Denver bishop to Biden: Abortion “foundational” issue
posted at 9:30 am on September 9, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Archbishop Charles Chaput has issued a more direct response to a Catholic politician than seen in many years. Chaput takes Joe Biden to task for his strange and contradictory statements on Catholicism and abortion, and indirectly addresses Nancy Pelosi at the same time. He destroys the argument that Catholics can support abortion and calls on Catholics to understand the difference between social-justice programs and abortion:
In 2008, although NBC probably didn’t intend it, Meet the Press has become a national window on the flawed moral reasoning of some Catholic public servants.On August 24, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, describing herself as an ardent, practicing Catholic, misrepresented the overwhelming body of Catholic teaching against abortion to the show’s nationwide audience, while defending her “pro-choice” abortion views. On September 7, Sen. Joseph Biden compounded the problem to the same Meet the Press audience.
Sen. Biden is a man of distinguished public service. That doesn’t excuse poor logic or bad facts.Asked when life begins, Sen. Biden said that, “it’s a personal and private issue.” But in reality, modern biology knows exactly when human life begins: at the moment of conception. Religion has nothing to do with it. People might argue when human “personhood” begins – though that leads public policy in very dangerous directions – but no one can any longer claim that the beginning of life is a matter of religious opinion. …
Abortion is a foundational issue; it is not an issue like housing policy or the price of foreign oil. It always involves the intentional killing of an innocent life, and it is always, grievously wrong. If, as Sen. Biden said, “I’m prepared as a matter of faith [emphasis added] to accept that life begins at the moment of conception,” then he is not merely wrong about the science of new life; he also fails to defend the innocent life he already knows is there.
I’ve written about the difference between social-justice policies and abortion in Catholic doctrine at least twice now, and it’s good to see the Church making the same distinction. They need to make this explicit, because Biden and Pelosi aren’t the only members of the flock who basically bargain socialist policy stands of poverty and health care in order to “buy” their support of abortion. Abortion and explicit cooperation in abortion carry an automatic excommunication from the Church, a burden not found often in the catechism. That is why Chaput calls it “foundational”; respect for human life springs from this belief that humans are at their conception sacred.
Chaput gives faint praise to Biden’s opposition to public funding for abortion, which he has trotted out this election cycle, but that doesn’t appear consistent, either, according to the pro-life site Life News:
As recently as February, Biden voted against an amendment that would permanently prevent abortion funding at Indian health care service facilities. The amendment from Sen. David Vitter would codify a longstanding policy against funding of abortions with federal Indian Health Service (IHS) funds. …
In April 2005, Biden voted against the Mexico City Policy, which President Bush instituted to prohibit taxpayer funding of groups that promote or perform abortions overseas. He also voted for international abortion funding in July 2003.
In a May 2003 vote, Biden also voted for a pro-abortion amendment to repeal the law that prohibits performance of abortions of military base hospitals, all of which are taxpayer-funded. …
Biden voted for taxpayer-funded abortions at military base medical centers in June 2002 as well along with votes in May 1999 and June 2000.
Biden represents himself as a Catholic and a moderate. He’s neither, at least not in terms of his stands on abortion. Instead, he presents a convenient Catholic for the pro-abortion lobby, one that can help bully Catholics into silence on the issue, or worse, mislead them into thinking abortion fits within Catholic doctrine. Chaput’s conclusion hits hard on this point:
American Catholics have allowed themselves to be bullied into accepting the destruction of more than a million developing unborn children a year. Other people have imposed their “pro-choice” beliefs on American society without any remorse for decades.If we claim to be Catholic, then American Catholics, including public officials who describe themselves as Catholic, need to act accordingly. We need to put an end to Roe and the industry of permissive abortion it enables. Otherwise all of us – from senators and members of Congress, to Catholic laypeople in the pews – fail not only as believers and disciples, but also as citizens.
Catholicism is a voluntary association. No one is forced to be Catholic. If Pelosi can’t accept the foundational teachings of the Church, then she should find a church that supports abortion and stop making ridiculous rationalizations about Catholicism. Biden needs something more if he believes human life begins at conception and fails to act to protect it. It’s time for Catholics to demand that politicians who run on their faith begin to act on it as well.
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Catholics wouldn’t disagree. The Vatican has had scholars hard at work for hundreds of years studying the Bible, since the Church sees it as the word of God.
dedalus on September 9, 2008 at 1:20 PM
The same one the Jews did. I’m not going to follow. I’ve posted enough here.
I recommend this link
shick on September 9, 2008 at 1:21 PM
Don’t know off-hand, and since I’m at work I can’t go look and find out.
Here’s where it comes down to faith: I’m convinced that God did what he had to do to preserve his doctrine as he wanted it so those of us in later generations would have access to it.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:21 PM
Shick, I just have to say your and some others’ self-righteousness is actually becoming offensive. It is very strange to hear that the purveyors of the faith since the time of Christ on earth are somehow a false religion if Protestantism is not. You got that Scripture from Roman Catholic monks keeping it alive.
If Scripture is all that you need, how do you reconcile Christ’s own words? And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
In addition, the early Church did not have that Scripture you reference, yet they thrived in Faith. Maybe they were not Christian enough for you because they did not have quotes from Scripture to back up their actions or beliefs.
I apologise for sounding angry, but I must defend my Faith.
pannw on September 9, 2008 at 1:22 PM
I found it very difficult to understand what you mean.
I do not apologize for having more of God’s word than you. We think of you much the same way that you think of the Jews. They refused to accept the additional revelation that God had for them as you do not accept modern revelation. You are not wrong so much as you just don’t know as much.
God has revealed to us in this day his plan and the purpose for our Earth life:
Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
So certainly all the glory belongs to God in Mormon doctrine. But the welfare of His children is of up most importance to Him.
But really I’m finished now. I have to get more done than this. Your conversations have been informative and in many ways uplifting. Thank you.
petunia on September 9, 2008 at 1:22 PM
Since I do think that evil — the source of evil, call it satan, call it what you will, I think the point is communicated well by any or all of those terms — is the source of what is bad (”ruined,” “spoiled,” “ill,” “sick” whatever) in this fallen world, I do think you’re entirely beset by nuttiness.
Whatever that specific nuttiness may be, I have no idea and I’m not too interested at this point in seeing it identified. I long ago in these comments wrote to you what I estimate about you and that’s not changed.
I’m not challenged by your taunts and stupid irrationalities. I think, rather, it continues to prove you badly affected by whatever it is that’s affecting you (again, call your profanity and irrationality a sickness — I do — or call it some term otherwise, it’s still profanit and sickness in action — you beset humanity from a sick or ill point of view and it wreaks a sick result).
I don’t even understand your rants now about Saul and Samuel. And now my user I.D. somehow has “special messaging” being beamed to you, so you seem to indicate.
You’ve just got disorganized thinking. Why that is, I have no idea. But your thinking is disorganized and as I wrote earlier, you’re suffering some sort of fear problem rooted in paranoia.
Can’t help you. God can. Doctors can somewhat. But you really need healing.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:23 PM
didn’t know you were the moderator. I usually return whats given. don’t like it? who cares?
*drinks*
duhhhhhh
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:24 PM
It doesn’t take a Pope to know that Jesus would never perform an abortion.
The problem with sophistry is that it ruins innocence.
The problem with the Roman Catholic Church having gone so long as stalwart Democrats in America is finally being addressed on this single, tantamount issue: ABORTION IS WRONG. Thank goodness. That the ruts were set and deepened by Catholics and their priests being so staunchly Democrat is ironic, having endorsed the Marxist alignments of the States’ Great Society as if to donate the Church’s role to the State, weary of charity and the cost of being the Universal Church. Morons need not say that I’m anti-Catholic, because I love the Catholic traditional Liturgy of formal worship, and I honor the Vatican’s vast knowledge, and appreciate my own relations with members. But either the memberships’ POLITICS are to be redressed or their Church forfeits any moral authority in life.
I do like historical examples from which to draw insight for wisdom. All of the Old Testament prophets, John the Baptist and Jesus with his disciples taught that Repentance works. America made a Constitutional if not moral mistake with Roe v. Wade. We wish to overturn it and leave it for the people of each state to do with as states’ rights determine.
Back to basics:
Church performs Charity.
Government defends its citizens and Constitution.
That the majority of people who have had abortions felt the “need” to do so in order to “get ahead” in life is what I bemoan. It is NOT that someone who had an abortion should be punished now; what’s done is done. But the point IS that the abortion rights will no longer be required by the federal government, nor will abortion be funded from federal tax dollars. Our national legislation on tax moneys funding clinics that perform abortions needs to tightening to match our international American-tax-funded legislation. Comfort levels aside, by enabling abortion via tax funds or federal legislation, we are guilty by association. Our choice, however, it to not be associated with a federal endorsement of abortion.
We will not tolerate the Marxist Left dictating such vile contempt for life, always nuanced with selfish comfort, social sophistication and professional advancement to make the sale. And then to FURTHER promote the “harvest” or mutilation of the human embryo for stem cells compounds the condemnation because viable stem cells can be harvested from willing adult participants. The abortion industry is all for the money to be made from killing. But unlike the industrial war machine, the abortion industry does NOT provide any national security. If anything, abortion leaves America vulnerable to incarnated angels of death. The robes with which abortion’s proponents wrap themselves are all the more hypocritically vile and to be repudiated in public and private.
Strong medicine. I know. But the ruts are deep.
maverick muse on September 9, 2008 at 1:24 PM
Not saying I’m the mod… just offering some friendly advice :) I’m fond of meaningful debate, not so much when it degrades into Godwinesque accusations.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:26 PM
perhaps you should try reading the bible. the story of samuel, saul, and the witch of endor is in 1 samuel 28.
and you cannot answer why you call mary *queen of heaven* the same as a pagan goddess in the old testament.
the truth really seems to have unhinged you. you should seek professional help…or an exorcist.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:27 PM
You appear to place a great deal of reverence on Mary. Makes you sick to see her “profaned.” It’s like you place her above the status of “human being.”
Your protestations are giving you away.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 1:30 PM
I’ve explained this. Before, in detail. With examples that they might comprehend in the nomenclature of whatever random denomination is mysteriously being presented here as oppositional to the Catholic Church (I have no idea what that is, no one’s naming it).
My explanations have been routinely rejected and also misrepresented because of a few haters here who are in a fit about me being a Catholic and the Catholic Church in general as they fear it just has to be.
The Bible is our tool and teacher and basis of faith as Catholics, and the Church devotes a huge amount of time and academics of (and prayer about) the Bible.
We don’t “change” the Bible, but we do, just as Protestants do, recognize that God does continue to instruct persons of faith through prayer, deeds, words, revelations and testimonies. That’s not a radical notion to either Christianity nor to any denomination among Christians.
There are, to the contrary, certain FEARFUL perspectives that percolate these outright fear-based lies about the Catholic Church (”right4life” has repeated most of them here on these comments).
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:31 PM
good point.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:31 PM
you really do seem obsessed with me. didn’t you say you weren’t going to post to me, and were leaving, and then you came back and posted to me?
I’ve spoken the truth. your panic is proof of that.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:32 PM
That was a long, self important, ranting, ad hominem attack. Somebody needs to head to the confessional.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 1:32 PM
Sorry you perceive my rebuking as self-righteousness. But that is common. Actually I have only posted the opposite on this thread. I have no self-righteousness only imputed righteousness of Christ. It doesn’t come from me. I’m a wretched sinner among many whom only by God’s grace I have been saved.
I didn’t think you were angry. Can you answer my question I repeated? Which infallible organization should you as a fallible person follow?
The obvious answer is that being fallible you can’t know which one to follow. That is of course if you believe that when God has spoken He isn’t clear enough.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 1:33 PM
Meanhwhile, Pope Benedict is a Biblical scholar of well known, highly regarded principles of academics and faith.
His use of the Bible is instrumental to the Church as is every or most Catholics reference and use of the Bible, also.
I guess someone might argue Bible editions, however.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:33 PM
This Catholic STILL likes you Grue.
*smiles*
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:34 PM
Sorry my own expression in my own words isn’t what you would express in yours. Actually, no, I’m not sorry.
It’s my expression. I am sorry if you are intolerant and deeem it “ranting,” however. Your loss. I’ve written thoughtfully and conscientiously here as best I could.
If you are intolerant, please don’t bother yourself with reading my comments.
I’ll try and avoid yours, too, in the future.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:35 PM
Oops, sorry, I missed this in all the rants.
Yep, you’ve exposed me. I am bigoted against all sorts of bigotry. I better get to a confessional.
pannw on September 9, 2008 at 1:35 PM
Hardly. As in, I guarantee, I have no obsession for or about you.
why are you copying and pasting so many of my sentences here, and so often? AS I’ve written now many times, you’ve got some mental and spiritual problems and nothing I can write is going to change that.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:37 PM
and that Mother Theresa was a real pagan sinner too…huh….
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:37 PM
S: why would a catholic church name itself after a pagan deity from the old testament?
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:37 PM
uh yeah when you mention my name in a post to someone else….
look up ‘projection’ and take the log out of your own eye, before you take the spec out of mine.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:38 PM
Listen, I am not worshiping the same God as you guys. The fact is you have created your own “god” to fit your beliefs. Is your sabbath Saturday or Sunday?…do you share everything you have with your fellow man? Why didn’t you “turn the other cheek” with my post…I guarantee if you told me what your “catechism” was I could tear it apart also.
So let’s hear what denomination you are…if any.
It is so easy to sit and condemn another mans religion, when you don’t know your own. Tell me, do you ever pray out loud? Do you think that you are arrogant?
Try this little passage on for size:
*
To answer “s” question, of “so you could?” the answer is yes, because I can…and too expose people like you and shick, to show you what you look like to the rest of us. Sitting by a yellow painted bus with homemade signs stating the the Pope is satan…
right2bright on September 9, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Do you not believe that Mother Theresa was a sinner?
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Not all of us believe that, just so ya know. :) “Love never fails; but where there are prophecies, they shall cease” and such. ;)
Thanks :D I’m making a real effort to stay civil here, seems to be working out!
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:40 PM
It was good to speak with you as well. But I didn’t intend to uplift you. I had hoped to bring you down as I have been brought down and put in my place.
Your external revelation cannot be compared with scripture because it is contradictory to it. Joseph Smith and his following prophets have said many bad things about it. But another time perhaps.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 1:40 PM
No, I don’t at all, to the contrary. IF you knew me, and not some fictitious imaging you’ve constructed out of your fears, you’d know that.
In fact, I have had a slow time embracing the reverance for Mary, however, remained respectful of and about her throughout my life.
I made one gullible mistake here and that was trying to CORRESPOND with an idiot her who profaned the Catholic Church with that aging, tired old accusational lie by some Protestants and atheists, and that is, that the Catholic Church “worships Mary”.
We don’t, and I tried quite patiently to explain that. “right4life” didn’t want an answer, only reason to continue to pursue her lies, apparently.
Thus, I learned a lesson and that is to never get into a conversation with evil.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:40 PM
RC burns coming out the nose… +1!!
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:41 PM
which you have confirmed, thanks.
you shouldn’t talk to yourself.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:42 PM
Luke 1:48 “For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.”
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:42 PM
Why do you suffer the influences of satan so?
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:43 PM
I call her blessed, I don’t call her the *queen of heaven* she wouldn’t want herself called that either.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:43 PM
Then that would make Jerald and Sandra Tanner Mormon theologians. Is that correct?
right2bright on September 9, 2008 at 1:43 PM
I’ve only talked to you, I haven’t let you influence me.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:44 PM
Of course she was- just not an evil pagan.
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:44 PM
I never called anyone a pagan sinner. But yes she too was a wretched sinner.
Say, what ever did happen to her fast track to sainthood? Hmm.. Could it be that she denied central beliefs of Rome? Nah couldn’t be.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 1:45 PM
Prove that.
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:45 PM
Satan again influence the weak minded and those without faith.
I’ve written here clear as LIGHT that I don’t worship Mary, that the Catholic Church does not instruct a worship of Mary, that Catholics revere Mary as the Mother of God and recognize her as eternal soul holy forever with God.
I can’t be any more clear than that. How you can “read” that Catholics (and me as one) “worships Mary” or “confirms” that we/I do is part of what’s making your mind as sick as it apparently is.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:46 PM
Mary was a christian. a believer in Jesus Christ, not a pagan. no christian would want to be named judas or lucifer, or named after a pagan goddess.
so you think mary is OK with being a goddess huh? amazing.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:47 PM
Ya know what, I fold. S hasn’t replied to me at all and R4L’s in a frenzy… ah well, I tried :)
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:47 PM
But about a person who was a Catholic and who was practicing behaviors the Church considers to be sinful, that’d be a matter of conscience for them that they’d have to work out for their own well being in life and thereafter.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:00 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for clarifying. Does the Catholic Church view abortion differently than contraception? That is, do they recognize a difference between destroying what God MAY create life from (egg and sperm) and destroying life God already HAS created?
I greatly appreciate the strong stand of the Catholic Church on the sanctity of human life. And John as a fetus responding with joy to the presence of Jesus as a fetus is such a neat reminder that the fruit of the Holy Spirit is love. Mary and Elizabeth were both truly blessed to receive God’s gifts of life and salvation.
justincase on September 9, 2008 at 1:47 PM
Blessed-
1. consecrated; sacred; holy; sanctified: the Blessed Sacrament.
2. worthy of adoration, reverence, or worship: the Blessed Trinity.
3. divinely or supremely favored
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:48 PM
And yet as Catholics, that is what the Catholic Church represents or teaches, instructs. Not everyone’s a Catholic, I well recognize that. As a Catholic, I speak of my own beliefs as a Catholic.
But I’ve rarely met a Protestant of any denomination that did not believe that God speaks through prayers and other avenues in religious circumstances. Thus, God is, indeed, “amplifying” His Biblical statements via “revelation knowledge” or otherwise, expanding one’s understanding of what He means, intends, has to “say.”
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:48 PM
Ooops, you used the word, “worship” — right4life will have to go get another pill.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Not a goddess- Queen.
The pagan godess- was NOT named queen of God’s Heaven, but of a false pagan heaven.
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:50 PM
You’ve met one now :) Past the book of Revelation, it is my understanding and belief that divine revelations have come to an end. Prophecies, miracles, speaking in tongues, the whole shebang. We have the Bible now, that and willing men and women to speak it are all that’s needed.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:50 PM
Here’s something I don’t get.
A friend of mine was excommunicated (got the letter from the Pope and all) because he married a Pagan. She had her beliefs and he still went to Church each Sunday and kept up business as usual until the Pope’s letter arrived saying “Get lost!”
So, am I to understand that and average Joe marrying outside of Christianity is a terrible sin, but Sentator Joe and the San Fran Nan going on national TV and promoting abortion is only worth of a call to the Archbishop’s office?
Man, I don’t get Catholics.
Damiano on September 9, 2008 at 1:50 PM
“OR worship”
as in NOT exclusive too
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:51 PM
I’m with you. Got any leftovers? :p
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 1:51 PM
How many people here can UNDERSTAND the meaning of that statement, “WORTHY OF…WORSHIP.”
WORTHY being the key word there, the instruemental expression.
We recognize, as Catholics, that Mary is worthy, to be revered about all humans, not God, not a God, not worshiped but worthy of love and revery.
I guess the nuance is assigned to Catholics only. To some others, it’s just bread and water.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:52 PM
you’ve said it, but you haven’t backed it up with anything. check out the link for that church, mary is pictured as the queen of heaven, with a crown. she’s NOT the mother of God. you imply that she is before Jesus, she is not.
I posted the hail mary…the very word HAIL…
hail
2: enthusiastic greeting
v 1: praise vociferously [syn: acclaim, herald]
I’ll stick to praising God alone, thanks.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:52 PM
show me in the bible where mary is named queen of heaven…you cannot.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:53 PM
God Bless America.
When will Mormons ever learn to actually study and earn a degree from a Catholic seminary before deeming themselves more knowledgeable than a Catholic Bishop?!
Mormons know of other churches nothing beyond what Mormons have said about other churches; and Mormons have said plenty of ugly things about other churches [Catholic Church is the Mother of all Whores]. Any recent back-peddling on their original doctrines sucks as bad as the original “modern revelation” doctrines. Convoluted inbred ignorance doesn’t reach the mark of intelligence, despite rhetoric.
Morons need not respond:
I hate Mormons (I don’t).
I don’t know what I’m talking about (I do).
I think I know it all (I make no omniscient claim).
I am a bigot (I study from different perspectives).
HotAir already went through its 2007-2008 religious revival during the GOP Primary season. No más, por favor.
maverick muse on September 9, 2008 at 1:53 PM
So what does this title – which isn’t found in the Bible, btw – convey to Mary, in terms of authority or responsibilities?
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Show me in the Bible where Jesus told anyone to write down ONE SINGLE WORD?
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:54 PM
by your own words, you worship mary…
revere:
v 1: love unquestioningly and uncritically [syn: idolize, idolise,
worship, hero-worship]
2: be in awe of; “Fear God as your father” [syn: reverence, fear,
venerate]
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:54 PM
Now THAT is weird… considering Paul in his discussions on Marriage covers “If one of you is bound to an unbeliever” and the appropriate actions to be taken in such a situation, none of them involve being withdrawn from.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Answer by question fails.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Well, then, if your perspective is to be followed: “abandon all prayers, you who enter here.”
I paraphrase.
But the dismal end is apparent.
If what you allege were true, then no prayer or reading or curiosity or appeals to God would be made or need to be made or ever be actionable.
I disagree. I do believe that God is unending and forever, that He’ll continue and some of us will with Him, in another time and place as God determines, even after the dreaded “end times” of this Earthly realm whenever that may be.
I don’t believe any of us should go about our lives living as if it’s all over. We can always have a talk with God and God is always going to have something to tell us. Regardless of what time it may be.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:55 PM
Petunia – I’m pretty much sticking my fingers in my ears and lalalaing over the noise in this room, but I can’t walk away without clarifying my offhand statement to you, which you may have confused because your name was the only one I specified before going off on my rant.
Sincerely, your posts stood out to me in this thread, as an attempt to have an edifying discussion about religious doctrine. I love those kinds of discussions as well. Coming from a community that has a fairly even split of faiths, Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, Chaldean, and Protestant, I’ve had discussion about the differences and similarities of various faiths for much of my life, and I’ve enjoyed most of them.
I meant what I said sincerely, and couldn’t turn my back on this feeding frenzy without making sure that you knew that. I don’t blame you for sticking around and continuing to try.
G-d bless you all.
ral514 on September 9, 2008 at 1:56 PM
You need a new dictionary.
revere: to regard with respect tinged with awe; venerate: The child revered her mother.
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:56 PM
Wow. That’s such a blatant distortion of Grue’s statement, it’s certain you did it deliberately.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 1:56 PM
No- answer by non-answer, fails.
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:57 PM
I think it has most to do with going after the lost sheep. God doesn’t WANT any man to perish, thus, we go after the lost sheep. Or, in the case of these two (Bishop and Archbishop), they’re going after these two (very) lost sheep, Pelosi and Biden.
It’d be interesting to know what was discussed, though, I venture to wonder.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:58 PM
Why should Mary be viewed with awe? What did she do in the Bible, other than give birth to Jesus? Jesus Himself put her in her place when she complained to Him. Clearly she’s not to be regarded as having any authority over Christ.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 1:58 PM
Christ never left the world a Bible.
He left the world A CHURCH along with TRADITION.
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM
Show me to what you’re referring. I don’t read minds, maybe right4life can share some of her occultist beliefs with you in that regard.
If you could explain yourself, it’d help. Otherwise, I’ll just toss your negation there in with right4life’s heaping pile of same.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM
so you don’t think the OT is part of the bible? Who do you think is behind the OT and NT?
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 2:00 PM
sick obsession…get some help.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 2:00 PM
Wow… can’t believe I read the whollllleee thread…
But as an Agnostic, reader of Gnostic, semi Pagan, non believer that any of us have it right….
isn’t there a passage about “Judge not, least ye be judged?”
The folks on here calling others EVIL might want to think on that one a bit…
Romeo13 on September 9, 2008 at 2:01 PM
WHAT? She gave birth to Christ. Changed his diapers. Raised him. She does NOT have authority OVER him. But she did raise him.
Tell me- what was Christ’s FIRST miracle? Who ASKED him to do it?
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 2:01 PM
Still lying to lie for lying’s sake, old satan never sleeps.
Be well as can be, there, you nutter. I hope that God answers a few prayers for you and lifts you up out of that pit you’re in.
S on September 9, 2008 at 2:01 PM
Speaks the satan, the accuser, the father of lies.
S on September 9, 2008 at 2:02 PM
Well, the ones I know tend to be nice and law abiding. Overall, they seem to have the most self-consistent philosophy. I find Mormons generally quite friendly and outgoing, but also more rebellious and random.
I’m not sure, but I think all of the bullies I knew in school were Lutheran.
Count to 10 on September 9, 2008 at 2:02 PM
OT IS part of the Bible. Who do you think compiled the Bible?
How was the word spread BEFORE the Bible was compiled?
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 2:03 PM
Certainly not you.
S on September 9, 2008 at 2:03 PM
I think we’ve had a miscommunication.
I believe God answers prayers. I believe he still acts and influences the world. But such actions and influences are no longer products of the miraculous. You pray for someone to recover from an illness or injury? If God says yes, the person’s natural recovery, the doctors attending to them, the medications being applied, etc. will do their duty and the person will recover. If God says no, such measures will fail.
Pray for better fortunes in your life? If you work towards the goal you desire, and God says yes, then I believe what you want will come to you. If he says no, what you desire will simply not be available.
I believe God still acts. I simply believe he does so indirectly – at least, to our view.
I agree with the first part. As for the “end times”, I don’t believe in Premillennial theory.
Again, I agree… to an extent. God will give us the answers we need, but not through divine revelation, miraculous acts, or the interference of divine beings. I believe it will occur through study and diligence, with God’s blessing and aid in understanding. That’s what I meant by quoting Paul in “where there are prophecies, they shall cease” et al.
Hope that clarifies things. :)
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:53 PM
That sounds like Judas’ snide remark that the precious oil a loving woman washed Jesus’ feet with should have been sold and the money given to the poor.
Mother Mary need not be denied whatever adoration Christians may give her. Why would any Christian want to discredit the woman who bore Jesus?
Jesus referenced himself as the Son of Man. That doesn’t stop his disciples from crediting him with being God’s Son. Yes, I reverence Jesus’ baptism and God’s words with the descending dove; as I reverence Peter’s answer when Jesus asked him who Peter thought Jesus was.
If you love a good man, why would you want to detract from his mother’s grace? Jesus gave his mother to John, and should also have been able to have given her care to any of us who love him. If the Catholics have experienced love from God and love for God through their relationship with Mary, and have had divine experiences with Mary, who are you to get in their way?
maverick muse on September 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM
you’re a piece of trash.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM
Did HotAir just goof up on anyone else? Had a scare that I was banned there for a second @_@
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 2:05 PM
Its part of the Nanny state meme…. didn’t want you to eat too much and get overweight…
/s
Romeo13 on September 9, 2008 at 2:07 PM
you act like Jesus plays favorites. its like He’s the Godfather, and if you get his Capo like Mary or one of His ‘boyz’ He’ll do ya a favor.
try reading the reference in Daniel to the ’son of man’. thats why He used it…and the jews knew it.
I don’t…people who give her the same name as a pagan goddess do.
so now you’re calling mary divine. interesting, not surprising. the only example in the bible of an ‘experience’ with a dead person is the one of Saul and Samuel…it wasn’t so good for poor old Saul, now was it???
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 2:08 PM
I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt – I’m not exactly the clearest speaker. All the more ironic that I slip into Grammar Nazi mode sometimes.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 2:08 PM
Cost me more RC… nice one :)
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 2:09 PM
THAT MEANS — thanks for regarding the Holy Bible as you are a Pagan, so you say, well enough to respect that passage, and I mean that sincerely here — THAT MEANS that by what standards one judges, they will be judged.
That as Christians, we ARE TO apply Christian theology and standards and can expect to also then be judged by those standards and that theology.
It does NOT mean “never judge anyone else” or “never form an opinion about anyone else.”
The Bible is filled with requests of the faithful to evaluate and make determinations about the whole Earth and afterlife filled Creation.
If we were not to or never to judge anyone else (or ourselves), we’d be mush and jello and have no principles or beliefs.
Judgement, by the way, “to judge” doesn’t mean to destroy someone (or onesself) but to make a determination and to apply the Word of God to a situation and person/s.
Nothing “wrong” with that. But, rather, a responsibility as we exercise our faith.
WITH THE UNDERSTANDING that we, too, will be judged by what standards we judge others. If you’re doing an honest and sincere best to live within your Christian beliefs and arriving at “judgements” or “evaluations,” conclusions, so to speak, as you go about your life, you can anticipate that by those standards of faith, your own life will be “judged” or evaluated.
S on September 9, 2008 at 2:09 PM
right2bright on September 9, 2008 at 2:09 PM
You do know the difference between Catholics and Lutheran…Lutheran’s read the bible.
right2bright on September 9, 2008 at 2:11 PM
Since I can’t read his or her mind, and there’s been no explanation as to just what he or she was referring to otherwise, I still don’t follow just what this last upset was about.
S on September 9, 2008 at 2:11 PM
the jews compiled the OT, and the books of the NT were widely recognized before the catholic church came along to formalize what was already obvious.
Since Job was perhaps written before the flood, you tell me.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 2:12 PM
Ooooh, satan’s MAD.
Be well. I’ll pray for you.
S on September 9, 2008 at 2:13 PM
That was referring to actions, when you are caught up in the action yourself.
This is the quote that refers to judging other Christian faiths.
right2bright on September 9, 2008 at 2:13 PM
1.) He ;)
2.) I replied with a lengthy post above, clarifying what I thought might be confusing. If you have the time :)
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 2:14 PM
yeah you do seem a bit put out!
but you’re a proud spirit, and hate to be mocked!
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 2:14 PM
Luke 24:44 He said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and in the prophets and psalms must be fulfilled.”
Rev 3:12 “The victor I will make into a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will never leave it again. On him I will inscribe the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, as well as my new name.
Where is Christ telling anyone to write down his words?
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 2:15 PM
no thanks!! I don’t need any prayers from the dark one!
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 2:15 PM
so you’re saying that the bible isn’t inspired by Jesus?
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 2:16 PM
Nothing’s impossible to God. You won’t learn that if you continue to read MAD Magazine instead of the Bible, though.
And seek advice from heretics, instead of Christians.
God’s obviously a whole lot more able and well managed than Man. What we know, we know mostly through God’s miracles. Bible included in that.
Mabye Noah had a few scrolls on the arc with him, maybe God recreated his Old Testament with a family in a cave aferward, who knows.
All we do know is that we know God by faith and we should be rejecting the unfaithful as counsellors, at least, in faithfulness to God.
S on September 9, 2008 at 2:16 PM
huh? now you’re babbling…perhaps there is more than one of you trying to speak….a LEGION..
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 2:17 PM
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