Quote of the day; Update: Bonus quote added
posted at 10:10 pm on September 19, 2008 by Allahpundit
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“You know we’d be lucky… Well, I’ll leave it at that.”
*
“If it doesn’t pass, then heaven help us all.”
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Understood. However, re-read the passage I quoted from the Declaration of Independence. We had no authority to secede from Great Britain. But we did.
ManlyRash on September 20, 2008 at 12:00 AM
When you start talking about fighting, don’t forget how many soldiers who have fought and died for people you don’t agree with to have their voice. I’m not projecting that opinion, that’s what many of them have said and will say when asked.
Spirit of 1776 on September 20, 2008 at 12:00 AM
FIFY. *sigh* I guess I have no choice but to enlist…if only to correct your spelling.
ManlyRash on September 19, 2008 at 11:53 PM
Blue State Elitist :P
We have different English in the Sovereign Nation of Texas.
/jk
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:01 AM
Man up, you simpering nancy. *smack* You pick up your weapon and repeat the opening paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence. And, if necessary, you die in defense of those words.
I know I would.
ManlyRash on September 20, 2008 at 12:02 AM
Yeah, but those very types would be fighting for Texas.
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:03 AM
Yes we did. The Declaration explains in explicit terms the violations of law (English law) for which the colonies didn’t have recourse. It also makes appeal on ground of natural law, which isn’t necessary for this point, but I mention so as to not give the impression it’s not there.
That is a completely different situation then now. You have a vote, and the fact that the collective vote doesn’t come out favorably all the time is in no way similar to not having a vote or representation in Parliament when ruled by those laws.
We had authority both morally and legally because we were not afforded recourse for violations of English law.
Spirit of 1776 on September 20, 2008 at 12:04 AM
We got a 9 1/2% 30-yr. fixed with 20% down in 1982, refinancing once also to a fixed rate. I remember when the ARMs started. They scared me to death, as did the credit lines.
Thanks, AP, for adding the 2nd link. It was definitely something I couldn’t have picked up from the comments, although I’m a little curious what the NYT said about Schumer. I’m assuming it had to do with his fear-mongering.
I think the push to fear-monger began above Schumer’s head, frankly. Republicans didn’t have anything to gain. The Dems had everything to gain. It will be interesting to see if Andrew Cuomo can lead a non-partisan investigation into the short-selling. If anything was done deliberately, there had better be criminal prosecutions.
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 12:04 AM
I doubt that this is as bad as stated.
Rather than being stampeded into panic, I suggest that we hold those responsible accountable: Congress, who started this mess back in the 1990’s. Bill Clinton, whose legacy diminishes more each day. Democrats, who ran Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac into the ground.
We know the villains in this play, and right now they are busy casting blame on President Bush and John McCain, two of the people in Washington who tried to avert this calamity but were snubbed by the egg-sucking hounds on the left.
But enough about Harry Reid.
Doug on September 20, 2008 at 12:05 AM
I always forget which ones they are, but several states are not actually states. PA is one of them. It’s a Commonwealth and has different rules.
I won’t swear to it, but I think one of them is the right to secede. There is some odd rules in the TX founding documents too, but I am too lazy to look into it at the moment. I am fairly certain that there was some sort of back out clause when TX became a State.
Forgive my ignorance on TX history. I was born in NJ and had to suffer through their publik ejukashun sistim.
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:05 AM
I would be there with them. And I am no “Stars-and-Bars Forever” rebel pining for the Old Confederacy.
ManlyRash on September 20, 2008 at 12:06 AM
You seriously believe that? That men and women who fight overseas to protect their homeland would want to come back and fight over political ideology? That would make their service meaningless. They protect everything we stand for, including free speech, etc.
Spirit of 1776 on September 20, 2008 at 12:08 AM
think a lot of people saw problems coming with the credit sector, but most of them did not think it would get this bad this fast. They thought they could work their way through it.
The panel also said that both candidates need to ease up on the rhetoric. They do not know what the Fed and the Secretary know and they might actually make things worse.
Terrye on September 19, 2008 at 10:35 PM
I saw it coming, I tried to warn people. I was called a chicken little and was told the GDP numbers prove that the economy was doing great. I was 100% in cash before the fall. Was able to get back in and made a very nice profit thurs and friday. I am again back in 100% cash because I do not trust the dems to work together on this. We will see. But things are really bad out there. It would be hard for McCain and Obama to make things worse.
One thing that no one is talking about is the tax rev that the federal gov is not going to get. Its record rev the last couple of years was do manily from capital gain taxes. We now have capital losses. Which means that the fed gov will come up very short next year. Most likely a couple 100 billion short. Obama nor McCain will be able to do any of their programs. the red in the budget may break the government. There is a real possibility that the US gov could default on its loans. Agentina all over again.
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 12:08 AM
Spirit of 1776 on September 20, 2008 at 12:04 AM
What’s our recourse for the Federal Reserve?
Judicial activism at SCOTUS?
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:09 AM
If only we could convince enough of the uneducated and unwashed of these simple truths by election day, there’d be a good chance of actually doing something about it.
Can anyone imagine a McCain/ Palin administration with a Republican Congress? The remaining Dems would not stand a chance.
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:10 AM
So Chuck Schumer is still trying to gin up a financial panic here in the USA? What a swell guy that Chuckles is.
funky chicken on September 20, 2008 at 12:14 AM
Damiano, the name differences are irrelevant. See Article VII. They could be called states, commonwealths, and balloons, but when they signed that they were contracted together as States. Article IV, Section 3 makes clear that the new states entered in with the same understanding.
Spirit of 1776 on September 20, 2008 at 12:14 AM
Let Schumer speak – after all – he’s been in congress for how many years?
The More Schumer talks the purpler New York becomes
According to a poll – he’s already alienated the strong financial and political block of the hebrews
Now he’s going to alienate all those left wall street boarding school types – small in number big in donations
just let him talk
EricPWJohnson on September 20, 2008 at 12:15 AM
Like everything else, the mobilization of public opinion.
National Banks have been altered before. Hell, Jackson ran on that very plan.
And judicial activism is a shame. Not new in our day, but a huge problem. That means winning the Presidency and he/she putting good folk in.
Spirit of 1776 on September 20, 2008 at 12:16 AM
Whomever get’s elected is going to have a hell of a time dealing with the debt. God forbid we have any wars that escalate.
First order of business needs to be slashing spending across the board, with the exception of military. Ease restrictions for the next 5 years on energy production and get drilling going.
The best news I heard last week was that Russia’s economy tanked far worse than ours, so that will hopefully quell some of their ambitions for a while. If we can keep Iran down to a low roar and Israel from going nuts, hopefully we can manage what’s left on the table while we rebuild at home.
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:16 AM
I think this is interesting. I wonder why Bloomberg would do a story about Kerry and Pelosi losing money. The amounts they lost were a drop in the bucket for them. Perhaps to head off any speculation that they might have encouraged the exploitation of market weaknesses as a last ditch effort to throw the election to Obama?
I’m also curious about the articles that AP posted. I wonder if Paulson et al. went to Congress to scare the crap out of them and call the Dems on their game.
Pelosi, Kerry May Share Investor Pain as AIG Stakes Evaporate
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 12:17 AM
You seriously believe that?
Spirit of 1776 on September 20, 2008 at 12:08 AM
What I believe (to be more serious) is that the types that join the military would be demoralized if made to pacify a people ready to defend it’s right to independence against a monolithic, globalist, and wayward class of politicians.
Im sad at the very thought. Perhaps a better way is to storm the Bastille.
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:18 AM
hey, I think I’m feeling “in danger” of losing a house to foreclosure. Can I have my check now? Tomorrow works too.
Really, this is just democrats trying to scare people before an election. They’ve done it for years, and it hasn’t worked all that well before. Instead of trying something new, they are just turning up the volume and hysteria. Yawn.
Why on earth Mitch McConnell seems so eager to jump on their bandwagon, I can’t quite fathom.
funky chicken on September 20, 2008 at 12:19 AM
You’re right. I just recall something on the state level that had something to do with how certain states were admitted to the union. The Constitution is pretty straightforward, but there are other agreements in play.
I am just too ignorant on the details of the topic to be able to hold an intelligent conversation on it, so I bow to your superior knowledge and googling.
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:20 AM
A couple of years ago, my best friend’s sister moved to Phoenix with only prospects of a job, no savings, and disastrous credit, and bought a house, paying 20% over (then) market price, nothing down. I told her that was beyond stupid…even if she got the job she was hoping for, she couldn’t make the principal-free payments. I think she did make 2 payments, then it went into foreclosure.
Yes, she is stupid. But the mortgage banks were supposed to be the experts. It’s their job to so “no”. There’s a reason poor people don’t own homes. THEY’RE POOR!
Rangle’s Utopian vision may be nice while he sits in his jaccuzzi sipping martinis while sandwiched between a couple of middle aged hookers, but there’s a reason rich people can afford more stuff, and poor people cannot. And poor people will always covet what the rich have. And that is called (Beuller? Beuller? Anyone?) motivation! Take that away, guarantee equal results regardless of effort, eliminate value, and what do you have? A crater.
stonemeister on September 20, 2008 at 12:21 AM
The British Crown disagreed and presented its argument at the muzzel of a rifle.
The world of political theory is one thing: in it all is perfect and operates perfectly.
Reality, on the other hand, is a messy bit of business. The Federal government long ago stepped on the 10th amendment. Today it is all but forgotten. If Obama takes the White House, the Constitution will soon become an afterthought.
Would you propose that we acquiesce to tyranny for no reason other than the fact it cloaks itself in the trappings of a representative republic? I think not, sir, and for my part I shall consider myself privileged and honored to raise arms against such a beast.
Another passage:
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
ManlyRash on September 20, 2008 at 12:21 AM
re: demoralization. I absolutely agree as the military has shown itself to be a great incubator of American values.
Spirit of 1776 on September 20, 2008 at 12:21 AM
Don’t insult yourself. You are/were having an intelligent conversation on it.
Spirit of 1776 on September 20, 2008 at 12:22 AM
by “in cash” do you mean stacks of currency in a safe or a savings account?
Janos Hunyadi on September 20, 2008 at 12:23 AM
There are 5 repo houses in my small (upscale, gated) neighborhood right now. The banks are playing cutesie still–refusing to drop the prices to a level where they could unload them, and when somebody does go to contract, the bank slow rolls the deal out for a couple of months.
The banks just want to feds to bail them out, IMHO, instead of just unloading these properties. Sorry, but I’m not going to panic and run down and pull all my cash out of my bank account or drain my Vanguard things. It’s quite sad that bastards like Chuckles Schumer think traumatizing people for political gain is a way for him to get lucky.
funky chicken on September 20, 2008 at 12:25 AM
I’m also curious about the articles that AP posted. I wonder if Paulson et al. went to Congress to scare the crap out of them and call the Dems on their game.
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 12:17 AM
I’m taking the Pelosi, etc. bits as nothing but fluff pieces.
As far as Paulson et al., I’ve got to say that I am proud of Bush on this one. He got the team on it lickety spit and held them accountable for results. Then he held Congress’ nuts to the fire and said go along or pay the price.
Too bad the media is too busy with bash the caricature that they made of Bush, because he’s been on this even better than he was on 9/11.
We can argue about the methods and choices, but the fact remains that on Monday we were down HUGE and ended up being up by closing bell on Friday.
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:25 AM
Sounds good in theory, but I’m getting tired of waiting for the public to read the Constitution, and the Declaration, and embrace it in a spiritual, as well as, cerebral way.
I guess global warming, materialism, and dancing with the stars is more important.
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:26 AM
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:16 AM
don’t forget the recent decline in oil price is not a good thing for Iran. I agree the Fed gov needs to cut spending quick. they also need to refinance their debt into 30, 40 and 50 year T bills at these low interest rates. The money they save on interest would be huge. they may also need to cut some benifits and raise some taxes.
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 12:28 AM
Alan Greenspan quotes
Others have noted that this has been a long time coming…
The catalyst to lending to high risk borrowers…
Duh!
The coming storm…
Duh – squared
and finally,
Warning signs were there long before… like 911, everyone was asleep at the switch.
Kini on September 20, 2008 at 12:28 AM
Don’t ask from whom the bell tolls, free markets. It tolls for thee.
VolMagic on September 20, 2008 at 12:29 AM
Expediency. Want to reassert the power of the states? Run for state office and then reject the conditional federal funding for highways etc. The states and fed are so closely wed together now by funding, but it’s been a process of choice.
Of course they disagreed, that’s why we had to fight. But the moral and legal authority was ours. Without those, I don’t think the Revolution would have got off the ground, much less succeeded.
What tyranny are you refering to? Previously you were discussing ideological differences between red and blue, now you are talking tyranny. Please explain what you mean.
Same with “trappings”. Do you mean our elections?
Spirit of 1776 on September 20, 2008 at 12:29 AM
Janos Hunyadi on September 20, 2008 at 12:23 AM
I mean in my stock account and in some money market accounts. Both are insured. about as safe as you can get without hiding in under the bed. Plus if the dems and rep get there crap together and move on the bailout I will be able to invest in the coming rally. we could see Dow 11,750 before the election. I think if BHO wins I will get out of the market all the way and hide what I got. Dow 7,000 in a year if BHO is elected.
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Agree. Monday morning will be telling.
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 12:32 AM
On that, I’m pouring myself a brandy.
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:33 AM
Fine fix our “leaders” have gotten America into if the only thing that will save us is an avalanche of more heaping helpings of socialism. Maybe someone should take a time out and ask The People if they really want to go to from a mostly capitalist economy to a socialist economy and do it almost overnight
KentAllard on September 20, 2008 at 12:34 AM
Don’t ask from whom the bell tolls, free markets. It tolls for thee.
VolMagic on September 20, 2008 at 12:29 AM
the fed bailout is probably the only thing that could help the free market survive. depressions are very very bad for free markets but great for socialism.
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 12:34 AM
aka- USSR
The thing is that I agree with the good intentions of Democrats. I had underestimated the gap between rich and poor until I saw it first hand. It’s nice to talk about the American Dream, but if you’re born into a family that has nothing and is living in a box; with the way things are now you’re likely going to be in that box till you die.
We don’t live in the land of out parents and grandparent anymore where you could go to work as a secretary and end up owning the place.
What the Democrats neglect is the fact that it’s their policies that have lead to this problem. Like I’ve mentioned, I had 3 S-Corps. The problem was less about 3/4 of my start up costs were in taxes, filings and other regulatory demands. Most businesses that fail due so because of either tax or regulatory compliance issues… usually dismissed as financial mismanagement.
Thanks to the Dems, the days of opening and expanding a lemonade stand are over, since the average person would get fined out of business by simply not knowing what taxes they were supposed to pay or what licenses they needed.
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:35 AM
I do not want to promote either Bill Maher or Andrew Sullivan now, for obvious reasons. But Real Time was really strange tonight in a strangely positive way. In response idiotic socialist crap from some chick named Naomi Klein–Andrew Sullivan almost became a conservative again. Then Sully switched back with a McCain Palin attack. Then Maher went on a rant about religion. Then Sully switched back again. It was like watching a gay version of Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde or the Hulk–except Sully switched back and forth between leftist and conservative.
But, know hope.
The panelists all acknowledged that if Obama is not leading by 5-7% by November 4, he will lose. They said it was racism, but could it possibly be policy-ism? Plus they don’t know how to deal with it, they all had a different attack plan and they all contradicted each other. They are scared. McCain and Palin really have them shaken. I liked that part.
Mr. Joe on September 20, 2008 at 12:36 AM
Okay, thanks for the info. I was going to buy Euros ( actual purple-orange ugly-money ) but don’t see that as much of a ‘haven’
By that definition, I’ve been ‘all cash’ for a while, partly because I’ve been waiting for real estate to bottom out and partly due to High Anxiety & Indecision
But if This Sh+t is as bad as some are implying / suggesting, even money market savings accounts at the local credit union are at risk
Janos Hunyadi on September 20, 2008 at 12:37 AM
You have got to come to grips with the fact that very few of your fellow Americans could ever even hope to be even a hundredth of the Manly Man that you are Manly Man. Even I am in awe of your manliness.
PootyPoot on September 20, 2008 at 12:40 AM
Janos Hunyadi on September 20, 2008 at 12:37 AM
Yes there is a risk. the money market is in my 401k so I can’t take it out. Kind of got the most secure I can get.
Ira also in money market again can’t take it out. thinking of buying some ETF’s like oil and gasoline or maybe gold. Not sure depends on Mon and Tues trading. Stock account is in cash cna withdraw it in about 5 mins. a stock account is insured by the SIPC so the money is backed by the gov like FDIC. Not to worried about it unless the entire system fails which if it does the dollar won’t be worth anything anyways sooo.
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 12:41 AM
I apologize for not being more definitive, Spirit. It is late where I live (NJ) and I am very tired. I refer, of course, to a future (and, therefore, speculative) time. My scenario, therefore, assumes a set of circumstances that does not presently exist. The idea of secession that I have set forth for the purposes of conversation this evening is predicated upon political circumstances that, in my humble opinion, are so intolerable as to admit of no other alternative.
If I have not done so already, I would like to thank you for this wonderful conversation. Rather a shame we are not in a Philadelphia tavern sipping beer.
This, indeed , is a moment that separates us from our simian KosKidz brethren.
ManlyRash on September 20, 2008 at 12:42 AM
Are Bernanke and Paulson just giving cover to Dodd, Obama and every other member of congress filthy with legal bribes from financial institutions so that they can start the half billion dollar Christmas from Uncle Sam?
snaggletoothie on September 20, 2008 at 12:43 AM
This is no exaggeration. I remember the days when a child’s lemonade stand was a normal day in the life.
Today, it would be shut down within a few hours.
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:43 AM
Yes. Next question.
ManlyRash on September 20, 2008 at 12:44 AM
It’s no problem, I just didn’t follow you and I wanted to understand. Thanks for clarification. I don’t at all wish to downplay things, I am concerned for my country as I know you are.
My thanks to you, I’ve enjoyed it. And “indeed” to the beer thought. All the best to you, and night all.
Spirit of 1776 on September 20, 2008 at 12:45 AM
I am going to inject my own take on Manly’s statements.
Hypothetical situation:
Deranged crazy guy gets elected President and is backed by and equally deranged and crazy Congress. Everything from the US military to the IRS is controlled and regulated by an Iron Fist. Both branches back each other up, effectively squashing citizen demands for impeachment or other recourse. The way Congressional elections are staggered prevents voting in a suitably majority in a reasonable length of time to “vote the bums out”.
Are the citizens to sit idly by for 4-6 years?
Or worse- the corrupt branches vote themselves extended term limits or repeal term limits and terms all together.
What happens then?
My point is that the day that government ceases to accurately represent the will of the people, that government no longer has legal authority under the Constitution, correct?
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:47 AM
Who, pray tell, will bail out the Fed?
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:47 AM
We should keep our nuclear waste and instead export Congress to third world countries for burial.
Then the markets can work like they should and will free to fix the excesses in the economy without meddling by Econ 101 dropouts.
Problem solved!
landlines on September 20, 2008 at 12:47 AM
+1
funky chicken on September 20, 2008 at 12:49 AM
Ummm, that would be us…
Kini on September 20, 2008 at 12:51 AM
I don’t believe that is correct.
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:52 AM
Kini on September 20, 2008 at 12:51 AM
I hope you realize that was rhetoric?
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:52 AM
Who, pray tell, will bail out the Fed?
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:47 AM
Well if you look at the bail out you see it is a very good deal for taxpayers. The AIG loan of 85 billion is at libor plus 8.5% or around 11.5% return on investment plus an 80% stake in the compnay. that in the industry is called a sweet deal of a life time. The gov got it which means the taxpayers got that deal.
the massive bailout that we are talking about is the gov taking bad paper but the way CDO’s and SIV’s are formed means that within each CDO’ds there may only be one or two no paying loans and the rest are fine. Which since most mortages are for 30 years will give the gov a steady stream of income for the next 30 years if the FEd and gov decide to keep the loans after the crisis is over. So like the S&L bailout and the chysler bailout the gov may come out on top. do not forget that the gov are buying these assets at the rock bottom when eberyone else is selling them in fear. Buy at the bottom sell at the top. The gov being the borrower of last resort by default always buys at the bottom.
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 12:53 AM
OMG… completely OT, but ya’ll had to see this:
Obama Releases Official Soundtrack Album
Yup. We’ve officially gone off the deep end in fallen into the vast pit of the cult of personality.
Ladies and Gentlemen, 2008 has given us the first official American Idol election.
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:54 AM
I believe that would be covered under the claims made in the first two paragraphs of the DOI. (If I understand your question, anyway).
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:55 AM
Something tells me that when push coms to shove…we’ll be on the same side of the fence – wherever and whenever that is.
Good night, my friend. Good Night, Damiano. Good night, Lucy.
ManlyRash on September 20, 2008 at 12:55 AM
You have to admit that Texas seceding from the Union would be the most fascinating novel/movie in a long time.
Would Bush come out of retirement to be the next President of the Republic of Texas? Would Dick Armey accept the veep spot? How would Ron Paul fit in? Ann Richards? Kay Bailey Hutchison? Dallas Cowboys stay in the NFC East? Who would play the Robert E. Lee character who resigns his commission in the Army, comes home secretly in the night to accept his new commission as General of the Army of Texas at a ceremony at the Alamo in San Antonio?
Dynamite! It’s too bad I’m conservative. They’d never listen to my great movie ideas in Hollywood :(
Good night HA. And thanks to all for an excellent site.
Sapwolf on September 20, 2008 at 12:57 AM
Question:
It was my understanding the intention of the AIG bail out was to allow AIG to sell off it’s assets and sink slowly into oblivion without taking the rest of the world down with the ship.
So my question is that, if this is the case, no matter how sweet the deal, we have essentially purchased nothing but bad debt, no?
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:58 AM
Had more than my share of what you’re going through right now. This is the best thing to ever happen to you. Your first mistake was tying yourself to someone who would even concider voting for one so demonstrably inexperienced as obambi. I know. I’ve done it. More than once. School of Hard Knocks is the most effective learning institution there is.
Imagine how you’d have felt if he’d stayed hidden and those businesses had soared and succeeded, and he’d decided to take away the money then.
At least you know now.
My bet is that you’re successful inside a year. Trust yourself. Rely on others as little as possible. Be as competent as you are humanly capable.
The Texas economy is last in the nation to slow down and first to pick up. Been here almost 30 years. We are on our way back up.
If we can keep the marxists from taking power over all three branches of our government in November, there will be prosperity. Even with McC. Hopefully Palin will help him on the economic side of things, and definitely on the kicking to the curb of every corrupt individual of ANY party.
The marxists will have been rejected and will have become the object of ridicule they should’ve quite a while back, and probably the msm as well. Capitalism will ramp back up and those that are willing to work for it will succeed. Those that don’t, won’t. Just like always.
The people bitching on the left about the economy being so bad are those who have an alergy to hard work, persistance, and responsibility and are parasites to the society they live in, producing nothing but discord.
I’m pulling for you and will say a word to the Big Guy on your behalf.
techno_barbarian on September 20, 2008 at 12:58 AM
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 12:53 AM
I’m no economist, but this sounds like shoveling sand against the tide.
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 12:59 AM
Sapwolf on September 20, 2008 at 12:57 AM
If I have anything to do with it, Ron Paul will be elected “Village Idiot” and relegated the duty of being the target of rotten fruit and rude children.
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 1:01 AM
Yup…. but it was too good not to pass up.
At first glance, maybe, but we, the taxpayers will have to foot the bill anyway (some of it at least). Plus, with partial gov ownership means a layer of bureaucracy yet to deal with… and subject to the political winds. It still stinks.
Kini on September 20, 2008 at 1:03 AM
You’d think that if Chuckie and Company were truly shaken by this news they would finally get their snouts out of the trough. They won’t.
Patrick S on September 20, 2008 at 1:06 AM
My hope is that the world economy is just too big to let the US economy tank: There is too much cash worldwide, too much willingness to assume risk and seek profit. We;re not in 1929 any more…………
The One Big Possible Wrench which could kill us all is a ‘freeze’ in the flow of funds from borrowers to lenders. My money is in a credit union which recently became a bank; if they can’t loan it, they can’t pay me interest–or maybe can’t even give me back what I put on deposit
Nothing is ‘backed’ any more by gold or silver or big trunks of rubies and emeralds. It’s all “Trust”, and if Trust freezes the Whole Flow, then
“Game over, man. We’re all gonna die, man”
Janos Hunyadi on September 20, 2008 at 1:06 AM
What a load of crap. When I was selling computers, I used to have nightmares about the day when nobody would need a new one.
The WORST case scenario is that the lenders and creditors don’t get paid. They go out of business. BUT new loans and credit will still be available, because there will still be DEMAND. New companies.
Of course this will mean some foreign banks will not get paid. So we’ll tell ‘em to bite it. What are they going to do? Threaten not to sell us stuff for our Wal-Marts?
The mortgage scam business is not the only industry. It is HIGH time it gets cleaned out. Builders of new houses have been getting SCREWED since the 80’s.
If Paulson and Bernanke thought some fake sweat was the best way to cut through the vile Democrat partisanship, fine. Remember these are the same folks worried about “Global Warming”.
Agrippa2k on September 20, 2008 at 1:07 AM
Question:
It was my understanding the intention of the AIG bail out was to allow AIG to sell off it’s assets and sink slowly into oblivion without taking the rest of the world down with the ship.
So my question is that, if this is the case, no matter how sweet the deal, we have essentially purchased nothing but bad debt, no?
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 12:58 AM
No. the AIg deal was a bridge loan. It basically said that AIG could borrow upto 485 billion from the fed if needed. If it does that it will be required to pay the loan back at libor plus 8.5%. During this time AIG is to sell its assets to raise capital to be able to manage the its books and pay its accounts payable. The gov took 805 of the stock of AIg as a down payment to make sure it complies. No if the Fed is going to bailout the entire system that means AIG can sell its bad loans to the gov. Raise the capital and buy back its shares.
I am not 100% sure on the later and will have to study it more but that was the gist I got form the news releases.
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 1:08 AM
Agrippa2k on September 20, 2008 at 1:07 AM
since the majority of large companies borrows money to met payroll and other short term expenses like accounts payable at low rates. what happens to every worker in America when their company can nnot borrow money for a couple weeks or a month until these “new business” comes into being, what happens to their homes, credit scores etc when the paycheck doesn’t arrive? That is what a credit crunch means. No borrowing short or long term. the entire system freezes and by the time it thaws millions are our of work, unemployed, behind on payments which causes a second wavew of credit crunch at the retail level which causes stores to close not buy new inventory ect which leads to the third wave and recession/depression.
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 1:12 AM
At first glance, maybe, but we, the taxpayers will have to foot the bill anyway (some of it at least). Plus, with partial gov ownership means a layer of bureaucracy yet to deal with… and subject to the political winds. It still stinks.
Kini on September 20, 2008 at 1:03 AM
while ther eis risk for taxayer to “make good” on the loans most our home loans so non paying loans means most likely the US gov will own alot of homes in the next year. the taxpayer will if anything be on the hook for upkeep, fixing up to be able to sell etc. Of course the risk of political games be paid is high. but in the end the taxpayers should get back more then they paid.
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 1:14 AM
Janos Hunyadi on September 20, 2008 at 1:06 AM
yeah at that point I become a farmer. and loving gun holder
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 1:16 AM
Well, if “unseen” is correct, if we lien AIG’s assets, somehow this all goes away.
Sorry unseen
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 1:17 AM
FIFY
Exactly, this is the real fear. That will spill over into every form of credit lending if not handled right. The ripple effect.
Kini on September 20, 2008 at 1:18 AM
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 1:17 AM
no problem. The beauty of a credit crisis is it goes away if the cause is taken away. In this case bad debt. Take that away on no more credit criss and back to 2-3% GDP growth. Aslo you take the forclosed properties off the market which the gov can do now and home prices stop their freefall.
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 1:21 AM
Exactly, this is the real fear. That will spill over into every form of credit lending if not handled right. The ripple effect.
Kini on September 20, 2008 at 1:18 AM
that includes credit cards. imagine if every retailer stopped taking credit cards on Mon.
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 1:22 AM
I’m ignorant, but I sense a little bit of hyperbole.
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 1:27 AM
Health Care System for homes. This is exactly what the taxpayer doesn’t need to be burdened with. Why should it be our (tax) responsibility to maintain the care and upkeep of someone else’s property?
Is that risk we really want to leave to the politicians? There is a danger of this getting too much government control. We all know the government has a hard enough time managing their own business.
Kini on September 20, 2008 at 1:29 AM
Does Ace think the world is going to end on Monday?
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 1:30 AM
Man, I hate being the cynic.
BUT:
I don’t see what you’re saying as taking the cause away, so much as trying to affect the effect.
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 1:30 AM
Which is why I don’t use credit cards.
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 1:31 AM
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 1:31 AM
Just exactly what do you think cash is?
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 1:35 AM
If you have ‘Encore’ channel on cable–”Aliens” with Hudson “Game over, man. We’re all gonna die, man” is on now
As another Clinton Legacy, the Chicoms look willing and able to buy up lots of assets at fire sale prices
Janos Hunyadi on September 20, 2008 at 1:35 AM
But business, and being able to do business, with cards is what makes part of the economy run. We cannot carry wads of cash when traveling on business. Besides, who can afford cash anymore. :)
Borrowing and lending is essential to growth of the economy, with out it, we will have a problem.
Kini on September 20, 2008 at 1:36 AM
Point taken.
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 1:37 AM
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 1:37 AM
Phewwwwwww.
I thought I was about to be smacked by someone whose comments I always enjoy.
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 1:39 AM
True, but credit cards also lend themselves to over-confidence and often, irresponsibility.
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 1:40 AM
By this braintrust of comments…. Paleeeseee!!!
~_^
Kini on September 20, 2008 at 1:41 AM
don’t see what you’re saying as taking the cause away, so much as trying to affect the effect.
Saltysam on September 20, 2008 at 1:30 AM
The cause is fear. Fear of bad debt. you take the threat of getting stuck with bad debt away and you remove the fear which will enable leanders to lend without fear of not getting their money back. The market and economy can be boiled down to greed and fear. right now Fear is king. Let greed enter the picture again and see what happens..
unseen on September 20, 2008 at 1:41 AM
Nah….there are only a few people I’ve ever smacked at HA. ;)
well..and then there’s “what’s it all about” alphie?
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 1:43 AM
I just noticed he was linking. I’m a sitemeter addict.
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 1:44 AM
Correct, which is why you see all those reduce you debt commercials.
However, I think the majority of the American people practice good financial judgment. Else we’d be a third world country of sorts.
I too have cards, but if I don’t have the cash in the bank, then I don’t use the card. {Of course there are exceptions}
You bring up a good point though… most of the younger card users can’t even balance their own check book.
Kini on September 20, 2008 at 1:46 AM
Or vote intelligently…;)
Connie on September 20, 2008 at 1:50 AM
Maybe now it’ll become obvious we can’t afford liberalism no one ever could or ever will.
Speakup on September 20, 2008 at 1:59 AM
Heck, most younger folks don’t know what a checkbook is, much less how to balance it.
And voting…
I’ve always been a fan of the old, ” I used to be a Democrat and then I grew up and became a Republican”. Being a Democrat makes sense when mom and dad pay all your bills for you and the only thing you are responsible for is the key run on Friday.
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 1:59 AM
and the only thing you are responsible for is the
keykeg run on Friday.Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 1:59 AM
Damiano on September 20, 2008 at 2:00 AM
and Y2K.
But unseen, now I’m pissed. The government even gets good dibs on the bargains. And Warren Buffet has been on quite a shopping spree the last couple of days, right? I guess he loves a sale as much as I do.
/:-)
RuPaul for president! He loves to shop too! And he won’t make me haul around stupid gold certificates, or a wagon to hold the actual gold.
funky chicken on September 20, 2008 at 2:00 AM
Jericho!
OldEnglish on September 20, 2008 at 2:00 AM
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