You’re a gay, pro-choice, PUMA Quaker?

No offense, but I bet your family reunions are a hoot!

BacaDog on September 10, 2008 at 9:27 PM

Ha! No, I’m a Catholic.

Quaker is in my High School’s mascot (and yes, my alma mater). ;)

lansing quaker on September 10, 2008 at 9:38 PM

I’m curious…what do you think about the recent controvery surrounding Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden regarding their pro-choice positions and the teaching of the Catholic Church regarding abortion?

ManlyRash on September 10, 2008 at 9:43 PM

HATE Nancy (for her do-nothing tenure as Speaker more than anything you guys probably do), but I don’t feel she was wrong.

A lot of parishoners of Catholic churches/parishes are pro-choice under a policy metric (explained later). More importantly, the Church — like any church — is about community and service.

Pelosi, of course, opened her big mouth wide enough for the Catholic hierarchy to drive a truck through. A lot of Catholics are becoming “Cafeteria Catholics”: more and more white Catholics are leaving their self-identification as Catholic every year. The rates have stayed consistent large in part to the growing Latino population.

I grew up learning my “Padre Nuestro” as a result. Our church was that mixed by the time I was 14. ;)

Back to abortion, though.

To wit: My grandma — an 81 year old FDR-Dem — goes to church almost every day, was instrumental in building our church in the 50’s, is against abortion (pro-life), and yet believes that a woman’s decisions will be judged between that woman and God, and other people don’t need to be “pokin’ in her business here on the ground,” as she’d say.

So I think Nancy was hitting it right as far as Catholics on an anecdotal level. But it was a stupid thing to say politically. Those who will defend the church are of the same sort that will defend the church in full, no questions asked.

I defend the church often. Even as a gay guy. Because I respect the institution, its commitment to service, and its importance in our social lives. I don’t agree with it always (women as priests would help) but it’s an integral part of my upbringing and current life, and I don’t reject that.

So, blah. To summarize:

Pelosi wasn’t 100% wrong.
But it was a dumb thing to say, because it won’t reach the people that that message could appeal to on a logical level.

And her policies still suck, and she hasn’t done anything decent as Speaker.

That’s essentially my opinion. But, mind, you’re talking to a gay Catholic.

lansing quaker on September 10, 2008 at 9:56 PM

ex-Democrat.

You are way too lucky! I’m a gay fanboy of Sarah Palin, like, forever. If I met her, I would have her sign my chest and refuse to wash it for life. It’s that serious.

I know that makes me sound Obama-fanatical, but I must meet Sarah Palin. She’s my muse!

lansing quaker on September 10, 2008 at 10:00 PM

Perhaps I am remiss, but I do not believe you explained that “policy metric.”

Interesting. Is “comminity and service” all there is to the Church? Or is there more?

ManlyRash on September 10, 2008 at 10:05 PM

Policy with regard to “most folks have strong beliefs, but most don’t care to make any social issue the issue.” Like, my grandma was not too hot on gays until she found out her grandson was (me), and then rethought the matter.

That hearkens to community. I consider myself a part of that community and respect my roots. Others see that reflected in how I conduct myself, and alter the strength of their stances accordingly. Identity and all that.

Service? No. Not just to the church. To something more. But usually the local community, the parishoners, and others closer to you, rather than what teenage girls afar and abroad are doing.

Some perform service overseas. Some perform service in inner-cities across America. Others perform service just for their local community and neighbor. But as long as there is a call to service, then that’s what links us.

I hope yuou get what I’m feeling. I feel like I’m sounding all touchy-feely and elusive. Not my intention.

lansing quaker on September 10, 2008 at 10:29 PM

JudetheFossil on September 10, 2008 at 10:29 PM

Thanks for that. I’ve been a Democrat my entire life thus far, but this election cycle has made me realize that, well, there are bigger things than social identity. I really appreciate your comment (and hope, in kind, y’all can appreciate mine).

Gotta say I like HotAir’s diaries and commenters far more than a “progressive” place like DailyKos, at any rate. :)

So thanks!

lansing quaker on September 10, 2008 at 10:32 PM

Does the “policy metric” you describe have any foundation in the doctine of the Catholic Church, or is it simplay a matter of personal choice? If the formeer, can you direct me to the appropriate teaching in the catechism of the Church?

ManlyRash on September 10, 2008 at 10:39 PM

You appear (and I could be wrong) to be a strict follower of the Church’s doctrine. No, there is no teaching in the catechism about this.

But, then again, as someone who has had gay sex (and will continue to do so in a relationship), I shouldn’t be offered communion, nor should the church accept my tithes, yes?

I’m not knocking you for your beliefs. But to ignore the statistics that there are a lot of white Catholics who have left the strict regimens of the Church is being ignorant.

I respect the Church, and I attend the Church, and I appreciate the role of the Church. As do a lot of born and raised Catholics.

But not all follow the Church’s law as respectfully as you do. But we do believe in Christ, in the Church, and know our Nicene Creeds.

Anyhoot, essentially:

I’m not going to debate personal faith further. I am a Catholic. If you think me a lesser Catholic, that is fine. But I still respect, attend, and tithe to my Church, even if I disagree with certain elements. I understand that I go voluntarily and that I will not scream and shout for people to “ACCEPT ME BECAUSE IT’S RIGHT!” because I understand the choice I am making in attending, and ultimately own the choice I make with regard to both benefits and consequences.

Which is, at the end of the day, a wholly Republican trait, isn’t it?

Anyhoot. No. Nothing in chatechism. But I prefer to keep Catholics attending the Mass than drive them away out of purity. Your choice. I have mine, and own both the benefits and consequences of it.

lansing quaker on September 10, 2008 at 11:01 PM

L.Q., as a self-described PUMA, what was it that turned you off Obama and onto McCain/Palin (or is it just Palin?)? Just curious. We’ve had some lady PUMAs posting here lately, and they seem to be outraged at the sexism from the Obama camp. Was that it for you too, or was there something else?

AZCoyote on September 10, 2008 at 11:18 PM

LOL! “Opposition research?” ;)

Well, for starters, I was a Michigan Primary voter (”lansing” for “Lansing, MI”), and that whole debacle sent me into a tailspin of “wha? really? HUH?”

I mean, Democrats screamed and kicked that — allegedly — the Republicans stole ballots in ‘00 in FL (and to a lesser extent, ‘04 Ohio). But here was the Democratic leadership, carving up Michigan to the public eye.

My Obama friends lied and spun and parroted “Obama did was was right! All candidates were required to remove their names! And it’s your own fault — blame OTHER Democrats, but not Obama!”

From there it got into the sexism, the “racism!” canard, and so on. That just got me angry, aside from the actual “Obama is bad on policy” thought that went through my head. Before it was “Obama is worse, but is still a Democrat!” Now it’s just “Obama is worse.” Hopefully that makes sense!

Anyway, I expanded upon this here, to much critical reception:

http://www.michiganliberal.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=13349

I think that might be the most commented on diary at Michigan Liberal in quite some time.

As far as Palin? No, I don’t take it a gender pander, though I do prefer female politicians (hey, we all have our biases, and I’m not afraid to admit!). But it’s not like they could have thrown up “VAGINA ‘08!” like the Obama-Left said it was. I generally agree with Palin’s policies and respect her positions. It basically buttressed how I felt McCain was better than Obama.

Hope that helps the “Oppo”! ;)

lansing quaker on September 10, 2008 at 11:38 PM