Denver bishop to Biden: Abortion “foundational” issue
posted at 9:30 am on September 9, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
Archbishop Charles Chaput has issued a more direct response to a Catholic politician than seen in many years. Chaput takes Joe Biden to task for his strange and contradictory statements on Catholicism and abortion, and indirectly addresses Nancy Pelosi at the same time. He destroys the argument that Catholics can support abortion and calls on Catholics to understand the difference between social-justice programs and abortion:
In 2008, although NBC probably didn’t intend it, Meet the Press has become a national window on the flawed moral reasoning of some Catholic public servants.On August 24, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, describing herself as an ardent, practicing Catholic, misrepresented the overwhelming body of Catholic teaching against abortion to the show’s nationwide audience, while defending her “pro-choice” abortion views. On September 7, Sen. Joseph Biden compounded the problem to the same Meet the Press audience.
Sen. Biden is a man of distinguished public service. That doesn’t excuse poor logic or bad facts.Asked when life begins, Sen. Biden said that, “it’s a personal and private issue.” But in reality, modern biology knows exactly when human life begins: at the moment of conception. Religion has nothing to do with it. People might argue when human “personhood” begins – though that leads public policy in very dangerous directions – but no one can any longer claim that the beginning of life is a matter of religious opinion. …
Abortion is a foundational issue; it is not an issue like housing policy or the price of foreign oil. It always involves the intentional killing of an innocent life, and it is always, grievously wrong. If, as Sen. Biden said, “I’m prepared as a matter of faith [emphasis added] to accept that life begins at the moment of conception,” then he is not merely wrong about the science of new life; he also fails to defend the innocent life he already knows is there.
I’ve written about the difference between social-justice policies and abortion in Catholic doctrine at least twice now, and it’s good to see the Church making the same distinction. They need to make this explicit, because Biden and Pelosi aren’t the only members of the flock who basically bargain socialist policy stands of poverty and health care in order to “buy” their support of abortion. Abortion and explicit cooperation in abortion carry an automatic excommunication from the Church, a burden not found often in the catechism. That is why Chaput calls it “foundational”; respect for human life springs from this belief that humans are at their conception sacred.
Chaput gives faint praise to Biden’s opposition to public funding for abortion, which he has trotted out this election cycle, but that doesn’t appear consistent, either, according to the pro-life site Life News:
As recently as February, Biden voted against an amendment that would permanently prevent abortion funding at Indian health care service facilities. The amendment from Sen. David Vitter would codify a longstanding policy against funding of abortions with federal Indian Health Service (IHS) funds. …
In April 2005, Biden voted against the Mexico City Policy, which President Bush instituted to prohibit taxpayer funding of groups that promote or perform abortions overseas. He also voted for international abortion funding in July 2003.
In a May 2003 vote, Biden also voted for a pro-abortion amendment to repeal the law that prohibits performance of abortions of military base hospitals, all of which are taxpayer-funded. …
Biden voted for taxpayer-funded abortions at military base medical centers in June 2002 as well along with votes in May 1999 and June 2000.
Biden represents himself as a Catholic and a moderate. He’s neither, at least not in terms of his stands on abortion. Instead, he presents a convenient Catholic for the pro-abortion lobby, one that can help bully Catholics into silence on the issue, or worse, mislead them into thinking abortion fits within Catholic doctrine. Chaput’s conclusion hits hard on this point:
American Catholics have allowed themselves to be bullied into accepting the destruction of more than a million developing unborn children a year. Other people have imposed their “pro-choice” beliefs on American society without any remorse for decades.If we claim to be Catholic, then American Catholics, including public officials who describe themselves as Catholic, need to act accordingly. We need to put an end to Roe and the industry of permissive abortion it enables. Otherwise all of us – from senators and members of Congress, to Catholic laypeople in the pews – fail not only as believers and disciples, but also as citizens.
Catholicism is a voluntary association. No one is forced to be Catholic. If Pelosi can’t accept the foundational teachings of the Church, then she should find a church that supports abortion and stop making ridiculous rationalizations about Catholicism. Biden needs something more if he believes human life begins at conception and fails to act to protect it. It’s time for Catholics to demand that politicians who run on their faith begin to act on it as well.
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: « Previous 1 … 4 5 6 7 Next »
You and your two peers here have levied dreadful accusations and made ongoing misrepresentations about Catholics, among others.
It is somewhat ODD that none of you revealed any faith relationship yourselves, and instead just denigrated others from some unspecified, and quite general references to “the Bible” while making no other testimony ohter than your negations (which is indicative of FALSE WITNESS, I add).
Thus, I eventually (four, five pages later) asked you to reveal just what DENOMINATION of “version” of “religion” you’re associated with, where this negation is coming from.
It’s not coming from God, let me put it that way, to be blunt.
Are you ashamed of who you congregate with? Need to keep it hidden, private, can’t mention it, can’t be identified?
Then, well, you’ve got compromises that also then don’t meet the light of day.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:14 PM
ALL-HOLY – Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life (Catechism 411, 493).
Romans 3:23 says, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”
IMMACULATE CONCEPTION — Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (Catechism 490-492).
In Luke 1:46-47, Mary said: “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour”. Mary knew that she needed a savior.
MOTHER OF GOD ‑- Because she is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God. (Catechism 963, 971, 2677).
Hebrews 1:1-2 says,
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds”.
MOTHER OF THE CHURCH ‑- Mary is the Mother of the Church. (Catechism 963, 975).
Acts 1:13-14 gives a picture of a group of people praying together. Mary is mentioned as one of them, but nothing indicates any special prominence.
“And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Phillip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.”
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:14 PM
So there was every reason to believe that Stalin was and remained a member in good standing in the Orthodox Church? All he did was oversee the desecration and destruction of church buildings, and the murder of thousands of priests. What church has the right to excommunicate him, or even to stand in judgment of his politics?
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 3:14 PM
QUEEN OF HEAVEN ‑- God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and earth. (Catechism 966) She is to be praised with special devotion. (Catechism 971, 2675)
Psalm 148:13 says, “Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.” This makes it quite clear that only God’s name (not Mary’s) is to be exalted. (In Catholic Bibles the numbering of the chapters and verses of some of the Psalms is slightly different.)
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:15 PM
I guess no one can win even when they’re extending themselves and being as courteous and considarate as possible. Which I was being toward you, sorry you bite the hand that reaches out to you.
You posed a question, I tried to correspond to and about that.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Wait, now you’re quoting the EEEvil Catholic Church?
I wonder if anyone’s ever asked you if you know Jesus Christ as your Savior. If not, I’m asking.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:18 PM
What does that tell a wise man?
It tells a wise man that evil sits in places in our human realm because we live in a fallen world. That liars can be found posing as truthsayers and misleading people who can be misled, to their doom.
God gives the faithful tools to weather these storms. Stalin was an evil man, he did evil, he was not among the faithful, let me put it that way.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:21 PM
I came back and posted some posts but I couldn’t find that what I said about the anti-Mormon propogandists the Tanners.
The Tanners are bitter excomunicated Mormons who make their living selling their own doctrines as suposed Mormon. Some people are excomunicated for preaching false doctrine and claiming revelations for the church. These people will take your money and tell you what you want to hear.
Would it be fair if I were to try to learn what you believe by asking someone who swore they would bring you down?
There is a website, that corrects some of what they go around charging money to say. I think it is fairlds.org
But I know people will believe what they choose.
petunia on September 9, 2008 at 3:21 PM
Find references of the “mother of Jesus” in the scriptures, and go figure.
Jesus’ work was not to write his autobiography, but to live and speak and work with people to share what he knew with them. That his disciples record Jesus’ references to his mother as “Woman” follows “Mary the mother of Jesus”.
It takes a sick mind to deny Mary as the “mother of Jesus” because in his work Jesus called his mother “Woman”, as though there is something innately wrong with the female gender.
We are done.
maverick muse on September 9, 2008 at 3:22 PM
And thanks to relics, he has been in many other places. More places than remains could ever possibly be.
Both protestant and catholic scholars are undecided about this. Augustine himself said, “Little Rocky”. I hope you don’t consider him an idiot.
It’s interesting to hear this multiply-regurgitated bit. We don’t have scripture in ARAMAIC.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 3:23 PM
Okay, THAT’S FRIGGIN’ IT.
Ask ANYONE here. I have gone OUT OF MY WAY to be civil and polite with you. I have tried EXTREMELY hard to be kind and friendly while still getting my point across.
I TOLD YOU what church I attend: The Church of Christ. I can understand if you said “I’ve never heard of that” or “I don’t recognize it”. But no, you’ve acted instead like I never replied. I might get raked over the coals for this, but here goes – I believe denominations are also wrong. Goes under the whole “One Lord, One Faith, One Church” thing. That’s my belief, and that’s why I’m not part of a denomination or a church that uses a name not authorized by the Bible itself.
And frankly, I wrote a QUITE LONG EXPLANATION of my views on page 4 – which, as far as I can tell, YOU CAN’T BE BOTHERED TO READ!! And has gone thusly ignored in this entire debacle. If you’re going to debate, it kind of requires you to pay attention to the person you’re debating!
If I had a Bible on hand, I would GLADLY list Book-Chapter-Verse for EVERYTHING I had to say. Unfortunately that’s simply not an option, considering I’m sitting in a cube in an office building in Arizona at the moment. So I’m doing the best I can from memory. If the Bible isn’t good enough for you – which quite general references to “the Bible” while making no other testimony other than your negations seems to imply – then I’m confident there’s NOTHING I can do to debate with you, because when I debate religion the Bible is all I have, all I’ve been given, and all I need.
I am frankly SICK and TIRED of your belittling commentary when I am trying to carry on an intelligent, polite debate. Everything I have had to say against your or anyone else’s beliefs I have attempted as best I can from memory to back up with Biblical references and at the same time maintain a state of politeness.
If you do not recognize the congregation with which I associate – AGAIN the name is The Church of Christ, once again I say one of the few names authorized in the Bible for God’s church – then SAY SO and stop acting like I never answered the question. I quite obviously have, TWICE now.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 3:23 PM
I call them as I see them, and I see them pretty clearly here. I have no intention to ‘beat’ anyone. When maligned by evil, I call it what it is.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:24 PM
I’m not a RC, so please you omniscient geniuses, save your breath in calling me a catholic (though I can think of worse epithets). Mary was declared theotokos, “God-bearer,” at the Council of Ephesus in 431. This was to counter the Nestorian heresy that Jesus was not God at birth. Your ignorance and bigotry is so eager to spew scorn on your theological strawman enemies that you ignore the heresy combated by the proper understanding (if not veneration) of Mary.
Also, did you know that Calvin, Zwingli, Cranmer, Luther and other Reformers held to the perpetual virginity of Mary? Did you know that these and other Reformers endorsed the propriety of the terms theotokos and Mother of God?
Two quotes from Luther:
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin” (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).
More from Luther:
The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ…She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).
No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace…Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ…Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).
I guess he didn’t know what he was talking about either.
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 3:25 PM
Much of Daniel is in Aramaic.
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 3:27 PM
Is that really enough?
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ – Matthew 7:22-24
shick on September 9, 2008 at 3:27 PM
Yes, you did. MY ongoing questions and later comments were directed to someone else, not to you, so your eventual oversteamaing there is misdirected and perhaps nothing more than your midday venting at work.
But you and your two peers here cannot possibly expect to run all over with all sorts of evil malignments, the Catholic Church, our theology, Christianity for Heaven’s sake, and then expect others to just go “oh, hi, sorry.”
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:28 PM
John 19:25-27
Yes The Virgin Mary is the God Bearer (Theotokos) who birthed Jesus Christ(who is God Himself).
She is a symbol of the Christian….Christ inside of her.
She is ever virgin and blessed above all women!
SaintOlaf on September 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM
And trying to talk with you has also been denigrated with various dismissals, so, hey, people aren’t doormats and some of us will confront your negativity.
I disagree entirely with you that there’s nothing more to be learned, said, understood or read from God. You might try to pray, maybe God’ll teach you something “new.”
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:30 PM
who cares? they were wrong.
Luther was also a vicious anti-semite…do you agree with him when he said:
Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:32 PM
Alright then. It seems there’s been a series of repeated miscommunications in that regard. And yeah, it’s been that kind of morning.
I think it’s about time for me to take my own advice from two pages ago and call this thread quits. It’s quite obvious I am not going to convince you of anything and you are not going to convince me, and any last remaining vestige of civility is quickly dwindling as tensions get stressed tighter and tighter the longer the debate continues. There’s a point where no matter how well the discussion is being handled, someone will reach the bursting point, and I’d rather it not be me.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 3:32 PM
Well from a few posting you have determined that he is the SON of SATAN. I knew there was something different about Grue in the Attic.
He is a new poster here and I added up the Hebrew numerical numbers of his name and they added up to 666.
Yes, those non-denominational churches turn out nothing holy, bunch of heathens. Why there is this Son of Satan out on the West Coast called Chuck Smith, a non-denominational sinner he is, and he has trained over 1,000 ministers to have non-denominational churches throughout the U.S.
Why those evil satan worshippers like:
Greg Laurie, Jon Courson, Mike MacIntosh, Raul Ries, Xavier Ries, Skip Heitzig and Malcolm Wild, were all disciples of this ungodly church.
Yes, nothing like the Catholic churches who have turned out people like…Bishop Mahoney,John Geoghan, Bishop Bernard Law,Bishop Allen Vigneron, Bishop Frederick Kelley,Richard Coughlin, the list is endless of child molesting Bishops and priests.
right2bright on September 9, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Argh, Luther, that’s a whole ‘nother six/seven pages…
I THINK that man is infallible. That we all, including Luther, have reasoned wrongly and rightly at various times and that God is unwaveringly accurate.
How’s that?
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Anything “new” implies it is not already in the Bible… frankly, I don’t want it.
Good afternoon.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 3:33 PM
I got that wrong.
I think that Man is fallible. Not infallible.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Matthew 13:54-56 says,
“And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hatch this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?”
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:34 PM
LOL What does that have to do with it? I don’t have Scripture in Greek either, but you want me to use the Greek translation for Peter. Christ spoke Aramaic. Scripture would be the translation from that. The Greek translation was Petros, but it was still a translation of the original word Christ used, which would have been Kepha, ROCK.
I have to say, this has been enlightening and not in a very pleasant way. The level of disrespect being shown to the Mother of God has put me over the edge, but I am finished. I have to go pick up my children, from an evil parochial school where they are being indoctrinated in all things Catholic. *horror*
Peace
pannw on September 9, 2008 at 3:34 PM
ouch!
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Like I wrote before, try praying and maybe God will tell you something “new.” If you even believe in Him; at this point, I can’t see that you do, if you’re not praying, you’re not listening, you haven’t learned anything.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:34 PM
if your kids are boys, I would be worried about them.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:35 PM
You’re about as prime an example of a possessed spirit as ever I’ve read one before.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:36 PM
And I see you STILL haven’t read the post I’ve referenced three times now back on page 4 where I answered your accusations of “not praying”.
I’m not going to type it all again. Here’s the link: http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/09/denver-bishop-to-biden-abortion-foundational-issue/comment-page-4/#comment-1401309
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 3:37 PM
And what do YOU know about “boys.” I venture to guess, therein lies your insanity and possessive nuttiness.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:37 PM
James,Joseph,Simon and Judas are all the sons of Mary.. wife of Cleopas/Alpheus. Jesus’s relatives in Cana.
Even all of the leaders of the protestant reformation understood that.
SaintOlaf on September 9, 2008 at 3:38 PM
tell me S, were you abused as an alter boy? you are filled with such rage and hatred.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:38 PM
*snicker* sure, right.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:38 PM
I can stand to be corrected. I’ll look into it.
It would be interesting if the catholics here would ever check into anything other than what they have been told by Rome.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 3:38 PM
What I have learned:
That Mormons and Catholics do have some very similar doctrines. The big differences are there however, and mostly authority would be the biggest problem. We will never accept each other’s baptism for example. But we believe in the Keys of authority. And continuing revelation. I am surprized that you claim it. The same keys you believe the Pope holds we believe Thomas S. Monson holds at this time.
And we think that Mary is great women and all our lives are blessed by her obedience. But we wouldn’t go nearly as far as you she as she was a regular woman sins and all.
I’m also surprized that some Protestants are so against revelation that they almost deny that God can and does answer prayers! And there are no miracles? I see miracles every day! I receive direction and guidence every day!
I’m not surprized that everyone tries to rely on the Scriptures to prove things that are contradictory and internally inconsistent. Those same scriptures are so plain to me. But it is useless to tell you what I believe they say. You would not believe me. I can see that when you argue with each other. And I would make points some that agree but others almost opposite.
I do think though that all these view points agree that abortion is an abomination in the sight of God. That we must know in our gut. Or the Spirit bears witness to those of us who believe the Spirit capable of such things.
petunia on September 9, 2008 at 3:40 PM
Not in all things. Just the most important ones.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 3:40 PM
I got that a while back, you’ve fretted about repeating it for no reason other than your own anxiousness, perhaps.
As long as you maintain that there is nothing “new” to be learned or heard or acquired from God, then you have a foggy one-way demand type of prayer placed UPON God and are not willing or available to commune with Him (shutting out anything “new”).
You’re oddly threatened by anything that may seep in from Heaven, in other words. The Bible is written, believable, sacrosanct, but you omit the consideration that anything ELSE may be Holy and sacroscanct as God communicates it and that’s my point.
Praying without listening or communing with God is not prayers, it’s printing a shopping list.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:40 PM
It’s true Martin Luther, John Calvin and all of the other protestant reformation leaders all claimed that Mary was ever virgin.
It’s a shame and curious as to why protestants do not believe that now, even though the protestant reformation leaders knew that and wrote it clearly.
SaintOlaf on September 9, 2008 at 3:41 PM
satan just blathers on and on and on and lies and lies and acuses and lies again and hopes someone falls his way so he can bat them around and harass and lie and wound some more.
You’re a crazy person, you are no Christian and I hope to God He saves you from your ugly little pit.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:42 PM
who cares? Luther was a vicious anti-semite…do you agree with him on that?
well maybe because the bible is clear about Jesus having brothers and sisters…sigh…
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Well. Another missive from hell.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:44 PM
And you’re a viscious anti-Christian. So what else is new?
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Then why do you keep accusing me of saying I don’t pray? Your responses implied you hadn’t read it, if you had you wouldn’t be making such accusations.
Considering the Bible itself says (paraphrased) “There’s not going to be any more”, and the fact that “new” stuff have a tendency to contradict the Bible (in other points than just the above), I find it hard to believe that anything ELSE can be “Holy and sancrosanct”.
This is an unsolvable dilemma. I believe that modern-day revelations are either false, delusional, or intentionally misleading; you believe the opposite. I’m sure if we sat down and debated further more differences would arise. You will not convince me and it’s looking like I’m equally unlikely to convince you, so why don’t we stop wasting our breath?
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Um, my Father did not step foot in a METHODIST church for over 20 years, because THEY protected a Pedophile…
It aint just Catholics bub…
Romeo13 on September 9, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Do you agree that all protestants should throw out the idea of the protestant reformation and go back to the Orthodox Church then?
SaintOlaf on September 9, 2008 at 3:46 PM
S: here’s some places to get some help..
link
link
there is healing for you sick and evil soul. an exorcism would be a good place to start…then a good psychiatrist.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:47 PM
Here are a few quotes from Luther.
Next time you should do a little research before shooting off your mouth.
This is not the first time you cast your accusations without any facts.
right2bright on September 9, 2008 at 3:47 PM
but how many people left the catholic church because of the scandals?? hmmm??
there didn’t seem to be an outcry in the catholic laity.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:48 PM
It is ‘Christians’ like you who give the leftist anti-Christian elitists so much amunition to use against the rest of us. You have lowered yourself to the level of dirt and I shake you from my sandals.
pannw on September 9, 2008 at 3:48 PM
I’m sure you’re very proud of your saintly and holy self!! you go there ms. self-righteous!!
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:48 PM
apparently that is what you are doing.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:49 PM
The Bible is clearly shows that James Simon and Judas and Joses are sons of Cleopas..
SaintOlaf on September 9, 2008 at 3:49 PM
btw: did you ‘shake your sandals’ at the pedophile priests???? didn’t think so.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:49 PM
That’s a classic ad hominem, which posits that therefore nothing he ever said is trustworthy. I didn’t even say I agreed with him.
As for Jesus’ brothers, there’s no word for cousin in Koine Greek, so it is as proper to translate adelphoi either as brothers or cousins. The early Church and even Protestants until relatively recently had no problem with this.
Me and My Bible is not the best method of hermeneutics.
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 3:50 PM
You just try to be mean and get a rise out of people. I don’t get insulting some one over religon of all things. That is just so opposite from the meaning and purpose of religon.
petunia on September 9, 2008 at 3:50 PM
In the beginning . . .
. . . of this thread, Ed Morrissey posted about the Denver Bishop’s admonishment to Catholic politicians about abortion.
In reading it since then, I quickly saw increasing numbers of ignorant, bigoted & offensive statements aimed at Catholics, as well as defensiveness that is increasingly hostile & offensive.
This kind of “discussion” seems less aimed at building bridges of understanding than scoring personal points. However, I do see how this kind of “discussion” could help Michelle’s children . . .
. . . move into the White House.
Loxodonta on September 9, 2008 at 3:50 PM
Where?
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 3:50 PM
Because your concept of prayer is radically “alternative” to any I’ve ever encountered. If you refuse or decline the reality or possibility that there is nothing more to learn, to be read, to be said, etc., which you HAVE written here, then you decline any ongong influence with you by God’s efforts and extensions to reach you…usually by prayer.
I believe by faith that God’s abilities are so far beyond what our human abilities are, that I don’t discount other (non prayer, so to speak) communications from God, but that prayer as most Christians I know and churches and respective theology I khow, define prayer as communication WITH God, both an appeal and a reply, a willingness by faith in God’s Divinity (supremacy to us) to respond with His will, to let His will be known.
If we are not available/willing to hear or know that will, our prayers are self limiting: we deny the moment to allow God to respond to us.
Thus, declaring that, as you have, that there’s nothing else to know, it’s all been said already, is strange to a point of self-damaging.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:51 PM
keep dreaming.
matthew 12:
46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him.
John 2:
12After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.
JOhn 7:
3Jesus’ brothers said to him, “You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:52 PM
dude you’re proving my point why are you accusing me?
SaintOlaf on September 9, 2008 at 3:52 PM
“Bitter” cuts against the uninformed accuser, reminiscent of bigotry. We heard Obama reference those who still hold to their religion as “bitter”. Without thoroughly reading the Tanner’s scholarly documented historical publications, and without any personal contact with the Tanners, how would one conclude that they are “bitter”.
It is tiring; this broken record reciting what you’ve been told to say, having failed yourself to yet do your independent study of original Mormonism, not recognizing your own Church for what it began as, nor having any idea of its many mutating revisions to become the modern presentation.
The Catholic and Protestant histories are open books. HISTORY is replete with viable accounts of everything is you open your eyes and study. Virtues and faults, all are acknowledged and explicated, none hidden. The Mormon history, however, is closed from its own members’ prying eyes, as if faith in God is so fragile.
The Tanners certainly did not publish their “own” doctrines beyond saying that the doctrines that they explicate were the Mormon Church’s and the Tanners were Mormons.
“Bitter” is sold to insulate an elitist community pointing fingers at the environment outside of their ‘ignorance is bliss’ ‘we know better than everyone else’ bubble.
Read for yourself. Believe as you like.
It makes no difference to me.
maverick muse on September 9, 2008 at 3:52 PM
You’re the one who continues to refer to “pedophiles.”
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:53 PM
oh please, give me a break. why don’t you ask the muslims what the ‘meaning of religion’ is, and see if they agree.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:53 PM
and did you protest the pedophile priests, and the inaction of the catholic church? obviously not.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:54 PM
It’ll come out sooner or later, it might as well come out now.
I’m actually quite glad to be able to have had this opportunity to identify on this site, these comments, just who is who and what they do or don’t believe in. It’s informative.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:54 PM
There satan goes again, dwelling on “pedophiles” again, dwelling in sin.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:55 PM
LOL…. sorry, cant resist…
Maybe God told him theres nothing more?
Romeo13 on September 9, 2008 at 3:55 PM
And there I believe is where we differ most. If I pray for understanding, it is my belief that God will open my eyes and mind to parts of his will – already given in the Bible – that I have missed, misunderstood, or otherwise overlooked. I do not believe that he will grant me (or anyone else) knowledge that he has not already made available.
I do not deny that God can help us acquire new knowledge… I simply don’t believe that the knowledge he will help us acquire is not already available. New revelations and all that.
Our views are, as I noted before, irreconcilable.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 3:55 PM
“If we or an angel from heaven…” You can finish it :)
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 3:56 PM
so you’re upset by mentioning the pedophile priest scandal…but not the pedophile priests and what they did, and the coverup by the church…
my how ‘christian’ of you…your ‘jesus’ may be ok with that, but the Jesus of the Bible is not.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Funny, yeah, that or maybe Peggy Lee.
S on September 9, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Dam, sure are a lot of Satan’s running around… but… on a lighter note…
I do have a theory that Satan was the FIRST AMERICAN!
Yep, thrown out of Heaven for wanting Free Speech, Freedom of Religion, Seperation of Church and State… and was definatly Anti Authoritarian!
/runs away after throwing gas on the fire…
Romeo13 on September 9, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Now that right there’s funny I don’t care who you are.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 3:59 PM
Well, you’re wrong. And somewhat right. Mutually. Because God does refer us and inspire us to passages in the Bible for inspiration, reference, guidance, BUT God also inspires the faithful, (some who listen) to new information.
This does not violate or counter God’s Bible, not in any way. You’re seemingly afraid of anything outside some dogma as if you’re being handcuffed to a table and lecturn in your approach to the Bible and God.
The Bible, by the way, is GOD’S LIVING WORD. He does not overthrow or cast it aside, he amplifies Man’s understanding.
I think you don’t know the Holy Spirit and you seem to be someone who would distrust the Holy Spirit. Thus, you’re frightened by a God who is beyond yourself, is my opinion, so you’re shutting Him out.
Tell me, a disaster is soon to happen and God “speaks” or inspires someone (by “revelation” not by a booming voice from the sky) that this thing of some sort is going to occur. That person is alerted and maintains some sort of heightened readiness to counter some imminent thing that he is sure, by faith, that God’s inspired him to be aware of, to thus, aid and assist suffering and do whatever is possible to alleviate danger.
Thus, that person has just “learned something new” from a generous God who cares enough about us humans to insire some of us to be on guard against something damaging and to take actions to be as brave as possible to help God do what He’d want at that time.
That’s learning something “new.” And you won’t find “new” events listed in the Bible such as that with any specificity that any one individual, without God’s miraculous inspiration, will aid and alleviate that moment in time.
You’ll find foretellings of certain events of greater events to come in the Bible, but God’s taking the great care to communicate to a faithful person that something on a specific day or week would occur you won’t find.
That’s the “revelation knowledge” that some speak of, and the testimony of saints that the Catholic Church speaks of, when those events occur. God truly does communicate to man, when we listen.
S on September 9, 2008 at 4:05 PM
Acts 1:13
“And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.”
Matthew 27:56
“Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children”.
SaintOlaf on September 9, 2008 at 4:06 PM
/ runs to take a shower because it’s late.
S on September 9, 2008 at 4:08 PM
You know S, you play the nice catholic but you can’t seem to talk to any protestant that disagrees with you without coming to these kind of conclusions. Nice.
What’s that in your hand? Oh, a flush of Anti-catholic cards. Best way to end any argument.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 4:08 PM
petunia on September 9, 2008 at 2:48 PM
You seem a genuinely sweet and tender person.
If I write with vigor, it is because HotAir already went through the entire MORMONISM dichotomy when Romney first declared his POTUS candidacy. Really, please don’t get into Mormonism here without doing your own research first, and I’ll not trouble you further. But as you are new here, kindly accept apologies if I have alarmed your sensibilities.
maverick muse on September 9, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Well, hell is overflowing if you believe what Jesus says about how sternly God judges us at the “Pearly Gates.”
All the while, there’s this map God’s given us that tells us His terms of entry past the Pearly Gates.
/ runs to take a shower becauase it’s late.
S on September 9, 2008 at 4:10 PM
What?!
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 4:10 PM
YOU know nothing of which you allege but your own evil.
maverick muse on September 9, 2008 at 4:11 PM
BTW Alphaeus is the greek name for Cleophas.
SaintOlaf on September 9, 2008 at 4:11 PM
/ Not yet in the shower…
I’ve not encountered too many “nice Protestants” here. Meanwhile, in “real life,” I know many “nice Protestants” and we have a lot of rewarding and communally friendly “talks.” I even, oh my gosh, know Jews who I speak even more communally friendly with, what’s this world of negative stereotypes coming to?!
There are a few very ribald, irratic non-declaring whosits here who I doubt very much if not entirely are Christian. Which means they are not Protestants.
/ now running to take a shower because it’s even later.
S on September 9, 2008 at 4:14 PM
Also, maverick muse, I wanted to wish you a very nice day, too. I forgot to disclose previous comments that I know and have “friendly talks” with a some Mormons and even a few Scientologists. None of htem profane my faith nor curse at me nor lie about me, publicly or privately, that I know of. Those and other Catholics don’t.
I’m just saying that this sampling, these comments, do not represent, well, a sampling of who and what “Protestants” are, and by their own testimony, I see little that is Christian, either.
S on September 9, 2008 at 4:17 PM
so is there anything a priest could do that you would denounce and leave the catholic church for?
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 4:17 PM
Thanks for bringing that to my attention, but it looks kinda dubious. See this.
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 4:17 PM
See this.
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 4:18 PM
Typo, “erratic.”
S on September 9, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Geeee… could that be because normal folk won’t comment in threads like this… where they may be called EVIl or SATAN?
Kinda like the abortion debate? Which is strictly inhabited by the zealots from the extremes on both sides?
Or the Global Warming debate… in which the zealots lambaste anyone who has a dissenting opinion?
But then, there are some of us who just can’t keep out of a “good fight”…
Romeo13 on September 9, 2008 at 4:24 PM
Spoken like a true bigot.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 4:33 PM
So is there anything a priest could do that you would denounce and leave the catholic church for?
A priest isn’t the Church. Perhaps I’m lucky, but I’m a lifelong Catholic and I’ve known dozens of priests. Only one was involved in the pedophilia scandals and he is gone now – in jail, actually. Which is where he should be. Getting rid of these guys is part of what Catholics need to do. Should it have happened many years ago? Yes. But we can’t do anything about the past. We can try to make the institution of the Church live up to the standards that it should going forward. That’s been a struggle for 2000 years now — the Church’s history is replete with reprobate Popes and scoundrels. Any institution that includes sinners will have some of those. And that means every institution. I am a lay Faith Formation teacher for my parish, so part of what I am trying to do is ensure that the next generation isn’t betrayed in the way that some members of my generation were. And I don’t think that’s a fool’s errand.
Godspeed.
Mr. D on September 9, 2008 at 4:35 PM
I’ve rarely encountered more hateful mean and downright evil people of any religion (including muslim) than S.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 4:35 PM
The answer here is simple:
If you think someone’s beliefs are wrong- then pray for them.
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 4:36 PM
good post, but it seems that there was little outcry among the laity, other than those effected by the abuse. and the cover-up of the priests by the bishops was inexcusable…I would have left the church in a NY minute…
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 4:37 PM
LOL… but at least S aint shootin at me… like I’ve had Moslems do….
Romeo13 on September 9, 2008 at 4:38 PM
You may not believe it, right4life, but the laity didn’t necessarily know. As I said, I am lifelong Catholic, went to Catholic grade school and high school and never knew anyone who was abused. And no one I grew up with has come forward. I may be naive, but there’s good reason to believe it didn’t happen in my parish or my high school.
And I agree the coverup was inexcusable. But it wasn’t a universal thing.
Mr. D on September 9, 2008 at 4:42 PM
Give him a chance, I believe he’d oblige…the guy is literally unhinged, lashing out in all directions like that. I’ve rarely seen a thread degenerate like that.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 4:51 PM
Ah, its OK… as a Nondenominational Pagan Zen Agnostic with Gnostic leanings and Grand Poohbah of IDunOhism… I’m pretty much going to H no matter what religion you talk too…
But I’m still gonna be buried with a sword in Hand… hopein for those Hot Blonde Valkerys to take me to Valhala!
Romeo13 on September 9, 2008 at 4:59 PM
Comment pages: « Previous 1 … 4 5 6 7 Next »