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McCain, Palin on economy: It’s time for some real reform

posted at 2:40 pm on September 15, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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John McCain got back to policy today, as events forced both campaigns to pay attention to the continuing and deepening crisis in the financial sector today. McCain lashed out at the “greed and corruption” on Wall Street and Washington in his town-hall appearance today, and promised real reform, but took care to note that the Ameirican spirit of entrepeneurship remained fundamentally sound:

I’d like to just mention a couple of things to you, and first of all a little straight talk. As you well know, we are seeing tremendous upheaval on Wall Street. The American economy is in a crisis. It is in a crisis. People tonight will be sitting around the kitchen table, trying to figure out how they’re going to stay in their homes, how they’re going to keep their jobs, how they’re going to put food on the table. And America is in a crisis today. Unemployment is on the rise, and our financial markets are in turmoil. People are concerned about our economic future. But let me say something, the economic crisis is not the fault of the American people.

Our workers are the most innovative, the hardest-working, the best-skilled, most productive, most competitive in the world. That’s the American worker. And my opponents may disagree, but those fundamentals — the American worker and their innovation, their entrepreneurship, the small business, those are the fundamentals of America, and I think they’re strong. But they are being threatened today. Those fundamentals are being threatened today because of the greed and corruption that some engaged in on Wall Street, and we have got to fix it. And we have got to reform the way that they do business. And frankly my friends, our workers have been the strength of our economy, and they remain the strength of our economy today. And those fundamentals are threatened, they are threatened and at risk because some on Wall Street have treated Wall Street like a casino. So, we’re going to fix it. And their efforts are not being matched at the top. From Washin gton to Wall Street, the top of our economy is broken.

We’ve seen self-interest, greed, irresponsibility, and corruption undermine these hardworking American people. We’re going to put an end to the abuses in Washington and on Wall Street that have resulted in a crisis that we are seeing unfold today.

Enough is enough. Enough is enough. We’re going to reform the way that Wall Street does business and put an end to the greed that has driven our markets into chaos. We’ll stop multimillion-dollar payouts to CEOs that have broken the public trust.

And we’ll put an end, as I said, to running Wall Street like a casino. We’ll make businesses work for the benefit of their shareholders and their employees, and we’ll make sure that your savings, IRAs, 401k and pensions are protected.

Barack Obama blamed the crisis on the management of the Bush administration, and it did occur on their watch, but the blame can get spread out to Congress as well.  The cheap credit and lack of oversight occurred on the watch of both parties, with Senate Banking Committee chair Chris Dodd (D-CT) taking sweetheart loan deals from one of the major players in the collapse, as well as a few of his Democratic colleagues.  It looks as if the lobbyists and big players co-opted all of the oversight mechanisms in Washington, and enough blame exists to share between Democrats and Republicans.

The candidate who comes up with an easily understood solution will win the confidence of voters unsettled by the instability.  Fortunately, the markets reacted rationally today, at least thus far, understanding that the economy itself hasn’t been badly damaged — yet.  The reaction by the government could do more harm than good, and apparently the markets have appreciated the laissez-faire attitude taken in regards to private companies that blow themselves up with bad risk-taking decisions.

McCain gets off to a good start, focusing his efforts on the lack of oversight enabled by the lobbying efforts from the financial sector.  He continues to exude optimism and promises a robust effort to force players to stick to the rules.  We need to hear more specifics, but what we don’t need are plans to take capital out of the system at a time when we need to reward honest risk-taking.

Palin also addressed this in Colorado today:

She gets a lot more specific about the reforms needed, and speaks with passion and conviction. Listen to the crowd response, and note the populist tone Palin uses to emphasize the need for reform. McCain should borrow a little from this.


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MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:15 PM

I see MB4, like Osama Obama, is using the first half of what McCain said and ignoring the meat: “”The fundamentals of our economy are still strong but these are very, very difficult times. I promise you we will never put America in this position again.”

Jim Geraghty comments on that at NRO.

He also points out that Obama, a lying sack of dung, has taken more money from Fannie and Freddie than anyone in Congress except Chris Dodd while ripping McCain for “lobbyist ties.”

If any of this stuff ever gets to mainstream America, Obama will be lucky to get 10% of the vote.

MrScribbler on September 15, 2008 at 3:28 PM

If John McCain thinks that the fundamentals of our economy are strong, why reform anything?

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:15 PM

Because he thinks they can be better?

MarkTheGreat on September 15, 2008 at 3:28 PM

Oil closed at under 99 dollars a barrel for the first time since June people.And yet I paid 3.99 a gallon for gas I swear they are making mad money right now off us.

tee866 on September 15, 2008 at 3:27 PM

There’s more than one “they.” How much of the $3.99 you paid was in taxes?

Y-not on September 15, 2008 at 3:29 PM

lorien1973 on September 15, 2008 at 3:05 PM
rockmom on September 15, 2008 at 3:06 PM
YellowDawg on September 15, 2008 at 3:07 PM
HoosierCon on September 15, 2008 at 3:08 PM
GulfCoastBamaFan on September 15, 2008 at 3:09 PM

Let’s hope neither McCain or Palin have anything more to say concerning Wall Street or the economy this week.

There’s a very good possibility they’ll actually really piss off the base, together…?

Oh no, say it ain’t so Mr Bill…!

J_Gocht on September 15, 2008 at 3:29 PM

The American economy is in a crisis. It is in a crisis. People tonight will be sitting around the kitchen table, trying to figure out how they’re going to stay in their homes, how they’re going to keep their jobs, how they’re going to put food on the table.

Does this mean that he is going to reduce legal immigration and enforce laws to reduce the presence of illegal aliens, since both compete with struggling American workers?

Here is a link to a HP software engineer who found an employment add from HP for his job after they laid him off.

DFCtomm on September 15, 2008 at 3:31 PM

Bingo. But then the banks/brokerage houses stopped caring and basically said wtf. They all fed at the trough. The new Sheriff better have a good economic posse.

JiangxiDad on September 15, 2008 at 3:04 PM

I fear it isn’t McCain–he has too much of a knee-jerk “government needs to step in” response to just about any problem you can name. Don’t like how campaigns are financed? Campaign finance reform! Can’t trust elected officials to have integrity? Restrict lobbyists! It just never seems to end with him. I hope this is Palin being a good partner on the ticket, rather than McCain “educating” her.

YellowDawg on September 15, 2008 at 3:13 PM

Thomas Sowell has also done a great job of explaining how governmental meddling caused this problem. Any time government wants to involve itself in anything other than defense, hold on to your wallet and expect it to be done far less efficiently than it would be by the private sector.

DrMagnolias on September 15, 2008 at 3:31 PM

Dammit. This isn’t conservatism, Sarah.

Ugh. Government wanting to regulate CEO pay?

lorien1973 on September 15, 2008 at 3:03 PM

No, not CEO pay, the golden parachutes they award themselves in taking a company to bankruptcy.
It isn’t fair to stockholders that an executive can bankrupt a company, bankrupt individual people, then walk away a millionaire.
Executives need to be held accountable (in public traded companies) to the public. Otherwise keep them private. Once public (it is the companies choice) then they fall under the security laws of the land.
Not of enough of the goons are held accountable, and not enough have faced prison.

right2bright on September 15, 2008 at 3:31 PM

Oil closed at under 99 dollars a barrel for the first time since June people.And yet I paid 3.99 a gallon for gas I swear they are making mad money right now off us.

tee866 on September 15, 2008 at 3:27 PM

That’s because of all the refineries that were knocked off-line by hurricane Ike. Something like 20% of the US’s refiningh capacity is in the Houston area.

I’ve read that the refineries were not damaged as badly as feared. The big problem now is restoring power and finding someplace for the workers to live.

MarkTheGreat on September 15, 2008 at 3:32 PM

women hold up lipstck at Palin rally in Golden, Colorado

scrubjay on September 15, 2008 at 3:09 PM

Thanks for the link to that great image.

Sarah Palin: Lipstick Power for the People!

Loxodonta on September 15, 2008 at 3:32 PM

OK MB, (ltns btw) when did McCain say that quote? What was it in reference too?

upinak on September 15, 2008 at 3:19 PM

Sounds like you have some doubt that he could say something so clueless just today. Frankly I might not have believed it before I heard it either.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:32 PM

RE: America in crisis.

No. It’s not. Lehman maxed out their credit cards, then rather than paying off those debts, went out and took on more debt.

Dylan Radigan made the point on CNBC this morning that Lehman was ‘leveraged’ (that means in debt) by a factor of 30-40 to one. In other words, for each dollar of asset, they were in debt to the tune 30-40 times that amount. Plus the ‘value’ of those assets were priced at the time they were purchased (i.e. inflated, over valued, hyped) when the housing market was at top dollar. When that debt was not being repaid, it had to be ‘repriced’, i.e. discounted, marked down in value. Result bankruptcy.

It is not America in crisis, it is not wall street in crisis, it is Lehman in bankruptcy.

rockhauler on September 15, 2008 at 3:33 PM

3,000 at a Florida rally today. About half what she got, but not bad for a Monday morning. Last month we would have been thrilled to hear he convinced 3,000 people to show up and hear him talk.

BadgerHawk on September 15, 2008 at 3:23 PM

That’s enough to convince me that she has brought in some folks who wouldn’t have paid much attention to him before. I’d say that there are a few who finally listened to him and liked what they heard.

Or it could be simple post-convention/pre-election interest taking hold, as it does in every election.

pugwriter on September 15, 2008 at 3:34 PM

Here is a link to a HP software engineer who found an employment add from HP for his job after they laid him off.

DFCtomm on September 15, 2008 at 3:31 PM

Happens all the time.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:34 PM

Ooo. McCain took Uh-bam-uh’s Enough quote.

That’s going to sting.

Enoxo on September 15, 2008 at 3:34 PM

J_Gocht on September 15, 2008 at 3:29 PM

I think you don’t understand most of the folks posting on this thread.

This might help.

A liberal tries to understand the Palin phenomenon

Judith Warner seems to be trying to get it.

In a meandering, unfocused piece in the NY Times, she tries to work through her confusion about Palinmania. Along the way, there is the usual condescension, barely contained.

But towards the end she seems to begin to understand something she may have never grasped before, and I applaud her for recognizing and at least grappling with it:

“Haidt has conducted research in which liberals and conservatives were asked to project themselves into the minds of their opponents and answer questions about their moral reasoning. Conservatives, he said, prove quite adept at thinking like liberals, but liberals are consistently incapable of understanding the conservative point of view. “

Y-not on September 15, 2008 at 3:35 PM

Thanks for the info Mark and right. The gov’t does not need to get involved at all like that. It’s amazing how people keep underestimating the greed of capitalist pigs like us :P You’d think they’d know that banks couldn’t care less what color someone is, as long as they got the green to pay.

I just want to be clear that when talking about oversight, I meant some sort of role like the SEC has.

YellowDawg on September 15, 2008 at 3:35 PM

Because he thinks they can be better? MarkTheGreat on September 15, 2008 at 3:28 PM

Who’s they?

Has John got somebody in his pocket…?

Considering her remarks concerning the economy and Wall Street today; we know it can’t be Sarah…!

J_Gocht on September 15, 2008 at 3:35 PM

Does this mean that he is going to reduce legal immigration and enforce laws to reduce the presence of illegal aliens, since both compete with struggling American workers?

DFCtomm on September 15, 2008 at 3:31 PM

I am “assuming” that was a rhetorical question as Juan McCain has made it clear that they are God’s children, so he could never do anything like that.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:36 PM

Y-not on September 15, 2008 at 3:29 PM

36.9 cents in Kentucky,but the “they” I meant was the gas station owners because they know people will pay it because we have before,I know they are worried about Hurricane Ike but I’m sorry it was only 3.69 on Friday.

tee866 on September 15, 2008 at 3:37 PM

I love Mac and Cheese (cake), but what’s next the 2 Americas speech?

hey maybe its time for some socially conservative, low-tax populism…you know, I think I’m okay with that!

Beats the heck out of the NEOCOMMs!

joepub on September 15, 2008 at 3:38 PM

OK folks, the Federal Reserve Board and Bank system is the one who regulates loans, and how banks operate… things such as how much debt they can carry, vs how much cash they have in reserve.

CONGRESS has limited oversite over the FED. They can ask questions, but because the FED is a semi private institution, where once you are on the board, you are pretty much on as long as you want… with the President nominating the Chairman, with Congress approving him/her.

Whole thing can be laid at the feet of the FED, with Congress too busy invetigating Bush, instead of doing their dang job.

Romeo13 on September 15, 2008 at 3:39 PM

It is not America in crisis, it is not wall street in crisis, it is Lehman in bankruptcy.

rockhauler on September 15, 2008 at 3:33 PM

Like there is no connection between “Wall Street” and America. I wonder if McCain believes that too.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:39 PM

MB4 (3:39)
Classic illustration of non sequitur. Thank you for that.

rockhauler on September 15, 2008 at 3:44 PM

This is EXACTLY what they both need to be saying. Yeah, you can spin the regulatory issues that they are talking about as leftist, but that ignores the existing regulatory and oversight structure. Reforming that structure is the real answer.

Government’s role in this is positive leadership and working with business to let the market sort itself out. Obama has taken the recycled blame game position (Bush/McCain/more of the same) and in a crisis like this, only the naive will buy into it.

I’m optimistic.

Damiano on September 15, 2008 at 3:44 PM

MB4, have you checked the status in OR, lately?

Entelechy on September 15, 2008 at 3:45 PM

“I think you don’t understand most of the folks posting on this thread… Y-not on September 15, 2008 at 3:35 PM

I’m not so certain I don’t understand the conservative heart.

J_Gocht on September 15, 2008 at 3:29 PM

Consider my post above; and all the empathy and concern I exhibit for the conservative “base”…!

Can’t you just feel the understanding and love…?
It’s meant to serve your best intrests.

J_Gocht on September 15, 2008 at 3:45 PM


Ugh. Government wanting to regulate CEO pay?

lorien1973 on September 15, 2008 at 3:03 PM

Pay them as much as you want, just don’t expect the government to bail you out when your cash a check that your a** can’t pay for.

Chakra Hammer on September 15, 2008 at 3:46 PM

I am as laissez-faire free-market as they come, but the main problem with Fannie and Freddie was that they were neither public nor private, but the worst possible mixture of the two. They were private enough that those running them could make huge profits in boom times, but they were still subsidized and backed by the government.

So Fannie and Freddie bought into lots of risky loans, where people didn’t worry about risk since the gubmint would bail them out. That needs to change–a bank is either completely private and allowed to go bust if it makes risky decisions, or if some lending institution is backed by taxpayers’ money, the government can regulate it. If a money manager has unlimited upside potential and no downside risk, he’ll get greedy and then stick the taxpayers with the bailout bill. No thanks–take risks all you like, but not with MY money!

One of the major problems of the sub-prime mess is that banks made adjustable-rate mortgages to unqualified buyers (who might qualify for the first-year teaser rate, but couldn’t pay the REAL interest rate), then sold the mortgages to other banks and investment houses who had no idea of the solvency of the borrowers. Possibly, one way of avoiding these problems in the future would be to prevent mortgages from being bought or sold unless the original lender goes bankrupt, or is bought out by a larger bank.

Capitalism is great, but the government needs to ensure that the game is played honestly, and that taxpayers don’t end up bailing out the greedy and the dishonest when their luck goes south. Sarah Palin is a good spokeswoman for this type of reform, since as Governor she fought the corruption of Big Oil on the natural-gas pipeline, and re-opened the contract to competitive bidding. Capitalism and energy development are fine with her, but she wants to keep it honest.

Steve Z on September 15, 2008 at 3:47 PM

Can’t you just feel the understanding and love…?
It’s meant to serve your best intrests.

J_Gocht on September 15, 2008 at 3:45 PM

You have great qualities. Faking it is not one of them. I’d rather that you don’t like us, and say so.

Entelechy on September 15, 2008 at 3:48 PM

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — The Federal Reserve added the most money Monday to the banking system since the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the wake of Lehman Brothers’ bankruptcy, Merrill Lynch’s demise and AIG’s need for cash. [I think they want 50 billion?]

The New York Fed added $70 billion in overnight repurchase agreements, known as repos. The central bank does a repo operation on almost every business day, but offered an unusually high amount today in light of the demand for reserves from banks and primary dealers.

In other words, more P-rozac cash and call me in the morning. No problemo, just print more money or put it on the grandkids tab.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:49 PM

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:49 PM

You are just a fountain of BS, aren’t you?

wise_man on September 15, 2008 at 3:50 PM

And just for grins? The members of the House Banking commitee… Barney Frank? Maxine Waters? (head of a subcommitee on HOUSING)… gee, no wonder our banks are a mess.

Barney Frank, Chairman, Massachusetts
Paul E. Kanjorski, Pennsylvania
Maxine Waters, California
Carolyn B. Maloney, New York
Luis Gutierrez, Illinois
Nydia Velázquez, New York
Mel Watt, North Carolina
Gary Ackerman, New York
Brad Sherman, California
Gregory W. Meeks, New York
Dennis Moore, Kansas
Michael Capuano, Massachusetts
Ruben Hinojosa, Texas
William Clay, Jr., Missouri
Carolyn McCarthy, New York
Joe Baca, California
Stephen Lynch, Massachusetts
Brad Miller, North Carolina
David Scott, Georgia
Al Green, Texas
Emanuel Cleaver, Missouri
Melissa Bean, Illinois
Gwen Moore, Wisconsin
Lincoln Davis, Tennessee
Paul Hodes, New Hampshire
Keith Ellison, Minnesota
Ron Klein, Florida
Tim Mahoney, Florida
Charlie Wilson, Ohio
Ed Perlmutter, Colorado
Chris Murphy, Connecticut
Joe Donnelly, Indiana
Bill Foster, Illinois
André Carson, Indiana
Jackie Speier, California
Don Cazayoux, Louisiana
Travis Childers, Mississippi
Spencer Bachus, Ranking Member, Alabama
Deborah D. Pryce, Ohio
Michael N. Castle, Delaware
Peter T. King, New York
Edward R. Royce, California
Frank Lucas, Oklahoma
Ron Paul, Texas
Steve LaTourette, Ohio
Donald Manzullo, Illinois
Walter B. Jones, North Carolina
Judy Biggert, Illinois
Christopher Shays, Connecticut
Gary Miller, California
Shelley Capito, West Virginia
Tom Feeney, Florida
Jeb Hensarling, Texas
Scott Garrett, New Jersey
Ginny Brown-Waite, Florida
James Barrett, South Carolina
Jim Gerlach, Pennsylvania
Steve Pearce, New Mexico
Randy Neugebauer, Texas
Tom Price, Georgia
Geoff Davis, Kentucky
Patrick McHenry, North Carolina
John Campbell, California
Adam Putnam, Florida
Michele Bachmann, Minnesota
Peter Roskam, Illinois
Kenny Marchant, Texas
Thad McCotter, Michigan
Kevin McCarthy, California
Dean Heller, Nevada

Romeo13 on September 15, 2008 at 3:50 PM

Pay them as much as you want, just don’t expect the government to bail you out when your cash a check that your a** can’t pay for.

Chakra Hammer on September 15, 2008 at 3:46 PM

Exactly. But that’s not what McCain or Palin are doing. They are saying Washington needs to set limits. As if CEO pay (or parachutes) are responsible for it. It’s not. It’s bad decisions brought about by bad government policies.

What needs to change is government giving incentives to businesses who engage in questionable business practices – credit cards to illegals, home loans to bad credit risks. Etc.

Let’s talk about that!

lorien1973 on September 15, 2008 at 3:52 PM

Romeo13 on September 15, 2008 at 3:39 PM

Congress is given the power to legislate banking law under the Interstate Commerce clause. That said, here is a paraphrased conversation between Wall Street and Capitol Hill, some 20 years (or so) ago:

Wall Street: Profits are up and we seem to have weathered the Oil Patch bust.

Capitol Hill: But you are not loaning money to people who can’t afford to borrow it.

Wall Street: Their credit ratings suggest that they represent a bad risk.

Capitol Hill: You are REDLINING!

Wall Street: We are managing our risk!

Capitol Hill: “There ought to be a law…”

Wall Street: If you want us to take on more risk, you have to pledge that we will get help when these loans go belly up.

Capitol Hill: Hmmm… Well, we’re up for reelection this year and we could use your support.

Wall Street: Would campaign contributions help? We have this PAC, you see.

Capitol Hill: Deal!

Wall Street: See you in ‘08.

GulfCoastBamaFan on September 15, 2008 at 3:53 PM

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — The collapse of Lehman Brothers and the sale of Merrill Lynch have left questions about the future of the last two major, independent Wall Street brokerage firms, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, experts said Monday.

Goldman shares dropped 14% to $132.39 in afternoon trading, while shares of Morgan Stanley declined 15% to $31.61.

Credit default swap spreads on Morgan Stanley rose 177 basis points to 452, while spreads on Goldman widened by 119 points to 317, according to New York-based Credit Derivatives Research.

The CDR Counterparty Risk Index, which tracks credit-default swaps on leading banks and brokerage firms, jumped 89 basis points, or 40%, to 305.4. That’s a record, CDR noted.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:54 PM

“Last month we would have been thrilled to hear he convinced 3,000 people to show up and hear him talk.
BadgerHawk on September 15, 2008 at 3:23 PM

Did you mean to write, 300…?

Or would that perhaps be on the optimistic side, B_H…?

J_Gocht on September 15, 2008 at 3:54 PM

MB4, check the OR status.

Entelechy on September 15, 2008 at 3:57 PM

You are just a fountain of BS, aren’t you?

wise_man on September 15, 2008 at 3:50 PM

Why don’t you go play some video game. Maybe you can understand that if it’s not too complicated.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:57 PM

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:54 PM

Did you forget about AIG…?

J_Gocht on September 15, 2008 at 3:58 PM

Swinging this back to issues related to this campaign, isn’t it rather queer that the two most recent spectacular financial failure events involve institutions that have heaped thousands of dollars on The One?

GulfCoastBamaFan on September 15, 2008 at 3:59 PM

McCain gets off to a good start, focusing his efforts on the lack of oversight enabled by the lobbying efforts from the financial sector. He continues to exude optimism and promises a robust effort to force players to stick to the rules. We need to hear more specifics, but what we don’t need are plans to take capital out of the system at a time when we need to reward honest risk-taking.

McCain is blaming the wrong people. The rules are an insult to the free market. This isn’t communist russia. The people to blame for these are the people that signed up for these loans. They need to be responsible for their own actions. It’s also the fault of the shareholders. They needed to bail out from these bad organisations. If shareholders and homeowners had acted rationally, we wouldn’t be here. No need for rules to fix that.

mycowardice on September 15, 2008 at 3:59 PM

“BUSH LIED, BANKS DIED!!!”

Wait, what???

pherrman on September 15, 2008 at 4:00 PM

There’s more than one “they.” How much of the $3.99 you paid was in taxes?

Y-not on September 15, 2008 at 3:29 PM

Well that is interesting.. but I still the highest of ALL for a gallon of gasoline. AND my State (Thank you Gov Palin) dropped their gas tax for a year.

So I payed as of yesterday… 4.17 a gallon. WHY IN THE HELL am I paying so DAMN much on GAS when my State is a Producing Oil State? We also have quite a few refinareries.

Why can I not find people whom like to drive up the prices when it becomes clear that some people are trying to get every red cent out of me and my State?

Can we say Tariffs? Can we say tax on Ethanol, TO A STATE OF THE UNITED STATES? Can we also say I am being fleeced via other items? Yep! Because the DEMS who are supposedly RUNNING the Government do not realize that they are choking a few States and that these States are getting tired of the BS!

upinak on September 15, 2008 at 4:00 PM

Here is a link to a HP software engineer who found an employment add from HP for his job after they laid him off.

DFCtomm on September 15, 2008 at 3:31 PM

And law firms give seminars to companies like HP and Microsoft on how to place advertisements that meet the minimum requirements of showing that they tried to recruit American workers before hiring foreigners. They coach companies on where to place the ads so that they won’t be seen by Americans who might be interested in applying for the jobs, and how to write the ads to make the jobs seem so unappealing that they’ll get few or no American applicants. Then the companies can hire the foreign workers they really want (at much lower salaries), and go testify in front of Congress about how we need more H1-B visas for tech workers because they can’t find enough qualified Americans. It’s a sickening racket, and McCain — with his garbage about how we need to import more skilled high-tech workers, is a big part of the problem.

AZCoyote on September 15, 2008 at 4:01 PM

MB4, check the OR status.

Entelechy on September 15, 2008 at 3:57 PM

You mean as in OR = Oregon, the birthplace of … … …me? Are they finally having a parade in my honor?

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 4:01 PM

OR, as in OR incoming news.

Entelechy on September 15, 2008 at 4:02 PM

Congress is given the power to legislate banking law under the Interstate Commerce clause.

GulfCoastBamaFan on September 15, 2008 at 3:53 PM

Actualy Congress gave the Federal Reserve Board and Banks the power to oversee banks years ago. There is a patchwork of oversite functions which were built in the 1930s, but the government itself has pretty much stayed out of banking allowing the FED to run it… until now…

Theres another dynamic thats under the Radar as well. As money is getting tighter INSURANCE companies are having problems finding funds to underwrite Houseing insurance…

My Sis is a high level VP in an insurance company, and with the recent losses due to hurricanes and such, they are having problems getting the money men to underwrite… its all going elsewhere…

So, next up? Insurance companies start to go under.

Romeo13 on September 15, 2008 at 4:03 PM

Entelechy on September 15, 2008 at 3:48 PM

Thanks Entelechy.

As for faking it; that’s something I don’t normally consider part of my repertoire.

J_Gocht on September 15, 2008 at 4:06 PM

For the readers of this thread who are not following this news story beyond the headlines, here is a Reuters story about the CEO of Lehman Richard Fuld’s decision to not sell assets at a discount (loss) to raise cash that would have kept Lehman in business.

Had he sold off assets at a loss, used the cash to reduce his debt load, and reduce his exposure to declining value of the assets in Lehman’s portfolio, there is the chance that Lehman would have avoided bankruptcy.

Instead, the remains of Lehman will feed the vulture capitalists who will pick over the remains, buying those assets at pennies on the dollar.

As an rockmom posted at (3:06) people are frightened by the headlines. The assets that Lehman is being forced to sell off, are not those 401k retirement funds. If you have Lehman stock in that retirement account you will lose that, but you do not lose the retirement account. Some other company will buy up the business of managing those accounts from Lehman at fire sale prices.

rockhauler on September 15, 2008 at 4:07 PM

We’re going to put an end to the abuses in Washington and on Wall Street that have resulted in a crisis that we are seeing unfold today.

OK, I’ll bite…………….. This is the tipping point people.

First, anyone, ANYONE, can anyone name one single governmental program that isn’t infested with waste, fraud, and abuse.

Second, if you, as a private citizen of this waste, fraud, and abuse, and are harmed, do you realize you have no recourse since the “government” have passed legislation to immune themselves? ….. and you want government to take over health care?

Third, why is it that the MSM never exposes the individuals behind the governmental failures unless it is a Republican President, who has no day to day hands on control? Why are not the political contributions of these quasi government/private sector corporations like Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac ever investigated for conflict of interest?

Why?

Why?

WHY?

John, if you want to win this thing, it is time for a lot of truth telling and vetting of some of your freinds in Congress. Government caused this problem in the first place.

Sarah, you took on the guys in Alaska, make this your first fight in Washington. Don’t follow John’s deception to the American people. Name names, put accoutability to those who benefited before the failures, and to those who’s governmental policies caused them.

If John objects, go tell him to fornicate with himself, and leave the ticket……………………….. the rest of us pissed of Americans will follow. WE ARE TIRED OF THIS SH#T!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seven Percent Solution on September 15, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Ed, why is my comment not on here?

upinak on September 15, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Oil closed at under 99 dollars a barrel for the first time since June people.And yet I paid 3.99 a gallon for gas I swear they are making mad money right now off us.
tee866 on September 15, 2008 at 3:27 PM

Which means you have no idea how the energy markets operate.

Bishop on September 15, 2008 at 4:09 PM

OR, as in OR incoming news.

Entelechy on September 15, 2008 at 4:02 PM

I mean that OR might be in play, if the trends continue.

Entelechy on September 15, 2008 at 4:09 PM

Ed, nevermind… either it is my computer or I am just tired.

upinak on September 15, 2008 at 4:09 PM

Which means you have no idea how the energy markets operate.

Bishop on September 15, 2008 at 4:09 PM

Jesus, don’t be like that to people who don’t understand. Teach them, explain it to them. the more people know and understand, the more they can stand up to rejects like Pelosi and Reid and tell them how stupid these two people are.

upinak on September 15, 2008 at 4:10 PM

So, next up? Insurance companies start to go under.

Romeo13 on September 15, 2008 at 4:03 PM

aka- AIG

My take… good. Investment banks and insurance have become bloated on nothing but fluff. Let ‘em burn. The market ain’t going anywhere and it opens up the potential for everything to get right sized and eliminate the BS.

Every so often, forest fires are necessary and beneficial for the overall environment. Keep the burn from spreading as much as possible but otherwise, let ‘em go. The new growth will be healthier, stronger and more accurately reflect environmental changes without the confines of choking weeds.

Damiano on September 15, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Bad news and so here MB4 is happy as clam feeding off the misery of others.

And ofcourse finding some weird ass convoluted way to blame it all on McCain and the Mexicans. or something.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 4:12 PM

This has been coming for a long time and the truth is no one did a lot to stop it. The Democrats have been in control of Congress for the last couple of years and what did they do? Nada. And the truth is, there is a not a lot that can be done. This thing will have to work its way through the system.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 4:15 PM

As for gas prices, the last time I looked wholesale was about $2.60 or $2.65. Depending on where you are, taxes and retail costs are usually about an additional .55 a gallon. Prices should be coming down soon. In fact I was thinking that a week ago.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 4:18 PM

Oil closed at under 99 dollars a barrel for the first time since June people.And yet I paid 3.99 a gallon for gas I swear they are making mad money right now off us.
tee866 on September 15, 2008 at 3:27 PM

Incorrect. Yeah, it sucks… but it’s still supply and demand and no one is looking at the refining piece. Assuming that a barrel of oil were free and as plentiful as ocean water; we’d still get hammered on gas. Why? Because we can’t refine the stuff fast enough to meet increasing global demand.

You want to fix the problem? Call your House Reps and Senators and smack some sense into them. Tell them to kick out the environmental lobbyists and face reality. 2 hurricanes just hit all the Gulf oil rigs… an not a drop spilled. There is no reason not to drill. Next, loosen the BS red tape around refineries. If oil production remained unchanged, but we had more efficient and more plentiful refineries, gas prices would drop like a rock. Protect the environment… fine. But there is no reason to stop construction and investment in new refineries that WANT to comply with all the environmental regs.

Damiano on September 15, 2008 at 4:18 PM

Seven Percent Solution on September 15, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Limbaugh made a similar point today, named a couple of names. I’m very bad with names….and those two were unfamiliar to me, but Rush did say that Sen. Chris Dodd was at the head of the list of campaign contributions received from Freddie/Fanny (yeah I wasn’t really paying attention) with Sen. Obama second on the list.

Romeo13 made similar points that the senate banking committee scores big bucks from the industry that committee is said to be responsible. Barney Franks is in there somewhere and I saw him last week on CNBC spinning furiously to avoid blame and push it off on Bush.

McCain and Palin really have a reform issue here if they will pursue it and name the people involved.

I have a vague recollection of someone somewhere saying that behind every bankruptcy was fraud somewhere.

rockhauler on September 15, 2008 at 4:20 PM

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 4:18 PM

Don’t bank on it. TX won’t be refining anything for a couple weeks. The refineries are okay (mostly) but they ain’t got no power. Power will be out in south and east TX for at least a couple of weeks.

Damiano on September 15, 2008 at 4:20 PM

upinak on September 15, 2008 at 4:10 PM

Eh, sometimes people do know but they just want a populist whine to jump on, for all I know that could be the case here; I was just speculating.

Bishop on September 15, 2008 at 4:20 PM

There was a post last week, written by a true blue liberal, who has began to realize that liberals know nothing about conservatives and how they think and feel. But the writer has found out that the conservatives have a detailed understanding and empathy for how liberals think.
Thus the writer concluded, the gap. Liberals live in an isolated world, surrounded by liberal ideals and not allowing conservative beliefs to penetrate. Whereas the conservatives are made up of many liberals who have found the way out of the confusing quagmire of thought, who have finally given up at trying to create excuses for inexcusable behavior.
Conservatives live with a liberal press 24/7 and have for many decades, only recently has the liberals been faced with people like Rush, Hannity, and others. They actually think people like Rush are far out, where we understand that a person like Matthews is very common, a standard of the a good part of the nation.
Hence, a liberal would be confused and not understand a conservative, if they did understand, they wouldn’t be a liberal. Liberals need to live in their own world with their own people, and when that world is breeched, they react violently, forcefully, and with vengeance.
Bias: A CBS Insider Exposes How the Media Distort the News, by Bernie Goldberg is a great book on how the media and the leftist minds think.

right2bright on September 15, 2008 at 4:21 PM

rockhauler on September 15, 2008 at 4:20 PM

You know what I’d love to see?

Bush gives a prime time Presidential address and puts paid to all the “blame Bush” nonsense. His record is clear and he’s been pushing for reforms on all these items. The problem is, he pushes and it sits on Pelosi’s / Reid’s ingnore list while they hold worthless “executive authority” sessions, name post offices and declare “National Funeral Director Appreciation Day”.

Damiano on September 15, 2008 at 4:24 PM

Damiano on September 15, 2008 at 4:18 PM

Right now in TX and a few other States it IS price gouging. 4.19 down there.. is freaking dumb expecially when you have a crisis. I hop ethose who own the gas Stations get charged for gouging the people.

Also, the refinaries HAVE their own power. They run off their own Natural Gas in many areas. They aren’t that damaged, they can get them up and running, they DO have shelter for the workers, but most workers won’t work due to Unions and such. Gotta love Unions at times.

It isn’t just Congress and the Senate (I will actually give them some credit, but not a lot)… it is also the Government of each State and then County and then City/town. They are and have been taxing you and you may not even realize it.

Also the Refinaries have special taxes, per ethanol price, per gallon they have to have diverted for whatever, for the price of sour vrs sweet crude to refine.. etc.

There is SOOO much in the way of what is done, how and where it goes then people realize.

Look into what I am talking about. And also remember that it isn’t just Federal Government, it is also local screwing everyone.. both Dems and Repubs.

There is more to this then what you think.

upinak on September 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Which means you have no idea how the energy markets operate.

Bishop on September 15, 2008 at 4:09 PM

So you are saying that the oil companies are not making
“mad money”? You are saying that the oil companies are making very little money, an average amount, or record amounts. Which of the three are they making, enlighten us.

right2bright on September 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Eh, sometimes people do know but they just want a populist whine to jump on, for all I know that could be the case here; I was just speculating.

Bishop on September 15, 2008 at 4:20 PM

True, but tee really doesn’t. I have seen other posts and Tee usually asks. This time it speculated.

If it was someone else, then you know I would get out the old whip.

upinak on September 15, 2008 at 4:26 PM

right2bright on September 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Oil companies make about 10 cents per gallon of gasoline…

now a bbl of oil is at market value price almost. The Oil Companies also don’t usually keep oil unless it is for their own stations or other products they refine for.. they usually sell it, as we have all heard. So my assignment for you is how much does it cost to refine a bbl of oil into gasoline….

upinak on September 15, 2008 at 4:28 PM

Pelosi/ Reid/ Obama/ etc. can flap all they want..

5 words: WHERE IS OUR APPROPRIATIONS BILL?

Oh… I guess it’s buried under Charlie Rangel’s multiple counts of tax evasion.

Damiano on September 15, 2008 at 4:28 PM

Reform:
Yeah, I’m all for re-forming it.
Lets re-form it back to the form it was 50 years ago; before Congress started telling lenders that they had to lend to people who couldn’t-wouldn’t pay them back.

Unfortunately, ALL of these bozos running for political office that want to reform it, want to reform it so that the government has even more control over what private commerce does; So they can and will make things WORSE for the average working consumer.

LegendHasIt on September 15, 2008 at 4:30 PM

There is more to this then what you think.

upinak on September 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Yeah, some local stations are gouging around the country. But it’s the locals, not the oil co’s. Here in TX, the AG is prosecuting the hell out of gougers. Other state’s AGs need to get on the stick.

As far as the refineries… I live in TX. They are down. Maybe things are different in AK, I wouldn’t know… but I do know that TX does about 20% of domestic refining and the refineries are all down for at least a week or two.

Damiano on September 15, 2008 at 4:33 PM

I think along with his message on Wall Street reform, McCain could score BIG points if he addressed the disastrous effects of deregulating the energy market.
YellowDawg on September 15, 2008 at 2:49 PM

The problem wasn’t the deregulation of the energy market–it was the fact that it was only partially deregulated. In particular, California had a price cap on energy used in the state, but it could only enforce it on energy generated in the state; so, when the market price went above the cap, producers did the obvious thing of selling outside the state. That left the utilities in California forced to buy out-of-state energy, and sell it for a loss. To compound this, they also had to make deals on short notice, buying at an even higher price. Non of this would have been a problem without the cap.

Count to 10 on September 15, 2008 at 4:37 PM

Unfortunately, ALL of these bozos running for political office that want to reform it, want to reform it so that the government has even more control over what private commerce does; So they can and will make things WORSE for the average working consumer.

LegendHasIt on September 15, 2008 at 4:30 PM

Listen carefully to McCain and Palin. Read between the lines. They are putting a populist spin on the message, but neither one has any record of promoting government control like you are saying.

There is no way around government oversight and that is a good thing when kept in check. But oversight has turned into outside management and outside management has turned into management by retarded special interests that want to lend everyone money, regardless of means to repay it.

McCain and Palin both see it for what it is and have this BS in their gun sights.

Damiano on September 15, 2008 at 4:38 PM

Actualy Congress gave the Federal Reserve Board and Banks the power to oversee banks years ago. There is a patchwork of oversite functions which were built in the 1930s, but the government itself has pretty much stayed out of banking allowing the FED to run it… until now…

Romeo13 on September 15, 2008 at 4:03 PM

True that the Fed regulates the day-to-day activities of the banking system vis-a-vis US monetary policy. But Congress still has the power to set regulations regarding credit policies. Equal Housing Act, and all. Congress was also responsible for bringing down the walls against interstate banking in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s, giving rise to coast-to-coast banking monoliths like Citibank and Wachovia.

While these banks can now spread their risk across the USA and avoid another 1980’s rash of bank failures in a specific region, it also concentrates credit risk decision-making into fewer and fewer board rooms. It is hard to say, even 25 years after the last big rash of bank failures, whether the era of interstate banking was a success or a failure. I think that without Congress trying to enforce bad risk-taking through Equal Housing legislation, it would be a runaway success.

Sooner or later, this country is going to have to accept that some people are just not creditworthy enough to have that five bedroom sin palace in the suburbs.

GulfCoastBamaFan on September 15, 2008 at 4:38 PM

Yeah, I’m all for re-forming it.
Lets re-form it back to the form it was 50 years ago; before Congress started telling lenders that they had to lend to people who couldn’t-wouldn’t pay them back.

LegendHasIt on September 15, 2008 at 4:30 PM

Agree. Does that make us racists?

Entelechy on September 15, 2008 at 4:44 PM

Daminao:

Well then the wholesale prices on gas should be going up, not down. If refining capacity is so low that gas can not be made, then gas would be in short supply in which gas wholesale prices should be climbing. In fact, they are falling. According to Bloomberg, wholesale prices have fallen since Ike.

Gas and oil are both down.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 4:45 PM

Every so often, forest fires are necessary and beneficial for the overall environment. Keep the burn from spreading as much as possible but otherwise, let ‘em go. The new growth will be healthier, stronger and more accurately reflect environmental changes without the confines of choking weeds.

Damiano on September 15, 2008 at 4:11 PM

Which reminds me, a bit off topic: if you want to reduce carbon in the atmosphere, cut down the forests. Optimally, you would leave some trees to repopulate, because a growing forest takes CO2 out of the air. Mature forests don’t.

Count to 10 on September 15, 2008 at 4:49 PM

I had to turn of Fox. Neal Cavuto brought on the priest. My God, people it is not the end of the world. Getting hysterical will not help.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 4:49 PM

Legend:

McCain wants to get rid of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. That is the best way to reform something like that. Make it go away.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 4:51 PM

“BUSH LIED, BANKS DIED!!!”

Wait, what???

pherrman on September 15, 2008 at 4:00 PM

“BARACK TALKED, BANKS WALKED!!!”?

“MCCAIN CRIED, BANKS FRIED!!!”?

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 4:52 PM

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:54 PM

Did you forget about AIG…?

J_Gocht on September 15, 2008 at 3:58 PM

Already got that one, Sarge.

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — The Federal Reserve added the most money Monday to the banking system since the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the wake of Lehman Brothers’ bankruptcy, Merrill Lynch’s demise and AIG’s need for cash. [I think they want 50 billion?]

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:49 PM

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 4:59 PM

Is there any reason J-Gocht still posts here? S/H/It is nothing but a troll, who is starting to be demeaning and making personal attacks.

Vanceone on September 15, 2008 at 5:06 PM

right2bright on September 15, 2008 at 4:25 PM

Oil companies make about 10 cents per gallon of gasoline…

now a bbl of oil is at market value price almost. The Oil Companies also don’t usually keep oil unless it is for their own stations or other products they refine for.. they usually sell it, as we have all heard. So my assignment for you is how much does it cost to refine a bbl of oil into gasoline….

upinak on September 15, 2008 at 4:28 PM

Here is a little news for you, and I have the utmost respect for you and your views.
The finances of the oil industry is one of the most complex and confusing in all of the industrial companies. The accounting is probably the most complex of any. The amount of “depreciation” and the way it is taken is almost beyond comprehension.
Here is a little story to put it in perspective. Years ago I was a union guy, where were going for a contract with the grocery stores in So. Calif. The grocery chains squealed like a stuck pig, “We make less then 1% profit, the lowest profit of any retail store in America” they stated (sound familiar?). What they never said, was their warehouses made the profit. You see they bought the groceries (and the purchasing division made the profit), then they “sold” it to the warehouse (who made a profit), then they “sold” it to the stores, who made a slim margin. Hence, the “grocery stores” never made a profit.
So when the oil companies whine that they are not making a profit (after recording record profits), or they say they make less % then other “similar” companies, you have the right to believe them. I have the right and the history not to believe them.
When they start cutting back on bonuses to their execs. (20 million for Exxon chief, Chevron 20 mil plus 26 mil in stock), then you can tell me how they are struggling to make ends meet.
They can tell you whatever they want about how much it costs to “refine” gas…and you or I don’t and won’t really know. Except it is enough to pay tens of millions of dollars in bonuses to the execs, and give them record profits…oh but it is only x% the lowest of any industry.
*
BTW, do you really think if it only cost them .10 to refine a gallon of gas, and they are selling it for $5.00 they would ever tell you?

right2bright on September 15, 2008 at 5:07 PM

There was a post last week, written by a true blue liberal, who has began to realize that liberals know nothing about conservatives and how they think and feel. But the writer has found out that the conservatives have a detailed understanding and empathy for how liberals think.

Parents understand how children think, because we were once children ourselves, and have at least some recollection of our naive ways. Children can’t remember maturity they have yet to achieve.

Churchill knew it. Evan Sayet knows it. Now we just need to get leftists to grow up.

The Monster on September 15, 2008 at 5:09 PM

I saw this at Power Line :

Over the weekend, I saw on several occastions an Obama campaign ad attacking John McCain’s credentials as a reformer by pointing out that lobbyists occupy key positions in his campaign. The ads are classic “guilt” by association attacks, and their effectiveness against a candidate known to much of the public as a maverick reformer and a war hero is likely to be limited. On the other hand, with Obama apparently now trailing McCain, he has little choice but to go negative with ads of this sort that seek to peck away at McCain’s image.

However, today comes word that, with the exception of Chris Dodd, Barack Obama received the most money of any member of Congress in campaign contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, a total of $126,000 plus change. John McCain is well down the list at around $22,000.

If the choice is between a candidate whose aides make money by lobbying for various big industries and a candidate who himself benefits through contributions from an industry that Congress failed to keep an eye on, to the well-publicized detriment of taxpayers, it’s pretty clear who wins that argument.

Democrats, the Do as we Say not as as we Do party.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 5:11 PM

`Remember Where You Were?’

“It really goes to the heart of the financial system,” said Stephen Wood, who helps oversee $213 billion as senior portfolio strategist at Russell Investment Group in New York. “It’ll be one of those days where people say in 10 years, `Do you remember where you were?”’
- Bloomberg

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 5:12 PM

MB4:

Ghoul.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 5:15 PM

One of the things that I’ve drilled into my kids heads is that if a deal sounds too good to be true then it is.

I’ve only followed all of this peripherally, so am I wrong in assuming that at the base of this lies bad loans? In other words, both loans to people that really shouldn’t be getting them and stupid a$$ schemes like ARMs and 100% interest loans?

If my assumption is right (tho, probably over-simplified) it seems like the biggest problem that we have stupid people.

rockhead on September 15, 2008 at 5:21 PM

If my assumption is right (tho, probably over-simplified) it seems like the biggest problem that we have is stupid people.

Like ones that forget verbs – har.

rockhead on September 15, 2008 at 5:23 PM

Democrats, the Do as we Say not as as we Do party.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 5:11 PM

McSame is the democrats most effective line of attack. Unfortunately, McCain has already killed that meme a long time ago. No one believes that he’ll be Bush’s 3rd time.

Since they can’t really focus on Obama’s proposals, beyond basic generalities, they are stuck with it.

And it’s a sinking ship.

lorien1973 on September 15, 2008 at 5:24 PM

It is not America in crisis, it is not wall street in crisis, it is Lehman in bankruptcy.

rockhauler on September 15, 2008 at 3:33 PM

Like there is no connection between “Wall Street” and America. I wonder if McCain believes that too.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 3:39 PM

MB4 (3:39)
Classic illustration of non sequitur. Thank you for that.

rockhauler on September 15, 2008 at 3:44 PM

So do you think that the 500 plus point drop in the DOW all came from Lehman? I don’t think that they are even in the DOW.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 5:25 PM

MB4:

Ghoul.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 5:15 PM

Get a grip.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 5:26 PM

In other words, both loans to people that really shouldn’t be getting them and stupid a$$ schemes like ARMs and 100% interest loans?

My realtor made an excellent argument for a 100% interest loan or heloc, as he called it. He stated that compared to a conventional fixed rate loan that I could put more money toward the principal with the heloc if I were to apply the difference in monthly payments between the two loans to my balance. It sounded good but I wasn’t sure I would have the fiscal willpower to do that every month, and with interest rates rising it was just a matter of time before I would be forced to refinance. I played it safe and got the conventional loan, and I’m glad I did.

DFCtomm on September 15, 2008 at 5:31 PM

MB4:

I have a grip. I just think you are a ghoul.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 5:33 PM

So do you think that the 500 plus point drop in the DOW all came from Lehman? I don’t think that they are even in the DOW.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 5:25 PM

I think the government’s unwillingness to prop up Lehman scared the crap out of a lot of people.

DFCtomm on September 15, 2008 at 5:34 PM

DF:

I was a realtor and the thing about the 100% loans is that it makes it possible for people who do not have any savings to get loans. That works out fine for some people. But for some others, it means they get in over their heads.

It is also true that people were getting several of these loans and buying homes and flipping them. When the market began to slide and home prices began to tumble, a lot of these speculators just dumped the property and let the loans go into foreclosure. That further dampened property values and debt piled up for the lenders.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 5:36 PM

Part of the drop might well be energy stocks coming down. When oil falls that will happen.

I think a lot of it, is just that there is some worry about banking in general and that effects the value of the dollar and it all comes back to the DOW.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 5:38 PM

MB4:

I have a grip. I just think you are a ghoul.

Terrye on September 15, 2008 at 5:33 PM

So what do you want me to say, that the economic fundamentals are strong, like McClueless said, when they are not?

Wouldn’t be prudent.

MB4 on September 15, 2008 at 6:01 PM

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