let it crash and burn, so our grandchildren don’t end up paying even more for our stupidity.
michaelo on September 22, 2008 at 1:37 PM
I fail to see how this helps Michelle Ma’bell’s children.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 22, 2008 at 1:39 PM
We live in a house built over the years by many owners. Many of the rooms are are no longer functional and serve no purpose. From the outside, the house is chopped up and unappealing because when a new owner added on to the house, he didn’t destroy the useless parts. He simply built on top of it.
genso on September 22, 2008 at 1:46 PM
So much for addressing the underlying causes:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/273970.php
Dudley Smith on September 22, 2008 at 1:48 PM
So you’re requesting a wrecking ball, then?
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 22, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Drudge has a link up to a Bloomberg article blaming the Dems. for this whole debacle.
It’s easy to read and understand, and is very damaging to Democrats.
Any way to make this go viral? Should be mandatory reading in every home in America.
JiangxiDad on September 22, 2008 at 1:53 PM
We either tear it down ourselves or let it fall on us…or our children.
Remember this blast from the past? “Who is John Galt?”
genso on September 22, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Wow… Frank… stuck on stupid…
Romeo13 on September 22, 2008 at 1:53 PM
My top concern is that the sub-prime mortgage problem is the “excuse” to act, but the bail-out will cover a multitude of sins. The size of the bail-out just doesn’t match up with the size of the mortgage losses.
Let’s say the average mortgage is for $280,000 (likely overstated) and the typical home involved has lost 25% of former market value. That’s a paper loss of $70,000… but a $700B bail-out would theoretically cover 10 million homes.
Where’s all the money going? This looks like a smoke screen…
T J Green on September 22, 2008 at 1:54 PM
Quite. Touche.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 22, 2008 at 1:54 PM
The problem, T J, is that, in their ultimate wisdom, the wizards of Wall street chopped up all of the mortgages into little bits and packaged them as derivatives so they could sell them, essentially, 10 times. It would be cheaper to just buy all the homes of under foreclosure and give them to the people living in them if it was just about mortgages.
genso on September 22, 2008 at 2:02 PM
Hmnmmm… just hit me…
Money, once in the system, is not destroyed. It only changes hands…
Money is the lubrication needed to run an economy. Without sufficient capital, just like an engine with no lubrication, it grinds to a halt.
They are saying this is a liquidity problem…
Isn’t it amazing that the 700 billion which needs to be pumped into the economy, to regain liquidity, is almost EXACTLY equal to the amount of wealth we are exporting due to our own poor energy policy?
Interesting Co Inky dink dere….
Romeo13 on September 22, 2008 at 2:03 PM
Slow Down!
Our “free” markets are guided and influenced by our beliefs and practices, regarding government which controls the game.
Therefore, government corruption intervention and/or ignorance has to be liable for this Hugantic government acquisition of American wealth!
Conservatives need to coalesce around the taxpayer on Main St.
No way do we pay for this tainted Congressional Tea before a full accounting.
The world will not end. Washington will not become Darfur.
Randy
williars on September 22, 2008 at 2:05 PM
I think that it may be more of a solvency problem than a liquidity problem.
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 2:18 PM
The commercial paper market nearly collapsed last Thursday when lots more money market (i.e., CASH) funds above an beyond The Reserve Fund started to “break the buck”. Which resulted in a run on money market funds to “cash out” before it was too late. Which caused Commercial paper to STOP trading.
Meaning what? That the American economy STOPS. DEAD. IN ITS TRACKS.
Because businesses large and small and of all shapes and stripes rely on commercial paper’s availability for short term, inexpensive loans for making payroll, making deliveries to customers, ordering inventory from suppliers, and everyday average cash operations. Without commercial paper, all that STOPS. Meaning businesses STOP operating. Meaning we, the American populace, STOP GETTING PAID. We lose our jobs, our homes, our credit ratings, the WHOLE NINE. Tent cities. Lines for bread and soup. Welcome to 1930 – 32 all over again.
Look at the data, people, not the kool-aid.
And NO, I’m NOT a Liberal. I’m as conservative as the rest of you. I simply am in position to see some of the underlying data, that’s all.
Shirotayama on September 22, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Hmmm… so… if’n I read you correctly…
All businesses essentialy get short term loans from banks, and pay interest on those, to get their working capital?
Uh, why? I run a business and have working capital on hand… why incur the extra debt for the loan in the first place?
Thats the whole problem with American business, we have become dependent on Bankers telling us we need them to do normal business…. and they then take a cut of every transaction.
Romeo13 on September 22, 2008 at 2:26 PM
The economy needs a new set of tires. You can try to make it run on the rims if you want but you’ll just have further to walk back to the garage when the whole thing falls apart.
genso on September 22, 2008 at 2:31 PM
The capital has to come from somewhere. Equity, long term debt or short term debt. If all of the busniesses which did rely on commericial paper did go bankrupt, we would see great depression 2.0, and your business would notice the effects soon enough. It can’t be allowed to happen.
phronesis on September 22, 2008 at 2:32 PM
I agree with you Romeo13. If you own a business and you are using paper to do anything other than expand, you are setting yourself up for failure. Can anyone point to the event that made credit the preferable business model?
genso on September 22, 2008 at 2:38 PM
Sure looks that way. Liquidity is the symptom, solvency is the disease.
a capella on September 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Government “help” to business is just as disastrous as government persecution… the only way a government can be of service to national prosperity is by keeping its hands off.
- Ayn Rand
Xolom on September 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM
You make my point for me, by leaving out onhand CAPITAL in you explanation.
Microsoft does NOT run on short term paper… it has liquid assets onhand, in cash, and always did… its one reason Bill Gates was able to build it so rapidly.
We’ve become a country that thinks it can borrow its way to prosperity, and then gets suprised when we get handed the bill, with the Vig attatched.
Can we let the system meltdown? Heck no… but we need to make systemic changes to get out of this borrowing cycle.
Romeo13 on September 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Actualy, if I understand the “reason” for the bail out, its not solvency… but the inability to get loans… the assets still exist… the money has not been destroyed, its just, for some reason, not being loaned.
Crises in confidence?
But I still don’t think you can take 700 billion dollars and export them to oil rich countries, without that having an impact on the amount of available capital needed to run the short term loan part of the economy.
Romeo13 on September 22, 2008 at 2:43 PM
So you pay your employees from cash in your safe? I didn’t think so. You have your money in a bank, which invests it. When everyone comes to take their cash out “just in case,” the system collapses. Last Wednesday morning, trades were lined up to take out $500 Billion instead of the usual $7 Billion.
pedestrian on September 22, 2008 at 2:45 PM
I believe it was the Knights Templar. Instead of people having to conduct long distance trade by carrying around gold, they agreed to a take credits on gold deposited safely. That way the risk of theft was greatly reduced.
pedestrian on September 22, 2008 at 2:49 PM
In fact, you’re talking to someone who never has carried a credit card and, while i do have money in the bank, i use several banks so that all of my money is insured. If the economy collapses, i will be able to wind my business down without liability and take advantage of the ensuing rebuilding. I’m not so greedy that I have given up on sound business practices.
genso on September 22, 2008 at 2:50 PM
They didn’t give credit. They charged a fee for taking deposits in one location and allowing for withdrawals in another. Simple banking, no credit.
genso on September 22, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Then why doesn’t the Treasury offer this liquidity directly to those who need it instead of buying bad debt off corrupt companies? I think letting bond holder lose is a fitting lesson. We can’t make and enforce enough rules to make folks behave; they must be allowed to hang themselves.
Holding up to $700 billion in MBS’s in no way means that’s all we will be buying. it simply means the treasury can’t hold more than that. After buying at, say, 30 cents on the dollar (which seems like a deal if we can eventually sell for 50 cents), we could be big losers if Paulson turns around to resell at, say 20 cents on the dollar in order to buy more toxic paper. Maybe $5 trillion more. However much will ultimately satisfy the “markets.”
In the end, the trillions in bad debt will have been “laundered.” The best of the worst paper will have been sold at a loss to the Treasury, but $700 billion of the worst of the worst will never leave our nation’s ballance sheet. This will cost us between one and two trillion dollars even after the Treasury dumps the trash back on the market for an alleged “profit.” I think we could give less money away, no strings attached, to provide necessary liquidity for a slowing economy.
shuzilla on September 22, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Everyone tried to wind down their business on Wednesday, and the system nearly collapsed. They were all following sound business practice.
pedestrian on September 22, 2008 at 2:55 PM
No, my money is not sitting in a safe… but neither am I BORROWING the money I need to pay employees.
But it seems I’m more the exception, than the rule, WHICH IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.
My draw on accounts is fairly predictable. My business investments conservative… I’m not borrowing money… and I don’t feel the need to make a run for my money as its not tied up in risky investments, but in Fed Insured accounts (I’m a small business, and learned my lesson when I got killed by United Airlines going bankrupt).
The run was NOT on banks, but on investment firms who were not Federaly insured, if I read this stuff correctly.
Romeo13 on September 22, 2008 at 2:57 PM
And just today MSFT released a plan to return more of its cash to its shareholders, because keeping it in its coffers was inefficient. And MSFT’s cash may include a lot commericial paper from other companies, so the implosion of the commericial paper market would directly affect it and reduce its cash position. I manage money for a living and I look for healthy balance sheets in the companies in which I invest, but keeping too much cash on one’s books robs one’s shareholders of better returns. Yes, the leverage that the IBanks used was ridiculous. Too many companies used too much leverage and that needs to change. But if every cash rich company did nothing but hoard capital it would squeeze off all economic growth and do their shareholders a disservice by generating lousy returns. And if those cash rich companies were forced to write off the commericial paper that they held, they would no longer be cash rich.
phronesis on September 22, 2008 at 2:57 PM
You think selling derivatives on sub-prime and alt-a mortgages is sound business? Then, right there’s your problem. Simple greed using high risk junk. And it’s coming home to roost now.
genso on September 22, 2008 at 2:58 PM
You can find laws on credit in the Code of Hammurabi a little over 3500 years ago. Agriculture would seem to be a business where a credit system is helpful.
dedalus on September 22, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Yep, MSFT is doing this… but notice that Bill Gates is no longer running MSFT.
The MSFT cash position was never about maximum profits, or GREED, which is what has driven this whole meltdown, but about stability, ie, having the liquid assets available to the company to weather a problem.
PS, most of us in the IT industry think Bill Gates was a technical idiot… but he was a business genius.
Crap, thats an idea… lets Draft Bill Gates, and Murdock, and three or 4 other people who actualy DID somthing to gain wealth (not junk bonders) to make up a board to give us some suggestions.
Romeo13 on September 22, 2008 at 3:08 PM
Yeah…love the historical perspective, but it’s really a hypothetical question. The point is that the limits of allowable risk has been pushed too far.
genso on September 22, 2008 at 3:11 PM
More recently in 2004 the SEC changed the leverage restrictions for 5 firms–Goldman, Morgan Stanley, Merrill Lynch, Lehman, Bear Stearns. Three of them are gone now.
dedalus on September 22, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Kudos for the answer to my hypothetical. And also support for my point.
genso on September 22, 2008 at 3:17 PM
I don’t know, but the money quote to me is:
“It is a classic case of socializing the risk while privatizing the profit. The Democrats and the few Republicans who oppose portfolio limitations could not possibly do so if their constituents understood what they were doing.”
I also enjoyed this easily consumed and understood narrative (which McCain/Palin should devote to memory, rinse and repeat for the next 40 days):
“Why did Bear Stearns fail, and how does that relate to AIG? It all seems so complex.
But really, it isn’t. Enough cards on this table have been turned over that the story is now clear. The economic history books will describe this episode in simple and understandable terms: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac exploded, and many bystanders were injured in the blast, some fatally.
Fannie and Freddie did this by becoming a key enabler of the mortgage crisis. They fueled Wall Street’s efforts to securitize subprime loans by becoming the primary customer of all AAA-rated subprime-mortgage pools. In addition, they held an enormous portfolio of mortgages themselves.
In the times that Fannie and Freddie couldn’t make the market, they became the market. Over the years, it added up to an enormous obligation. As of last June, Fannie alone owned or guaranteed more than $388 billion in high-risk mortgage investments. Their large presence created an environment within which even mortgage-backed securities assembled by others could find a ready home.
The problem was that the trillions of dollars in play were only low-risk investments if real estate prices continued to rise. Once they began to fall, the entire house of cards came down with them.”
As for the politics of this thing, McCain knows he was a sponsor of S 190, the Senate bill that would have imposed the portfolio limitations. He should be ringing this bell every day for the next 40 days until everyone in America knows that all roads to this bailout lead from the Fannie and Freddy mess. My guess is that he won’t and we will have President Obama. If McCain ain’t wacking this pinata today he never will. Sometimes I seriously wonder if he is even trying to win or just trying to lose with respect.
Angry Dumbo on September 22, 2008 at 3:35 PM
Too simple. I’ll try to be brief.
The bank from whom you borrowed money to buy a house also borrowed that money from another bank, most likely an investment bank. This bank-to-bank loan comes with terms we never see as consumers. It sets requirements for debt-to-income ratios, cash reserves, liquidity, asset to liability ratios, etc.. If your mortgage bank violates one of these terms, they are in default on their loan.
Here’s what happened: A great deal of homeowners bought or re-financed their homes to take advantage of the booming RE market in the early 00’s. Many of these loans were of questionable viability, but nobody cared. Many mortgages came with a very low initial payment ($500/month on a $500,000 loan). But, usually with payment #37, that monthly payment leaped into the thousands (one neighbor went from $500/month to $4,300/month). The homeowner has no way of making that payment, an defaults. A few things now happen, and all are relevant. One, the bank is not receiving it’s income, and two, the property goes into foreclosure or bankruptcy.
Loss of Revenue
When an average number of defaults occur, the banks can handle the decreased cash flow until they foreclose and re-sell the home. When 25-30% of the mortgages they hold default, they can’t handle the loss of revenue quite as well so they have to borrow cash in order to pay their loans. This worsens the conditions of their balance sheets, and may end up tripping a default under the terms of their borrowed funds.
Foreclosure/Bankruptcy (homeowner)
When a home goes into foreclosure/bankruptcy, it’s value drops, bringing down the value of other homes in the neighborhood. In normal times, you won’t even notice. When 25-30% of your neighborhood is in foreclosure, the value plummets. This de-valuing of the properties has a big effect on the banks. Remember those mortgage-backed securities? The value of those securities is tied to the value of your home. As it declines, your mortgage bank is required to mark down the value of it’s assets weekly, based on market value of your home. This can also trigger a default on it’s borrowed funds.
Right now, the mortgage banks are essentially defaulting with every tick of the clock. They can’t meet their debt obligations. The banks they owe see the value of the security interest they hold nose-diving, and this most likely can cause them to default on their own borrowed funds.
This is the spiral of debt we’re swirling around in now. Cash has virtually stopped flowing up; assets are devaluing making rescue borrowing very hard if not impossible, and banks are hoarding the cash they have to fend off a bank run (see Indy Mac Bank).
Every entity that is using a mortgage backed security is in trouble. The farther home values drop, the worse it gets. The trouble, unfortunately, is not linear. It’s an exponential domino effect.
Whew…and that’s the short version. But the problem is solvency.
BobMbx on September 22, 2008 at 3:39 PM
Wonderful job with this “bailout” Congress.
As of 3PM Eastern time, the dollar is plummeting and oil is skyrocketing.
Hard to believe how the largest dip directly into socialism America has ever had is imploding us. And it’s happening right before our eyes.
*chugs*
*and chugs again*
drunkenmaster on September 22, 2008 at 3:42 PM
If true, then this is a royal turd. Sounds like fraud to me.
T J Green on September 22, 2008 at 3:47 PM
drunkenmaster on September 22, 2008 at 3:42 PM
Can I have a swig of that?
genso on September 22, 2008 at 3:54 PM
This nation is hopelessly divided and it has absolutely no leadership in the entire government. If those jackasses let the financial markets collapse, the economy will descend into chaos and then it will be every man and woman for themselves. This once great country is about to crash and burn . . . get ready for the flame out.
rplat on September 22, 2008 at 4:23 PM
It looks to me like it’s about time to declare martial law because these idiot politicians will never accomplish anything.
rplat on September 22, 2008 at 4:26 PM
Bears repeating.
JiangxiDad on September 22, 2008 at 4:27 PM
While I support the bailout plan because it is needed. I also agree with McCain it needs massive oversight and He should add a defined time limit. this should never become an ongoing funded agency. Get in fix the problem get out. Let’s face facts here. congress is too stupid to understand the problem let alone what is needed to fix it. I have no faith in Frank, Polesi, reid, Dodd to manage the gov let alone more of it. At this point in time it might be better to take the $1 trillion and upgrade are military to protect us during the coming economic storm.
unseen on September 22, 2008 at 4:30 PM
Given all the tremendous leveraging, derivatives, that kind of finagling stuff, the humongous national dept and current yearly deficit, ditto with balance of trade, China and a few other counties practically own us, big credit card debt, so little put down on houses, cars, etc, I will go with mostly a solvency problem.
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 4:36 PM
P.S. Actually much of the value of the money has been destroyed. The U.S. dollar, which used to be on par with the Euro, well, you now need one and a half of them to get a Euro. God only knows what this humongous bailout will do to the dollar.
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 4:38 PM
I just called my Rep through the Capitol Switchboard. Her staff are CLUELESS. I was very nice and spoke in small words, dropping things that make them happy like,
“She can’t give Bush and his cronies a blank check with no accountability.”
etc…
Reverse psychology is a great thing. She was pleased as punch with me at the end of the conversation.
Let’s see how she votes! ;)
SkinnerVic on September 22, 2008 at 4:43 PM
FINALLY … something that can bring democratic and republican voters TOGETHER … the politicians finally succeeded. This bailout without fixing the problem that caused the bailout is not a bailout, it is a stickup.
Monkei on September 22, 2008 at 4:45 PM
Solvency in the form of a blank check is corrupt on it’s best day. They need to write off debt corresponding to what the market can bear, and what *maybe* the government can help in terms of a fraction of the companies loss. It will keep that exponential end from taking hold, and it makes the accountability factor still there. If you just have all “insolvent” assets sold – it’s a fricking field day for the companies and they walk, scot-free.
SkinnerVic on September 22, 2008 at 4:47 PM
I like your tact/technique, you just have to be sure not to giggle as you are using it.
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 4:48 PM
I don’t care what happens in the US economy. All my finances are in Zimbabwean currency, so I should be good.
YYZ on September 22, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Giving someone a home loan, that they cant pay for isn’t compassionate, its irresponsible.
Banks eating up the risk, of the loans by lenders(knowing that it would in the end be backed by the US as tax payers, is criminal and a Ponzi scheme)
Chakra Hammer on September 22, 2008 at 4:51 PM
Oil futures jump is the close of the October futures contract. November price is 108 and change, so the news is somewhat misleading.
Vashta.Nerada on September 22, 2008 at 4:51 PM
Republicans and Democrats have become like Sunnis and Shiites and the politicians are like Infidels drawing pictures of Mohammad.
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 4:51 PM
About 5 percent of all U.S. mortgages are subprime, and only a fifth of those subprime mortgages are in risk of default, she noted.
Its from an article in 2007, so a bit out of date…
Anyone got a current default rate? Because punching numbers shows that the US Gov is asking for 10% of the total owed by all homeowners nationwide in this bailout…
Romeo13 on September 22, 2008 at 4:53 PM
I am even saver than you as I’ve got all my finances in Tulips, but your investment plan is a close second.
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 4:54 PM
The people that were making the commission off of Ninja loans(No Income No Asset loans) Need to give the commission back and should probably be investigated, and have hearings on it..
The Banks that were eating up the risk of loans from lenders of the Ninja Loans knowing that the US Tax payer was going to be the backstop(need to be be investigated, brought up on charges, and thrown in prison)
Raines, Gorelick time to go to jail.
Chakra Hammer on September 22, 2008 at 4:55 PM
I am even saver than you as I’ve got all my finances in Tulips, but your investment plan is a close second.
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 4:54 PM
I’ve invest some spare cash in can goods over the last year and have seen a 20-30% return on investment. Now I’m thinking of buying some ammo and some guns should be a major market for them in the next year.
unseen on September 22, 2008 at 4:57 PM
And don’t forget the profit potential in lightbulbs coming in the next year as Congress as outlawed them in 2010.
unseen on September 22, 2008 at 4:59 PM
You should get something before the election, stock up on ammo.. Just in case hell breaks out.
Obama will outlaw the guns after the election.
Chakra Hammer on September 22, 2008 at 5:00 PM
Amazing, their are still baffoons out there who think this is a republican vs democrat game … thus they find 2 dems to list to somehow prove this is and to keep the “GAME” going.
My friends, this is an outrage and basically financial war against all Americans by both democrats and republicans. Instead of blaming dems and republicans I suggest you wake the hell up and blame the whole fricking lot of them.
Monkei on September 22, 2008 at 5:01 PM
Bad.
econavenger on September 22, 2008 at 5:02 PM
Thanks alot Bush…you just completely destroyed my “dems are socialists” argument.
SaintOlaf on September 22, 2008 at 5:02 PM
Also don’t forget to buy lots of warm clothing as it looks like our entering a mini ice age is now more likely than Al’s Apocalyptic Global Warming. Maybe get some land in Mexico cheap too.
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 5:04 PM
Chakra Hammer on September 22, 2008 at 5:00 PM
good point. think I will charge them then default. would make Obama pay for my bad decsions…
unseen on September 22, 2008 at 5:04 PM
Yup, it’s going to be pretty tough to make that argument anymore.
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 5:05 PM
I think that the good Secretary of the Treasury never left Goldman Sachs afterall!
Monkei on September 22, 2008 at 5:05 PM
I would have said it was impossible for Obama to carry Indiana, I live here, but if Pence has his way I think Obama just might win. If this collapse goes on, the Democrats will be the big winners. count on it.
As for Sec. 8, Glenn Reynolds,the libertarian law professor who writes Instapundit, said that the phrase cited by Ed, which state no review would be allowed…is standard. Its intent is to stop nuisance litigation and is present in many such bills. I think some people are making it mean something it does not.
I have heard the price set at 700 billion, we are not sure what it is of yet. But this is not a straight up bail out. The government will taking control of assets as well and some if not all of this could be made back in time.
I have no desire to bail out rich people who screwed up. But something has to be done to keep the financial sector solvent. If that does not happen all sorts of people who have nothing to do with this will suffer.
Terrye on September 22, 2008 at 5:05 PM
It’s not just sub-prime. The problem includes other prime loans, especially those that were sold with the ballon payment options. In my town, since 2001 over 3000 homes were built, all McMansions, doubling the population of the county. Today, 25-30% of them are in foreclosure (or have been). Of those, a lot of the former owners simply (literally) walked away after the mortgage payment ballooned. These homes are abandoned, and are easily spotted by the jungle now growing up around them.
Let the banks fail. It’s going to happen sooner or later. Let the market purge itself as it is designed to do. The sooner the banks begin failing with no hope of Gov’t bailout, the sooner the banks start to do what’s necessary to save themselves and not repeat this episode.
BobMbx on September 22, 2008 at 5:06 PM
Also don’t forget to buy lots of warm clothing as it looks like our entering a mini ice age is now more likely than Al’s Apocalyptic Global Warming. Maybe get some land in Mexico cheap too.
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 5:04 PM
funny you should mention that did you see this:
http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=14&art_id=vn20080921084615870C810928
Temperatures plummeted into the low teens, with residents of Kokstad and Giants Castle waking up to 0C.
Durban experienced its coldest September night in recorded history on Friday night.
Snowfalls were reported in Kokstad, Matatiele, Underberg, Mooi River, Bulwer, Himeville and Nottingham Road.
unseen on September 22, 2008 at 5:06 PM
As Big Al said one day: “One of the signs of Global Warming will be cooler temperatures”.
BobMbx on September 22, 2008 at 5:10 PM
You can take the
boyfinagler out ofthe countryGoldman Sachs, but you can’t takethe countryGoldman Sachs out ofboyfinagler.MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 5:10 PM
You know… I think i agree with that.
Chakra Hammer on September 22, 2008 at 5:12 PM
I live in the Southern Burbs of Denver… and don’t see a SINGLE forclosed house… which is why I was asking if anyone had a NUMBER of loans defaulting… a percentage…
I’m trying to get a handle on the numbers… cause just like other number from the Government, they need a bit of watching…
Romeo13 on September 22, 2008 at 5:12 PM
Here is the post at Instapundit:
Sec. 8. Review.
Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.
Such provisions aren’t unprecedented, and have long been included in federal legislation where there’s concern that litigation might gum things up. They’re generally upheld by courts, though not so much where the claims are constitutional in nature. That’s not to say that it’s a good idea here, necessarily, just that it’s not some sort of unprecedented power-grab in and of itself.
UPDATE: Comments from David Zaring.
Has Treasury been delegated an unconstitutionally broad amount of power? This question always gets asked, and the answer to it is always no. . . . It’s that “without limitation” language – suggesting that the powers granted to Treasury are examples, rather than limited authorizations, that might give a nondelegation afficianado a little pause. You know, can Treasury take this new sovereign wealth fund and buy anything it likes? Isn’t that unconstitutionally broad? Maybe so …. but your first presumption is that broad grants of power haven’t been held to be unconstitutionally broad since 1935. I think this easily passes muster.
I know a lot of people just want the government to let this take its course, but the Great Depression was the business cycle taking it course..no one wants that. I know what Bill Kristol said, but if this was a bubble bursting like the dot com bubble burst there would not be any need to intervene. It is not, it is a threat to the global financial system.
Terrye on September 22, 2008 at 5:14 PM
No he didn’t. You just can’t use it as a point of contrast, any more.
YYZ on September 22, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Chakra:
You agree with letting the banks fail? Do you agree with no paycheck? No place to cash it if you had it? I don’t think people really get what this thing is.
Terrye on September 22, 2008 at 5:15 PM
That is probably the best way to stop it from happening again..
Do Nothing, let the market flush the system, the banks will learn NOT to give out bad loans in the first place.
Chakra Hammer on September 22, 2008 at 5:15 PM
All of them won’t fail.. just “some”.. Fannie/Freddy etc.. let them go.. the Government should so a 180 and reject the bailout of them.. no money.. let them go..
Chakra Hammer on September 22, 2008 at 5:17 PM
Some people have no idea. Just play along with this GOP vs Dem game and stating anything that comes into their minds.
You can’t let them fail, but you CAN come up with ways to at least try and stop the causes for the failures in the first place.
Monkei on September 22, 2008 at 5:18 PM
And then there is this one.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23583376-7583,00.html
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 5:19 PM
You know, no one has seriously explained why we need a bailout for these companies in the first place. So let ‘em fail. OK it’ll be harder to get a mortgage or a car loan, but you’re gonna know the loan’ll be good. I don’t see a downside to economy becoming fundamentally more stable through harsh example.
Iblis on September 22, 2008 at 5:20 PM
Interesting exchange:
econavenger on September 22, 2008 at 5:20 PM
Chakra:
Stop it from happening again??/ Hello? Ever heard of the Great Depression? The stock market crash of 1929, followed by bank runs, forclosures of huge numbers of homes and businesses and farms. Unemployment rate of over 25%. Deflation.
Oh yeah, we want to punish everyone in the country just to stick it to a bunch of rich white guys who will come out of this okay no matter what the government does.
The same can not be said for the small businesses and the individual taxpayers and consumers. Once all these people lose their homes and bank fails, the schools will begin to close because people will not be paying property taxes. Services on a state level will cease because state taxes will dry up.
International trade will screech to a halt as the international banking system ceases up and then factories will close. etc.
This will effect every part of the economy.
Terrye on September 22, 2008 at 5:22 PM
You have a very LIMITED amount of knowledge regarding this crisis.
Monkei on September 22, 2008 at 5:26 PM
I think most of us have a reasonable idea. We know from past experiences that bailouts are bound to be repeated because they set precedence and lead to more bad business practices. I’m not convinced that some failed banks and businesses will sink our economy, but I’m pretty sure our increased tax burden to continually protect them might do it. Increased taxes mean there is less money available for new business and no growth. Bailouts just kick the can on down the road.
a capella on September 22, 2008 at 5:28 PM
I don’t like the idea of a bail out, but this is so huge something has to be done.
I just want the ones who were responsible for the oversight (Dodd, and Franks) to twist in the wind…they should both resign in disgrace from the committees and the senate.
The billions of dollars that these men cost us because they did not fulfill their responsibilities is disgraceful.
right2bright on September 22, 2008 at 5:30 PM
You know, no one has seriously explained why we need a bailout for these companies in the first place. So let ‘em fail. OK it’ll be harder to get a mortgage or a car loan, but you’re gonna know the loan’ll be good. I don’t see a downside to economy becoming fundamentally more stable through harsh example.
Iblis on September 22, 2008 at 5:20 PM
It will not be harder to get a laon it will be impossible to get a loan. who is going to loan you money? there will be no banks. The last run on the banks occurred in 1930 We saw how that played out. Not to mention that all depsoits are FDIc insured which means if the banks failed the taxpayers are already on the hook for trillions. the taxpayer is going to pay one way or the other. the questions is what is the best way to pay. should we pay now and aviod economic ruin or pay twice or three times more later and still have economic ruin.
unseen on September 22, 2008 at 5:31 PM
Let them fail. If they fail, in 5 years we’ll be better off. If we bail them out now we’ll be bailing something out from now on. Its gotta stop somewhere.
genso on September 22, 2008 at 5:33 PM
Until this weekend, these were not banks.
These were mortgage companies and brokerage houses…
BIG difference.
And I have to repeat one thing people forget… once money is in the system is DOES NOT GET DESTROYED, it only changes hands.
Can someone please explain to me just where in the heck all this money is?
Romeo13 on September 22, 2008 at 5:36 PM
We both know that won’t happen which is one of the reasons I’m pretty skeptical of the bailout scenario.
The same clowns will be driving the ship, the same greed and corruption will create more of the same, and that much money washing around Washington means a large share of it ends up in someone’s pocket. Right now, I’m seeing a lot of emotionally driven panic, which usually leads to bad decisions.
a capella on September 22, 2008 at 5:41 PM
Well, it’s not in my lock box, I know that.
- Al Gore
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 5:42 PM
We need your help and you need the Government’s help!
MB4 on September 22, 2008 at 5:45 PM
Romeo13, look at this article. Maybe, that will help you understand some things. Plus, Buffet, and maybe Soros, pulled out of long positions in financials before last week. Now the people who we have been sending our money to for their oil say they will not help some of the failing companies with capital. Maybe a combination of greed and terrorism.
genso on September 22, 2008 at 5:46 PM
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