Denver bishop to Biden: Abortion “foundational” issue
posted at 9:30 am on September 9, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Archbishop Charles Chaput has issued a more direct response to a Catholic politician than seen in many years. Chaput takes Joe Biden to task for his strange and contradictory statements on Catholicism and abortion, and indirectly addresses Nancy Pelosi at the same time. He destroys the argument that Catholics can support abortion and calls on Catholics to understand the difference between social-justice programs and abortion:
In 2008, although NBC probably didn’t intend it, Meet the Press has become a national window on the flawed moral reasoning of some Catholic public servants.On August 24, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, describing herself as an ardent, practicing Catholic, misrepresented the overwhelming body of Catholic teaching against abortion to the show’s nationwide audience, while defending her “pro-choice” abortion views. On September 7, Sen. Joseph Biden compounded the problem to the same Meet the Press audience.
Sen. Biden is a man of distinguished public service. That doesn’t excuse poor logic or bad facts.Asked when life begins, Sen. Biden said that, “it’s a personal and private issue.” But in reality, modern biology knows exactly when human life begins: at the moment of conception. Religion has nothing to do with it. People might argue when human “personhood” begins – though that leads public policy in very dangerous directions – but no one can any longer claim that the beginning of life is a matter of religious opinion. …
Abortion is a foundational issue; it is not an issue like housing policy or the price of foreign oil. It always involves the intentional killing of an innocent life, and it is always, grievously wrong. If, as Sen. Biden said, “I’m prepared as a matter of faith [emphasis added] to accept that life begins at the moment of conception,” then he is not merely wrong about the science of new life; he also fails to defend the innocent life he already knows is there.
I’ve written about the difference between social-justice policies and abortion in Catholic doctrine at least twice now, and it’s good to see the Church making the same distinction. They need to make this explicit, because Biden and Pelosi aren’t the only members of the flock who basically bargain socialist policy stands of poverty and health care in order to “buy” their support of abortion. Abortion and explicit cooperation in abortion carry an automatic excommunication from the Church, a burden not found often in the catechism. That is why Chaput calls it “foundational”; respect for human life springs from this belief that humans are at their conception sacred.
Chaput gives faint praise to Biden’s opposition to public funding for abortion, which he has trotted out this election cycle, but that doesn’t appear consistent, either, according to the pro-life site Life News:
As recently as February, Biden voted against an amendment that would permanently prevent abortion funding at Indian health care service facilities. The amendment from Sen. David Vitter would codify a longstanding policy against funding of abortions with federal Indian Health Service (IHS) funds. …
In April 2005, Biden voted against the Mexico City Policy, which President Bush instituted to prohibit taxpayer funding of groups that promote or perform abortions overseas. He also voted for international abortion funding in July 2003.
In a May 2003 vote, Biden also voted for a pro-abortion amendment to repeal the law that prohibits performance of abortions of military base hospitals, all of which are taxpayer-funded. …
Biden voted for taxpayer-funded abortions at military base medical centers in June 2002 as well along with votes in May 1999 and June 2000.
Biden represents himself as a Catholic and a moderate. He’s neither, at least not in terms of his stands on abortion. Instead, he presents a convenient Catholic for the pro-abortion lobby, one that can help bully Catholics into silence on the issue, or worse, mislead them into thinking abortion fits within Catholic doctrine. Chaput’s conclusion hits hard on this point:
American Catholics have allowed themselves to be bullied into accepting the destruction of more than a million developing unborn children a year. Other people have imposed their “pro-choice” beliefs on American society without any remorse for decades.If we claim to be Catholic, then American Catholics, including public officials who describe themselves as Catholic, need to act accordingly. We need to put an end to Roe and the industry of permissive abortion it enables. Otherwise all of us – from senators and members of Congress, to Catholic laypeople in the pews – fail not only as believers and disciples, but also as citizens.
Catholicism is a voluntary association. No one is forced to be Catholic. If Pelosi can’t accept the foundational teachings of the Church, then she should find a church that supports abortion and stop making ridiculous rationalizations about Catholicism. Biden needs something more if he believes human life begins at conception and fails to act to protect it. It’s time for Catholics to demand that politicians who run on their faith begin to act on it as well.
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yeah right, any questioning of the catholic church is evil. sounds like you are the one acting for evil and being judgemental. didn’t know you were qualified to judge my soul.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:24 PM
I’ll explain why I write you are speaking evil for evil intents.
Mary is not dead. Someone who is with God for eternity (in eternal life) is alive, not dead.
Thus, prayers to Mary or other Saints for helps and intercessions is not “praying to the dead.”
And I don’t discern from anything you write that you recognize what eternal life is, other than being “dead.” Which is utter blasphemy as you regard the Bible.
S on September 9, 2008 at 12:24 PM
Well said.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Yes, God brings good even out of our evil and our stuidity too. The God who spoke through Balaam’s ass can even do something worthwhile through my blundering life.
justincase on September 9, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Hoooooooleeeeeee cow.
There’s too much of this on both sides that I disagree with, writing up a contrary post would take an hour and I’m at work.
So instead, I’m just gonna ask everyone to put a leash on it, there’s more than enough blood in the water.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 12:25 PM
If not evil, then, why the utter sarcasm and misrepresentations? What motive do you have if not to entertain evil and to court it?
You’re not insulting the Catholic Church, you’re insujlting your immortal soul.
You misrepresent Christ and Christianity, the very Bible, you insult Christians here with snidery, what more evil is there than that?
The Catholic Church isn’t insulted by you, you insult yourself.
S on September 9, 2008 at 12:26 PM
yes it does actually.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:27 PM
1 Timothy 2:5 declares, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God.
Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, “Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them” (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son?
Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 12:28 PM
Troll is as Troll does.
Loxodonta on September 9, 2008 at 12:28 PM
Nicely put, good sir.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 12:29 PM
Aren’t the prophets experiencing eternal life like Mary? If so why is it that it was forbiden to speak to them when they were “dead” but not the Mary and the saints?
Q:When did God lift this command?
A:When Rome infallible spoke and said, It’s okay now.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 12:29 PM
Yes this is a great example of the fate of the wicked. And no one can come unto God or righteousness without our Savior Jesus Christ. And we all sin and are answerable to the judgement of God for our sins.
But this does not condemn the truly repentant the pure in heart or the honest seeker after truth. There are other scriptures that promise blessings and hope to the peacemaker, the poor in spirit, the pure in heart…
For Mormons life is much longer than our time here on Earth. So being unconverted in this life does not automatically condemn one to an Eternity of misery. If there was not more than this life why did God make all those billions of people who will never hear the name of Christ in this life? Who never have a chance to accept him or reject him? That would be a cruel God indeed.
petunia on September 9, 2008 at 12:30 PM
you ’sir’ are a liar. I have not misrepresented anyone, or anything. the sarcasm is directed at the laughable notion that there is a difference between ‘veneration’ and ‘worship’ there is not.
uh yeah sure *more sarcasm*
again, you’re a liar. you cannot point to an instance where I have done that.
sounds like the catholic church is your god.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:30 PM
Soli Deo gloria!
shick on September 9, 2008 at 12:31 PM
I just wonder if speaking to the physically dead is sorcery, which is forbidden in the OT. Like the Witch of Endor who brought Samuel to speak to Saul. I’m sure Saul could have used Samuel’s counsel but we’re forbidden to contact the dead.
We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses though. I believe the saints surround us and we can gain encouragement and comfort from them. Sometimes they may even speak to us. I just don’t know that we’re allowed to try to talk to them. Know what I mean?
justincase on September 9, 2008 at 12:31 PM
Call it a hunch, but I don’t Bishop Chaput is going to be invited to give the invocation at President Obama’s inaguration. (But I’m sure that on November 5th or so, Obama and Jeremiah Wright will have made peace with one another.)
VastRightWingConspirator on September 9, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Prayer bothers you? Father of lies, satan the accuser.
You should examine more closely and honestly the state of your own soul, is what I think. Prayer will help you, and I’m happy to provide that for you, on your behalf, and I’m sure God will respond with good things for you.
S on September 9, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Around there… even if not that early, I’m pretty sure Obama will be there for Christmas.
(And THANK YOU for putting the discussion back on topic, if only temporarily :D)
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 12:34 PM
That doesn’t make any sense.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Isn’t samuel with God for eternity? then why was it a sin for saul to seek the witch of endor to speak with Samuel?
you twist the bible to match your needs, just like Satan would do.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Okay S, I have to call you on this one. You intentionally misread r2b’s post so you could call him that, and frankly I’m not gonna let that slide.
It’s praying to Mary that bothers him, not just praying. Please no more cheap shots.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 12:35 PM
yeah asking the dead to pray is an ABOMINATION before God. Get a clue, when you talk to the dead, you’re not talking to them, but to your *father* satan.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:36 PM
you ’sir’ are a liar. I have not misrepresented anyone, or anything. the sarcasm is directed at the laughable notion that there is a difference between ‘veneration’ and ‘worship’ there is not.
You’re not insulting the Catholic Church, you’re insujlting your immortal soul.
I’m sorry if prayer bothers you but it bothers satan, too.
Calling me a “liar” won’t solve your problems. Calling the Catholiic Church all manner of hideous crud won’t solve your problems.
I’ll say a prayer (again) for you and this time, ask God to help me forget your miserable accusations and that I had to listen to your baseless drech on this blog this morning.
If you hate the Catholic Church, Catholic Christianity and apparently the Bible so much, as you do other Christians, what exactly is the cause of all that?
S on September 9, 2008 at 12:37 PM
thank you, but I’ve come to expect it from mary cultists….
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:37 PM
Correction: r4l, not r2b. Sorry.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 12:37 PM
They led human lives but attained eternal life with God. Based on an understanding of their particular lives and challenges it is possible to find support during difficult moments, especially if those moments are similar to challenges faced by a saint.
dedalus on September 9, 2008 at 12:38 PM
fool, it doesn’t bother him if you’re praying to him.
speaking the truth always solves problems.
speaking to you is casting pearls before swine. you have to lie and twist what I say to make a point, just like your *father*, the fatehr of lies would do.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Accusations of Satanism: The Godwin’s Law of Religious Debate
Sorry, had to be said :)
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 12:40 PM
CHRISTIANS believe in an eternal soul. We believe that we’re judged by God and that there is an eternal destination for our souls as determined by God by His judgement.
I explain that because I don’t read from you that you are a Christian, just a basher and accuser of them.
Mary is believed by faith (faith absolute, there’s little to no argument about this, nor controversy among the faithful) to be in Heaven, or, with God forever, throughout all eternity. She is not dead, she lives.
Souls who enjoy eternal life with reward (”in Heaven” with God for all eternity) are not dead but live.
If you think that a human death represents annhiliation of soul, body, all that a soul is, that’s not Christianity, that’s lack of Christianity, that’s the absence of Christ and Christianity in your awareness and belief.
Thus, prayers to Mary for intercession are not prayers to “the dead,” but to the living, eternal soul, Mary, mother of God.
S on September 9, 2008 at 12:40 PM
One of the aspects of the behaviour of Sen. Biden, Rep. Pelosi and all the rest is not that they simply pretend to be Catholic, while doing all they can to allow abortions to continue. It is that they fight tooth and claw to undermine, destroy, humiliate, legitimize and otherwise eliminate all those who actually work to defend the unborn.
For example, does anyone imagine that Sen. Biden would ever allow a Pro-Life Justice on the US Supreme Court?
Blaise on September 9, 2008 at 12:41 PM
It’s impossible to be a Catholic and take the positions that Biden, Pelosi, and other politicians have taken. Yes, there is a difference between one’s personal faith and public policy but if one is practicing their faith they can’t possibly think it is acceptable to uphold the practice of killing off unborn life for no other reason than the biological mother decides that a child will interfere with her ability to go clubbing on the weekends.
Personally, I think the church should excommunicate politicians who don’t follow the tenets of faith. Their efforts have killed millions since Rowe v. Wade. They have no place calling themselves Christians.
highhopes on September 9, 2008 at 12:41 PM
No, not at all. In a religious context, “satan” is a messenger of evil. Evil comes on little cat’s paws…
S on September 9, 2008 at 12:42 PM
Ahh…anti-Catholicism, the last acceptable prejudice is alive and well, I see, even here among generally like minded people. *sigh*
There is no need for the Pope to speak Ex Cathedra on Abortion. Scripture and Tradition has done so clearly enough.
As to whether or not the Bishop’s finally speaking out will actually do any good, one can only hope. Only time will tell. As someone mentioned above, a large percentage of self described ‘Catholics’ don’t even go to Mass. However, as an active Catholic, I know there are many liberal Catholics who do. They have been poorly catechised by liberal priests and nuns and weak and/or liberal bishops. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that they really think their socialistic policies are for the greater good and that they can overlook abortion as just one issue among many to support them.
It seems hard to imagine they would not realize the Church’s consistent teaching on abortion, but when it is never addressed from the pulpit (and it never is in many parishes, or as they like to call them, faith communities)and prominent public figures are given a pass, I think many well meaning people really have been scandalized/led horribly astray.
Bishops being loud and clear can only help these people.
No pope ever spoke Ex Cathedra on Galileo’s work. There are actually very few instances when a Pope will. Not everything a pope says is ‘infallible’ or even ‘official’. For example, many suggest that the Pope has condemned the war in Iraq. While he has spoken negatively about things involved, the Church has never made an official declaration that this is an unjust war. Another thorn in liberal Catholics’ sides that they chose to ignore.
pannw on September 9, 2008 at 12:42 PM
And what profanes Christ, is not holy.
S on September 9, 2008 at 12:42 PM
You need to be very careful with this. According to scripture, anything that adds to, changes, or removes from scripture will receive the harshest of punishments…
I am not Catholic. I have several family members and friends who are. However, they seem to be Christian first and Catholic second.
I take a dim view to any human claiming to be infallible, since Biblically, that is solely the providence of God. Not even the greatest of the prophets claimed to be infallible.
For those arguing one side or the other, I strongly recommend reading about the topic on CARM.
dominigan on September 9, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Once again, S, I gotta call shenanigans.
The Bible, as fossten pointed out above, prohibits prayer to anyone but God (and by God, meaning the whole Trinity of course). Yes, I agree Mary’s soul is still alive – which once again you keep intentionally misreading people’s posts to assume that when they say “dead” they mean “completely dead” when context demands that they mean “the mortal body is dead” – but I have to give the correct vote on this one to r4l in saying it’s prohibited to pray to her.
Catholic dogma contradicts this, so if you’re Catholic then it doesn’t bother you (as dogma overrides scripture), but for the rest of us r4l and fossten hit it on the nose.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 12:44 PM
And speaking of the devil.
Belief in the eternal soul and life eternal of Mary to the profane represents “cult” affiliation.
It does not get any more profane than that.
I don’t worship Mary and I know no one who does.
Reverie of Mary is appropriate and real, worship of her is not.
The Church does not instruct nor encourage worship of anyone except God the Father, Christ His only son and the Holy Spirit.
But satan hates that and calls it a cult.
S on September 9, 2008 at 12:44 PM
Samuel lives eternally too…so answer the question, why was it a sin for Saul to inquire of him?
you cannot, you’ve ducked it to this point.
tell that to Samuel, when he condemned saul to death for doing this.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:45 PM
True but as a mormon you bring baggage that negates it.
It condemns everyone. Where do you see an exclusion there? Please point it out to me. The truly repentant is not saved by his repentance. Christ was condemned for our wickedness. The pure in heart only come to the Son after the Father brings them to Him.
The beatitudes are true but if you keep reading, you’ll see that we do not measure up. The sermon on the mount was terrible news to the followers. They thought they were following the law but discovered that they had broken it many times over. Read it again.
Because creation, the fall, the death of Christ and His ressurection were not for the glory of man, as Mormons believe, but for the glory of God. Who are you to complain against God?
shick on September 9, 2008 at 12:45 PM
As far as I know, the Catholic Church doesn’t say that contraception should be illegal, or that Catholics who practice artificial contraception or advocate for it legally should be excommunicated. Is that correct? It’s a spiritual issue but not a legal one?
The Church does distinguish between “potential life” (sperm and ova) and real, biological human beings. A Christian has a duty to protect innocent human beings from deliberate slaughter. Why would any American politician not have that duty also?
justincase on September 9, 2008 at 12:45 PM
If the shoe fits……
Sound and fury, signifying… nothing!
Vince on September 9, 2008 at 12:45 PM
as I said before, and you were unable to refute, a distinction without a difference.
as far as Satan, tell me who do you think is behind these apparitions of mary?
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:46 PM
The Constitution may not say abortion is murder and that’s as well, the government has no business in personal matters but its the churches responsibility to teach the morals that keep abortion unacceptable and its good to see that happening here.
Speakup on September 9, 2008 at 12:47 PM
and thats the bottom line for people like ‘S’…whatever the church says goes…as I said thats why there was so little outrage among the laity over the pedophile priests….they’re priests so its ok….priests are speaking for God after all….
scary.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:48 PM
Never fear, the Bidens and Pelosis of this modern world are welcome in the Episcopal Church – they don’t beleive in any pesky dogma.
Fuquay Steve on September 9, 2008 at 12:49 PM
There is more to the Christian faith for Catholics than the Bible. We begin with the Bible and use the Bible for reference but hte COMMUNITY OF FAITH is also a part of our religious faith — a contribution of saints in time to add to “witness” for and of Christ.
I’d say the Baptist version of that would be “revelation knowledge.” You BELIEVE by faith that Baptists (and other Christians involved in this form of worship) receive certain words or messages and can prophesy or forecast or advise others as tested by the rest of your community of believers.
That could also be said to be “apart from the Bible” in the sense that, say, Prophet Joan says that “the Lord tells me that Harry and Sally are going to move to St. Louis and start a ministry there.”
That’s not in the Bible. No where in the Bible is Harry or Sally or them moving to St. Louis stated, nor anything about the Prophet Joan hearing from God to tell them so.
But, many Christians will accept that level of prophecy (among personal “revelation knowledge” believed to be God’s messaging directly to them to lead them in their decisions and deliberations) because of faith, becuase of PRINCIPLES OF FAITH IN THE BIBLE.
Same goes for the Catholic Church. Just different nomenclature for most of the same beliefs.
Profaning eternal souls of holy people is not Biblically based, however.
S on September 9, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Mary was assumed into heaven (thus August 15th, the feast of the Assumption) and did not die. Catholics pray to the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints to intercede on our behalf to God. In this country for the time being, we are all free to believe and worship as we choose. God Bless us everyone and God Bless America!
red131 on September 9, 2008 at 12:50 PM
My point is that the 2 key aspects of Mary’s life are higher levels of Magesteria than than the question of abortion.
The church is clear on its teaching on abortion. There is no question that they view it as the taking of a human life.
dedalus on September 9, 2008 at 12:50 PM
Ahhh. Anti-anti-catholicism. You disagree with an anti-catholic so that must make you an anti-anti-catholic bigot.
(Self-victimization is the best argument)
shick on September 9, 2008 at 12:50 PM
Profaning eternal souls of holy people is not Biblically based, however.
That is, in fact, condemned by God in the Bible.
It seems you all have read only the parts you feel most comfortable with and failed to study and try to understand the greater messages about grace, faith and just what good and evil are.
S on September 9, 2008 at 12:50 PM
No pope ever spoke Ex Cathedra on Galileo’s work. There are actually very few instances when a Pope will. Not everything a pope says is ‘infallible’ or even ‘official’. For example, many suggest that the Pope has condemned the war in Iraq. While he has spoken negatively about things involved, the Church has never made an official declaration that this is an unjust war. Another thorn in liberal Catholics’ sides that they chose to ignore.
pannw on September 9, 2008 at 12:42 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thank you for clarifying that. That makes a lot more sense. And it gets us back to the fact that Pelosi and Biden aren’t just disagreeing with the Pope, or any other human being. Protecting innocent life is not a command of man, but of “nature and of nature’s God” (as this nation’s founders would say it).
justincase on September 9, 2008 at 12:51 PM
I agree.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 12:51 PM
“Whoever adds to the words of this prophecy, I shall add unto him the plagues of which I have spoken in this book.”
- Revelation Ch.22
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 12:52 PM
yeah thats whats scary. whatever the priests or pope says goes. thats why penance was so popular…we speak for God, do whateve we say…cool gig if you can get it…
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:52 PM
post the verse. but you are the one profaning her, by elevating her to *the mother of god* the *queen of heaven* which is what you call her…read in Jeremiah for antoher reference to the *queen of heaven*
mary would be outraged by what you have done with her.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Oh also…
“I say now again, if either we or an angel of Heaven speaks unto you other than that which we have brought, let him be anathema.”
- Paul
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 12:54 PM
I stopped here, nothing more needed. I agree completely.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Firstly, I’m growing very fond of Petunia.
Secondly, I’m confused about the point of this thread. Prominent Catholics have been making public statements about Catholic doctrine, and an Archbishop has publicly corrected them.
Which is what many of us were crying out for Muslim leaders to do, and we wanted it done loudly and forcefully. When Muslim leaders failed (by varying degrees) to do so, we took that as an acceptance of the statements made by terrorists. What else could we do? We couldn’t go on believing that Islam is the religion of peace if Islam failed to take on its own followers.
So when high ranking members of the Catholic church step forward to correct their statements, for fear that others will enter into the same confusion, that’s not just their right, it’s their responsibility.
How did that evolve into a bunch of yahoos demanding that Catholics defend every corner of church doctrine? Do they think it was a bad thing for a prominent religious leader to stand against the pro-abortion crowd?
If someone asks me a question about my faith in the spirit of understanding and tolerance, or even simple curiosity from a friend, I generally answer as well as I’m able. By choice.
This bunch is clearly jealous of Catholic church history, so they’re boning up for their own inquisition. Why do you care what a bunch of papists think, so long as they support your political values? If you’re thinking of joining the church, go talk to a priest already. This silliness goes on here every time religion comes up, and it makes the whole lot of us look stupid. It’s our one weak point that turns us into a dogpile of KosKids. I won’t stick my nose into your religion, and I want you to keep your nose out of mine.
It’s plenty bad when the Catholic pile-ons happen, but the Mormon pile-ons were an absolute disgrace.
ral514 on September 9, 2008 at 12:54 PM
Just to chime in for a bit.
As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
There is a lot more in scripture, especially Paul asking other to pray for him. Praying to one who has gone to heaven is not well distinguished, by Paul, from somebody here on earth.
Scripture indicates that those in heaven do hear and do intercede. This is NO WAY goes against praying to God directly but Paul did ask others to pray for him. (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1)
Let’s keep it civil here please.
DrM2B on September 9, 2008 at 12:55 PM
I disagree, but now we’re getting down into context and interpretation and:
1.) Don’t have the time while at work to debate ;) I’m pushing the envelope as it is… and
2.) We’d never come to a consensus anyway.
Thus, it’s been fun, I’ll stick around and watch but I think that’s the last I’m going to contribute, I think I’ve said everything worth saying (at least, that won’t start a flame war).
Au revoir!
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 12:57 PM
The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3).
The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them.
The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers.
Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people?
Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination – activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13).
The one instance when a “saint” is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Similarly, one can make a case against abortion and against Biden without concern over whether his position is consistent with his Bishop. If one disagrees with the Bishop on multiple matters (the Virgin Mary, contraception, etc.) it isn’t compelling for Biden to be knocked for also disagreeing with the Bishop on one or more issues.
dedalus on September 9, 2008 at 12:58 PM
This is amazing. Clearly here you are quoting scriptures that completely contradict your concept of the Nicene God–the Trinity. It is unbelievable that you cannot see it. Let he who has eyes to see, see.
You simply can not prove any point by scriptures alone. Because we all understand the scriptures so differently. And we are each taught that our interpetation of the Scriptures is the correct one and all others are in darkness. When I read your “proofs” all I see is misconception and misunderstanding. Your examples prove nothing accept that you believe them.
This very problem was the whole basis of the founding of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But I fully understand that unless you have a personal witness by the Holy Ghost you will not believe. Things of the Spirit cannot be taught by man. They can only be learned by the Holy Ghost to the spirit of man. When knowledge is learned in this way it can not be refuted. And the scriptures take on their full and intended meanings.
petunia on September 9, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Ex-communication is an outright, last ditch, last option by the Church to and about those who utterly profane and after much advise and counsel — assuring they are informed as to their state of mind and soul — persist in their profanity or, rather, utter work AGAINST the beliefs and such they’re advised upon.
I mean, you’d fire someone who refused to show up for work, right? You’d ask them after coworkers complained, to meet with you, then maybe to go to a counsellor, then maybe to get a lawyer and straighten their lives up, then maybe you’d fire them if there was no improvement nor no indication they wanted to improve.
The Church won’t ex-communicate anyone for practicing birth control. They DO advise what they deem to be sin and in what severity of sin. If you persist in practicing that sin or those sins, you should also then exercise proper conscience and not present yourself (as a Catholic) for the Eucharist during Holy Communion.
However, the Church provides sacraments in addition to Holy Communion — confession of sins, forgiveness of sins with penance, when you’re actually sorry for sins because they offend God (not because you want an excuse and intend to carry on with what you’ve been doing regardless).
The Church is based upon a practice and exercise of conscience between individual and God. No one can make anyone do anything morally, spiritually, not among us humans. We have to assume that people are genuine and serioius when they profess the faith and that they actually believe what they’re professing.
When someone professes the faith and expects to continue to participate in the Sacraments (Eucharist, Holy Communion especially), and yet they’re out and about talking and advocating against many or even one of those primary principles of faith, it calls their character and faith into question.
But no one would ex-communicate anyone even doing that except if they were in a prominent position of influence over others, such as Pelosi, Biden, etc. People who have access to millions of others and actually instruct them in false pretenses and misrepresent basic Church principles, that’s another story.
I’m sure the Bishop/Archbishop know far more than I do and have abilities I lack in these regards, if only due to experience in these matters. With Pelosi, that is, and Biden.
But about a person who was a Catholic and who was practicing behaviors the Church considers to be sinful, that’d be a matter of conscience for them that they’d have to work out for their own well being in life and thereafter.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:00 PM
That’s ripe! We’re jealous of Rome’s historical inquisition! I’ve read plenty of church history and it does equal Rome’s doctrine. That’s why Cardinal Newman came up with the Development of Doctrine. He couldn’t support his tradition from scripture or history.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 1:00 PM
WHAT does the intercession of Mary have to do with this story?
How is THAT relevant to Biden’s rejection of Catholic doctrine?
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:02 PM
The beauty of the Catholic Church is best explained by Chesterton. I highly reccommend it for those with questions. It is my faith that says Mary can intercede for me in my prayers. I worship the Lord with all my heart, and if Mary can help I’m all for it – after all She is his mother.
Fuquay Steve on September 9, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Again Rev.5.8 has the prayers of Christians offered to God. Granted there may not be “asking” by Paul but he made no distinctions betwen saints in heaven and saints on earth in his usage of the term in the scriptures. The prohibition on speaking to the dead is in the context of seances and the like in trying to incant the dead for secret information. Context is very key to understanding. Jesus brought out Elijah and Moses in Matthew. Did Jesus make contact with the dead? No they were alive and taken up, as the scriptures say.
DrM2B on September 9, 2008 at 1:04 PM
Jack squat… it’s simply the inevitable turn of conversation whenever Catholic doctrine comes up.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:05 PM
Oh, boy, I’m probably going to regret this, as I am no theologian and might well be sticking my neck out only to have it lobbed right off by actually being wrong, but here goes nothing.
The book of Samuel is Old Testament. Scripture tells us that we, our immortal souls, are only saved through Christ’s redemption. Samuel did not yet have that and therefore at the time of writing, he was still ‘dead’.
Christ changed many things.
pannw on September 9, 2008 at 1:05 PM
ral514 on September 9, 2008 at 12:54 PM
I apologize, I’m afraid I got a bit carried away. Although my religon teaches that contension is always from Satan. It is a bit fun to argue religion… I hope that last post didn’t feel judgemental. I really believe that all of you are deeply loved of God. And have the deepest respect for you and your religions. (Unless you trash mine :)
petunia on September 9, 2008 at 1:06 PM
satan’s still spouting fear and loathing in Las Vegas about those eeevil Catholics and that eeeevil Catholic Church, right?
He sure has your head spinning around in fear and loathing, I’ll say that much for his pitiful work.
You have a lot of nightmare visions in your fallen human head about a lot of boogeyman stories I’m sure you’ve heard passed down to you through every source other than Divine Grace. God reveals Himself to us in however God choses to even when that includes through a Priest, a group of people praying, a single person of near holiness among us humans with great faith, however, and all of that would and does amplify the Bible, but it does not “replace” it.
Your desperate, negative visions tell you that the Bible is put asunder by this eeeevil Catholic Church and their eeeevil Mary Mother of God (who has to be “dead” and thus, also eeeeevil)…
I mean, seriously, your litany of hatefulness is nothing more than pitiful fear and misinformation agitated by the actual Evil Doer who you allow to sway your mind to such an extent.
I’ve yet to read one tiny thing from you here that is edifying. AS in, indicative of a faith and belief in Christ. Just a lot of fear about the big, terrible, Christians you encounter…
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:06 PM
Yep! G.K.Chesterton was an atheist, turned protestant, turned Catholic. I just bought several of his books a couple of weeks ago. Logic and reasoning well out!
But the most powerful Biblical justification for the intercession of Mary, is provided by former Pentecostal Catholic-hater Doctor Scott Hahn. He’s known as the anti-Martin Luther.
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:07 PM
Very interesting. The similarities between competing false religions, Rome and Utah, have been revealed. Both claim that their organization properly interprets and continually receives revelation for its followers.
Which one to choose?
They both have their claims and sound good.
Which one to choose?
I’m infallible and can’t understand scripture?
Which one to choose?
If I’m infallible and can’t even understand the bible correctly how can I pick the correct infallible interpretter?
Which one to choose?
It’s a good thing God was ready for you guys.
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. – 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 1:07 PM
no he wasn’t.
Matthew 22:32
‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Jesus told the story of Lazarus and rich man…they both lived before Jesus died on the cross.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:09 PM
And WHO determined just what books were to be compiled as The Bible?
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Okay, seriously, I’m trying to be respectful and conversational here, but you’re making it very hard. Your post contains no support, no evidences whatsoever, simply accusation stacked upon accusation (and Godwinist Satanism prominent among them).
R4L’s posts aren’t much better as far as civility goes, but at least he attempts to support his position.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:10 PM
He’s also known in protestant circles as a chicken.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 1:10 PM
S,
Please chill. You’re not winning anyone over by being mean spirited. We do have some kind of common goal here at least in political ideology. We all will encounter people who do not like or do not understand each others faith. This is not a time to be harsh. This is God we’re talking about. Let not the near occasion of the sin of hatred creep in.
God Bless
DrM2B on September 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM
Biden, then, could be more faulted for believing in a false religion than for differing from the Vatican on one of its teachings.
dedalus on September 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM
Someone here profaned and then persisted in profaning Mary. Alleging, profanely, that prayers to Mary for intercession to God represented “praying to the dead” (argh, I can barely tolerate retyping that – I regard that whole perspective as exceptionally profane).
That was the tangent area I attempted to clarify.
Has nothing, specifically, to do with Biden’s rejection of Catholic doctrine, as you call it.
According to Biden, he doesn’t reject Catholic doctrine and so says Pelosi, too.
Yet they espouse doctrine that the Catholic Church does not instruct or represents. Thus, the Church (via Bishop/Archbishop mentioned in this and another article) attempt to counsel both these individuals to find out (probably) (1.) why they’re misinfored, (2.) why if not misinformed they are misrepresenting the position of the Church and (3.) what the state of their persons is (spiritually, mentally, what’s affecting them if anything that may be causing such a contradiction of understanding).
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM
Christ never told anyone to write down a single word.
He did not create a Bible- He created a CHURCH.
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM
Christ’s church recognized not determined the canon of scripture. That’s another rabbit hole I’m not going to follow for now.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM
and what does S stand for hmmmmm?? and when are you gonna answer the questoin about Samuel and Saul Hmmmmmm???
you may want to get the log out of your eye, before you get the spec out of mine!
your *queen of heaven* is evil…
Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.
but again you will not be able to answer this.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:13 PM
DrM2B
I’m not trying to win anyone over nor concerned with such. Thanks for the Blessings, you, too.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:13 PM
Have you seen Hahn in debates with Protestant scholars?
I have.
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:13 PM
Wait a minute! What “Bible” did the early Church follow?
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:14 PM
Oh, for Heaven’s sake, are you utterly devoid of all human and moral decency? I think so, by the way.
The “S” stands for my first name. I think two of God’s non human creatures could probably figure that out before you could from your subterranean confusions.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:14 PM
Coolio… sooo… all those guys who mistranslated the commandment from MURDER to Kill…. got plagued?
Geezzz Louis… I’ve got 4 copies of the Bible behind me on my bookcase… all different… thats a lot of Plague…
Romeo13 on September 9, 2008 at 1:15 PM
still can’t answer the why is OK to talk to mary, but not to Samuel, now can you?
can’t answer about the *queen of heaven* can you?
lets see you twist your way out of this one.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:16 PM
Wanna bet-
[18] Queen of heaven: the Assyro-Babylonian Ishtar, goddess of fertility, whose worship was introduced under King Manasseh and was revived after Josiah’s death. Cakes shaped like stars (Ishtar was identified with the planet Venus) were offered in her honor.
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:16 PM
Letters sent by the Apostles and other teachers (Jude, Luke, etc.). These were eventually compiled and translated into the Bible we know today.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:16 PM
I’ve listen to his tapes and the debates were not with Protestant scholars. Notice how he stopped doing debates when he met his match. He conveniently said that he didn’t want to boast in himself during debates. I have read his pre-catholic work too. He wasn’t so anti-catholic as he leads you to believe.
shick on September 9, 2008 at 1:17 PM
right4life, you’re a nutty idiot. That’s the best I can say about you. Calling you a vehicle for evil is too easy for you, you just dismiss that. So, accept the Idiot of the Year on Hot Air Award, I’m happy to acknowledge you as that, the Idiot of the Year on Hot Air.
I’ve asked you numerous questions here on two pages (maybe more) of comments and you’ve not answered one of them. So, thus, again, you’re lying about that me not answering your questions thing.
You’re an idiot, I have a day, I’m going to go live it. So long.
S on September 9, 2008 at 1:17 PM
correct! so why do catholics call mary the *queen of heaven*????
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:18 PM
As much as most people wouldn’t like it, essentially yeah.
At least, that’s what I believe. I’ve gotten a lot of flak on this site before because of my “Southern Christian” roots.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:18 PM
again, you’re a liar, just like your *father*..
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 1:19 PM
WHO compiled them? And when? and where? Who determined what to leave in, what to leave out?
FiveWays on September 9, 2008 at 1:19 PM
You pull the Satanist Godwin lever, you’re no better than he is… just a thought.
*eats*
Grue in the Attic on September 9, 2008 at 1:20 PM
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