Quote of the day
posted at 10:20 pm on September 18, 2008 by Allahpundit
“At the same time, and perhaps with even more consequence, the center of political conservatism was moving ever west. Through such figures as Goldwater and Reagan, the American West was transformed into the vital center of the conservative impulse. Though the primacy of the East Coast conservatives remained, the status quo could not last. As conservatism absorbed heartland influences, it began changing to a more individualistic, more libertarian, more religious, and more American form. Almost unacknowledged, the division between American western conservatism and the European-influenced northeastern variety became deeper and wider with every year.
And at last (as was inevitable) a candidate appeared who embodied that division, a candidate with no connection to coterie conservatism, a candidate wholly of heartland America, a candidate who was as much a challenge to traditional conservatives as she was to the left.
And so isolated had the Northeast Corridor conservatives become, so deeply embedded in their Jamesian parallel universe (which can best be pictured as kind of a conservative version of the old Steinberg New Yorker cover, with E.35th St. and Allen Jay Lerner’s townhouse looming as the center of the earth while, off on the horizon, we see a dot labeled, ‘Nascar races’), that they couldn’t recognize her clear conservative stance, couldn’t recognize her personal courage, couldn’t, in the end, be bothered to stand with her when she and her family were victimized by the most repellent political attack of our epoch…
The Northeastern urban conservatives must find some way to connect with the rest of the country. If not, they’ll end up much like the ‘conservatism’ expressed by Andrew Sullivan (whose main outlet, it should be noted, is a European paper) – obsessive, strange, and isolated, existing in dream world with no connection or influence to anything else.”
Blowback
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Plenty are doing it for her then. Didn’t she call that religious version of Dr. Phil guy with complaints of unfair and unjust attacks and mean spirited criticism with her asking him to start paying for her?
MB4 on September 18, 2008 at 11:41 PM
J.R. Dunn
American Thinker
Deserves more attention. The old East vs. new West.
The European tradition lends hope in moving WEST.
It’s high time that the West bears sway.
maverick muse on September 18, 2008 at 11:42 PM
Those who can, do. Those who can’t, teach. Or, they write about something.
Of course, the greatest Americans tended to be able to do all three, but some could not. Some of the greatest Americans were just typical people who rose to greatness when it was needed. It’s amazing how much good you can find in common people, when you don’t look down your nose at them. Just as a brief example, one might consider common folks like these.
Loxodonta on September 18, 2008 at 11:43 PM
Anyone who has seen Burn After Reading will recoginze John Malkovich’s as a Northeast Corridor conservative (his Princeton education, bow-tie, enunciation, etc). He’s also an impotent drunk who has lost his job and whose wife is cheating on him. He contains a lot of repressed rage, not unlike the frustation demonstrated by ernesto in this thread, that comes spilling out at the end. He rails against the “idiocy of today.” His time has past, and he knows it.
Swampfox on September 18, 2008 at 11:44 PM
lexhamfox:
Sullivan? As in Andrew? As in voting for Obama? Please.
Tonight Sarah Palin mentioned that one of the people she most admired was Maggie Thatcher. I guess no one told her that she was too religious to admire a British conservative.
Terrye on September 18, 2008 at 11:44 PM
So why does what other people do matter? Some weak-kneed R’s wanted Bush to pull out of Iraq, I don’t blame GW for that.
And the Dr. Phil thing – you are wrong. He called her, she returned the call, which is considerate especially Saddleforum started Mac’s 2nd resurgence. He was just trying to butt into the limelight. No story there to support your thesis, I’m afraid.
Spirit of 1776 on September 18, 2008 at 11:45 PM
Speaking as a heartland conservative, from the birthplace of the “progressive” movement, Madison, Wisconsin, your attitude just summed up the truth of that article. So we’re all average failures, huh? Way to show that you don’t have loathing for people who aren’t from your neighborhood.
I’ve pointed this out with other posters before. Southern conservatives have been called hicks, as have midwesterners. You’re infected by the bigotry of the likes of the Kennedies. What, 9/11 happened in your backyard, so you have some sort of special license to be more afraid of terrorism? People in Chicago or Houston or Denver have nothing to be afraid of? Hell, Chicago currently has more gun murders per day than goddamn Baghdad!
Your rant is duly noted as proving the point. Thanks. Have a nice day.
MadisonConservative on September 18, 2008 at 11:45 PM
There are a significant portion of Truthers, yes, I suppose that’s an accurate statement.
Spirit of 1776 on September 18, 2008 at 11:46 PM
Those eastern, blue nose repubs were such a pain. Guys like Ike, Dick Nixon & Jerry Ford, New Englanders all.
Mark30339 on September 18, 2008 at 11:46 PM
Plenty. Too much for most folks around here, including you towards the head of that list. How many Al Gore or John Kerry or John Edwards or Teddy Kennedy or John McCain or George Bush satire parodies did you ever write? What do you ever do except ad hominems when someone says something you don’t like?
MB4 on September 18, 2008 at 11:47 PM
Something the Heartland is good for?
The beginning of the atomic bomb project began at U. Chicago.
CP1 – you can look it up.
MSimon on September 18, 2008 at 11:47 PM
Here is the perfect summary for everyone. Someone posted this in another thread. Maybe it’ll help.
And ask. Would Tom Brady have stopped?
lorien1973 on September 18, 2008 at 11:47 PM
MB4:
That is absurd. Sarah Palin has taken a lot of crap, some of vicious, some of it directed at her kids, a lot of it personal. And I have never heard her whine.
BTW, why is it the only conservatives you like are dead and not around to actually run for office?
No one is good enough for you are they? 90% of Republicans support this ticket, but you are holding out for the dead people.
Terrye on September 18, 2008 at 11:48 PM
healing
maverick muse on September 18, 2008 at 11:48 PM
Jeffrey Bell addressed this in “Populism & Elitism”, published by Regnery in 1992
“In modern mass democracy, elites exist; they multiply as society becomes richer and more complex. Each elite has its own pattern of belief; taken together, they represent the elite opinion stream.
“In the 1960s, it was clear that this elite-based opinion stream was moving in conflict with the popular-based opinion stream. In 1960, student polls of the 8 Ivy League campuses found majorities for Nixon of six of eight major campaign issues.
“By 1968, Humphrey won overwhelmingly on the Ivy League campuses over the same Republican nominee, Richard Nixon. On some campuses, Nixon won fewer votes that did minor-party candidates. Meanwhile, the nation was swinging narrowly Republican.
“Popular opinion does not always have a leaning toward populism, and elite opinion does not always lean towards elitism. The argument begtween populism and elitism is a disagreement about the competence of people to handle their own affairs, and not a form of class conflict. The argument between elitism and populism is usually one of practicality rather than of moral absolutes.”
The Republican Party since its inception in 1854 has been an uneasy coalition between its ‘populist’ and ‘elitist’ wings, with populists being disproportionally from the Wests ( Illinois was a Western state in the late 1850s, and Lincoln was a Westerner; Greeley and Seward were Easties )
Some things change, but other IMPORTANT things never do: our Party has two wheels and needs both of them, but steers right / populist or left / elitist depending on who is in charge and at the wheel.
Right now, Mc Cain is a Westerner who is maybe Too Thick with the Easties while Palin is totally, wonderfully West
Jim Morrison, deranged & debauched & drugged as he was, said it simply and to the point not long before he passed:
“The West is the Best”
Janos Hunyadi on September 18, 2008 at 11:48 PM
As a fellow midwesterner who grew up near (but not in) Madison, and on behalf of my apparent underachieving, uncultured Wisconsinite father who was wounded in action on Iwo Jima, I thank you.
capitalist piglet on September 18, 2008 at 11:49 PM
MB4:
Well iIam not as smart as you. Sorry. But then again I do not pretend that I am smarter than McCain or Palin either. So no, I don’t write satire. Sadly, I am just a sheeple.
Terrye on September 18, 2008 at 11:50 PM
MadisonConservative on September 18, 2008 at 11:50 PM
Is ernesto serious? He can’t be. No one is that obtuse.
Seriously ernesto, why are “small town values” NOT a positive quality?
csdeven on September 18, 2008 at 11:50 PM
Depends if they had a good looking daughter with them. Har. Seriously, though, I was impressed by that story. Thought he’d gone mad with the JS stuff.
Spirit of 1776 on September 18, 2008 at 11:50 PM
Dammit:
Wait…you just effectively called the heartland a bunch of worthless hicks, and you claim that WE’RE doing the pigeonholing?
Take your intellectual dishonesty and shove it where your head is.
MadisonConservative on September 18, 2008 at 11:51 PM
On your Least Smartest Day, Terrye, you are smarter than MB4, who does little more than toss in short irrelveant quotes and write sing-song nonsense verse
Don’t ever back down from a poseur like him
Janos Hunyadi on September 18, 2008 at 11:52 PM
lol.
Weak-kneed R’s like Chuck Hagel who’s military record makes GW’s look like he stayed home during war time, which actually he did?
MB4 on September 18, 2008 at 11:52 PM
If you support something, then alter you plan for political expedience, then yes. If Hagel was against Iraq from the beginning then no. Point remains.
Spirit of 1776 on September 18, 2008 at 11:54 PM
You know, I’ve now lost interest due to the fact that I can’t tell the difference between you and Thomas Frank.
MadisonConservative on September 18, 2008 at 11:54 PM
Ernesto,
Don’t ever sneer at the good and brave folks of the heartland. They are all that stand between us and the left coast. God bless them everyone.
Laura in Maryland on September 18, 2008 at 11:57 PM
True. And if Hagel wanted to make a difference he would have pushed the surge plan instead of insisting on retreat and defeat.
Was Hagel infantry? If so, he forgot all his training.
csdeven on September 18, 2008 at 11:58 PM
MB4:
Oh please, there are all kinds of conservatives with strong military records who did not take Hagel’s stand and instead wanted to see success in Iraq.
Compare Hagel’s record to McCain’s as far as that is concerned.
That is a cheap shot. I somehow doubt Barry Goldwater would have approved of that.
Terrye on September 18, 2008 at 11:58 PM
All hail fly over country and their meat shield personalities!
LOL
lorien1973 on September 18, 2008 at 11:59 PM
And isn’t it disturbing that there appear to be conservatives out there with that kind of latent contempt?
MadisonConservative on September 18, 2008 at 11:59 PM
And besides, Bush was in the Air National Guard. He could have been activated. Ronald Reagan stayed stateside. Bush’s dad was shot out of the sky and very nearly died.
This is so stupid.
The war is very nearly won and we are still doing this crap.
Terrye on September 19, 2008 at 12:00 AM
Madison:
Yes, it is sad.
Terrye on September 19, 2008 at 12:01 AM
And I heard that Hagel might be tapped to be Oslima’s SecDef if he is elected.
Nice company yer keeping there Chucky.
csdeven on September 19, 2008 at 12:02 AM
OK, genius see if you can do something like this. I would be amazed if you could.
Able to guzzle more energy than dozens of normal men! Producing more hot air than a locomotive! Able to pile up carbon credits higher than a tall building in a single bound!!!
Look UP in the sky! It’s ChickenLittle! It’s FlyingSnakeOilSalesman! It’s the Sultan of Hanging Chads! It’s the Ayatollah of Heat! No, it’s CarbonMan in a private jet painted green! And now following in the tradition of other great men such as Jimmy Carter and Yasir Arafat, he is the proud recipient of a Nobel Prize!!!
CarbonMan, strange visitor from an alternate reality who came to Earth with claims and scary predictions far beyond those of mortal men, disguised as Fat Albert, and now joined by other members of the Royal Green League such as BioFuelHummerMan, EcoCleaningWoman, and his latest recruits, the molding geriatrics JuanGreenOldCoot and HolyGreenOldJoe, they all fight a never ending battle for science-fiction, hypocrisy, big-money-making-scams and the Hollywood way!
or how about this
John Kerry’s not so secret any longer MySpace entry:
Hi there fellow bloggers. My name is United States Senator John Forbes Kerry from the great state of Massachusetts. You can call me JFK if you want. I was born on December 11, 1943, although people tell me that I look at least 20 years younger. It’s probably my great hair and rugged good looks.
I graduated from Yale in June 1966 in the top 1% of my class. To earn extra money during the summers, I loaded trucks in a grocery warehouse and sold encyclopedias door to door. That is probably one of the reasons that I am so humble. Over my four years at Yale, I maintained a 96 grade average and received a 101 average in my senior year.
I am one of the most senior members of that grand and much loved and respected institution known as the U.S. Senate. Probably the only living Senator even a little bit greater than me is my dear friend Ted Moore Kennedy. I also have a very high IQ. Very high. At least 250 on a bad day. Much higher than that creep who stole the election from me. I know that he stole it because exit polls are never ever wrong.
I am also a great war hero. I set all kinds of records for heroism when I was in Vietnam. I was grievously wounded at least three times yet continued to insist on staying in the fight when lesser men would have given up. I won the bronze star with extra V’s for extra valor and the Silver Star for defeating a whole battalion of NVA with my bare hands.
Sometimes I feel like a had to carry all the water for those other ungrateful swiftboaters.
I sometimes like to chill out after a long day of serving the American people by having a double martini with my good friend Ted. We usually have a servant bring 21 double martinis. I get one and Ted gets one for each of his fingers and each of his toes. Contrary to what some of my very few enemies say I never marry women for just their money. They must also have a pulse. BTW, did I mention that I was in Vietnam? I was also in Cambodia, so don’t forget that!
I would like to think that I am open minded, honest, polite, heroic and trustworthy. And I appreciate the same qualities in others although I am realistic enough to know that no one else could come close to me.
Turn offs: other politicians who spend more on haircuts than I do. That is just not right.
Who I’d like to meet:
…other progressive bloggers. Other great war heroes who hate that damn S-T-U-P-I-D Texan in the White House and those lying sons of bitcher swiftboat bastardos whose pants are on fire! Cool people who live close to Washington D.C. so that we can get together, talk about you for about 30 seconds and then spend about 9 hours talking about me. BTW, did I mention that I was in Vietnam and Cambodia? Just one more BTW, if anyone has found my magic hat please return to me.
Come up with something better than this, and this is just a very small sample, or you can crawl back into you infantile name calling ad hominem hole as far as I care, Janos.
MB4 on September 19, 2008 at 12:02 AM
+1
Loxodonta on September 19, 2008 at 12:02 AM
And naturally that means she is.
Oy.
There are times that I am actually ashamed to be college educated. I can be quite arrogant, I will gladly admit. However, to have that kind of intellectual elitism is just mind-boggling, especially considering that the idea is usually the first thing we say we hate about OBAMA.
MadisonConservative on September 19, 2008 at 12:02 AM
That is perhaps the best thing I’ve read in years. I’m going to frame that. This is a re-alignment year. Things are changing in so many ways. This is change we can believe in.
D0WNT0WN on September 19, 2008 at 12:03 AM
OK, genius see if you can do something like this. I would be amazed if you could.
Able to guzzle more energy than dozens of normal men! Producing more hot air than a locomotive! Able to pile up carbon credits higher than a tall building in a single bound!!!
Look UP in the sky! It’s ChickenLittle! It’s FlyingSnakeOilSalesman! It’s the Sultan of Hanging Chads! It’s the Ayatollah of Heat! No, it’s CarbonMan in a private jet painted green! And now following in the tradition of other great men such as Jimmy Carter and Yasir Arafat, he is the proud recipient of a Nobel Prize!!!
CarbonMan, strange visitor from an alternate reality who came to Earth with claims and scary predictions far beyond those of mortal men, disguised as Fat Albert, and now joined by other members of the Royal Green League such as BioFuelHummerMan, EcoCleaningWoman, and his latest recruits, the molding geriatrics JuanGreenOldCoot and HolyGreenOldJoe, they all fight a never ending battle for science-fiction, hypocrisy, big-money-making-scams and the Hollywood way!
or how about this
John Kerry’s not so secret any longer MySpace entry:
Hi there fellow bloggers. My name is United States Senator John Forbes Kerry from the great state of Massachusetts. You can call me JFK if you want. I was born on December 11, 1943, although people tell me that I look at least 20 years younger. It’s probably my great hair and rugged good looks.
I graduated from Yale in June 1966 in the top 1% of my class. To earn extra money during the summers, I loaded trucks in a grocery warehouse and sold encyclopedias door to door. That is probably one of the reasons that I am so humble. Over my four years at Yale, I maintained a 96 grade average and received a 101 average in my senior year.
I am one of the most senior members of that grand and much loved and respected institution known as the U.S. Senate. Probably the only living Senator even a little bit greater than me is my dear friend Ted Moore Kennedy. I also have a very high IQ. Very high. At least 250 on a bad day. Much higher than that creep who stole the election from me. I know that he stole it because exit polls are never ever wrong.
I am also a great war hero. I set all kinds of records for heroism when I was in Vietnam. I was grievously wounded at least three times yet continued to insist on staying in the fight when lesser men would have given up. I won the bronze star with extra V’s for extra valor and the Silver Star for defeating a whole battalion of NVA with my bare hands.
Sometimes I feel like a had to carry all the water for those other ungrateful swiftboaters.
I sometimes like to chill out after a long day of serving the American people by having a double martini with my good friend Ted. We usually have a servant bring 21 double martinis. I get one and Ted gets one for each of his fingers and each of his toes. Contrary to what some of my very few enemies say I never marry women for just their money. They must also have a pulse. BTW, did I mention that I was in Vietnam? I was also in Cambodia, so don’t forget that!
I would like to think that I am open minded, honest, polite, heroic and trustworthy. And I appreciate the same qualities in others although I am realistic enough to know that no one else could come close to me.
Turn offs: other politicians who spend more on haircuts than I do. That is just not right.
Who I’d like to meet:
…other progressive bloggers. Other great war heroes who hate that damn S-T-U-P-I-D Texan in the White House and those lying sons of #bitcher swiftboat bastardos whose pants are on fire! Cool people who live close to Washington D.C. so that we can get together, talk about you for about 30 seconds and then spend about 9 hours talking about me. BTW, did I mention that I was in Vietnam and Cambodia? Just one more BTW, if anyone has found my magic hat please return to me.
Come up with something better than this, and this is just a very small sample, or you can crawl back into you infantile name calling ad hominem hole as far as I care, Janos.
MB4 on September 19, 2008 at 12:04 AM
I am finding it amusing that in the course of your rant against the people of the heartland, you are showing the very traits that are disconnecting some of the conservative elite from the remainder of the party.
Regressive as opposed to Progressive? I am afraid that someone besides conservatives has already claimed the title of Progressive. What is regressive about the values of God, Country, and Family? In order for a society to exist, you need stability. In the history of the United States, that stability has been based upon love of God, Country, and Family.
As for a thick headed world view, my family, in the last 3 generations, has traveled across most of the world. Service in the Army, Navy, and Marines will do that. I would venture that story is not uncommon for people from the Heartland. While we have not dined with the cosmopolitan continental elite, we have worked with and spent time with the common people from all over the world. We have seen their world view, and given them ours. I know this story is repeated all over the heartland, as that is where a good bulk of our military has come from, as others have stated. We might not have your jolie vie, but we do okay.
Logic in arguments? The Heartland produces its fair share of intellectual thought. In my family alone, we have had Senators, Lawyers, Ministers, Doctors, Scientists, and more. It is an intellectual fallacy and disrespectful to imply that logical thought is only found outside the Heartland of America.
To be honest, you are actually parroting a common type of thought that is found amongst many of the liberal elite. Only they are capable of thinking for the “white trash” and it is their duty to save the unwashed masses from themselves. Perhaps until you have had a chance to experience life outside of your ivory tower of elitism, you might want to temper your bias.
coyoterex on September 19, 2008 at 12:04 AM
I agree. Either way this election turns out. Politics as we know it is totally re-aligned.
Republicans are the party of main street. We just need to find a candidate who can make people want main street again.
lorien1973 on September 19, 2008 at 12:06 AM
More libertarian and more religious? Huh?
RightOFLeft on September 19, 2008 at 12:08 AM
OK, genius see if you can do something like this. I would be amazed if you could.
Able to guzzle more energy than dozens of normal men! Producing more hot air than a locomotive! Able to pile up carbon credits higher than a tall building in a single bound!!!
Look UP in the sky! It’s ChickenLittle! It’s FlyingSnakeOilSalesman! It’s the Sultan of Hanging Chads! It’s the Ayatollah of Heat! No, it’s CarbonMan in a private jet painted green! And now following in the tradition of other great men such as Jimmy Carter and Yasir Arafat, he is the proud recipient of a Nobel Prize!!!
CarbonMan, strange visitor from an alternate reality who came to Earth with claims and scary predictions far beyond those of mortal men, disguised as Fat Albert, and now joined by other members of the Royal Green League such as BioFuelHummerMan, EcoCleaningWoman, and his latest recruits, the molding geriatrics JuanGreenOldCoot and HolyGreenOldJoe, they all fight a never ending battle for science-fiction, hypocrisy, big-money-making-scams and the Hollywood way!
or how about this
John Kerry’s not so secret any longer MySpace entry:
Hi there fellow bloggers. My name is United States Senator John Forbes Kerry from the great state of Massachusetts. You can call me JFK if you want. I was born on December 11, 1943, although people tell me that I look at least 20 years younger. It’s probably my great hair and rugged good looks.
I graduated from Yale in June 1966 in the top 1% of my class. To earn extra money during the summers, I loaded trucks in a grocery warehouse and sold encyclopedias door to door. That is probably one of the reasons that I am so humble. Over my four years at Yale, I maintained a 96 grade average and received a 101 average in my senior year.
I am one of the most senior members of that grand and much loved and respected institution known as the U.S. Senate. Probably the only living Senator even a little bit greater than me is my dear friend Ted Moore Kennedy. I also have a very high IQ. Very high. At least 250 on a bad day. Much higher than that creep who stole the election from me. I know that he stole it because exit polls are never ever wrong.
I am also a great war hero. I set all kinds of records for heroism when I was in Vietnam. I was grievously wounded at least three times yet continued to insist on staying in the fight when lesser men would have given up. I won the bronze star with extra V’s for extra valor and the Silver Star for defeating a whole battalion of NVA with my bare hands.
Sometimes I feel like a had to carry all the water for those other ungrateful swiftboaters.
I sometimes like to chill out after a long day of serving the American people by having a double martini with my good friend Ted. We usually have a servant bring 21 double martinis. I get one and Ted gets one for each of his fingers and each of his toes. Contrary to what some of my very few enemies say I never marry women for just their money. They must also have a pulse. BTW, did I mention that I was in Vietnam? I was also in Cambodia, so don’t forget that!
I would like to think that I am open minded, honest, polite, heroic and trustworthy. And I appreciate the same qualities in others although I am realistic enough to know that no one else could come close to me.
Turn offs: other politicians who spend more on haircuts than I do. That is just not right.
Who I’d like to meet:
…other progressive bloggers. Other great war heroes who hate that damn S-T-U-P-I-D Texan in the White House and those lying sons of #itcher swiftboat bastardos whose pants are on fire! Cool people who live close to Washington D.C. so that we can get together, talk about you for about 30 seconds and then spend about 9 hours talking about me. BTW, did I mention that I was in Vietnam and Cambodia? Just one more BTW, if anyone has found my magic hat please return to me.
Come up with something better than this, and this is just a very small sample, or you can crawl back into you infantile name calling ad hominem hole as far as I care, Janos.
MB4 on September 19, 2008 at 12:09 AM
RightofLeft:
They are not mutually exclusive.
Terrye on September 19, 2008 at 12:10 AM
Being religious does not imply that you want to push those beliefs on others, politically.
lorien1973 on September 19, 2008 at 12:10 AM
What’s is logical about that succession of bigoted notions and unwarranted assumptions? It appear that Mr.(?) Dunn was right on target.
baldilocks on September 19, 2008 at 12:12 AM
Yes, the two actually go together quite well. I have my religion, you have yours, and we never try to force it on anyone.
If you don’t bother me I could care less what where you worship or don’t, what you do in you’re bedroom, or don’t, what color your skin is – don’t bug me and I won’t bug you.
Extremely Western viewpoints.
trailboss on September 19, 2008 at 12:13 AM
MB4:
Go run yourself. Go ahead. Be the next Barry Goldwater. If that is what you want. Just jump right in there. That is what Sarah Palin did and you have made it plain enough that she is not up to snuff. So. go. do. it.
Terrye on September 19, 2008 at 12:13 AM
Men are so emotional!
baldilocks on September 19, 2008 at 12:14 AM
Could you expand on that, just a bit?
trailboss on September 19, 2008 at 12:15 AM
Ladies & gentlemen, tonight you get two Freak Shows for the price of one. Sad, isn’t it?
Janos Hunyadi on September 19, 2008 at 12:16 AM
You don’t have to have traveled all over the world to know what people are like.
You don’t have to have a doctoral degree to be wise.
Loxodonta on September 19, 2008 at 12:16 AM
You need to take someone else to task, mom, before taking me to task about “cheap shots” if you think that was a cheap shot as it was just in response to this -
MB4 on September 19, 2008 at 12:16 AM
That seems to be another sticking point. Atheist conservatives seem to be awfully hostile to Christian conservatives. Obviously, dips like Huckabee and our resident SaintOaf make that possible, but they seem to apply it to the Bible Belt as a whole. Yet another division.
Being an agnostic, I am hereby ready for attacks from both sides.
MadisonConservative on September 19, 2008 at 12:17 AM
How dare you!
Stop making me laugh!
Loxodonta on September 19, 2008 at 12:18 AM
Since when does military status automatically make a man not weak-kneed later in life? Kerry? Murtha? Hello?
MadisonConservative on September 19, 2008 at 12:19 AM
Consider yourself attacked from my side.
trailboss on September 19, 2008 at 12:19 AM
Atheists are hostile, generally. I think because they feel like they are oppressed and need to lash out.
Being godless spawns of satan has got to be rough on ya, ya know? ;)
lorien1973 on September 19, 2008 at 12:21 AM
I completely agree, but then what does the writer mean when he says that conservatism has become more religious – rather than saying that conservatives have become more religious? (which isn’t even true to begin with)
RightOFLeft on September 19, 2008 at 12:21 AM
I think it is great that Palin admires M Thatcher. Unfortunately, Palin is not anything like the Margaret Thatcher herself. Thatch had an excellent grasp of facts and the global situation of her time. Palin is a populist muppet sideshow in a US election. She needs coaching to pass even the most modest stress test.
The debate over which part of the country is more conservative is a waste of time. Lorian takes pot shots at San Francisco saying that the Middle class has fled and the streets are quiet apart from the shuffling army of homeless… what crap. The sounds of a busy nightlife are coming through my windows right now and the city is busy and vibrant with professionals out having a good time. Despite the politics, San Francisco remains a hub of commerce and the entrepreneurial spirit is stronger here than in most parts of the US. That may be why property prices and rents continue to rise in the city by the Bay. I can’t think of any part of the US which does not have something valuable to offer to the country as a whole and the only people I look down on are those who think otherwise. Genuine conservatives abound throughout the US and some of them, like Sullivan, will be voting for Obama. Is anyone really going to advocate seriously that the last 8yrs America has had a Conservative as President? How can that be given the current balance sheet?
lexhamfox on September 19, 2008 at 12:24 AM
I thought I just said it. Just because you are religious, doesn’t mean you have to go against libertarian principles and push that on others.
If your question is of wording, I think you are reading it as “people become religious as a result of being conservatives” when it really means that “conservatism has adopted religious people (or vice versa) because of similar beliefs”
lorien1973 on September 19, 2008 at 12:25 AM
Which side is that? I want to keep count.
As much as I love Hitch to death, on religion he’s positively a dickhead to the faithful. Dawkins is extremely arrogant, but I can tell when he talks that he does feel pity more rather than contempt. That makes quite a difference, because one indicates misanthropy more than the other.
MadisonConservative on September 19, 2008 at 12:26 AM
Good stuff, for the most part.
Although Russel Kirk as a “Northeast Corridor conservative” is just plain daft, as is the idea that Buckley was anything but that.
It’s the Buckley wing of the GOP that looks down on the heartland. It’s National Review that is based in New York and Washington, and that has internalized the liberal attacks on conservatism.
flenser on September 19, 2008 at 12:27 AM
I see the Deep Thinkers are in our midst again.
flenser on September 19, 2008 at 12:29 AM
Conservatives and religious folk tend to be ‘anchored’ to something, to tradition, to proven principles, to a good way of life not in need of constant change.
‘Progressives’ seem rootless, always looking for the next big thing, and think of the past as a useless guide to the future. I think it’s why so many fail to learn the lessons of history.
trailboss on September 19, 2008 at 12:31 AM
No genuine conservative will vote for Obama. They may not vote for McCain, but they won’t vote for Obama.
Sullivan is about as “conservative” as Bill Clinton.
flenser on September 19, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Why, MB, you’re a regular Tolstoy! I didn’t realize that we were in the presence of greatness. Guffaw!! Snort!!
hillbillyjim on September 19, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Bingo. It’s the heartland conservatives who want republicans to fight back. It’s the eastern conservatives who want to play nice so they’ll get invited to wine tastings.
lorien1973 on September 19, 2008 at 12:32 AM
Reminds me of a funny link I’ll have to track down.
flenser on September 19, 2008 at 12:33 AM
Doesn’t it also seem like a lot of these eastern conservatives are scoffing at “An American Carol”? Many have expressed verbal eye-rolling at the idea, and are planning no support for it. Now, won’t this movie appeal to heartlanders? The irony is that, by their spurning, they are helping to undermine the first real movement to crack the liberal dome over Hollywood. Andrew Breitbart seems to be one of the only dissenters.
MadisonConservative on September 19, 2008 at 12:35 AM
Buckley was a MidAtlantic conservative. New York and Northeastern types are a whole different breed. We look down on everyone and each other, but in an easy-going, not too serious way. Oh, and without the weird accents.
Laura in Maryland on September 19, 2008 at 12:37 AM
It may be hard to believe, nowdays, but the word “libertarian” does not actually mean “hostile to religion”. And religion is not hostile to liberty. American notions of liberty originated with religious thinkers.
flenser on September 19, 2008 at 12:37 AM
I’m rolling my eyes at it too, but I generally hate movies with an apparent agenda going into it. I might netflix it, though.
lorien1973 on September 19, 2008 at 12:37 AM
good point. The ‘heartland brand’ of conservative ideology is a state of mind influenced–but not totally restricted– by geographical location.
Teddy Roosevelt is a classic example: Obviously a rich boy from New York, he spent as much time as he could in the West, and totally identified both himself and his political ideas as Western. His nemesis, Taft, was from Ohio but was an Eastie at heart.
Lincoln was a man of the West whose years in Washington never changed his basic views of man or society; the same is true of Reagan, of course….
Janos Hunyadi on September 19, 2008 at 12:38 AM
If Buckley was not a Northesatern type, it’s hard to think of who was. And if the current NR writers are not New Yorkers, what are they? They think like New Yorkers. That’s why they were able to persuade themselves that Rudy Giuliani would make a great (Republican) President.
flenser on September 19, 2008 at 12:40 AM
Crack the liberal dome over Hollywood and you’ll find a radical liberal tent just underneath. One more step down and you’ll find the PETA headquarters.
trailboss on September 19, 2008 at 12:41 AM
My question is about meaning. Conservatism is a set of ideals for proper governance. What is the practical effect if those ideals have become more religious? It isn’t libertarianism.
RightOFLeft on September 19, 2008 at 12:42 AM
Putting food in your worthless carcass?
And what IS it with you libtards and proper spelling and punctation? Do you have all have broken shift keys?
flenser on September 19, 2008 at 12:45 AM
Had to do some “to do’s” for a while. Hope no one missed me too much.
Define expand, cowboy.
MB4 on September 19, 2008 at 12:46 AM
Something people are going to realize at some point is that it’s going to become very difficult to continue the debate about the Heartland vs Northeast Libs or the Left Coast or the Bible Belt for too much longer.
People move. The urban/suburban/rural cultural and political demographics haven’t changed tremendously, but areas of the country are changing.
And Andrew Sullivan is not a conservative.
Connie on September 19, 2008 at 12:46 AM
No, they’re located in Virginia. They have one of the only buildings in this nation which I would not shed a single tear to see blown up. It would be nice to see happen to them that which they refuse to condemn happening to research and medical laboratories.
MadisonConservative on September 19, 2008 at 12:47 AM
I missed that. I must be slipping.
MB4 on September 19, 2008 at 12:48 AM
Of course not. It does, however, mean “indifferent to religion politically”. So how can conservatism, which is allegedly a political philosophy, become both more religious and more indifferent to religion?
RightOFLeft on September 19, 2008 at 12:48 AM
lexhamfox on September 18, 2008 at 11:41 PM
Like it or not our founding documents were based on “Creator”, so this isn’t new. Besides being a nut, Andrew Sullivan is very proud of the fact that he is a devout Catholic.
Cindy Munford on September 19, 2008 at 12:50 AM
By “it” I assume you mean libertarianism. Perhaps, but it’s a weakness if so.
Conservatism is not indifferent to religion though, and never has been. Another flaw in the article is mixing up conservatism with the Republican Party. The former has always had a religious tinge to it. The latter only gained it when it became a conservative party with Reagan.
flenser on September 19, 2008 at 12:52 AM
I thought PETA was bought by Pam Anderson in a failed attempt to revive her stirling career.
I can hardly wait for the one-of-a-kind Ingrid Newkirk leather coat she has promised the world.
trailboss on September 19, 2008 at 12:52 AM
Saying “retreat and defeat” is just like the left with their Al Gore’s “Global Warming”, which Juan is a big follower of, saying “deniers”. Same show, just under a different tent.
Very much so and at the height of RVN, not later when I was there, and I think that he remembers it and field experience very well.
MB4 on September 19, 2008 at 12:54 AM
The whole article is incoherent enough; finding problems with it is like trying to spot a fishbone in a landfill; I couldn’t blame you if you missed one.
RightOFLeft on September 19, 2008 at 12:55 AM
hillbillyjim on September 19, 2008 at 12:56 AM
Wasn’t Buckley’s father a “colorful” Texas wildcatter?
Ernesto: Running air conditioning full time, my electric bill for my home (in Texas) last month was about $200.00.
Re Harriet Miers: I have had the great privilege to know and work with Harriet. She would have been a reliable and smart conservative voice on the Supreme Court, besides being just an admirable human being.
MB4: I say this in all sincerity–You strike me as a romantic and idealist turned cynical with disappointment. I’m sorry for whatever has disillusioned you.
texette on September 19, 2008 at 12:56 AM
‘Expand,’ as in could you possibly take up more time and space with that self-aggrandizing lesson on how not to make friends and influence sentient beings.
trailboss on September 19, 2008 at 12:57 AM
I just ripped the semi-colon key off my keyboard, and I’m not putting it back until I learn to actually use a semicolon correctly.
RightOFLeft on September 19, 2008 at 12:59 AM
Assumes “facts” not in evidence, but hang the defeatist cut-and-run coward anyway.
Actually coming from Nebraska, I would think that “political expedience” would have pushed mostly the other way if anything. But I can’t read his mind so I don’t know for sure.
MB4 on September 19, 2008 at 12:59 AM
If Hagel opposed the Iraq war from a conservative prespective, I’d respect him. But let’s be blunt here – the man’s a liberal.
flenser on September 19, 2008 at 1:02 AM
hillbillyjim on September 19, 2008 at 12:56 AM
That’s what I was trying to say. He says it right out loud though. He finds so little comfort in anything anymore I wouldn’t want rain on his parade.
Cindy Munford on September 19, 2008 at 1:02 AM
I didn’t assume facts. You are the one that named Hagel as the face of my point. I was referring in general to the conversations that were reported on the Hill about trying to negotiate time-table etc b/c they thought Bush’s plan wasn’t viable. (Which didn’t, needed surge obviously).
Spirit of 1776 on September 19, 2008 at 1:03 AM
You’re right; Buckley did have the funny accent that would make him fit in with the NE crowd, and Rudy has an east coast appeal.
I was a Rudy girl in the beginning with major MDS and had to put on a clothespin for McCain. The more I got to know the guy (the memoir helped), the better I liked him. McCain won me over before Palin, and now I am overjoyed with the ticket.
Thank God cooler heads with better values than mine prevailed. Score one for the heartland, but we still have better tomatoes in MD.
Laura in Maryland on September 19, 2008 at 1:05 AM
I see that someone released 2 of my LONG “duplicate” comments that had been trapped by the censor software for using a “bad word” the first two times. I hate it when that happens. Usually they just stay “trapped”.
MB4 on September 19, 2008 at 1:06 AM
The more those who call it “fly over land” keep flying over the better. Don’t land, please.
The worst thing that has happened in the mountain west in the last 20 years has been California becoming less “live-able”. One benefit of the bursting housing bubble has been that it’s slowed down the immigration rate.
rockhead on September 19, 2008 at 1:08 AM
Long.
trailboss on September 19, 2008 at 1:08 AM
I can’t do that. I am 5’2″ tall and weigh 350 pounds and have a nose like W.C. Fields.
MB4 on September 19, 2008 at 1:10 AM
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