Trig Palin’s threat to the abortion industry
posted at 9:30 am on September 11, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
A Canadian doctor expressed concern that Sarah Palin’s decision to give birth to Trig, who has Down’s Syndrome, may have negative consequences for women in his nation and elsewhere. How so? Instead of getting abortions 90% of the time, Dr. Andre Lalonde says, more women may discover that they can deal with the challenge of such a child, and refuse abortions. Quelle horreur!
Sarah and Todd Palin’s decision to complete her recent pregnancy, despite advance notice that their baby Trig had Down syndrome, is hailed by many in the pro-life movement as walking the walk as well as talking the talk.
But a senior Canadian doctor is now expressing concerns that such a prominent public role model as the governor of Alaska and potential vice president of the United States completing a Down syndrome pregnancy may prompt other women to make the same decision against abortion because of that genetic abnormality. And thereby reduce the number of abortions.
Published reports in Canada say about 9 out of 10 women given a diagnosis of Down syndrome choose to terminate the pregnancy through abortion.
Dr. Andre Lalonde, executive vice president of the Society of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in Ottawa, worries that Palin’s now renowned decision may cause abortions in Canada to decline as other women there and elsewhere opt to follow suit.
This sounds more like the abortion industry worrying over a declining demand than a physician caring for a patient. Parents of DS children manage to have fulfilling lives, and they would say because of their child and not despite the decision to give birth. The Palins do provide a role model in that manner, as do the millions of other parents with such children who get no special attention for their love and sacrifice.
What kind of doctor looks at this situation and says, “The worry is that this will have an implication for abortion issues in Canada”? Does the sight of a strong family represent that great a threat to the abortion industry in Canada or elsewhere? The SOGC tried recovering from this statement by insisting that doctors don’t push women carrying DS children into abortions, but a Down’s Syndrome support group says that’s simply false:
Members of Canada’s Down syndrome community say that many of the country’s medical professionals only give messages of fear to parents who learn their baby will be born with the genetic condition.
“It’s very dark,” said Krista Flint, executive director of the Canadian Down Syndrome Society. “They hear a lot about the medical conditions that are sometimes associated with Down syndrome. They hear about the burden … it places on children and a marriage. They hear about things like shortened life expectancy. They hear a lot about the challenges of a life with Down syndrome.”
Given Lalonde’s primary concern as stated by Lalonde himself, the fear seems to be that abortionists might have to deal with fewer customers.
Blowback
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These are stories that are withheld from the public whenever abortions are discussed.
How many healthy babies are discarded out of fear, misplaced fear.
The wealthiest society in the world can provide for any child…
right2bright on September 11, 2008 at 10:31 AM
My brother Jim, who has Down’s syndrome, was born 46 years ago, last May. He didn’t breathe at birth, and the doctor paid no attention to the fact. I have always suspected that he tried to let Jim die. As a result, Jim didn’t breathe for 10 minutes. The only reason that he survived was that my father was in the delivery room. He, too, was a doctor, and he realized, belatedly, that the baby wasn’t crying. He cleared Jim’s air passages and Jim survived.
Jim has none of the physical problems associated with Down’s. On the tests done since, it was found that he has only a fraction of an extra chromosome. It is now the opinion of several experts that if not for the fact that he didn’t breathe at birth, any mental impairment would have been virtually imperceptible.
Even so, he has done amazingly well. He can add and subtract, and read, due to my mother’s tireless efforts with him. Today, he lives with my husband and me. He works every day, doing janitorial duties, and rides the bus to and from work. He loves to bowl, and is very good at it.
The point of this is that children with Down’s syndrome (not “Down”, and not “a Down kid”) may have severe problems, but they also may not, and they can often do surprising things. My father apparently thought my brother was worth saving, even if the delivery room doctor did not.
The Hippocratic Oath requires that a doctor first “do no harm”. This doctor who is more worried about the abortion industry than about innocent human beings has no business in the medical profession.
hachiban on September 11, 2008 at 10:32 AM
Better be careful, someone might decide that your life isn’t worth preserving.
TooTall on September 11, 2008 at 10:32 AM
I pity the suckers who fall for the pro-life rhetoric and get stuck taking care of a Down’s child. It’s not going to be a picnic for them. When it was politically allowed to study families of badly handicapped child, they found quite unhappy families.
thuja on September 11, 2008 at 10:34 AM
Enrique –
Let’s talk. You have, in one post, spouted nearly all of the ‘scary’ myths about having a child with Down syndrome.
I’ll wager to say that I know many many more parents of children with Down syndrome than you do. They are not putting on an “act.” The truth of the matter is – Down syndrome is not that big of a deal. In fact a lot of studies done, show just the opposite of what you are spouting.
How sad that you personally equate a person’s worth with their IQ. That’s basically what your post is saying and you can’t fathom that anyone would think any differently than you. My life is fulfilled and perhaps more fulfilled than if I did not have my son, Josh, in my life. I also believe that Josh has enriched the lives of his siblings and has changed my marriage for the better. This is not a story of exception – but it is, indeed, the rule.
Yes, there are families whose child with Down syndrome has more medical issues, however, THEY are the exception and not the rule. Regarding the 50% statistic on heart issues. My son falls into that category. He was born with a PDA (Patent Ductus Arteriosus) – a tiny hole in the heart. By 11 days old, it had closed, but he was still counted in that 50%. Those whose children had to undergo heart surgeries in that first year are thankful for the technology and once past the ordeal – they are living typical lives as very happy families.
The life span of a person with Down syndrome is about 50 – 55 right now. It will probably be higher when my son is older – but now I’ve just given you the argument of my son out-living me. Thank God he has a house full of siblings who love him. Oh No – I’ve given you the argument that he will be a burden upon them. And I say again, Thank God they love him.
I know you will not change your mind about this because you simply cannot relate to the real situation. But for goodness sake – please stop spouting untruths about Down syndrome and learn a little. My son has mental retardation because of his Down syndrome – which means he learns more slowly than others. You, Enrique are holding onto ignorance, which means you won’t learn at all.
Candy Slice on September 11, 2008 at 10:34 AM
It’s true! Even the most important text ever written by humankind, the Roe v. Wade decision, concurs, and I quote:
“Mental and physical health may be taxed by child care.”
Shocker! It took how many people in black robes to come up with that one?
saint kansas on September 11, 2008 at 10:35 AM
How about you cite that data, please.
SuzEQCitizen on September 11, 2008 at 10:35 AM
That ARC comercial (do a search on YouTube to see what I”m talking about) from the 80s seems more relevent now then ever.
“Don’t throw us away.”
DethMetalCookieMonst on September 11, 2008 at 10:35 AM
Misery is where you find it, Enrique. Suffering, like joy, assumes myriad forms and there is no life not touched by it to one degree or another.
In that sense, this is ultimately a pro-choice universe: you can choose to go on living or choose to go on dying. Either way, the choice is yours and the consequences of your decision are the difference between a life that is the Calvary before Heaven or a foretaste of Hell.
My two-pence, for what it’s worth.
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 10:36 AM
Hachiban,
Thanks for the post.
poljunkie on September 11, 2008 at 10:36 AM
Scary thought Mr. Joe. Isn’t this what we can expect from US government-provided universal health care? The pressure to abort because of the cost to the state? What other medical choices and life and death decisions will be taken from us in the name of cost and popular culture?
blue sky on September 11, 2008 at 10:37 AM
I know a couple who were told in the early months of the wife’s pregnancy that the baby had DS. This was their first pregnancy after several years of trying to conceive, and they were devastated. The husband wanted to abort, but the wife refused. It almost ended their marriage. But once their little girl was born, the husband fell in love with her. She’s 11 years old now, and her father says she is the greatest blessing of his life, and he will always be grateful to his wife for saying no when he pressured her to abort.
AZCoyote on September 11, 2008 at 10:37 AM
The posts by Enrique and thuga belong on the “elitist” thread, not this one.
Since they are both convinced that there personal opinions trump the real life experiences of all the others who have posted.
MarkTheGreat on September 11, 2008 at 10:38 AM
First of all, Down syndrome is not considered “badly handicapped.” It’s ignorance like yours that actually scares women into having abortions. Those are the women you should feel bad for. Down syndrome is not a big deal at all.
Candy Slice on September 11, 2008 at 10:38 AM
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 10:36 AM
Beautifully stated, thank you.
SuzEQCitizen on September 11, 2008 at 10:38 AM
thuja at 10:34
Studies show that the children most likely to be abused are super-wanted children.
Life is never a picnic. If you expect it to be, you will end up resenting (and destroying) what you have even when to someone else it is picture-perfect.
As Sarah Palin said, a special needs child creates a special kind of love. Keep your pity; it may well keep you from ever knowing love.
justincase on September 11, 2008 at 10:39 AM
Translation: “People may stop loving themselves first and instead put others first.”
shick on September 11, 2008 at 10:41 AM
But… somewhere in the United States Constitution is your right to a picnic. We just need to appoint the right judges to find it.
saint kansas on September 11, 2008 at 10:46 AM
Ironic isn’t it?
Libs think if you won’t kill a baby you are not tough enough to be VP.
The double speak begins.
They feel that if you want to be in politcs and a woman you can’t let the birth of a child get in your way so abort it. Yet thay confess to being good Christians.
“Thou Shall not Kill”
Thats what Christians believe.
Pro Choice = Not letting the semen get to the egg. After that it’s in Gods hands.
The libs want to interceede in God’s will and choose death to being bothered in their goals.
I belive in abortion only if it had have been carried out by the mothers of thoes who now support it or if the mothers life is in danger.
Just think if the mothers of Pelosi,Reid,”O” Dumby and the others who support it had aborted them?
Rick007 on September 11, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Be honest now. You don’t really pity them…one must have a loving heart in order to feel pity.
You despise them.
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 10:49 AM
But what McCain and Palin want to do is to make abortion illegal in cases like this, as well as almost all other ones.
That sounds elitist to me.
jim m on September 11, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Just over 15 years ago, our second son was born. An ultrasound early in the pregnancy tagged him as high risk for Down’s Syndrome. It was a good thing in that it forced my wife and I to think about why we value life and what ‘normal’ really is. However, I was not prepared at all for the intense pressure to abort from the medical staff where the ultrasound was done.
Obviously, our son was born and did not have the extra chromosome. Today he is second chair Violinist in his high school orchestra (as a Sophomore).
How many children without Down’s Syndrome have been aborted because of a possible indicator and pressure from the Medical establishment?
King of Fools on September 11, 2008 at 10:50 AM
Your post would have made more sense if you said it sounded, maybe, self-righteous to you. Elitist is more along the lines of killing someone because you believe he is worth less than you because his IQ might be lower than you find acceptable.
Candy Slice on September 11, 2008 at 10:52 AM
Then consider having your hearing evaluated, as you appear to be going deaf. There is nothing elitist about defending the unalienable right to life of all innocent human beings.
Or do you believe that some innocent human beings may be disposed of at will?
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 10:53 AM
From the other article, quoting Ed:
Elitism is a sense that the hoi polloi are simply incapable of governing themselves, let alone a nation, and that a small group of “experts” have to take control of everything they do. That goes far beyond mere matters of state. Elitists see people getting more obese and believe that government has to intervene to remove food choices from individuals, as one rather timely example, as in New York City. They believe that removing personal choices will keep people from making bad decisions, because they — in all their wisdom — will make the right choices for them.
So, explain to me why McCain/Palin aren’t being elitist in this instance because they are saying the people facing this issue won’t be allowed to make the decision to abort.
jim m on September 11, 2008 at 10:58 AM
This really sends the message home; Pro-choice = No-choice or Abortion-only.
I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that the Pro-choice crowd expects intelligent people to only choose abortion whenever there is any problem with a pregnancy.
Both of my daughters had complications, one was diagnosed with CP. The thought that we would have aborted our children just makes me sick at my stomach to even contemplate. These people are truly grotesque in that they completely ignore the thought that abortion could possibly (for me, its a certainty) be “killing” a human child. Once the child is born do they then say, “Oh, it has issues, let’s kill it to prevent it from having to ‘suffer’”? Of course they do, death on demand, especially if they are Republicans/Conservatives.
I was reading Laura Ingraham’s book the other night and when I got to the part about partial birth abortions, I read it out loud to my wife. My wife was astounded to hear that it was legal to perform such a procedure at one time. How people/humans can pursue legalizing partial birth abortions (the Obamas for example) or vote against giving medical aid to children that survive abortions (again, Obama) is totally incomprehensible to me. Its beyond what Hitler did, because he thought of Jews and gypsies as inhuman, these are people that do it to their own offspring and desire it to be made legal for all!
Really, just sickening.
Geministorm on September 11, 2008 at 11:00 AM
Me too. I have a cousin with DS, and he is the sweetest guy you’ll ever meet. He is in his early 40′s now, and is loved by us all.
StephC on September 11, 2008 at 11:03 AM
The boy was sent to open our eyes – there can be no other explanation. God bless him and I thank God for sending him to us.
Fuquay Steve on September 11, 2008 at 11:07 AM
<blockquoteThe posts by Enrique and thuga belong on the “elitist” thread, not this one.
Since they are both convinced that there personal opinions trump the real life experiences of all the others who have posted.
MarkTheGreat on September 11, 2008 at 10:38 AM
Simply not true. I’ve talked to many women who think that their decision to abort was one of the best decisions that they’ve made in life. It’s their real life experience.
thuja on September 11, 2008 at 11:08 AM
The elitism defined by Ed argues that people are too stupid to govern their own lives and therefore must be governed to keep them from harming themselves.
It is not elitist when the government tells us we may not harm others. That is why we have laws prohibiting murder.
I hope this helps.
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 11:10 AM
Of that I have no doubt. One can find as many terrorists who think that snuffing out innocent lives was one of the best decisions they ever made. It is, after all, their real life experience, n’est pas?
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 11:13 AM
I have a cousin born with Down. He’s 33 now and while perpetually childlike, is able to work at a fast food place. He’s a delightful, affectionate guy and we love him to pieces.
whitetop on September 11, 2008 at 11:15 AM
I didn’t know that Dr. Mengele had relatives in Canada – until now.
bill30097 on September 11, 2008 at 11:18 AM
jim m on September 11, 2008 at 10:58 AM
A person will always have the right to choose everything in their life. Laws dictate what the society’s response to a given choice will be.
For instance, you can rob a bank. If you do, though, you have advance warning that the society as a whole may lock you in a jail.
Some choices are everybody’s business because those actions threaten us all. As a society we band together to apply peer pressure to those who would harm any one of us.
If a father spends 20 years raping his daughter and keeping her locked up in a dungeon it is society’s business because the society bands together to tell every father that we will defend his daughter’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
If a mother strangles her two-year-old because he won’t eat his peas, it is my business because that 2-year-old belongs to the brotherhood of humanity.
If a mother refuses to feed her one-month-old or even puts him in a trash can it is my business. Once there is an innocent human life being trashed, it becomes the business of us all.
Do you agree?
justincase on September 11, 2008 at 11:19 AM
A couple points, from a Canadian physician, and long time admirer (no: more like a fanboy really) of Allapundit, and a lurker who only registered recently.
1. Nobody should ever be pressured into an abortion by the presentation of facts, and I am sure that parents are sometimes pressured. For this Dr to start worrying about Palin seems odd, and I agree that he’s out of line. It would be reasonable to say that celebrity experences can alter how patients see diseases (up here, your politicians are all celebrities to most people), and that sometimes this can lead to unrealistic perceptions of medical conditions. Further, in Canada, a physician is REQUIRED BY LAW, after having made a medical diagnosis, to discuss and present the legal options available to the patient. Down syndrome is a medical diagnosis, and terminationg the pregnancy is a legal procedure in canada. Don’t get mad at me for saying that: its a plain fact. BUT I repeat: Lalonde is out of line here: if people keep their pregnancies, he should not worry about them having made a bad decision and try and get inside their heads to change their decision making process, he should worry about making sure everybody gets taken care of. That’s his job as a physician: he isn’t respecting the capacity of his patients to make up their own minds, however they dang well please.
2. HOWEVER: Lalonde is right that parents need facts. The cognitive impairment of Down syndrome (yes: that’s deliberate: syndromes don’t get an apostrophe: it is Down syndrome, not Down’s syndrome) is not the most difficult aspect of the syndrome: severe congenital heart disease and other significant visceral malformations can mean a world of pain for the child. Its also true that these are a minority of Down syndrome. It is also true that families break up, people get depressed, and occasionally kill themselves, because fo children who are ill. Its also true that such extreme responses are rare, but they are not trivial.
3. Lalonde is a Canadian physician: abortions here are not a lucrative industry for anyone around here, and gynecologists aren’t exactly begging for work. The idea floated by some that somehow he’s speaking on behalf of a monied interest threatened by Palin is, I am sorry, not really gonna fly.
HiHo on September 11, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Manly Rash, you are always so concisely profound. Thank you for being here.
justincase on September 11, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Dr. Mengeles, acid solution and skull crush thyself.
saved on September 11, 2008 at 11:23 AM
There are days when I am not a bloviating ass. This appears to be one of them. :-)
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 11:25 AM
I guess some people (including a few posters here) can’t figure out that a child afflicted with a hereditary disease might still be wanted. And, after all, isn’t that their mantra — that a child’s worth to its mother determines whether it ought to be allowed to live, and that the child does not have any intrinsic right to life not bestowed by its mother.
Sarah Palin, by that logic, has bestowed upon her child the right to life by virtue of deciding not to take that life away, as was her legal right. She has made her child human by that very same logic. Hence, the abortionists have no further right to second guess her.
unclesmrgol on September 11, 2008 at 11:28 AM
Look, the baby killers, I mean Democraps have control of both houses. For the foreseeable future, there will be no changes to the abortion laws currently on the books.
There are 306 million people in America. We cannot take care of them all. Let them have the choice to destroy their bodies.
Mazztek on September 11, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Marissa is my 4 year old ray of sunshine. Although she has Downs (and had all of the associated heart defects that go with the syndrome) I see her as an amazing strong, positive and hopeful person.
3 years ago a woman I know found out she was pregnant with a Downs child and she opted to abort. I know it is wrong of me. But I judge her. I see her as weak, negative and pessimistic. And she doesn’t even have Downs.
I hope I someday gain the strength to accept and positively influence these people too.
watson007 on September 11, 2008 at 11:31 AM
Allow me to bring this thread full circle by repeating what I said earlier:
There is no greater threat to the “pro-choice” crowd than a woman who chooses life.
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 11:32 AM
You know, I could believe that you’ve talked to many women who think their decision to abort was probably the right decision at the time, even though it was difficult.
But to think it was one of the best decisions they’ve made in their life??
There are words for that — de Nile.
BigD on September 11, 2008 at 11:37 AM
I started a longer comment and decided to delete it. This is one of the most ridiculous comments I’ve seen at Hot Air.
First, it’s untrue. Second, it demonstrates a lack of understanding of how the three branches of the federal government function and of our country’s system of federalism. Finally, it ignores the realities of the timing of the vacancy of Supreme Court positions; the resulting nomination and confirmation of succeeding justices; and the positions taken by all the justices when faced with actual cases (Souter, for example, has turned to be anything but a conservative).
In short, McCain-Palin are adamantly pro-life. But I’ve seen and heard nothing to suggest that either is inclined or will have the political ability to engage in an activist agenda to overturn Roe. Under the current climate, they may support elimination of federal funding for abortions, they may support elimination of federal funding of Planned Parenthood, and they may nominate conservative justices for any vacancies in the Supreme Court. So what? Not one of those efforts would make abortion illegal.
Please get a high school text on the U.S. government and read it before commenting in this manner again.
BuckeyeSam on September 11, 2008 at 11:39 AM
You, sir, are a piece of human debris.
fossten on September 11, 2008 at 11:42 AM
Obviously, murdering a human being is the only responsible thing to do in these cases. I mean, we wouldn’t want life to be difficult for anyone, now would we?
It IS an obvious decision, because the alternative involves killing someone.
If you happen to think that someone achieves human being status at some point after birth, I can understand that. I vehemently disagree, but I understand.
Otherwise … I just don’t know.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 11, 2008 at 11:42 AM
Bad for abortionists….Good for pediatricians….Better for the little guys and gals that will see the light of day. Also better for the parents that won’t have to deal with the guilt they would have felt.
I know a married couple who have run a crisis pregnancy center (with multiple locations) for years. At one time, the wife had been a receptionist in an abortion “clinic”. Her job was to get the pregnant “patient” into the “clinic”, and keep her there. Its a business people, and a rotten business to boot.
If abortion is “healthcare”, napalm is weed killer.
tgharris on September 11, 2008 at 11:45 AM
Well, I may not agree with the “sent” part, but I have to say that this has really started me re-thinking my views on Downs Syndrome.
For that, I am grateful.
Count to 10 on September 11, 2008 at 11:46 AM
This is a study on how to hijack a thread, try to make the thread about them.
No body with an ounce of common sense would make such an accusation.
thuja, you do this often, you may get some remarks towards you, which then you feel somewhat important, but what it also carries with it a stigma of ignorance and pity.
You are willing to accept a few moments of people making you a center of conversation, and in exchange understand that we think you are a pitiful, boring, ignorant, foolish, little person. We read your posts to amuse us and keep us aware that there are really people like you who actually think like you…it amazes me that you could survive in this world…
right2bright on September 11, 2008 at 11:49 AM
I’d like this little chestnut posted again so that everyone can see it. It’s revealing.
TheUnrepentantGeek on September 11, 2008 at 11:52 AM
The point is, it is not “their” bodies they are destroying. They don’t own human life. I wouldn’t mind if they committed suicide so they wouldn’t have to deal with the birth (as long as the baby was born first). That seems reasonable to me. Give birth then commit suicide so you won’t have to deal with the hassle.
Or how about the doctor flipping a coin…heads the mom dies, tales we kill the baby…
right2bright on September 11, 2008 at 11:52 AM
You would think that those on the left who are criticizing the Palin’s for not terminating Trig and Bristol’s pregnancies would think about their own candidate. If Obama’s teenage, unmarried mother had had an abortion, as they seem to wish Bristol would do, their would be no Obama.
exhelodrvr on September 11, 2008 at 11:56 AM
@ HiHo on September 11, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Are women in Canada given realistic information or fatalistic and often false information as they are given here in the US by many Genetic Counselors/Doctors.
Here in the US a laundry list of worst case scenarios is given.
I have a son with Down syndrome and got pregnant again when he was three. I went to see a new OB/Gyn because we were in a new town. I told the OB/Gyn that I didn’t require Genetic Counseling (due to my age) because I already had a child with Down syndrome and knew what my chances were. The doctor’s next sentence, “Would you like to terminate then?”
Most doctors have a fatalistic view of people with Down syndrome often based on the list of possibilities on paper and have no clue that the reality is completely different. I think that because of Sarah Palin, we might see more of the reality of Down syndrome…and I’m not meaning her life and her situation but those of us that will speak out more now and those of us who will be asked more about it because of her.
Candy Slice on September 11, 2008 at 11:58 AM
Correct. Let’s send all those 25 million or so illegals home and there will be more resources for all. Oh, and libtards, hang yourselves…..or at least don’t procreate. Either one is fine by me.
/half sarc
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on September 11, 2008 at 12:02 PM
I’m still waiting on him to cite the data. Methinks I shouldn’t hold my breath.
SuzEQCitizen on September 11, 2008 at 12:04 PM
BINGO!
Nahanni on September 11, 2008 at 12:04 PM
“This sounds more like the abortion industry worrying over a declining demand than a physician caring for a patient.”
————-
Really? You really believe that? Because it’s a preposterous thing to say. And to call women who have abortions “customers” is disgraceful and sick.
Your predictable cherry picking of the article leaves out
“…may inadvertently influence other women who may lack the necessary emotional and financial support to do the same” Until you’ve been on those shoes, you really have no place commenting and especially judging the actions of those who have been there. Palin made an incredibly brave decision to keep the baby, but that was based on her life situation, which, of course, is completely unique.
But hey – with all the crybabying about Canadians coming here with opinions on American affairs that are not welcome, how come suddenly you’re all commenting on Canadian affairs? Perhaps a steaming cup of stfu is in order.
Dave Rywall on September 11, 2008 at 12:06 PM
Candy Slice, I don’t counsel pregnant women. I think the approach varies between MDs, but how much, I do not know. I don’t know of any good, objective studies on this particular clinical interaction: it is certainly an extremely sensitive topic, and some objective, quantitative, careful and scholarly analysis is badly needed. I really cannot (and being completely serious, I doubt anyone can) tell you what the “usual” scenario is.
Many MDs worry that patients are “unduly” pressured to keep pregnancies, others worry that patients are “unduly” pressured to terminate. Past that vague statement, I cannot say how many of each do what.
With regard to the rest, all I can say is G-d bless you and keep you and yours.
HiHo on September 11, 2008 at 12:09 PM
From what I understand, even if Rowe were reversed it wouldn’t outlaw abortion. It would simply send the matter back to the states so that the people rather than the courts could decide for themselves. Why is that so bad?
hachiban on September 11, 2008 at 12:10 PM
Your point might also be making an argument against birth control. Stopping a sperm that is about to fertilize an egg doesn’t interfere with God’s plan, but preventing implantation on the uterine wall does?
Pelosi, Obama, Palin all might not be here if their parents had conceived at a different hour or different month. The chances of any of us being here are slim. If someone is the descendant of an unplanned 10th child does that become a rationale for everyone to have 10 unplanned children? Should a baby born to a teen mother, an undeniably loved and wonderful baby, encourage other teens to create babies?
dedalus on September 11, 2008 at 12:14 PM
Spoken like the true Stalinist you are, Dave.
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 12:15 PM
If Roe is overturned – which it should be – the matter will revert to the states (where it properly belongs). The people, through their elected representatives, will decide the matter after debating it in the political arena. This is as it should be.
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 12:18 PM
It would probably be a good thing for the democratic process, it wouldn’t seem to significantly reduce access to abortion though. Also, few if any states states would define murder as the taking of life from the moment of conception on.
dedalus on September 11, 2008 at 12:19 PM
Spoken like the true Stalinist you are, Dave.
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 12:15 PM
———-
Just pointing out the curious behaviour of Hotair people who can’t seem to make up their minds.
Dave Rywall on September 11, 2008 at 12:19 PM
It is so incredible to fathom that there are people who resent this child’s existence.
To these people, life has no value.
And on this 9/11, when we remember that there were people who attacked us, who valued death over life, due to their hatred of us, it’s very difficult for me to separate the people who attacked us from the people who are so threatened by this helpless child
ToddonCapeCod on September 11, 2008 at 12:22 PM
Sounds more like you are reacting to people who have made up their minds regarding the highly profitable abortion industry which, let’s be honest here, perceives pregnant women in distress as little more than a market demographic.
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 12:26 PM
Is your criticism of medicine for profit limited only to the practice of abortion. Should we outlaw marketing by doctors generally?
dedalus on September 11, 2008 at 12:31 PM
Another good one from Joe Plugs. This came from a Dumbocrat debate and checked by FactCheck.org.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on September 11, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Maybe some do, but I would bet the vast majority of parents who have DS children face a lifetime of hardship and turmoil. How can you possibly be fulfilled as a parent knowing your child will never be normal? Your child will never experience the fullness of life, and very likely they will die relatively young. DS children require MUCH more emotional and financial support than normal children.
Unbelievable.
You, sir, are an Obamanation.
NoFanofLibs on September 11, 2008 at 12:35 PM
As always…follow the (Federal) money.
SouthernGent on September 11, 2008 at 12:35 PM
My best friend in high school had a little sister with DS. She was so much fun, so sweet and just the most beautiful sweetest spirit of a person that I have ever known. She unfortunately died young from one of her developmental disabilities, around 16, and we were devastated.
She was not a burden, she was a joy to know and I think of her often, how simple her needs were, how much she gave back to all of us through her buoyancy of spirit.
She was the only DS person I ever knew, but knowing her changed my life and helped form my opinion that every single person created has something special that they have to give the world and should be allowed to, that we all suffer (whether we know it or not) when that life is snuffed out.
JustTruth101 on September 11, 2008 at 12:37 PM
The hypochristian pro-life slogan:
If you’re pre-born your precious
If you’re pre-school you’re screwed!
DanKenton on September 11, 2008 at 12:38 PM
Probably those women didn’t want to be “punished” with a child. Action without consequences: the liberal way.
NoFanofLibs on September 11, 2008 at 12:38 PM
Emphasis mine. I’m a bit beside myself over that statement.
Can anyone here explain to me a situation where someone is “unduly” pressured to keep a pregnancy. That is in the context (of the original comment) of the revelation of the medical status of the fetus. (In other words, for now, barring scenarios of rape or incest)
geckomon on September 11, 2008 at 12:39 PM
This article and some of the posts on this thread highlight so very clearly that pro-choice = pro-abortion.
PackerBronco on September 11, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Dedalus 12:14
What difference does it make who “planned” a child’s existence? Once it exists, it exists just like any of us does – endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights (such as) life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Would you agree?
justincase on September 11, 2008 at 12:42 PM
If the family is willing to care for the child with Down’s Syndrome, why shouldn’t they have the child? I had no intention on aborting my youngest, skipped the first blood test (too many false positives and tech support is stressful enough without worrying over potential false positives), but made sure to get every ultrasound I could so I would be prepared. The kid turned out to be normal, BTW.
Now, I think it’s one thing for a family to raise a Down’s child, and quite another if the baby has Down’s Syndrome, and the mother was not planning on keeping it anyway. The best outcomes for children with Down’s involve individualized care and attention—which they would not have a prayer of getting in a state institution.
Sekhmet on September 11, 2008 at 12:43 PM
And yet Hillary was promising to give us universal health care, universal pre-kindergarten, universal…
saint kansas on September 11, 2008 at 12:44 PM
You conflate the practice of healing according to the Hippocratic oath with procured abortion. The former involves efforts to heal the patient, for which the physician is compensated according to the free market.
The latter is murder for hire.
Any more questions?
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 12:45 PM
The one who said this is the real idiot here. I know of a couple in my church who have a 7-year-old daughter with DS. Their marriage has not changed: it has strengthened. In fact, they now have two other children, younger than her. Mind you: he’s Navy, and she stays home with them.
***
I’d love to chat with all of you a bit more, but we’ve been watching the hurricane here at home. (We’re at bit southern South TX, near the coast.) The eastern part of my county has been ordered to evacuate, but it seems my area only has a voluntary order.
Based on all the hurricane tracking maps I’ve seen in the last few hours, it looks like it’s going to land near Freeport – much closer to Galveston than to my home. Our windows are boarded, and every potential projectile is now stored inside. We’re doing laundry and some packing, but it looks very unlikely that we will have more than some rain and winds from the outer bands.
(I survived Hugo. When it actually comes, you either are safe inside a concrete and cement house, our you get the Hell out of dodge.)
newton on September 11, 2008 at 12:45 PM
Well said, sir.
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 12:46 PM
I see your “outrage” [snicker] and raise you:
Calling abortion of a helpless child in the womb a “woman’s rights issue” beyond disgraceful and sick.
geckomon on September 11, 2008 at 12:47 PM
I remember Hugo – I was a little girl, scary times. Hope the storm blows over like a breeze, and that nothing is harmed. : )
Anna on September 11, 2008 at 12:47 PM
Many of us here think that you are short on morals. What if others had the power to decide that morally depraved people shouldn’t have to burden their parents or society as a whole? Should you be killed simpy because others think you have less to offer society and more of a burden to carry?
Your thinking is that of an animal. Fortunately for you the society in which you are apart of still values your life despite your lack of moral compass.
shick on September 11, 2008 at 12:48 PM
she’s no threat to abortion…. abortion will always “be” if you make it illegal you’ll just be picking your dead daughters up from alleys where the backalley abortion clinics leave them when they die on the table because they couldn’t go to a real doctor…
no amount of god or religion will ever stop it… then there’s that pesky constitution to deal with… and then there’s that thing in the bible… you know, free will…
p.s. it’s not “alive” until it can live on it’s own outside the body… until then it’s just a part of your own body which if you want to cut off your own hand… be my guest.
Kaptain Amerika on September 11, 2008 at 12:50 PM
Wouldn’t make a good bumper sticker, Dan. Too clumsly structured.
How about this: All Humans Have a Right to Life
ManlyRash on September 11, 2008 at 12:50 PM
I’m pretty sure every one’s mind is made up about you.
TooTall on September 11, 2008 at 12:53 PM
People like myself who have genetic disabilities are not merely lumps of tissue to be discarded before birth, or hidden away in institutions, or euthanized to reduce suffering or expenses. Many of us grow up to lead very productive lives. And those of us who cannot do so, still present a choice to everyone else: avoid us, abuse us, or accept us.
I am not an animal. I am a human being.
Joseph Merrick in the Elephant Man
Loxodonta on September 11, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Dedalus 12:31
What medical doctor could get away with telling you that something with arms, legs, a beating heart, brain waves, its own DNA, etc…. is just a blob of cells?
What medical doctor could perform surgery without the signature of a parent or legal guardian?
What medical doctor could take care of broken bones incurred from known criminal physical abuse of a minor and not report it to the authorities?
What medical doctor could keep patient’s remains in their refrigerator and boast of eating it?
What medical doctor is considered competent if they refuse to give their patient accurate prognoses and medical options?
What doctor would be allowed to falsify your vital signs in order to perform what he is licensed to do?
You really need to look at http://www.dr-tiller.com to see why so many medical doctors don’t view abortionists as physicians at all.
justincase on September 11, 2008 at 12:55 PM
jim m probably thinks that laws against murder and slavery are elitist to.
MarkTheGreat on September 11, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Do you always come battle this ill-equiped?
geckomon on September 11, 2008 at 12:56 PM
So the only experience you have is with those who have aborted. And from that you assume that everyone who doesn’t is miserable.
I was wrong. Your not an elitist. Your too stupid to be an elitist.
MarkTheGreat on September 11, 2008 at 12:57 PM
Last week, I was very close to tell my doctor not to order a AFP test on me. During my first pregnancy, I was given one: a week later, the hospital staff called me so I’d show for an emergency sonogram the same day. They only said to me, “We found something wrong with your blood work”, but they didn’t say what it was. It was after it was all said and done that I found out that she was healthy – and that they suspected Down or spina bifida. Until the sonogram happened, I was a heart-wreck.
This time, I consented to the test, because I figured that I had no other choice, given my age (35). It has been eight days since that test. No phone call… yet.
newton on September 11, 2008 at 12:58 PM
So by your definition of human life, it begins at age 5 or 6 years old?
Until “it” can survive on it’s own. So you have no problem killing a 6 month old baby because it can’t survive on its own.
What a strange way of thinking of life…you can kill any child under 1 year of age and maybe up to 5 or 6…and if it in a wheel chair and can’t fend for itself, well hell, you can kill “it” anytime you want at any age.
Yeah, your brilliant, f’in brilliant…
right2bright on September 11, 2008 at 1:03 PM
I love how “shortened life expectancy” is given as a reason to abort a possibly Downs-syndrome child.
WOW. The logic is overwhelming.
whole9yards on September 11, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Your logic: Unwanted children are less likely to be content and useful to themselves or society so they should be killed even if there’s a slight possibility of the contrary.
Following your logic: If society feels the same about you they are just as right to kill you.
shick on September 11, 2008 at 1:04 PM
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