Video: 102 minutes that changed America
posted at 10:27 am on September 11, 2008 by Allahpundit
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A thread for your ruminations, pegged to must-see viewing on the History Channel tonight. I hate writing about 9/11 because it leaves me even more unequal to the task than usual, so rather than waste your time let me send you to the NYT for its scoop on Bush having finally greenlit Special Ops raids on Al Qaeda bases in Pakistan. It’s paying off:
According to two American officials briefed on the raid, it involved more than two dozen members of the Navy Seals who spent several hours on the ground and killed about two dozen suspected Qaeda fighters in what now appeared to have been a planned attack against militants who had been conducting attacks against an American forward operating base across the border in Afghanistan.
Supported by an AC-130 gunship, the Special Operations forces were whisked away by helicopters after completing the mission.
Why risk a backlash in Pakistan this way instead of letting the hometown team handle it? Because: (a) the Pakistani government has no intention of fighting the Taliban or AQ no matter how much money we throw at them, a fact worth bearing in mind the next time Obama talks up his plan to win them over with a massive increase in non-military foreign aid; and (b) according to Joint Chiefs Chairman Mike Mullen (as well as Michael Yon), we’re almost out of time in Afghanistan. The cost of not acting now exceeds the cost of brief incursions across the border, even though it risks destabilizing a nuclear state. Ponder that as a metric of how dire the situation is.
If you’re not inclined to read the whole Times piece, read the last few paragraphs at least for a reminder of how filthy and duplicitous Pakistani intelligence is. As for the video below, all nine clips are worth watching but the one from Gateway Plaza is especially surreal. This old PBS footage is my own personal requisite 9/11 viewing (especially part three), but I doubt it’ll evoke the same feeling for people who don’t live in the city. For those who do, bring a handkerchief. Click the image to watch.
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ExTex, damn that was a serious tear jerker, you should put warning signs up on that thing!
Proof that you raise your kid right. Good job. The really sad part is that they don’t talk about this in his school. I gues they don’t wanna get sued for offending bin Laden’s feeeeeeelings.
Tony737 on September 11, 2008 at 11:40 AM
Here’s my 9/11 experience:
I work nights and get up about 9 or 10 am. On the morning of Sept. 11th, I was in bed sleeping, I was having a very vivid dream that I was standing at the back of an airplane, looking forward into the cabin, then all of a sudden, the plane came to an abrupt stop and I go flying forward towards the front. I wake up and I’m literally standing next to my bed, heart racing, thinking ‘what the heck was THAT?’ I go downstairs and turn on the TV just in time to see the second plane hit the WTC.
Tony737 on September 11, 2008 at 11:41 AM
I haven’t forgotten, so I don’t need to emotionally clobber myself with the 9/11 footage every year. The few videos that I’ve seen over the intervening years are still etched into my memory and to be quite honest, given the choice I’d rather forget than refresh them. But I don’t feel that that’s a ‘choice’. So …
Never forget.
Aylios on September 11, 2008 at 11:42 AM
I was working in Manhattan on that day. My view was from north, Union Square area. After seeing the gash from the first hit I knew this was not a small plane as some were saying, and that it could not have been an accident. I did not see the second plane hit. What will haunt me is the steady stream of people walking, zombie like, covered in dust, walking up from the 14th street roadblocks.
How so many can forget the fear and dread that we were going to be hit agian and again by terrorist, and that life will never be the same again The fact that there has not been another attack on US soil since that day, even as attackes continued overseas, is a testament that the right actions were taken post 9/11.
AverageJoe on September 11, 2008 at 11:43 AM
Sometimes I think we should’ve just nuked ‘em. But Bush did the right thing. Liberate the people who struggle under these maniacs and live through terrorism everyday. A generation from now, we’ll look back at 9/11 as the day that the Sleeping Giant woke up and began the liberation of the Enslaved World.
Tony737 on September 11, 2008 at 11:44 AM
Have you forgotten? Nope not ever, fellow Melungeon blogs personal experience.
http://sarah-palin-2008.blogspot.com/2008/09/my-911-story-bigger-picture.html
Dr Evil on September 11, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Thank you for that. and I echo what Tony737 said here….
rslancer14 on September 11, 2008 at 11:49 AM
A generation from now, we’ll look back at 9/11 as the day that the Sleeping Giant woke up and began the liberation of the Enslaved World.
Tony737 on September 11, 2008 at 11:44 AM
I hope you are right, but I’m afraid they are slaves to the Islamic dogma by choice. Unless there is a reformation of the Islamic religion, as occurred in Christianity, the Muslim world will continue to wallow in self-pity and acts of violence against imagined affronts to the dignity of their religion. Theirs is a religion of insanity which breeds more insanity. I fear there is no hope for them. Therefore, we will be forced to act against them in ways a civilized society would not want to imagine.
church on September 11, 2008 at 11:50 AM
Sometimes I think we should’ve just nuked ‘em.
Tony737 on September 11, 2008 at 11:44 AM
——–
Nuked who? Where?
Dave Rywall on September 11, 2008 at 11:53 AM
The moon.
Slublog on September 11, 2008 at 11:56 AM
Like you of all people really care what day it is. And if you did, why would you be doing your regular trolling on a day such as this?
4shoes on September 11, 2008 at 11:56 AM
I’m not one to pimp my blog, but today I linked back to the post I wrote 2 years ago, detailing my experiences. It’s been a while since I’ve thought about it, and even after 7 years, I get tears in my eyes and a lump in my throat.
When I told my daughter the signifigance of today (and that we should always be proud to be American, but especially today), she asked me why people would want to hurt us. I told her honestly that I did not know – but just as there are always a few mean kids to ruin things for the rest of her class, so it is in the bigger world. She also asked me on the way to the bus stop where all the flags were… another question I could not answer.
I hate to watch video of the attack. But I will today, just as I’ve done since 2001, and as I always will, until my eyes can see no more.
Anna on September 11, 2008 at 11:56 AM
I was working in London at the time it happened. I still remember looking around after seeing the footage on a public TV somewhere and wondering why people weren’t reacting to this. Noone else really seemed to not give a damn. I guess if I’d been in a real islamic country instead of the UK, people would’ve been celebrating instead of just completely indifferent. Somehow I don’t see that as a big positive for the UK though.
Aylios on September 11, 2008 at 11:57 AM
I hate to say this, but in a way, we’re actually lucky we got hit when we did. Don’t freak out, keep reading. Just imagine what would’ve happened if we had just kept on sleeping as the forces of global jihad kept on building up, infiltrating ever deeper into the West, into our armed forces, into our intelligence agencies. Imagine if they had gotten their hands on some Nuke/Chem/Bio/Radiological weapons and we still had Jamie Gorelick’s “wall” of seperation between the FBI and CIA. They were already in the process of working their way through our society, getting to know us, our weaknesses, our stregnths, all the while we were alseep and unaware (some of us were paying attention, I started to watch these guys when I was in 6th grade when the Iranian hostage crisis began). Imagine if they had gotten in place, all over the West, and launched their NBCRs at the same time and killed millions of people. Even some islamos think a.q. struck too soon, we’ve seen them right here on HotAir saying they should have waited a few more years. Had they waited, prepared and hit later, it could’ve been far, far worse. 9/11 opened our eyes to the even bigger threat out there and we’ve been fighting back ever since.
Must reads for all HotHeads:
‘The West’s Last Chance’ by Tony Blankley
‘Infiltration’ by Paul Sperry
Tony737 on September 11, 2008 at 11:59 AM
They are showing the video of the people dancing in the streets in the Palestinian territories and throwing candy after hearing of the 9/11 attack. This is what we need to remember. Not just the attack itself, but the reaction of the Muslim world.
church on September 11, 2008 at 12:01 PM
Thank you for posting these 9/11 videos. I can no longer watch them. It fills me with despair to know that so many Americans believe that these attacks were our fault.
When I was young growing up in Maryland, my best friend was a self-identified Palestinian (mom Irish-American, dad Palestinian) who spent her early childhood in Saudi Arabia. At the time, I thought I understood the Palestinian conflict. I thought it was incumbent upon Israel and Israelis, as the folks in power, to bend and compromise to the interests of the Palestinians. I thought there was a parallel to the British rule in Northern Ireland. I met my friend’s cousin, Nabil, who told us about his involvement in the conflict. I am ashamed to say that at the time I thought it was vaguely “cool” that this young man was fighting for his people. I didn’t think about the folks on the other end of the conflict.
When we graduated high school and moved on to our separate colleges, we grew apart. I fell in love and became a scientist. She disparaged my choice in careers (I was a “martyr for microbes”) and marriage. We drifted apart.
On September 11th I was as assistant professor trying to get my lab up to speed. I heard about the attacks from the secretaries who were listening to their radios. I couldn’t believe it. Watching the coverage that evening, I was filled with grief and anger as I saw towers fall. I felt tremendous loss as we all learned of the brave people on flight 93. But it was the attack on the Pentagon that clarified for me that we were at war and it was the gleeful response of the Palestinians and others in the Middle East that showed me who the enemy was. I was scheduled to speak at a conference in Japan a couple of weeks later. I never went.
I have never felt the same way about the Palestinian conflict. I still see the mistakes and faults that are sometimes committed by Israelis and their government, but it doesn’t shake my certainty that Israel is our ally and much of the Arab world is our enemy.
I spent 6 years in academe, most of it post-9/11, and quietly observed the justifications (for the hijackers) rolled out by the vast majority my academic colleagues. (If I had been in the liberal arts, rather than in science, I’m sure I wouldn’t have endured even that many years of exposure to such nonsense. At least scientists are preoccupied with their labs.) Although I had worked in my youth on political campaigns (Nixon through Reagan), as I began my professional career in academe, I had been in the closet… but when Bush ran for his second term, I finally put a sticker on my car. A couple of days later I found a condescending, hate-filled rant about Bush on my window… turned out to be written by a senior colleague in my department and member of the promotions committee.
I turned in my grants, shut down my lab, and left academe a couple of years later to work for the dean of our business school. It was the best two years of my professional life.
Now I’m in California surrounded by the liberal intellegentsia. My husband still works in academe so I cannot have a lawn sign or a bumper sticker. (He is in the closet.) Although we are not a battleground state, every word that Obama and his supporters utter about 9/11, Iraq, Iran, and oil motivates me to contribute to McCain-Palin and work on their campaign.
We must win this election. Bush, despite his flaws, has kept the battle off of our soil. God bless him. Obama, with his pathological need to be adored by foreigners and his superficial intellectualism, cannot keep us safe.
Sorry for this long post — thank you for the venue.
ps. My friend is now a professor of gender and “queer” (her term) studies at UC Irvine, a hotbed of anti-American pro-jihadist “thought” and activities.
Y-not on September 11, 2008 at 12:02 PM
Imagine what it must have been like for Squad 288 and HazMat-1 in Maspeth, Queens. On 9/11, 28 men from both squads rushed to the Towers. Nine came back. Few outside of soldiers in war, I suspect, can relate to losing every single one of their friends in a single day. We must never take our first responders for granted. They’re already heroes in my books.
KillerKane on September 11, 2008 at 12:02 PM
Unfortunately some never learned to begin with, despite a long history of terrorism acts spanning from Sadat to 9/11 and today. There were pacifists protesting during WWII. Ya can’t reach everybody…and some don’t want to know…
Ozprey on September 11, 2008 at 12:03 PM
The response to the 11th September 2001 attacks was the invasion of Afghanistan, not the invasion of Iraq. Whether the Afghanistan conflict fits your beer analogy is, I think, very doubtful.
The 2003 invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with the WTC attacks and was not illegal; it was simply a continuation of the 1991 conflict and was fully authorised by the weasel-worded “serious consequences” clause of a UN resolution. (In the context that it arose the “serious consequences” expression could not possibly have meant anything except all-out war, and at the time the resolution was agreed everybody knew that is what it meant, even though it was expressed in UN-wiggle-speak.)
From 1991 there was never a real choice between war and peace in Iraq, but only a choice between different types and extents of conflict. The world required the USA and UK to implement a policy of containment of Iraq for 12 years while the nations of the UN dithered about what else to do (meanwhile the USA and UK took the cost and risk of maintaining the protective no-fly zones). By 2002 the sanctions regime had been breached several times and was on the verge of collapse; once it did collapse Iraq could have rearmed with impunity. Consequently, by 2003 it had become necessary to choose between (a) immediate war or (b) the simple abandonment of the containment and then likely face a far worse conflict a few years into the future.
The events of Iraq had nothing to do with the 2001-Sept-11 events. Messrs Bush, Blair and others tried to link the events to gain support for further action in Iraq and that attempt to link to unrelated events, instead of taking the trouble to actually use the genuine case that could have been used, made both of them look rather stupid. Mr Blair compounded the appearance of stupidity by foolishly seeking a further, completely unnecessary, UN resolution which he didn’t succeed to get.
So Prime Minister Blair and President Bush made themselves look like fools and, to some extent they did behave like fools. The situation probably could have been handled better by all concerned, namely the surrounding states, the UN members **and Iraq itself**.
Nonetheless the bottom line is that (1) Iraq did not want to accomodate the UN demands and therefore (2) the war was certainly justified and lawful (to the extent that there is real international law), and (3) by 2003 the war seemed to many people to be the least bad of a range of bad options.
And now I guess I need to apologize for a long post AND for being off-topic. Sorry.
YiZhangZhe on September 11, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Amen brother – I was crying talking to my wife about your post as I have a five-year old, and I know that day is coming… soon. I pray for the wisdom to explain it properly.
Allah, thank you for the post.
SkinnerVic on September 11, 2008 at 12:05 PM
I was in the air when it happened. Fortunately, my flight made a beeline to Miami, where I spent the rest of the week in the airport hotel. I was on one of the first flights allowed in the air later in the week – 11 people on board, and they were still trying to figure out procedure, so it took three hours to get cleared to take off after we boarded. Open bar, though, so we made do. A few weeks later, I was flying to Canada, and the pilot came on the intercom: “thanks for still flying, folks – I have a special treat. I got clearance to drop to 10,000ft and do a loop around Yellowstone Park.” After the aerial view of the park and the applause from the passengers for the crew, I knew we are bigger than anything the Islamists can throw at us.
Vashta.Nerada on September 11, 2008 at 12:06 PM
Remember when you used to be able to walk into office buildings and straight on to the elevators?
I know that on the scale of changes to our lives since 9/11 that’s waaaaay down there, but – among other thoughts I’ve had today – I was thinking about the small inconveniences we have had to encounter as a result of the attacks.
YYZ on September 11, 2008 at 12:09 PM
What would Ronald Reagan say on a day like this?
I’ll tell you.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on September 11, 2008 at 12:11 PM
I don’t know one person who doesn’t remember exactly where they were and what they were doing on 9/11.
I was in my first couple weeks of college, away from home (live in MD). I had just come back from my 8am class, and saw the footage on the TV in our lobby. Came to my room, and by that time, the Pentagon had been hit. Scared me to death b/c just the day before, my dad mentioned he had a meeting over there. I was panicked b/c I couldn’t remember if the meeting was that Monday or Tuesday. Tried to call home and the lines were down, couldn’t reach him, or my mom, or anyone in the DC area. Terrifying. Had to wait hours before both my parents emailed me.
I will never forget that day. May God continue to comfort the families of the victims and the survivors.
Dubn8tr on September 11, 2008 at 12:15 PM
My collie says:
CyberCipher on September 11, 2008 at 12:15 PM
… when Bush ran for his second term, I finally put a sticker on my car. A couple of days later I found a condescending, hate-filled rant about Bush on my window… turned out to be written by a senior colleague in my department … – Ynot
Figures. The leaders of the ‘peace, love and freedom’ movement are the first ones to vandalize your porperty with hate and try to take away YOUR freedom of speech. Losers.
… we are bigger than anything the Islamists can throw at us. – Vash
Well said.
Tony737 on September 11, 2008 at 12:15 PM
Hypocrites! You grieve for the 3000 dead in New York but not for the 7000 Iraqis who died during the American Invasion!(1) Not to mention the c:a 90.000 civilians that has died in Iraq until today.(2) And for your information I am not a liberal but a conservative. I don’t say (which some of you seem to think, since all you seem to do is to assign bad motives to others wheter they be liberals or anything else) that the victims of 9-11 are unworthy of sympathy. I do say however that it is hypocrisy to grieve them and at the same time extol the virtues of the American invasion of Iraq which cause a far greater number of innocent deaths. Are you saying that Iraqi lives are worth less than American lives?
.
(1) http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/numbers/biggest-bombs/
(2) 87,387 – 95,373 dead http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 12:17 PM
I can certainly empathise with his view that the Muslim mind is unchangeable but my own experiences of speaking with Muslims do give me a *small* hope that he is wrong.
I have never personally known a Muslim to become an ex-Muslim but there are several web sites which have been created by ex-Muslims so there is evidence of it happening.
YiZhangZhe on September 11, 2008 at 12:18 PM
I was living in California at the time and the alarm went off just about the time the first plane hit. The radio station pretty much reported it as a news story about a commuter plane crashing into the WTC (they clearly were thinking something along the lines of a Piper Cub not a 727)and went on with normal programming. By the time I was ready for work, the regular programming had shifted to continuous coverage just about the time the second plane hit but even then they were trying to chalk it up to some sort of navigation error (which in retrospect was damned stupid). Literally as I reached the front gate at work (on a Navy Base) the Pentagon was attacked. The base went into full lockdown shortly thereafter.
The most vivid thing I remember is the disbelief as to what was happening when the first tower collapsed. It never entered my thinking that this was a possibility. Not that it matters but only later did I discover a personal connection to the 9/11/01 atrocities as a sibling had (days before) moved just a couple blocks away from Ground Zero.
That day and those atrocities were a milestone in my life that galvanized certain core values and spurred me to reaccess certain aspects about what is important in my life. To a certain extent I think that was true of the nation as well (though lack of further attacks and partisanship has resulted in backsliding). We cannot forget the 9/11/01 atrocities and the perils of treating fundamentalist Islam the way Europe and Democrats would deal with it. We are a nation at war and sadly much of the nation and far too many political leaders are in denial. Time to reawaken and fight our enemies- foreign AND domestic.
highhopes on September 11, 2008 at 12:18 PM
I seem to remember that after 9/11 Bush’s “vision” was to democratize Afg. and Iraq in hopes to box in Iran hoping they were ready for a coup creating a domino effect. Anyone remember the administration referring to this early on? It was awhile ago so I’m a bit unsure. Seems to be the way its playing out, although perhaps not as quickly as we’d liked.
Ozprey on September 11, 2008 at 12:21 PM
9/11 did not change America. 45% of the adult population is still brain-dead left, who think Islamofascism will go away if you ignore it.
Basilsbest on September 11, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Which candidate will kill more Muslims? That’s all that matters.
Bugler on September 11, 2008 at 12:24 PM
“Seems to be the way its playing out, although perhaps not as quickly as we’d liked.”
Iraq is in fact playing out faster than could have been reasonably expected. Afghanistan, however, is the most backward place on earth, next to San Francisco.
Basilsbest on September 11, 2008 at 12:27 PM
Is there any evidence that the jihadis have left Iraq to fight in Afghanistan, or is this a different group?
PattyJ on September 11, 2008 at 12:28 PM
Remember who cheered and who is driving to give them a homeland.
Elric66 on September 11, 2008 at 12:29 PM
seem to remember that after 9/11 Bush’s “vision” was to democratize Afg. and Iraq in hopes to box in Iran hoping they were ready for a coup creating a domino effect. – Oz
Yep, we’ve got ‘em surrounded on three sides now. if and when they get too close to building a nuke, we have a relatively short flight to the targets. Some day, when the History is written, it’ll be remembered that it was the U.S. Air Force who saved the world from an Iranian nuke.
Tony737 on September 11, 2008 at 12:30 PM
Thanks for so many kind words about my post. I gotta tell ya- after he got on the bus, I bawled my eyes out.
But I’m grateful that he understands true heroism and sacrifice for others. Tonight we’ll watch together and I’m sure there’ll be many more tears.
God Bless you all, and God Bless America.
ExTex on September 11, 2008 at 12:31 PM
I don’t like islam. It is a hateful, perverse and dangerous cult that promotes everything that is bad in human nature. Even with this said, it is not acceptable to wantonly kill muslims like Bugler seems to think. We need to convert them and civilise them. Amen.
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 12:31 PM
I can certainly empathise with his view that the Muslim mind is unchangeable but my own experiences of speaking with Muslims do give me a *small* hope that he is wrong.
I have never personally known a Muslim to become an ex-Muslim but there are several web sites which have been created by ex-Muslims so there is evidence of it happening.
YiZhangZhe on September 11, 2008 at 12:18 PM
I hope you are right. However, when you consider there a billion Muslims in the world it is going to take more than just a handful to effect change. With few exceptions, even the Muslims who call themselves moderate generally make the blanket statement that they don’t condone the violence of Islamic terrorists, then follow it up with the inevitable “but”. To me that is a tell. When I say I don’t condone German concentration camps, I don’t follow it with, but I can understand why the Germans were so angry with the Jews and how they might blah, blah, blah. No, I do not condone what the Germans did to the Jews under any circumstances and their is no exception, or “but” about it.
church on September 11, 2008 at 12:32 PM
The invasion of Iraq and it’s associated human casualties has been a Sunday school picnic compared to the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s, the genocide of the Kurds, the torture and mass executions carried out by Saddam. You are like the moron that decries the six million Germans killed in WWII, all the while glossing over the 6 million Jews gassed in gas chambers, the 20 million+ Russian casualties, etceteras — and don’t EVEN get me started on what the Japanese did in China and the Philippines. You, sir, are the WORST of dolts because you can not even understand arithmetic. You are beneath contempt.
I will not let you deter me in ANY way. God has already PROMISED that He will judge you by the very words that come out of your own mouth. Your horrific fate awaits you. Islam MUST end — by ANY means necessary.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on September 11, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Is there any evidence that the jihadis have left Iraq to fight in Afghanistan, or is this a different group? – Patty
Yes, they have mostly given up on Iraq and are returning to A-stan. We need more troops there to kill these phugging cockroaches before they kill another innocent.
Tony737 on September 11, 2008 at 12:33 PM
… there a billion Muslims in the world … – Church
Yeah, but, only 10% of them are terrorists!
Tony737 on September 11, 2008 at 12:36 PM
highhopes on September 11, 2008 at 11:30 AM
Let’s go to the headline:
“Video: 102 minutes that changed America”
My post states how it changed America, or more importantly how America changed. Whine and cry all you like, the reason you are so hot and bothered because what I stated was true. Frankly if term “vermin” is going to be applied to any of us it would be you, because you are the one that is equating our government or this administration to the citizens. That is very disrespectful or at least ignorant.
The reason that the administration’s exploitation of 9/11 makes me so angry is because I so vividly remember 9/11, I remember the confusion, the feelings of the day, the cloudless sky, first hearing the news from a cabbies radio while I was on my break, hearing that the towers were no more, the look of confusion on peoples’ faces in the streets, people who I knew wondering whether their family members were alive, but since the cell phones were off and on that task was even more worrisome, and the people plunging to their deaths after making a decision that no one should be forced to make. The fact that the administration looked at this despicable act and thought, “hell this will help us get into Iraq” makes me angry to no end, especially when I saw and spoke to many new post 9/11 enlistees on the trains and buses of this country. Your partisan blindness and your nonsensical idea of “virtue” does not excuse you from the duty you owe your fellow citizens, to seek out the truth of a matter. An osterich is not a patriot.
LevStrauss on September 11, 2008 at 12:39 PM
I get so tired of the “are you saying Iraqi lives aren’t worth as much as American lives” crap. Simply put, no they are not. Just as my son’s life is more valuable to me than anyone elses son, so are the citizens of my nation’s lives more valuable than another nations. This is why we have nation states, with distinct visions, values, laws and societies. A nation is an extended family and I submit with no shame that I value the members of my nation family more than those of another.
church on September 11, 2008 at 12:41 PM
I was living in Texas at the time, and we had a family friend over from Michigan who was due to fly back on the 12th. The first five hours of my day – starting at 8 or 9 AM when my Mom woke me up to watch the news – were spent glued in front of the TV, as everyone was in my house. We were too horrified to do anything else.
We went to a church service that evening. I remember listening to the radio in the car, and the grossly over-inflated reports of 130,000 dead. Thank God it didn’t turn out anywhere near that.
Ryan Gandy on September 11, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Nice propaganda.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22537.pdf
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on September 11, 2008 at 12:44 PM
I can certainly empathise with his view that the Muslim mind is unchangeable but my own experiences of speaking with Muslims do give me a *small* hope that he is wrong.
I have never personally known a Muslim to become an ex-Muslim but there are several web sites which have been created by ex-Muslims so there is evidence of it happening.
YiZhangZhe on September 11, 2008 at 12:18 PM
Some put that figure as high as 20%. But even using the 10% figure that is 100 million muslims ready for Jihad. I would say that is one hell of an army.
church on September 11, 2008 at 12:46 PM
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 12:17 PM
I won’t re-hash any points that have been previously made, but I’ll instead ask you one question:
Do you understand the difference between a cowardly attack on civilians, and a war?
Ryan Gandy on September 11, 2008 at 12:47 PM
Is is completely irrelevant what the Iran-Iraq war casued. It is not the issue. The issue is – how can Americans cry their eyes out over 3000 American deaths and then 2 years later cause 7000 innocent Iraqis to die and not even blink over the hypocrisy? When Americans kill then it is somehow justified but when Americans die, it is never justified, no matter the perceived grievances of the enemies. I say that this is the very essence of hypocrisy. For me all deaths are tragedies that should be avoided. We are not masters of life and death and America has no jurisdiction to usurp the role of God in meting out punishments. He who lives by the sword will perish by the sword. Amen.
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 12:48 PM
People grieve more readily for those closest to them. Several million people have died this week for various reasons and I freely admit that I neither knew nor grieved for any of them; did you? My lack of grief does not diminish the value of any of their lives.
As for “innocent deaths”:
According to reports made by UNICEF in the late 1990s, the containment policy that the world (in the form of the UN) decided to enact against Iraq was leading indirectly to the deaths of between 5000 and 6000 small children every month (lack of nutrition or medication). Those estimates were later revised downwards but it is still believed that the containment policy indirectly caused the deaths of several hundred thousand Iraqi children. The Iraq government was also bumping people off for various reasons.
If we assume that all of these reports are largely accurate then, while the invasion of 2003 has caused civilian deaths, it has also prevented civilian deaths.
How many of the anti-war protestors were grieving for those children? How many of them even knew, or had any interest in what was really happening? Is it hypocritical of anti-war protestors to grieve for those who died after the invasion and not for those who died as an indirect result of UN head-in-sand, not-my-problem-mate, thumb-twiddling?
The conflict got all heated-up and dramatic in 2003, but it didn’t begin in 2003.
YiZhangZhe on September 11, 2008 at 12:50 PM
Ryan Gandy
Yes I do. A cowardly attack on civilians is of course always unjustified, but so is the Iraq war since it was a war of aggression on the part of the USA. This has also all along been the position of both the United Nations legal experts and the Holy See.
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Win.
spmat on September 11, 2008 at 12:52 PM
Ridiculous, preening pomposity will not preserve Western civilization. Amen.
Bugler on September 11, 2008 at 12:53 PM
lol, I’m inclined to agree…….
Ozprey on September 11, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Quotes are quaint, but they don’t mean much.
He who negotiates with Islamists dies by the sword as well.
He who has the biggest sword and is not afraid to use it lives.
I’m not going to bother arguing the rest of it with you, you’ll just have to accept the fact that you are dead wrong. :)
reaganaut on September 11, 2008 at 12:54 PM
For me all deaths are tragedies that should be avoided. We are not masters of life and death and America has no jurisdiction to usurp the role of God in meting out punishments. He who lives by the sword will perish by the sword. Amen.
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 12:48 PM
I always find it hilarious when libs suddenly get religion. I ascribe to the theory, kill em all and let God sort em out. Come on, it is the ultimate honor to be slain in the name of allah, we are just arranging the meeting. You see, in the end God or Allah whatever you choose to call the creator, will still have the ultimate judgement. And just to ease your mind further, he will the ultimately pronounce judgement on us too. So climb down off your soapbox and let the lord’s will play out. After all he knows better than us.
church on September 11, 2008 at 12:56 PM
You and your family, you worthless scumbag.
leetpriest on September 11, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Ok this thread is turning into an ideological battle ground (like all the rest of them). Can’t we have one thread where we can share thoughts and mourn – where were we when we learned about this tragedy and how did it change our lives.
HawaiiLwyr on September 11, 2008 at 12:57 PM
You know who felt the same way about indigenous Arabs?
Muhammad
While you’re right, that Islam is a dangerous cult, converting them won’t do a bit of good. These people are the scum of the earth, and regularly murder innocent Christian missionaries that arrive there in peace.
How does it feel to be oblivious to something that George Bush understood in its entirety?
leetpriest on September 11, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Allah – You let the door open a little too wide on the last open signup with the JC lib troll. May Allah have mercy on your soul if you insist on spouting off, especially today.
SkinnerVic on September 11, 2008 at 1:04 PM
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Suuuuuure it is.
I don’t really care WHAT the UN or the Vatican think.
Ryan Gandy on September 11, 2008 at 1:06 PM
United Nations legal experts and the Holy See.
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Didn’t you get the memo? Nobody cares what the corrupt, ineffective UN says and the Catholic church, which I am a member of, does not have authority over the United States.
church on September 11, 2008 at 1:09 PM
The trolls here remind me of Fred Phelps crew of goons. This is a very emotional day for a lot of people and times of emotion make people say some things that may not be the most considered statements they’ve made. That doesn’t mean you should come in and play “Gotcha” to make some cheap point. Exhibit some self-control and save it for another day.
Captain Hate on September 11, 2008 at 1:10 PM
That’s exactly what I’m doing, sharing thoughts and mourning.
We all mourn differently. While you might cry or place a flower on a gravestone for the dead others tend to mourn in a different way.
leetpriest on September 11, 2008 at 1:11 PM
Bring in the usual suspects.
Kralizec on September 11, 2008 at 1:11 PM
A Muslim friend of mine once said something similar (though he didn’t quote the Bible). The obvious retort is to ask whose “sword” is God going to use, and on who? My Muslim friend said that 9/11 was Allah’s punishment for what Americans were / had been doing. Applying his reasoning it seems equally clear to me that this Allah particularly dislikes Muslims because he punishes them constantly and their nations are more or less the most miserable on Earth, with most of the good things they have coming from other nations. Was God using the “swords” of the USA and other countries to punish the Iraqis and other Muslims? My Muslim friend went a bit quiet after I suggested this.
Yet part of the attraction of Islam is that it notionally opposes certain bad things that are prevalant in “Western” countries: intoxication, loutish behaviour, fornication and so on. If we want to “convert” Muslims we need to show them something better than Islam but, all too often, they look at the behaviour of non-Muslims and see something quite uncivilised that they quite justifably want no part of. Perhaps Muslims are not the only ones who need to be “converted” and “civilised”.
Incidentally I seem to be responding to your posts in particular. Its nothing personal, honest :).
YiZhangZhe on September 11, 2008 at 1:11 PM
I opposed the sanctions as well, but is another matter. Nevertheless life and death is not a calculus in that you cannot justify that you murder some innocent people even if that very act in some way helps or saves other innocent people (be that number greater or lesser). This is one of the many arguments against abortion. You may not kill the child even if this saves the mother from discomfort and embarrasment in delivering a child conceived through rape. Neither may you kill the baby on purpose to save the life of the mother allthough it is permissible to perform surgery to save the mother even though this comes with a severe risk to the baby. If we go back to Iraq: It is very hard to see though how you could invade another country without the intent to kill the soldiers of that country, especially since they have a right to defend their sovereignty and resist all foreign incursions. Let us also not forget: Par in parem non habet imperium – Like has over like no power/jurisdiction, meaning that the USA has no right to play judge, jury and executioner over other sovereign states in the international arena. Unless the US government could demonstrate that Iraq had in some way attacked he USA, said government had no casus belli against Saddam Hussein and thus no right to go to war, wheter Saddam Hussein had his bedroom stacked to the ceiling with nukes or not.
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 1:11 PM
I’ll say it, yes, we are. We built this country up from nothing in only 300 years. People from all over the world want to come HERE. Not the other way around. I feel for those people, I really do, but they, (radical Islam) started this war, either by fighting in it or being complacent about the nutbags hijacking their religion.
There will always be good. There will always be evil. Therefore, there will always be war, and in war, people die.
Geronimo on September 11, 2008 at 1:12 PM
Good luck with that.
Geronimo on September 11, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Agreed, as long as we keep likes of Sandy Burglar from “rewriting” it…..Unfortunately this crop of angry socialist baby boomers has to thin off from old age until we can collectively appreciate the sacrifices made today as one country again..Thx to all that served, serve and will serve. And to the victims of 9/11 RIP. You are never forgotten by those who care.
Ozprey on September 11, 2008 at 1:18 PM
Unless you have some hard facts to prove what you are saying, get lost you POS.
Rick on September 11, 2008 at 1:20 PM
YiZhangZhe
.
Intoxication, loutish behaviour, fornication and so on is hardly emblematic for Christian civilisation, rather for the absence of said civilisation in many parts of the Western world. It could also be argued that these vices are rather dear to the muslim mind. Islam seem to accept fornication/adultery as long as it is the men doing it (especially with non-muslim women). Rape is consistently blamed on the victim and the men can legally entertain their lusts with four concubines, I would not call them wives. The immoderate consumption of alcohol in the West is mirrored by the islamic prevalence for drugs in various forms from the chewing of leafs to the use of heroin and opiates. As to slovenly behaviour, if this was an olympic sport the muslims would nearly monopolise the gold medals of the local championships of most European cities. Islam has come to Europe as a conquerer and its appeal to the disaffected young is that is violent and permissive of promiscuous behaviour in the name of subjugating the original Christian inhabitants of the continent while at the same time putting on an air of pious fraud which enables said muslims to despise the Westerners and justify their own immoral behaviour.
.
In short, islam can be seen as a system of pious cover of and religious justification for rape, theft, benefit fraud, violence, adultery and physical conquest.
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 1:23 PM
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 1:11 PM
Liberals live in a make believe utopian world they believe should exist, just ask Michelle Obama, not the world as it actually is. So please read the below, grow up and start seeing the world as it is not as you wish it to be.
Experience” is often just a fancy word for the mistakes that we belatedly realized we were making, only after the realities of the world made us pay a painful price for being wrong.
You see we are addressing a mistake we made in the 90’s, which was ignoring all the previous terrorist attacks and treating them as law enforcement issues. Now we are meeting the threat head on. That is the painful price we paid for the wrongs of the Clinton Administration.
church on September 11, 2008 at 1:24 PM
I agree. It was a despicable act of terrorism, but that doesn’t justify attacking Iraq. I am glad that someone has some sense here.
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 1:27 PM
I was on the 26th floor of that same NYU Dorm (200 Water Street) that day with the same view as the film maker (just 6 floors lower down).
It’s not something you forget, though some have definitely tried.
JadeNYU on September 11, 2008 at 1:29 PM
Church
Not everyone who disagrees with you is a liberal! (This may come as a shock to you) I am a conservative that is why I am writing comments on this site.
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 1:30 PM
In the Iraq conflict, it was Iraq versus the UN not Iraq versus the USA. Iraq attacked Kuwait and that led to various UN resolutions that led eventually to war in 1991 followed by 12 years of small attacks and containment and then outright invasion in 2003.
The UN tried to distance itself from the 2003 actions and was largely successful in popular opinion because of the clumsy way that the governments of the USA and the UK (and Mr Blair in particular) handled the matter. Nonetheless the authority for the 2003 action was given by the UN which is not of “like” kind to Iraq.
YiZhangZhe on September 11, 2008 at 1:30 PM
Not everyone who disagrees with you is a liberal! (This may come as a shock to you) I am a conservative that is why I am writing comments on this site.
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 1:30 PM
I simply don’t believe that. So I will agree to respectfully disagree with your description of yourself. But you do amuse me and for that I thank you.
church on September 11, 2008 at 1:33 PM
You left out murder. I do agree, though. This is precisely how I view Islam.
Bugler on September 11, 2008 at 1:35 PM
You are a primitive brute! It disgusts me that you use the nick Church while promoting murder! Next!
If you say that Geronimo, you are a racist. Game over for you. Next!
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 1:39 PM
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 10:57 AM
_______________________________________________
American worse enemy’s is right here, in our on country and that’s people just like you! God I hate you liberal bastards!
try again later on September 11, 2008 at 1:40 PM
We probably largely agree that in the twisted mindset of false piety that Islam engenders a Muslim can see non-Muslims engaging in fornication, intoxication and whatever else is not very good, and use that to justify to himself that Islam is better.
It is a false (apples with oranges style) comparison since he compares the deeds of atheists and Christians with the most noble parts of the Koran instead of comparing two entire ideologies or comparing the deeds and accomplishments of Muslims in general with the deeds and accomplishments of non-Muslims in general. But, of course, if the Muslim was making genuine comparisons between ideologies and communities he probably wouldn’t be a Muslim since in genuine comparisons Islamic ideology and Islamic communities generally score worse than all others.
YiZhangZhe on September 11, 2008 at 1:44 PM
This morning, I was dropping off my son at his high school. There was the usual log jam of cars, and we got off to a few minutes late start today, so we got there just as the 5 minute bell was sounding. He left the car and off to class he bolted. Luckily, he has P.E. first period. So I was able to drop him right at the locker room.
As I was sitting in the long line of cars waiting to leave the school grounds, all of us waiting for the traffic light to cycle green a couple of times so we could get out of there, the second bell rang. Class was now officially started. My driver’s window was down this overcast cool morning, and as I waited for the signal light along with everyone else, I heard something quite unexpected on the school’s Public Address system.
There was an announcement over the PA system. Broadcast outside, and I’m assuming inside the classrooms as well. It was very loud, and it was very clear. It actually startled me as the voice began booming through the school’s loudspeakers. The voice was unmistakable. It was my son’s school principal. He was making an announcement about 9/11/2001. He has a unique voice that sounds like he used to be a sportscaster or something. Or maybe a radio DJ at one time. He started out announcing to all the students, and everyone within earshot in the entire neighborhood, that today was the 7th year anniversary of a “horrible and heinous attack on America by terrorists”. My ears perked. I looked in my rear view mirror and the lady behind me seemed to be tuned in too. The principals voice boomed over the PA system as he gave a short synopsis as to what had happened on 09/11/2001.
He announced the event, the times, the buildings, and the number of lives lost. He announced the sacrifices of “the brave firefighters, police, and citizens who gave their lives trying to help innocent victims of terror.” He announced that terrorists from “foreign lands” were responsible, and that the same “terrorist elements from foreign lands” have “wrought untold misery” on their own countries and their own people “across the globe”.
I was beyond shocked.
I looked around at several of the cars now, and everyone was stopped and listening. When the principal ended his announcement, the principal announced one minute of silence “…in memory of the 9/11 victims and their family’s”. After the one minute was over, the school’s loud speakers boomed the American National Anthem. I think the traffic light cycled green three times, and no one moved. No one drove away. No one honked their horns trying to drive away. We ALL sat and listened until the National Anthem was done. Then the principal said “Thank You for listening”.
As I started to drive away from the school, I began to realize what had just happened. My son’s high school, in Southern California, had just commemorated a tragic event in our nation’s history, identified the culprits, and paid respect to the victims, their families, and to our entire country, on a booming loudspeaker system OUTSIDE. It was also a truthful reminder and a history lesson to his students. I was shocked and amazed. This is a public school… in California. None of those kids were over 11-years old when 9/11 happened. My son was 8-years old. He remembers that day though, and we talked about it a little bit this morning before school and on the way. I am very proud of the school and the school principal.
I don’t know if that was a district wide thing, or just my son’s school that did that. Knowing this school district like I do though, it was not a District wide thing. They’re righteous puppets of the California liberal education system and the blame-game agenda, which was the crux of the reason for my shock. I hope the principal doesn’t get in dutch over his few minutes respect paid to everyone touched and affected by 9/11/2001.
I called the school after I got home from running a few errands. I wasn’t able to speak to the principal, but I was connected to his voice mail system, and I left him a short and very polite thank you message.
SilverStar830 on September 11, 2008 at 1:45 PM
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 1:39 PM
You know what they say about assuming? Well you just proved it.I cannot tell you how many times liberals have attacked my name assuming that I am making some religious statement. One actually accused me of condoning the church shootings that recently happened while making an assumption. Liberals love to think they have an evagelical on the hook for some hypocrisy. Well for your edification I am not an evangelical so you can cool your jets on that one. My actual name is Church. It holds no significance other than being the last name of the man I married. Once again you amuse me.
church on September 11, 2008 at 1:51 PM
1) We are not talking about the Kuwait war (sigh!)
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2) The 2003 invasion was separate from teh Kuwait war
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3) The UN confers diplomatic legitimacy to sanctions/war but not judicial legitimacy. Only the ultra liberals claim otherwise since that would mean that the UN is a World Government. In fact it doesn’t matter how many countries you stuff into the UN building or with how big a majority you take the decision, it is still just a vote of states without jurisdicion over other states. Example: If you have 5 brothers and they call a vote and take the majority decision to confiscate your allowance that is still not legitimate, even with a vote tally of 5 to 1 since your brotehrs do not have authority over you. Only your parents ahve the right to make such a decision.
.
4)The only body in world history ever to have invoked and been recognized as having supreme powers of review, arbitration and exaction is the Holy See based on the Supreme Pontiffs title as Vicar of Christ. This era though (tragically) ended with the Peace of Westphalia of 1648 and since then the world has been in a so called mature anarchic state.
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 1:52 PM
Text of Rallying Speech by Col. Frank Wiercinski, Commander, 3rd Brigade, 101st Airborne, commander of ground forces for Operation Anaconda addressing troops of the 101st Airborne, 10th Mountain Division and Army helicopter crews on Friday night, March 1 [2002], the eve of the attack, standing on a hummer on the tarmac in front of old Soviet era airplane hangar at Bagram Air Base, Afghanistan:
“It’s Friday night and everybody here has been invited to the party– hua! (cheering and huas from the troops).
“I’m gonna get serious with you for a minute. Everyone of our generation has been called to do something for his country. We are no different. We have been called on to fight the war on terrorism. You are part of that fight.
“Every man, every woman has some defining moments in their lives. Today is one of your defining moments. You will never forget this. You will never forget that man or woman on your right or left. You will never forget the fact that you stood here in Afghanistan in one of your defining moments. Remember that for the rest of your life. Because it’s important, its very important. Like the Sgt. Major said you need to be proud of yourselves. You are representing your country.
“A lot of us have two questions always going through our minds: Why? How will I do? As for “Why?” each and everyone of you has to answer that for yourself.
For me it’s 9-11, for those families that watched as their loved ones never came home. For those firefighters, emergency workers and policemen who charged up rather than came down. It’s for them. We do this for them.
KillerKane on September 11, 2008 at 1:54 PM
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Lawl. You sound like the typical self-righteous “enlightened” liberal, calling everyone who disagrees with you racist, sexist, primitive or some other stupid crap.
Disgusting.
Ryan Gandy on September 11, 2008 at 1:54 PM
That’s a great story SilverStar, and very suprising considering it’s in SoCal. Awesome just the same.
Geronimo on September 11, 2008 at 1:58 PM
Are you saying that Iraqi lives are worth less than American lives? JC Silverberg
I’ll say it, yes, we are. Geronimo
If you say that Geronimo, you are a racist. Game over for you. Next!
JC Silverberg on September 11, 2008 at 1:39 PM
For your edification. Definition of racism: Racism is prejudice or discrimination based on the belief that race is the primary factor determining human traits and abilities. Racism includes the belief that genetic or inherited differences produce the inherent superiority or inferiority of one race over another. …
Your nationality is not your race. America contains many races, as do most countries. Therefore, Geronimo is not a racist. If you have to label him/her Nationalist would be more accurate. Silly liberal. But you are entertaining.
church on September 11, 2008 at 2:01 PM
You’re acting as if you’ve made some great argument by spinning and one-lining a few people that have a differing opinion.
However, you fail to respond to posts that have smashed your theories and make stronger arguments against what you say without even batting an eye.
Do you think you’re actually……winning an argument here? You’re attempting to compare a military action with military targets following the rules of war and the Geneva conventions to a cowardly act by a terrorist organization on a CIVILIAN-ONLY structure killing innocent civilians for the purpose of killing innocent civilians.
Yet you think you have a point to make. Tell me, friend, how many civilian structures did we intentionally target that contained only unarmed civilians within the structure during the Iraq war? After answering this, please provide your source, so that I know exactly where you’re soaking the BS up from.
Also, I assume that the figures you’ve provided for Iraqi civilian deaths also show Saddam’s political prisoners, and include children that we weren’t able to release, correct?
I await your response, you military genius, you!
leetpriest on September 11, 2008 at 2:02 PM
I have never understood this line of reasoning. I see no running “balance sheet” of lives in the Iraqi conflict or any of the conflicts, murders, and injustices that men have perpetuated on each other over the centuries with you as the self-appointed accountant.
I believe all men are created equal. Through our actions, each of us determines the “worth” of our own lives, not the lives of others.
If, through our actions, we dehumanize others and perpetrate evil, then we have devalued ourselves. Setting aside any 9/11 connections, Saddam Hussein’s regime was clearly evil. Those who supported it, devalued themselves.
The war we are waging in Iraq has been conducted in a way that minimizes the effect on innocent civilians, at considerable risk to our own soldiers. Innocent lives that are lost in this conflict are a tragic consequence of a society that was infected with an evil – not Islam, but Saddam Hussein and Islamic radical factions seeking to gain control of the void he left behind. Yes, the civilian (non-combatant) casualties are victims, but we are not the root cause of their suffering.
The world is a better place for the sacrifices made in this conflict. In my estimation, the balance sheet is as equitable as it can be. President Bush is a good accountant.
Y-not on September 11, 2008 at 2:08 PM
We were already there, Silverberg. There were no fly zones, and the WMD concerns (along with the inspector issues) had been taking place for a long time prior to 2003. In fact, we had already conducted a similar invasion for the exact same reason as in 2003 – - Operation Desert Fox.
Rick on September 11, 2008 at 2:08 PM
…and thus, like it always is on the interwebs, a few brain damaged disrespectful selfish people have to come along on a day of rememberance, in a thread commemorating a real life tragedy, and play the blame-game, pointing fingers, expelling their excrement from the wrong end, vomiting forth their platitudes, and all the while they take some great sick satisfaction in doing so while never paying one scintilla’s worth of respect to anyone else.
Shame on you disrespectful selfish bastards.
SilverStar830 on September 11, 2008 at 2:09 PM
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