Denver bishop to Biden: Abortion “foundational” issue
posted at 9:30 am on September 9, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
Archbishop Charles Chaput has issued a more direct response to a Catholic politician than seen in many years. Chaput takes Joe Biden to task for his strange and contradictory statements on Catholicism and abortion, and indirectly addresses Nancy Pelosi at the same time. He destroys the argument that Catholics can support abortion and calls on Catholics to understand the difference between social-justice programs and abortion:
In 2008, although NBC probably didn’t intend it, Meet the Press has become a national window on the flawed moral reasoning of some Catholic public servants.On August 24, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, describing herself as an ardent, practicing Catholic, misrepresented the overwhelming body of Catholic teaching against abortion to the show’s nationwide audience, while defending her “pro-choice” abortion views. On September 7, Sen. Joseph Biden compounded the problem to the same Meet the Press audience.
Sen. Biden is a man of distinguished public service. That doesn’t excuse poor logic or bad facts.Asked when life begins, Sen. Biden said that, “it’s a personal and private issue.” But in reality, modern biology knows exactly when human life begins: at the moment of conception. Religion has nothing to do with it. People might argue when human “personhood” begins – though that leads public policy in very dangerous directions – but no one can any longer claim that the beginning of life is a matter of religious opinion. …
Abortion is a foundational issue; it is not an issue like housing policy or the price of foreign oil. It always involves the intentional killing of an innocent life, and it is always, grievously wrong. If, as Sen. Biden said, “I’m prepared as a matter of faith [emphasis added] to accept that life begins at the moment of conception,” then he is not merely wrong about the science of new life; he also fails to defend the innocent life he already knows is there.
I’ve written about the difference between social-justice policies and abortion in Catholic doctrine at least twice now, and it’s good to see the Church making the same distinction. They need to make this explicit, because Biden and Pelosi aren’t the only members of the flock who basically bargain socialist policy stands of poverty and health care in order to “buy” their support of abortion. Abortion and explicit cooperation in abortion carry an automatic excommunication from the Church, a burden not found often in the catechism. That is why Chaput calls it “foundational”; respect for human life springs from this belief that humans are at their conception sacred.
Chaput gives faint praise to Biden’s opposition to public funding for abortion, which he has trotted out this election cycle, but that doesn’t appear consistent, either, according to the pro-life site Life News:
As recently as February, Biden voted against an amendment that would permanently prevent abortion funding at Indian health care service facilities. The amendment from Sen. David Vitter would codify a longstanding policy against funding of abortions with federal Indian Health Service (IHS) funds. …
In April 2005, Biden voted against the Mexico City Policy, which President Bush instituted to prohibit taxpayer funding of groups that promote or perform abortions overseas. He also voted for international abortion funding in July 2003.
In a May 2003 vote, Biden also voted for a pro-abortion amendment to repeal the law that prohibits performance of abortions of military base hospitals, all of which are taxpayer-funded. …
Biden voted for taxpayer-funded abortions at military base medical centers in June 2002 as well along with votes in May 1999 and June 2000.
Biden represents himself as a Catholic and a moderate. He’s neither, at least not in terms of his stands on abortion. Instead, he presents a convenient Catholic for the pro-abortion lobby, one that can help bully Catholics into silence on the issue, or worse, mislead them into thinking abortion fits within Catholic doctrine. Chaput’s conclusion hits hard on this point:
American Catholics have allowed themselves to be bullied into accepting the destruction of more than a million developing unborn children a year. Other people have imposed their “pro-choice” beliefs on American society without any remorse for decades.If we claim to be Catholic, then American Catholics, including public officials who describe themselves as Catholic, need to act accordingly. We need to put an end to Roe and the industry of permissive abortion it enables. Otherwise all of us – from senators and members of Congress, to Catholic laypeople in the pews – fail not only as believers and disciples, but also as citizens.
Catholicism is a voluntary association. No one is forced to be Catholic. If Pelosi can’t accept the foundational teachings of the Church, then she should find a church that supports abortion and stop making ridiculous rationalizations about Catholicism. Biden needs something more if he believes human life begins at conception and fails to act to protect it. It’s time for Catholics to demand that politicians who run on their faith begin to act on it as well.
Blowback
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Yeah why don’t you donks keep attacking Palin’s faith eh?
sven10077 on September 9, 2008 at 9:33 AM
Sums up the whole mess PERFECTLY. Thanks for an excellnt post, Ed.
ManlyRash on September 9, 2008 at 9:34 AM
PWNAGE!
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 9:34 AM
I can’t wait until we get enough Muslim lawmakers in office that they discuss whether or not a law is Islamic or not. It’ll be interesting to see how the Catholics like the debate among politicians in our government concerning whether or not a FATWA should be issued on a Muslim politician taking a stance on a law ‘against their faith’.
I think Catholics would be as alarmed as I am concerning this particular debate. But of course, I’m just a bigot.
ThackerAgency on September 9, 2008 at 9:35 AM
When Biden and Peloser have used “bad facts”, does that mean they lied? They are not only trying to rewrite history, now they are redefining religion. The hate and arrogance never ends.
volsense on September 9, 2008 at 9:35 AM
Hey Biden, try to smile your way out of this…The Catholic church has taken a beating in past years on this issue, I am glad they are finally taking a stance and telling those “faux” Catholics to learn the faith, learn the doctrine.
right2bright on September 9, 2008 at 9:35 AM
Ed–I got out of the Catholic Church years ago because I disagreed with their positions (and any assertion by them that they were the only legitimate Church).
But I’ll always believe that the Catholic Church is trying to play it both ways until the US Catholic Church starts refunding contributions made by pro-choice Catholics.
jim m on September 9, 2008 at 9:36 AM
Pelosi would make a good Wiccan, I think.
BigD on September 9, 2008 at 9:37 AM
Beautifully, wonderfully, directly stated. Absolutely correct.
S on September 9, 2008 at 9:37 AM
Bishop to Pelosi/Biden: Hold the wafer
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on September 9, 2008 at 9:37 AM
Silly Dems. Catholicism is not a buffet. You don’t skip over the items you don’t like.
natesnake on September 9, 2008 at 9:38 AM
Biden represents himself as a Catholic and a moderate.
Biden, a moderate? Ha! Why would any Catholic vote for the lefty party? The Dems are the polar opposite of Catholics.
Tony737 on September 9, 2008 at 9:39 AM
Pelosi has been summoned to a meeting with the Archbishop of San Francisco to discuss her receiving communion in light of her recent comments about abortion and Catholicism.
Pelosi’s response:
In this, she puts the Archbishop on notice that if he pushes this, he risks her support on illegals. She’s actually threatening the church. I did not think she would go that far in public with her leftist liberalism.
JiangxiDad on September 9, 2008 at 9:39 AM
The idea is DONATIONS to God and Christ, not “contributions” that you are depositing so as to collect rent on at some future time, or, a refund of.
Donations are gifts. If you think that “pro-choice Catholics” (whatever that means, because that’s a contradiction of terms) are somehow to have all their gifts they’ve given returned to them, maybe they should start by asking their children for those Christmas presents…they…hey, wait, they didn’t have any children and they never gave them any Christmas gifts, so…
Seriously, would you actually ask for a return of a gift you’ve given? Ask a homeless shelter to cough up those cans of corn you paid for?
S on September 9, 2008 at 9:40 AM
“Where does your property line begin, Joe?”
“Oh that’s a personal and private issue.”
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 9:40 AM
Wouldn’t surprise me. You aren’t terribly bright, that’s for sure.
ManlyRash on September 9, 2008 at 9:40 AM
No, that’s backward. It’s time that catholics start demanding that the church stand by it’s own teachings. phlegger in chicago is pro abortion. The church has no right at this point to tell anyone what to do. I say that and I’m pro life.
peacenprosperity on September 9, 2008 at 9:41 AM
I should add that the Church plays a dangerous game by being in bed with leftists on other social issues, but then wanting that same left to toe the line on abortion.
JiangxiDad on September 9, 2008 at 9:42 AM
LIBERALS ALWAYS LUMP HOUSING EDUCATION HEALTHCARE AND WHATEVER INTO THE CONVERSATION TO BLUR IT THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A LIFE ISSUE AND A STANDARD OF LIVING ISSUE..NO LIFE NO STANDARD
rico101 on September 9, 2008 at 9:42 AM
Chaput rocks very hard. He’s becoming one of the strongest Catholic voices in America. I wish a few more of the bishops had the stones to deny communion to these hypocrites.
Pavel on September 9, 2008 at 9:43 AM
Pelosi should be ex-communicated. I’m no Bishop or Archbishop, nor no Priest, but clearly, this is a woman who is using religious pretense to wage politics. The Church is a sweater or outfit she wears and for similarly cosmetic purposes.
As a Catholic, I do believe that Pelosi should be ex-communicated, same with Biden for that matter, if they do not change their ways and do so, like, soon.
S on September 9, 2008 at 9:43 AM
Be honest, S. The Catholic Church is much more about power and money than it is about religion.
If the Catholic Church is sincere in its belief that pro-choice Catholics have been excommunicated by their actions and believes, then how can the Catholic Church knowingly keep “blood” money that it’s received from those people?
jim m on September 9, 2008 at 9:43 AM
The Church is waiting until after the election to take Ice Ice Friar out behind the woodshed….
it cannot allow itself to be percieved as electioneering but it WILL punish Ice Ice Friar for his misdeeds.
sven10077 on September 9, 2008 at 9:44 AM
And this pretty much goes for ALL religious people.
It’s not easy being a Christian. There are spiritual laws to uphold.
bridgetown on September 9, 2008 at 9:44 AM
They’re atheists. But they know an atheist could never get elected.
lodge on September 9, 2008 at 9:45 AM
If you expect perfection in this world prepare to be disappointed. The Catholic Church is, in its own words, the “Mystical Body of Christ,” that is, both divine and human. Pfleger represents the human side the of the Church – the side that is flawed and imperfect.
Every group of apostles has its own Judas. And every Judas eventually hangs himself.
ManlyRash on September 9, 2008 at 9:46 AM
I’m a Catholic and it is about time the Church holds these politicians and cafeteria Catholics to account.
I can never understand how one can be a Catholic and support abortion. You can’t as a Catholic pick and choose what to support.
jencab on September 9, 2008 at 9:46 AM
lodge on September 9, 2008 at 9:45 AM
I don’t think so. I just think they are hypocrites.
bridgetown on September 9, 2008 at 9:46 AM
The Church has every “right” to issue it’s statements and religious principles and to restate them as many times and as much as it feels it needs to or should.
Membership is not mandatory in the Catholic Church, people associate on principles of faith and the trust of those principles as being present in the Church. People who sneak around and seek compromises to principles should reconsider what they’re otherwise vowing to believe and uphold. I mean, there’s clear cut parts of every Mass wherein every participant swears before God and man what they/we believe…not like it’s hidden information.
S on September 9, 2008 at 9:47 AM
Why not? That’s what they do with the Constitution.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on September 9, 2008 at 9:48 AM
The reason why the US Catholic Church has not made more of a big deal about this is because it will lose a substantial amount of the funds it needs to operate. Pro-choice Catholics by and large have higher incomes.
Again, if the Catholic Church is sincere on this, it should refund donations made by pro-choice Catholics and refuse any further donations by them.
jim m on September 9, 2008 at 9:48 AM
Too bad Biden’s not a Southern Baptist. We believe in soul competency, that is each person has the liberty to choose what his conscience dictates is right and we are responsible before God for his or her faith or the lack of it. Since each person will one day stand before the Lord and give an account of the life we lived, it’s up to him as an individual to make sure he lives right.
Since Biden’s so darn smart, perhaps he can square abortion with God. At the least he wouldn’t have to worry about all those fussy priests.
Oh yeah, almost all Southern Baptists are pro-life!
flyfisher on September 9, 2008 at 9:48 AM
Dominoes Nabiscos Cheerios…Biden, you are excommunicated.
Bishop on September 9, 2008 at 9:48 AM
That is probably true, on both counts. But as such, they represent a much greater threat to the church, or any organized religion, than your typical atheist, who may represent no threat at all.
JiangxiDad on September 9, 2008 at 9:50 AM
I am honest, Jim m and I think you are not. Making accusations based upon one’s own dismal or defeatist outlook is literally revealing only of one’s own dismal outlook.
I always encounter somewhat wounded people on any Catholic Church-themed comment stream who blames the Church for unhealed personal wounds. Maybe you should try to examine your own conscience and see what’s motivating that bitter perspective of yours.
S on September 9, 2008 at 9:50 AM
Tread softly, brother, as this ice is treacherous.
Excommunication means more than throwing someone out of the club. It means being cut off completely from the Church – which is the Mystical Body of Christ – and the sacraments – including the Eucharist.
Spiritually, it is the equivalent of banishment to the desert and the Church does not impart such a sentence lightly. Rather than extinguish a smoldering wick, she does everything she can to reignite the flame of faith.
Don’t forget the parables of the Lost Sheep and the Prodigal Son.
ManlyRash on September 9, 2008 at 9:51 AM
I think instead of calling them out in personal letter and emails sent directly to them – we must all do it very openly – letters to the editor at the very least. It’s a precarious position for the church, lest She lose her exempt status for politicking from the ambo.
Candy Slice on September 9, 2008 at 9:51 AM
As I’ve already written, donations are gifts. No one (I know) gives a gift and then later asks for it to be returned. Feel free to go down to your local shelter, though, and demand that the dogs and cats pay you back for the chow. You could start, also, perhaps, asking a local homeless shelter for the night back that the old homeless guy used on that cot.
S on September 9, 2008 at 9:52 AM
Actually, flyfisher, go back and look at the history of the Southern Baptists. They weren’t particularly pro-life in the early 1970s (one of their spokespeople said the Bible didn’t talk about abortion) and I think they were even part of some mainstream Protestant pro-choice organizations at that time. It wasn’t until the hard right takeover of the denomination (and the forcing out of pastors and educators who disagreed with them) in the early 80s that it all changed.
jim m on September 9, 2008 at 9:52 AM
There are so many liberal catholics now…you know, the killababy left wingers. Religionists in name only.
Biden may be part of that crowd and out of touch with the growing movement to ban baby killing in the United States.
We should force baby killers to move their businesses offshore with gambling. This way, their profits will not be taxed and they can spend all of their blood money.
saved on September 9, 2008 at 9:52 AM
Not really. They are state-ists. Their religion is government. They worship at the Almighty Alter of Taxation and read from the hallowed scrolls of Roosevelt (FD, that is). The goal of the religion of government is to grow ever more omnipresent. To appease said government, just a freedoms must be sacrificed.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on September 9, 2008 at 9:53 AM
The reason why the US Catholic Church has not made more of a big deal about this is because it will lose a substantial amount of the funds it needs to operate. Pro-choice Catholics by and large have higher incomes.
Two assertions. Can you back them up with evidence?
Again, if the Catholic Church is sincere on this, it should refund donations made by pro-choice Catholics and refuse any further donations by them.
You might be able to do that with Pelosi and Biden, assuming they use Church envelopes. But how would an individual Catholic church know if the money in the collection plate comes from someone who is pro-choice? What mechanism would you recommend for that? Follow the parishioner out to the car and check for the Obama bumper sticker?
Mr. D on September 9, 2008 at 9:56 AM
I thought that the Dems/libs practice their religion on the alter of liberalism. That the real problem.
grapeknutz on September 9, 2008 at 9:56 AM
Maybe the Vatican can just sell some of its gold to compensate.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 9:56 AM
It is helpful that bishops are no longer looking the other way on pro-abortion politicians who claim to be Roman Catholics in good standing.
Right_of_Attila on September 9, 2008 at 9:57 AM
Well duh. Not much of a thinker neither.
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 9:57 AM
Actually, S, many churches refuse to take donations or refund them if they are tainted. There was a news article a few weeks back about how a Pentacostal church refused 10% from a multimillion dollar Lottery ticket because it was from tainted gambling earnings.
Could it be that those churches have more integrity than the Catholic Church? Take a hard look at the history of the Catholic Church and you’ll see why I’m saying what I am.
This was a Church that killed the first person to write a comprehensive Bible in English and then turned around and used 90%+ of his translation as their first official Bible. It wants to keep power and authority for the priests and bishops and away from the lay people.
jim m on September 9, 2008 at 9:58 AM
Well, the idea that Pelosi is or would even consider threatening the church with some sort of use of our federal government to “retaliate” based upon her own individual spiritual compromises that the Church attempts to advise her one, seems like a clear-case of someone using the Church as some sort of political tool and not for the purposes that the Church declares as to individual devotion.
I fear I’m not being as clear as I could be, I’ve been up all night dealing with “Spammers”. I do feel that people who persist, however, in identifying as Catholic and yet who reject many or most of the basic faiths we declare as Catholics, ought to be off to other places and out of the Church IF first counselled and remained unrepentant.
In Pelosi’s case, she seems quite hardened to a ratioanliation about the worth of human life itself that bespeaks of a very brutal perspective. Regardless of how prettily she may express herself. Up to the Bishop/Archbishop, I realize, but I can certainly see context for them to consider such a severe action in Pelosi’s case.
IF she refuses to excuse herself from Communion (and I can’t say I can imagine proud Nancy doing that) and persists in waging some sort of “war” with the Church, I’m sure they would not WANT or prefer to lose her, but, some people seem determined to be lost.
S on September 9, 2008 at 9:58 AM
“Hey, that ointment could have been sold to help the poor. Why you pouring it on Jesus’ feet, girl?”
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 9:58 AM
Remember how harshly Ron Paul was bashed for not returning $500 donated to his campaign by a white supremacist.
fossten on September 9, 2008 at 10:01 AM
Many donations are anonymous in the Catholic Church (as also others) and even those identified, I’ve yet to see have written on donation envelopes that someone’s “pro-choice”.
Unless someone confesses what they’re about, the principle of faith and trust exists in the community of the Church. I’ve never seen a pro-choicer stand up and declare themself so while the collection plate is passed. I have, however, seen many pro-choicers refrain from donating, which seems more reasonable an option.
Otherwise, explain to me how any Church can sort through a collection plate and discern which dollar bill or coin is “tainted” and which one isn’t.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:02 AM
Yeah, well said.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:03 AM
There is a theme that keeps coming up in the Old Testament, that the penalty for leaders that lead people away from God is much greater.
If these two truly believe in the Church, its teachings and the need for salvation, they need serious help. I actually pity them both.
Hening on September 9, 2008 at 10:04 AM
You are essentially right (although I would quibble and say many of the leaders weren’t pro-life), but that doesn’t change a single thing I said. Today, almost all Southern Baptists are pro-life. But my primary point was regarding soul competency. The two primary baptist distinctives, historically speaking, were soul competency and the priesthood of the believer. Baptists don’t answer to pastors the way Catholics answer to priests and the church hierarchy.
For the record, I’m lifelong Southern Baptist, but after discovering the Doctrines of Grace a few years ago, I am increasingly uncomfortable in my congregation. And my longtime pastor, Adrian Rogers, was the first “hard-right” President of the Southern Baptist Convention. He took over in 1979 and he handled the liberals in our seminaries like Christ handled the moneychangers.
flyfisher on September 9, 2008 at 10:04 AM
Sin is present in our world, in all of humanity. That some have sinned as Catholics is hardly news, no more than that some have sinned who are not Catholics is not news, either.
Whatever’s wounded you, I wish you the best.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:05 AM
Let’s outlaw abortion in the US and allow the baby killers to operate a cruise line. You know, a kinda Anti-Love Boat. Whenever little sis or mama gets pregnant, they can board the Anti-Love Boat and have the Dr. Mengeles do a quick vac or crush job.
Now, here’s Jack Jones to sing the theme song:
Death, exciting and new
Come aboard, we’re expecting you
On demand abortion, life’s sweetest reward
Let it flow, it floats back to you
Anti-Love Boat soon will be making another run
Anti-Love Boat promises killing for everyone
Set a course for procedure
Your mind on the next romance
And vacuums won’t hurt anymore
It’s an open sore all done off shore
Anti-love
Welcome aboard
Anti-love!
saved on September 9, 2008 at 10:06 AM
September 1991 Gallup poll
————————–
Question: “Do you think abortion should be legal under any circumstances,
legal under only certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?”
INCOME
>50K 30-50 20-30 <20K
—- —– —– —-
Total Respondents 317 385 303 520
Legal Under Any Circumstances 152 141 78 145
Percentage 48.0% 36.5% 25.8% 27.9%
Legal Under Certain Circumstances 132 205 161 255
Percentage 41.5% 53.3% 53.1% 49.1%
Illegal In All Circumstances 24 38 50 93
Percentage 7.7% 9.9% 16.6% 17.9%
Don’t Know/Refused 9 1 14 26
Percentage 2.8% 0.3% 4.5% 5.1%
jim m on September 9, 2008 at 10:06 AM
Y
Heh…and if you consult the gospels you will find it was none other than Judas who said it.
ManlyRash on September 9, 2008 at 10:06 AM
I would never say that we Catholics “answer to Priests.” The Priest is Christ’s Disciple before us. We answer to Christ.
The Priest is a resource for Catholics, by which we can engage in and receive the Holy Sacraments. From the Holy Trinity.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:07 AM
Wow! I’m amazed at how the quality of this particular debate has been raised by the Catholics (who have traditionally voted Democrat – pro life). WOW! The argument is ‘you’re dumb’.
I just don’t know what to say about that. I guess I lose then. I welcome the newly convicted Catholics to the pro-life segment of politics that the ‘excommunicated’ Protestants have been supporting for the past 30 years without fear of being ‘excommunicated’ from their Church.
You should be pro-life without being forced by some foreign entity. You should be pro-life because it is the right thing to do, not out of fear of what the Church will do to you.
But I guess you aren’t bright enough to read the Bible for yourselves or think for yourselves that you have to ask your higher up in God (even to the Pope) what you should think.
I just find it hilarious that these same people wouldn’t make these arguments over other issues – homosexuality, contraception, promiscuity, divorce. . . but of course, the Catholic Church must NOT be questioned.
I look forward to returning to this thread in about 10 years when Muslims in congress debate whether or not a law is against Islam (gay rights). And whether or not they are issued a fatwa if they don’t ‘toe the religious line’.
It’s too bad that I’m just not very bright and not much of a thinker so we can’t actually have much of a debate on this. You Catholics sure are great debaters. No wonder you rely on the Church to speak for you.
ThackerAgency on September 9, 2008 at 10:07 AM
She looks like one to me!
Vntnrse on September 9, 2008 at 10:08 AM
Judas wasn’t always wrong.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:08 AM
As usual Whacker gets upset when anyone wants to enshrine any morality other than his into law.
I’m glad that he is finally starting to recognize just how big a bigot he is.
MarkTheGreat on September 9, 2008 at 10:08 AM
WAIT, I misunderstood that comment. I THOUGHT IT WAS SARCASTIC. Thus, I wrote, well said.
It’s sarcastic, then it’s well said.
Yes, said by Judas, yes indicates lack of faith, lack of respect for Christ, when said sincerely (by Judas), indicates lack of respect for the Wondrous Divinity of Christ.
I thought the statement made here was one of sarcasm…as in, to say such by likes of Pelosi who essentially is saying as much.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:10 AM
Great post Ed and absolutely true. The Catholic church needs to hold politicians in account when they claim to be Catholic but go directly against church doctrines. Archbishop Charles Chaput is to be commended for his forthright condemnation of these two faced politicians that use the Church to their advantage and hurt it’s image in the process. I say this and I’m not even Catholic.
Maxx on September 9, 2008 at 10:12 AM
Let me put it this way:
Pelosi is just about as well as saying “don’t waste that ointtment on Jesus’ feet, it could be sold for (profit/gain, etc.).”
Thus, someone writing that here, I perceived as them writing in in that context and said, “yeah, well said.”
I’d certainly never consider dollars, ointment, precious anything as wasted on Christ or on Christ’s commands, let me put it that way.
Asking for a donation back seems pretty paltry, in my view, by anyone, for any reason.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:12 AM
September 1991 Gallup poll
————————–
Question: “Do you think abortion should be legal under any circumstances,
legal under only certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?”
INCOME
>50K 30-50 20-30 <20K
—- —– —– —-
Total Respondents 317 385 303 520
Legal Under Any Circumstances 152 141 78 145
Percentage 48.0% 36.5% 25.8% 27.9%
Legal Under Certain Circumstances 132 205 161 255
Percentage 41.5% 53.3% 53.1% 49.1%
Illegal In All Circumstances 24 38 50 93
Percentage 7.7% 9.9% 16.6% 17.9%
Don’t Know/Refused 9 1 14 26
Percentage 2.8% 0.3% 4.5% 5.1%
So you base the assertion that pro-choice Catholics make more money than pro-life Catholics on a 17-year old Gallup poll that is for the entire population, not segregated for Catholics?
Doesn’t mean what you say it does.
Mr. D on September 9, 2008 at 10:13 AM
McCain critics say he chose Palin, a woman, to capture the “unthinking” woman voter. As a Obama critic, I’m sure he chose Biden, at least in part, to capture the Catholic voter. In fact, the day after choosing Biden, both Obama and Biden conspicuously ran off to their respective churches to pound the message home.
However, while McCain without a doubt chose a bona fide woman; Obama chose (because all he knows about the Roman Catholic faith is the renegade Father Phleger) a pseudo Catholic running mate. Those of us who respect and obey the teachings of our church know Biden is a CINO, a Catholic in name only.
Thank you again, Ed, for your knowledge and your willingness and ability to succinctly relay the truth about authentic Catholic teaching.
marybel on September 9, 2008 at 10:14 AM
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to misstate Catholic belief. I know you ultimately answer to Christ (we all will!) but from my perspective it seems priests have more control over their congregations than baptist pastors have over theirs, at least historically speaking. Today some baptist pastors are control freaks (see Rick Warren), so my point would have been more valid one hundred years ago than today.
flyfisher on September 9, 2008 at 10:14 AM
ManlyRash, remember when Christ chastised one of his disciples with criticising him when he wanted to prevent Judas from doing his evil deed?
I mean by that that Judas did serve the Greater Good, despite the evil involved, and I believe that’s what Christ was saying when he called his beloved disciple, “you satan.” Meaning, “get out of the way of this Greater Good and let me do God’s work.”
Christ used the evil done by Judas to accomplish the Greater Good. Thus, not everything Judas did/said was wrong.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:16 AM
Damn…I misplaced my spray can of Troll-B-Gone™
Anyone have an extra can handy?
ManlyRash on September 9, 2008 at 10:16 AM
very true, and their holy sacrament is abortion.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 10:17 AM
Can you cite an instance – any instance – in the gospels where Judas was right? Just one.
ManlyRash on September 9, 2008 at 10:17 AM
so what are you?
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 10:19 AM
Christ used the evil done by Judas to accomplish the Greater Good. Thus, not everything Judas did/said was wrong.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:16 AM
Sorry, but this does not follow logically. That good can come from evil actions does not mitigate the evil of the actions.
ManlyRash on September 9, 2008 at 10:19 AM
Right, I didn’t think you were intentionally trying to misstate Catholic belief, I was just trying to assert a Catholic point of view.
The terms, words, there are unique concepts active in denominations and I recognize that. Sometimes a term is used in one denomination that suggests a misunderstanding in another, so I was just trying to chime in there with a Catholic perspective.
It’s a common misrepresentation among some Protestants (and others) (that I frequently read online) to allege that Catholics “worship” a Priest and statues and the Church and Mary and whatnot else. We worship the Holy Trinity. Priests are Christ’s representatives before us but they are recognized as mortal human beings like the rest of us.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:19 AM
I wasn’t aware that Biden was running on his faith. He’s been around for decades and mostly I’ve known him for running his mouth and feeding his ego.
Is Lieberman a good Jew? Is Bush a good Methodist? I can make a decision on Lieberman, Bush, Biden without a bishop, minister or rabbi giving me a report card on their beliefs.
dedalus on September 9, 2008 at 10:20 AM
loved him on the radio, too bad he passed away….
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Christ’s disciple, also. A Priest, however, is under Holy Orders /vows, there’s a difference, or the assumption there of one.
I recognize your Protestant question, however, and respect it. We’re undoubtedly approaching these same terms differently, is what I suspect.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:21 AM
I know this is a fringe view that will never be embraced in America, but I disagree that Mrs. Pelosi should find another church that agrees with her views on abortion.
On the contrary, Mrs. Pelosi should find out from other people who have greater stature than her what they understand to be true, and when she finds a trustworthy source, she ought to make her home there. It’s a lifelong task, and it’s not supposed to be easy.
I certainly won’t tell my kids to figure out the laws of physics first, and then find a college that teaches those laws.
There’s a lot to be said about submitting your personal judgment to an institution that has a disginguished history and frankly knows more than you do. In America everyone thinks they have direct, priveleged access to the truth, and that the trick is simply to find others who share “your truth.” That’s just surreal to me.
jeff_from_mpls on September 9, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Catholic Dems are either:
1. Confused about their faith
2. Intellectually dishonest
3. Generational (my parents were Dems etc.)
4. Equate their party affiliation with JFK
All are piss poor answers. I met a priest at a campaign event and he was livid about the amount of self-proclaimed (not suspected) Democratics in the clergy. To him it made zero sense to align with the Dems. Either be Republican, Independent, or Non-Affiliated. It was easy to JFK at a time when abortion was still illegal.
natesnake on September 9, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Yeah, some things are just self-evident.
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 10:21 AM
hail mary, fully of grace? sounds like worship to me…a distinction without a difference…
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 10:22 AM
“I have betrayed innocent blood.”
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 10:23 AM
like the ‘good’ rev. pfleger…
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 10:23 AM
There is a distinction and a difference between veneration and worship. If you can’t say that Mary – the mother of Christ in glory – is full of grace, then you are in no position to understand why anyone would say it.
Akzed on September 9, 2008 at 10:26 AM
What you’re reading here is a public revelation of the Church’s positions as it applies to members of the Catholic Church.
IF any other politician was a member of “believer” of, say, the Earth God (whatever) (there’s some term for that, Female Goddess Earth something), and you weren’t, you’d probably take a bit of pause and want to know specifically what they believed.
IF they were Methodist and said they were a believer of that Earth God (whatever) “faith,” as a Methodist, you’d take greater pause and really wonder why the person was Methodist and what “type” of Christian they actually were.
I just mean, people with familiarity with denominations recognize hereticism and other violations (or, as in Pelosi’s case, “misrepresentations of the Church’s positions” – a formal way of saying what I’m also saying here) of those denominations, and would react with caution if not concern about who those persons were.
I imagine it’d be the same with, say, that Jewish Rabbi who doesn’t think the Nation of Israel should be pursued — look how Jews worldwide criticised him.
If that Rabbi ran for the U.S. Senate, what would you think the general public reception would be for his candidacy?
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:27 AM
Ouch.
*using pliers to pull the bullet out of my foot*
Very good point. I stand corrected and illuminated. Thank you.
ManlyRash on September 9, 2008 at 10:27 AM
veneration
n 1: a profound fear inspired by a deity [syn: reverence, awe]
2: religious zeal; willingness to serve God [syn: idolatry, devotion]
worship
2. To pay divine honors to; to reverence with supreme respect
and veneration; to perform religious exercises in honor
of; to adore; to venerate.
uh ok….
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 10:29 AM
If you are truly interested in learning what Catholics REALLY believe – as opposed to what you PERCEIVE them to believe – then I suggest you visit the EWTN website and peruse the FAQ section.
ManlyRash on September 9, 2008 at 10:29 AM
We revere Mary as Mother of God. Christ, I believe, as do Catholics, is God. Mary, a human being, full of grace, gave birth to Christ, who is God. She conceived by Divine Grace of God, God’s only Son, Christ. Thus, Mary is revered as full of grace (quote from the Bible said to Mary by her friend, did not indicate WORHSIP of Mary but worship of God within Mary, Christ in Mary’s womb at that time that statement was made to her).
We are just repeating as Catholic a quote from the Bible: “Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.”
It’s not worship, it’s revery. It’s adulation and ultimate respect for the ultimately respectable.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:31 AM
great post, i am seeing the fog lifting.
search your heart, and you’ll know the right answer,
no on will have to tell you, no one should speak for you.
abortion is murder of the innocent.
VTWaldrup on September 9, 2008 at 10:31 AM
He had a profound influence on my life. One of my fondest memories of him is a conversation we had one Saturday morning nearly twenty years ago. After a few minutes our conversation turned to politics. Dr. Rogers spent an hour talking about his experiences praying and discussing the Bible with President Reagan. I would love to have been a fly on the wall.
flyfisher on September 9, 2008 at 10:33 AM
Our worship as Catholics is for the Holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
It’s really profane for some to continue to blasphemy Catholics as being ‘idol worshipers’ and “worshippers of Mary” because we are not and the Church most certainly does not teach, encourage or instruct for anything such as that.
That misunderstanding represents some Protestants just gossiping.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:33 AM
My husband was raised Catholic and left the church because of its stance on abortion and against the ordination of women. (We are both Episcopalians now, which is what Pelosi and Biden ought to be.) He agrees completely that so-called “cafeteria Catholics” are loathsome.
rockmom on September 9, 2008 at 10:33 AM
Could Biden be hanging on to the Catholic Church because of known previous problems Church problems? Or is he just tapping his foot biding time?
Wade on September 9, 2008 at 10:34 AM
been there done that.
right4life on September 9, 2008 at 10:35 AM
Great suggestion, ManlyRash. I love EWTN — it’s a wonderful resource for anyone to access.
S on September 9, 2008 at 10:35 AM
I see your point on that issue. Ultimately, I don’t have a problem if a politician differs from his bishop or rabbi. In fact I’m glad if he takes a principled stand that differs from his church, if he believes he is focused on his responsibility to the Constitution and the American people. It is unreasonable to expect that the views of the Vatican and the American people will always be fundamentally aligned.
Do people care where Bush differs from the United Methodist church? I’m in favor of capital punishment as is Bush. The United Methodists and the Catholic Church generally oppose it. I’ll go with Bush.
dedalus on September 9, 2008 at 10:36 AM
Mary and the virgin birth is one of the cornerstones of Christian faith. Why is it outside the realm of understanding that Catholics venerate her?
natesnake on September 9, 2008 at 10:37 AM
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