And no, she’s not a religious extremist, either
posted at 11:00 am on September 6, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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At least this smear didn’t have anything to do with Sarah Palin’s gender, but it also didn’t have anything to do with the truth, either. Critics have pointed to Palin’s Pentacostal religion as evidence of religious extremism, criticizing the practices of their church, as our NARN producer Mathew Reynolds noted on Thursday. The Miami Herald reported on Palin’s religious spookiness:
Sarah Palin often identifies herself simply as Christian.
Yet John McCain’s running mate has deep roots in Pentecostalism, a spirit-filled Christian tradition that is one of the fastest growing in the world. It’s often derided by outsiders and Bible-believers alike.
Palin was baptized Roman Catholic as a newborn. She was then baptized in a Pentecostal Assemblies of God church as a teen and attended that church until six years ago, when she and her family adopted a different home church, an independent evangelical church.
The New York Times debunks that particular myth today in a look at Palin and the role religion plays in her life. Deep into the article, readers find this factoid that the Miami Herald somehow missed:
One of the musical directors at the church, Adele Morgan, who has known Ms. Palin since the third grade, said the Palins moved to the nondenominational Wasilla Bible Church in 2002, in part because its ministry is less “extreme” than Pentecostal churches like the Assemblies of God, which practice speaking in tongues and miraculous healings.
“A lot of churches are about music and media and having a big profile,” Ms. Morgan said. “We are against that. That is why it is so attractive to politicians because they can just sit there and be safe.”
“We’ve gotten a lot of their people when the other churches get too extreme,” Ms. Morgan continued. However, she added, “If you lift your hands when we’re singing, we’re not going to shoot you down.”
So much for the Palin-as-religious-extremist theme. Even if one was inclined to think of Pentacostalists in such terms — and I’d recommend Matt’s post for an exploration of why it’s not extremism but merely enthusiastic expression — Palin clearly wanted a quieter form of worship. The Herald didn’t make the significance of their move clear, and wanted to leave the impression that Palin’s religious beliefs somehow made her part of a fringe movement.
Still waiting for the Palin-as-extraterrestrial story to appear on MS-NBC ….
Update: Our first comment on this post points out something remarkable about the national media. How long did it take for them to investigate the political radicalism at Trinity United Church of Christ and Jeremiah Wright? 15 months. How long did it take for them to start with Palin and her religious beliefs? Less than a week.
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Isn’t it stunning how quickly the media began investigating Palin’s religious background, but, to date, has not given hardly any effort to put Obama under the same scrutiny. Their thirst for blood cannot be slaked.
Mayhem on September 6, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Still waiting for the Palin-as-extraterrestrial story to appear on MS-NBC ….
—–
Wouldn’t that risk blowing Olby’s cover?
Mew
acat on September 6, 2008 at 11:03 AM
And Black Liberation Theology is “christian,” right? And not at all “extreme?”
coldwarrior on September 6, 2008 at 11:04 AM
She’s going to be completely immune in a few days.. Keep it up MSM tools…
Teh Cuda pwns ju
stlpatriot on September 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Hmmm…. I don’t know about any other candidates with extremist churches…
Those crazy Republicans and their crazy churches…
BKennedy on September 6, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Hey, it turns out she goes to the same sort of church I do…one that is about as far from extreme as you can get in any sense of the word. One more thing to have in common with Sarah. Cool!
So how about the United Trinity church, is there any hint of extremism there?
Nosferightu on September 6, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Ok, now they have to do a story on Black Liberation Theology. It’s marxist roots. It’s crazy beliefs. And the fact that Obama said he believes in it. Someone get Megyn Kelly to do a special.
D0WNT0WN on September 6, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Mayhem on September 6, 2008 at 11:02 AM
i have a feeling the people at Fox are taking notes…
Timing is everything..
stlpatriot on September 6, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Ed, I think they are going to try to imply that because she is religious, therefore she is an extremist.
In LeftyLand, religion=extreme
p40tiger on September 6, 2008 at 11:07 AM
The mainstream media in this country is slimier than a greased eel. The leftist pukes are frantically digging through every trashcan they can find to get dirt on Palin. Yet, not a one of the two-bit jackasses have done any digging on their buddy Obama.
rplat on September 6, 2008 at 11:07 AM
I’ve wondered about this. Bill Clinton developed a sort of immunity because people got lost in the shear volume of legitimate character flaws. All this flack of bogus accusations could do the same for her.
Nosferightu on September 6, 2008 at 11:08 AM
the “speaking in tongues” part always scared me too…
luckybogey on September 6, 2008 at 11:08 AM
I ran across this this morning. Fight The Palin Smears.
A decent start.
PattyAnn on September 6, 2008 at 11:08 AM
Still waiting for the MSM to report on Obama’s communist parents, his communist mentor Frank Davis, his official endorsement by the Communist Party USA, and the statements by prominent anti-USA communists such as Fidel Castro expressing a desire to see Obama elected president. Seems to me that type of information would be a lot more relevant to American voters than the number of Christian churches that Governor Palin has attended.
AZCoyote on September 6, 2008 at 11:09 AM
No surprise at all. Gov. Palin’s church is wrong, unlike Barry O who attends the [W]right church.
Paul Shanklin (via Rush) covered that situation best: http://mfile.akamai.com/5020/wma/rushlimb.download.akamai.com/5020/New/wrightplacewrongpastor.asx
EconomicNeocon on September 6, 2008 at 11:14 AM
I doubt it. It is the immovable presupposition of the left that any candidate’s religious beliefs are extreme if he does not adhere to the standard liberal policy positions, and that no candidate’s religious beliefs are extreme if he does adhere to the standard liberal policy position.
medguy on September 6, 2008 at 11:16 AM
The reason the MSM does not want to touch Trinity United with at 10 foot pool is because if they reported the facts about the church they would be accused of Racism. http://www.tucc.org/black_value_system.html
JeffinSac on September 6, 2008 at 11:16 AM
I’m waiting for the “VP job ain’t worth a warm bucket of spit….so for cripe’s sakes America calm down!!” balloon to be floated…which will turn into another sinker as well…..
Patrick S on September 6, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Let’s face it: the left, media and politicians see ANY religious expression as extreme.
It is one more area we should be protesting, just as that crowd did today.
We need to be doing that same peaceful, but verbally forceful show everywhere, with the media.
Noelie on September 6, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Its not that her former church was too extreme or whathaveyou…
its the whole “policies will not solve our country’s problems until we’re RIGHT WITH JESUS”
um…being right with jesus is not a prerequisite to solving our country’s policy problems
ernesto on September 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM
Another stark contrast with Obama. She leaves…he stays. She is the total polar opposite.
Better lookin’ too. Ooops! Did I just say that?
LtE126 on September 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM
I want to be the first to bring out the almost tapped out metaphor of the MSM as the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
Sarah’s winning.
jeff_from_mpls on September 6, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Am I the only one who notices that the media keeps discussing Sarah Palin as though she were a single mother? “Ms. Palin”?
It’s of a piece with the sexism about her being incapable of raising children and having a job. They’ve erased her husband from the narrative entirely.
Lehosh on September 6, 2008 at 11:26 AM
Speaking as a east coaster who is catholic but doesnt go to church much, this will be a wedge issue for the democrats. I’ve already seen ‘creationist” and various other stuff. I’ll be honest it does spook me a bit on her, but I’m still loving her.
Dash on September 6, 2008 at 11:28 AM
I wonder if there is any videotape of her preacher saying “God damn America.”
This is not an avenue the left should go down. They’ll lose big time. On second thought, maybe they should.
rbj on September 6, 2008 at 11:32 AM
As far as I know, Governor Palin only asked that creationism be discussed in school, as well as evolution. Sounds pretty liberal to me; include all hypothesis.
Governor Palin is a breath of fresh air. I know so many people with so many diverse backgrounds who say they, and I quote, “LOVE HERE”.
bloggless on September 6, 2008 at 11:33 AM
Oops, should read, “LOVE HER”!
bloggless on September 6, 2008 at 11:33 AM
Oh dear. Now I’m really worried. I checked out the published sermons from the Wasilla Bible Church…the one Sarah Palin attends.
Know what I found? Nothing but praise for the Lord, calls to repentence, exhortation to be kinder to others and more joyful in the expression of faith. Everywhere you look it’s Jesus and joy and love.
Bummer. Not one single rant about the unfairness of America or how it is actually a vicious, racist Ameri-KKK-a. Not one single “God-damn America” or glee about its chickens coming home to roost on September 11. Not a single plea for the plight of the poor Palestinians. Not even a word of praise for Reverend Wright, pastor of the church Obama attended for twenty years, who uttered all those things.
Good grief, this is worse than liberals could have imagined. These stupid rubes are actually…Christians./s
ManlyRash on September 6, 2008 at 11:35 AM
This decision of McCain’s to pick Palin seems to be turning out to be a very good one. The strategists who pushed him to consider her, and advocated her as a person to have as his VP with all of her outstanding qialities, and the very predictable results from the left in opposition to her … are very wise indeed.
Some would say that they are a ‘magnificent bastard.’
wise_man on September 6, 2008 at 11:35 AM
Thanks for the clarification….I thought we were entering a new “free love” movement. haha
p40tiger on September 6, 2008 at 11:38 AM
When you see this…tell me who has extreme religion problems.
Topsecretk9 on September 6, 2008 at 11:42 AM
Yep yep, nothing so see hear folk. Don’t discuss this anymore bad media we debunked it!
Typhonsentra on September 6, 2008 at 11:43 AM
I think her church should invite Rev. Wright to come on up and speak to the congregation. You’d get another Oprah-deer-in-the-headlights reaction….probably followed by a not-well-thought-out “have to buy sunglasses first” comment from the Rev.
Patrick S on September 6, 2008 at 11:43 AM
Oh… My…. ….. .. God.
Mental disorder.
And they vote. Their vote for Obama cancels out mu vote for McCain. *is it too early to get a drink?* … looks for the scotch.
wise_man on September 6, 2008 at 11:47 AM
The great thing about Obama is that he’s the gift that keeps on giving. Anything the liberal media wants to try to pin on Palin (or McCain), you can actually say about Obama:
Lack of Experience
Only 3 years in the Senate; two of which have been spent campaigning for President.
Lack of Accomplishments
Courtesy of Chris Matthews of all people
Big Money
While his family may not own as many properties as the McCain’s, Obama doesn’t seem to be doing too bad
Nutty Religion
Rev Wright
Shady Business Dealings
Tony Rezko
Questionable Associations
Bill Ayers and (again) Tony Rezko
Drug Use
Obama has admitted to using drugs earlier in his life.
Bad Parenting
How is he going to care for his young children and still fulfill the duties of President?
Anything the liberal media wants to throw at Palin (and McCain) is going to boomerang right back at their guy.
Dagnar on September 6, 2008 at 11:48 AM
As much as I would pay money to see that on Fox News, I’m sure the Wasilla folk are too busy actually practicing their faith and living their lives to be bothered with such silliness.
ManlyRash on September 6, 2008 at 11:48 AM
see o’reilly last night with BO?
bill: so you didn’t know Wright gave those sermons
BO: i wasn’t in attendence on those occassions
Bill: they had tapes of those sermons for sale in the lobby.
DrW on September 6, 2008 at 11:49 AM
OMG…LOL!!! I haven’t laughed so hard in a long time. My only regret is that that the mournful moment wasn’t shattered by the roar of a Huskvarna 28″ gas-powered chainsaw.
Thanks, Top. That made my morning.
ManlyRash on September 6, 2008 at 11:51 AM
God! These people need to be sterilized so that they can’t pass on those defective genes onto another generation.
thekingtut on September 6, 2008 at 11:52 AM
As a Mormon and after finding such intolerance in the Republican Primary I have been trying to ignore that nagging little voice saying…”She’s really exterme on abortion how tolerant is she towards other religons?”
I feel comforted knowing that she is in a quiet church of honest seekers. I really don’t know anything about Penecostals… Any information I have would be from former Penecostals who now are Mormons and of course they had a reason to leave, and wouldn’t be represenitive. But for the most part speaking ill of others is strongly discouraged.
My small hometown in WA had a Bible Church like Palin’s. I found my friends who went there to be very kind and genuinely (in my humble opinion of course)Christian in word and deed.
I think that is a valid point of worry… but there is a difference between believing something is true and forcing others to believe as you do. I don’t see any indication that she is doing anymore than stating her world view. And I love that she begins with making her own heart right.
I think that is a way of saying that if something is not God’s will it isn’t likely to go well. So trying to discover and do God’s will is the most effective way to proceed.
If you don’t come from that way of thinking it probably does seem strange.
petunia on September 6, 2008 at 11:52 AM
wiseman-those creatures may not cancel out your vote. If as likely they are in solidly blue states, they have no effect on the electoral college. It’s mainly in swing states that they would have any impact on your vote and possibly cancel your vote (assuming that they actually vote). Keep the faith.
eaglewingz08 on September 6, 2008 at 11:58 AM
Yup. They are morning a crop. …. Crop. Of plants. That we harvest and turn into furniture, and news papers.
As if someone out there is morning the death of a tomato plant. Or every time the walk into a grocery store, they say a prayer to every ear of corn in the bin because of the ‘corn holocaust’ that happened.
wise_man on September 6, 2008 at 11:58 AM
The Assembly of Christ is NOT extreme. In fact, with their explosive growth they are flirting with becoming mainstream!
And while I’m not really into speaking in tongues and faith healing, those who adhere to it are still within Biblical teachings:
Different denominations view these things in different manners, but they’re still well within the limits of Christian belief.
Something, I should note, that Black Liberation Theology IS NOT!
That type of theology properly falls under “false teachings.”
Religious_Zealot on September 6, 2008 at 11:59 AM
I just want to chime in a bit before this gets too far. I’ve read two accounts of that report. 1) Palin said that creationism should be allowed to be discussed if that subject came up in the course of teaching evolutionary science and 2) that she was referring to home schooling materials. So I think the reporting on that issue has yet to be totally fleshed out but neither of those explanation seem to indicate what is being spun and Palin wants creationism taught in public schools.
Texas Gal on September 6, 2008 at 12:02 PM
I was born in a time and place which has exposed me to a wide variety of social and religious expression. I’ve gone with friends and family to high-dollar Presidential or museum fundraising dinners, and to tiny wooden churches and tent revivals where people were washing feet and kissing snakes. I’ve had more enjoyable times at the latter than the former.
Sarah Palin’s current church is not extreme in the least. Our great-grandparents would think it slighly liberal for their tastes.
texette on September 6, 2008 at 12:06 PM
The reason MSM isn’t interested in Obama’s church history, in spite of the extremist, no… radical teachings practiced there, is that they think its fine to go to church. They think its even pretty much required for top political figures to have a history of church attendance. The problem they have with Palin as opposed to Obama is that you aren’t supposed to actually believe in it.
Obama didn’t actually believe in the hooey being flung about willy-nilly at Trinity. If he did, he’s have been a 2008 footnote in the mold of Jesse Jackson. Barrack Obama believes in himself and his abilities, which are impressive in some areas, mediocre in others. This is why I think he’s so sensitive to personal critcism. When his critics talk about his inexperience, they are implying that his natural abilities are insufficient to compensate for his thin resume. That makes him angry. Ergo, he can look down upon Palin’s inexperience because, in his mind, she doesn’t have the qualities that he possesses to neutralize it, while he does. So any charge of hypocrisy is therefore rendered Wasilly.
Immolate on September 6, 2008 at 12:06 PM
I stumbled across some Clinton people who feel strongly that Obama’s connections to communists should be vetted. But of course any liberal person would feel that was “MacCarthyism”.
I can’t tell if there is much to his indoctrination or not because the only ones exploring it are strongly opposed to him. I wish there was a fair broker who would look into it so I could feel better about him if he does get into office.
Because if the site I was on were talking about true things. I’m not sure he should get a secrurity clearence let alone be running the country. And people should know it.
At any rate his list of former mentors, friends, advisors, and people who have provided recommendations and money for him are very very very extreme. It is hard to believe that no one in the MSM is worried enough to even debunk the stories openly.
Like well it is claimed that “Frank” was such and such but he was really “such” and “such”. But there is complete silence and cover up.
petunia on September 6, 2008 at 12:07 PM
I was a little sad that one of my tomato plants was killed by tropical storm Hannah this morning. I did not cry or scream though. Kidding aside, these nuts were somewhere in NC. That worries me, I’ll be keeping an eye out for them.
Les in NC on September 6, 2008 at 12:14 PM
I still don’t think they went into rev. Wright’s church and it’s doctrin enough. I think Obama got a great big pass on that one.
4shoes on September 6, 2008 at 12:15 PM
That was disturbing.
4shoes on September 6, 2008 at 12:25 PM
There’s still time, 4shoes.
There’s still time.
Religious_Zealot on September 6, 2008 at 12:26 PM
Bingo! You hit it square Immolate!
4shoes on September 6, 2008 at 12:29 PM
I hope you’re right!
4shoes on September 6, 2008 at 12:30 PM
Did the criticize AmeriKKKa at “Cuda’s church..?
Did they demagogue about ethnic-privalege at “Cuda’s church..?
Did her pastor, on a regular basis, embrace, endorse, and applaud folks like Calypso Louis Farrakhan at “Cuda’s church..?
Did “Cuda’s church recieve BIG money from the feds..?
*
*
I didn’t think so!
Just as with her family, as opposed to that twerp Edwards, and her religion, as opposed to O! sitting in that racist Wright’s church for 20 years; the standards seem to be different depending on wither you have an “R” or a “D” next to your name!
Heck she left her regular church in 2002 because the pastor was too extreme…
S’funny how the O! , a man of absolute moral authority, didn’t do the same when say…O!prah did in the 90’s…
RocketmanBob on September 6, 2008 at 12:37 PM
NYT has an article on this too.
It angered me because reading it I could tell that all their little stories about Gov. Palin were examples of humility before God. Praying for “God’s will”, recognizing God as having shaped her life, ect.
Yet the way the NYT was presenting it was with the intention of painting her as an extreme arrogant religious nut who thinks her will is God’s will, and that is completely the opposite from the truth.
Sackett on September 6, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Amen, brother…see my 11:35 post.
ManlyRash on September 6, 2008 at 12:40 PM
Immolate:
Well said. I bow.
texette on September 6, 2008 at 12:45 PM
AP,
Don’t forget that this line of attack also started with a Daily Kos screed about Palin as Dominionist Stalking Horse.
How many Kos based memes is it so far?
John on September 6, 2008 at 12:55 PM
But does she want to burn you books…?
Early shades of Troopergate…?
J_Gocht on September 6, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Yeah, glad she got away from that nonsense. Of course, belief in the Virgin Birth is enough to gain the disapproval of your typical lib press type. One needn’t be a snake handler to be considered a rube.
Akzed on September 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM
Um…
….No.
Nice try, though.
Michelle has already debunked this meme.
Religious_Zealot on September 6, 2008 at 1:08 PM
This was posted by Captain ED.
wise_man on September 6, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Hey doofus: no books were burned. No librarians were fired. Palin was elected governor and enjoys a better than 70% approval rating. As for “troopergate,” the main character tasered his own preteen stepson.
It’s over, JG. Give it up.
ManlyRash on September 6, 2008 at 1:23 PM
LOL!
FloatingRock on September 6, 2008 at 1:33 PM
As someone who was involved in Pentecostalism for 21 Years……and LEFT in 2004 and went back to the beliefs of my early youth, which is Baptist. Trust me, the Pentecostals, ARE EXTREME, in as much as beliefs are concerned. Not to mention terribly misguided.
The stuff I could tell you about the Assemblies of God boy… it would blow your mind.
However, to be fair, the Baptist, especially the more IFB crowd, are not perfect either, but doctrinally, they’re a bit more sane.
Personally, I’m glad to see she left that bunch of kooks and is going to a Bible-Believing Church.
LibertarianConservative on September 6, 2008 at 1:52 PM
Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me people are trying to dig into someone’s religion…to help Barack Obama? Did they forget that Obama went to a church for 20 years with a pastor named Wright?
DanStark on September 6, 2008 at 1:55 PM
I don’t think the word “extreme” is the right way to describe this kind of Charismatic church. Anyways, leaving a church where they are speaking in tongues (ie, speaking jibberish) indicates good judgment on Sarah’s part, and maybe even reveals she has a true desire to serve the LORD – ie, she wants a true Bible-believing church. Charismatic, tongues-speaking, frenzied jumping up and down and all around church’s, scare me … lol .. same with those faith healers on TV. Of course, the LORD can give anybody the ability to speak and understand multiple languages (tongues are known human languages) and perform miracles WITHOUT A DOUBT, MAKE NO MISTAKE, but today’s ecstatic tongues-speaking movement has nothing in common with the scripturally directed use of foreign languages in the Bible. It is nothing but jibberish. If you’re in one of these church’s get out! Find yourself a fundamental baptist church, or something similar.
“There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.” 1 Corinthians 14:10-11
apacalyps on September 6, 2008 at 1:56 PM
It’s interesting that the MSM are so wrapped in their own bubble that they don’t see that they are just hastening their own demise. They’re gonna take this train wreck right over the cliff. People are already starting to wise up, witness that little uprising at a recent McCain/Palin event.
JimK on September 6, 2008 at 2:02 PM
And that’s a big mistake. I don’t think they understand the danger of putting Obama into office.
apacalyps on September 6, 2008 at 2:07 PM
you sure about that?
1 Corinthians 13:1
[ Love ] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
Paul doesn’t come right out and say it, but he implies that he speaks in the tongues of angels. I wouldn’t be so dogmatic about that. in anther verse paul says not to forbid speaking in tongues, and that he speaks in tongues more than anyone else. but the bible never records paul doing what was done on the day of pentecost. I think the day of pentecost was unusual. When Peter heard cornelius speaking in tongues, there was no indication he understood the tongues.
right4life on September 6, 2008 at 2:17 PM
It’s funny how recently Uh-uh-uh-bama said that he’s been vetted for 19 months and that Palin has only been vetted for a few days.
It took months and months for a mainstream news source (aside from FNC) to report on the nut-job church Ocarter attended, yet they were on Palin’s church practices within days.
It took months for the media to give us details about Doh-bama’s somewhat dysfunctional family, but only days to dig up dirt on Palin’s family.
Barack is a shining jackass.
ynot4tony2 on September 6, 2008 at 2:18 PM
why don’t you enlighten us where the assemblies of God is unbiblical or has unsound doctrine?
what the assemblies belief
I’m not a member of the assembly, but I certainly recognize the great good the pentecostal movement has had. it is the fastest growing part of christianity. What happened at Azusa street was miraculous and has had an effect on every other part of christianity. Thank God for the pentecostal movement!
but the sophisticated and intelligent people (in their own eyes) have always looked down upon the pentecostals. oh well God uses the foolish things to confound the wise.
right4life on September 6, 2008 at 2:23 PM
Have to disagree here. Independant, fundamental, baptist, church’s, are the most scripturally sound church’s in my view. They are true Bible-believing church’s. It took me a long time to get there, but I did. Keep reading your Bible folks and you’ll make it too (smiles).
Independent, Fundamental, Baptist Church Statement of Faith.
I agree.
apacalyps on September 6, 2008 at 2:23 PM
no thats what you good liberals and evolutionists want to do. silence anyone who dares disagree with you, like the good little nazis you are.
right4life on September 6, 2008 at 2:25 PM
As I sit here in South Florida reading the excerpt from the Miami Herald, listening to my 6 parrots babble in the background, I once again rejoice at another reason why pages from this storied journal line the bottom of their cages.
Schmo on September 6, 2008 at 2:52 PM
I’m thinkin’ Sarah would probably fire your bony butt if you so much as looked at her crossed eyed in a devilish manner.
That Manly could definitely be grounds for a physical impairment, discrimination suit…!
She’s all lawyered up.
So don’t you go runnin’ around lookin’ at her crossed eyed.
Yah hear…?
J_Gocht on September 6, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Do you think, maybe, just maybe, the Herald wants FL to go to BO?
jgapinoy on September 6, 2008 at 3:17 PM
With all due respect my friend, when the apostle Paul’s spoke of the “tongues of men and of angels” (1 Corinthians 13:1) that does not provide evidence for the Pentecostal point of view. We need to look at the whole of scripture to understand this. I’m sure you agree. Here’s the bottom line. If scripture can establish that the term “tongues,” when used by men, has to do with communicating in a known human language, then it must be conceded (or strongly considered) that the word “tongues,” when used of angels, similarly signifies an understandable language. This is because scripture CLEARLY tells us that real REAL BIBLICAL TONGUES are ALWAYS recognizable HUMAN LANGUAGES, and are always spoken to humans who understand and TRANSLATE them for others to understand. IF THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN, then as Paul said, it is FRUITLESS, and you are like a BARBARIAN, unable to say “Amen” to what is said.
“Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?” 1 Corinthians 14:10-16
In order for the Pentecostal view to be valid, you need compelling solid contextual evidence to prove otherwise.
apacalyps on September 6, 2008 at 3:35 PM
It’s always been obvious that she’s not a strict Pentecostal, at least not like the Pentacostals I grew up around, just because of her (and her daughters’) hair and dress. And when did Pentacostals start becoming “extremists”? Who’s next, the Amish?
Sheesh.
rightwingprof on September 6, 2008 at 3:40 PM
I grew up in the Pentecostal denomination Assembly of Christian Churches in NY. They are extreme only when it comes to requiring correct behavior and proper appearance as a requirement for salvation which is what causes some Christians to move on from there once they realize that the rules are man’s legalism and we are free in Christ as the Apostle Paul writes in Galatians.
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During my teen years I attended an AG church; my grandmother stated they were liberal and on their way to hell. In reality they were legalistic also but not as rigid.
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My time with AG showed me their emphasis was in speaking tongues and jumping and hollering to feel God’s touch.
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What I have learned is that there are many flavors of worship in the church. We are all part of the body of Christ. I recognize that we have different traditions and worship styles but all believe in, preach, and teach about Christ.
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As a side note to those who have commented about friends who were Pentecostal. Do not throw stones; do not call them kooks. We all have disagreements with the various denominations. I have never been Catholic but I defend Catholic traditions. Why? Because some of their traditions go back 1000 years. It doesn’t take away from their work, their example, nor the message of Christ.
sjramos on September 6, 2008 at 3:45 PM
As I recall The fair governor argued that presenting a system that contrasted with evolution would serve to make the presentation more alive for the kids and more clearly define what evolutionists teach. You could say she proposed a way to teach evolution even better. But the elite of the media sliced and diced what she had said to create the opposite of what she had intended. She said something worth listening to and they twisted it and lied about her. They might have been all ears except for that “R.”
snaggletoothie on September 6, 2008 at 3:52 PM
A very good friend of mine goes to a Pentecostal church. He loves the Lord. Fears the Lord. He’s a fine Christian growing in the faith. Actually, just got off the phone with him. We’re meeting up tonight to watch a movie. That said, he doesn’t speak in tongues and holds the same view I do that tongues is a known human language, and not speaking jibberish. So I’m not specifically against the Pentecostal church. I’m know there are saved people attending them who don’t partake in speaking tongues. I just think these “Charasmatic churches,” the “Charasmatic movement,” have BIG problems and I would recommend anyone willing to listen to try and find another church to attend, particularily find an Independant, Fundamental, Baptist church. That’s my view on it.
Independent, Fundamental, Baptist Church Statement of Faith (I don’t attend this one).
apacalyps on September 6, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Exactly. Well, said.
apacalyps on September 6, 2008 at 4:06 PM
sjramos –
My husband and I were married in an Assembly of God church – we had visited there several times, as one of our good friends was the pastor. There was a lot of praising and hand-waving, very little (but some) speaking in tongues, and once or twice someone would become so overcome that they would faint. It scared my kids to death – but I tried to teach them that these folks were just expressing their faith, and that it was just as real to them as it was odd to us. You’re right; there are as many degrees and flavors of worship as there are people. Seems like I remember from my history that people were scared to death to have a Catholic elected president until 1960 or so.
uncivilized on September 6, 2008 at 4:25 PM
no it doesn’t.
1 corinthians 14:
26What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
if the tongue was a recognizeable human language, then you wouldn’t need an interpreter. someone speaking in tongues does not know the language they are speaking, God doesn’t tell them
obviously not. so they can’t know if someone is there to interpret that knows the language. God has to tell them to speak in a public tongue, and then someone else is given the interpretation. the interpretation is a revelation, its not someone who understand the language.
you know there is a difference between public and private praying in tongues. you should read the verse you quoted:
Paul clearly says he prays with understanding, and in tongues, though he knows not what he is praying. The only time scripture clearly says a tongue was in a language someone else can understand is on the day of pentecost.
The pentecostal view is valid. I don’t know why there is such antipathy, almost hatred, towards the gift of tongues, and those who speak it. is it jealousy? I will continue to follow Paul’s admonition, that you posted, to pray in the spirit, and with understanding. I Thank God for the gift of tongues, and it is truly a gift, and not something I do on my own.
right4life on September 6, 2008 at 6:26 PM
you know you’re very close to saying the independent fundamnetal baptist church is THE church, just as the cultists do. There are problems with every church, because people make it up. You know the assemblies of God kicked out Jimmy Swaggart for seeing prostitues, the catholic church has not behaved as well in the pedophile priest scandal, for example.
no church is THE one and only church, sorry. you don’t like tongues, fine, you have to focus only on certain scriptures, and interpret them a certain way to be against it. maybe you should take Paul’s advise:
1 corinthians 14:
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God.
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
so obviously there are different types of tongues, one meant for men, with an interpretation, and one meant just for God, He knows what you are saying. and you should eagerly desire spiritual gifts like tongues and prophecy.
and take his last word of advise:
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues
right4life on September 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM
The point is not that the Pentecostal view is invalid; it is when a particular church insists that speaking in tongues is a prerequisite for salvation. Speaking in tongues happened/happens, and when there is interpretation it truly is the Glory of God. But it isn’t, and we must employ the whole of Scripture. Paul describes all this in I Cor 12:4-11.
ss396 on September 6, 2008 at 11:39 PM
I’ve NEVER said that! If you’re going to get into a discussion with me Right4life, quote me right! Please don’t put words in my mouth. I’m not saying everybody oughta become an Independent, Tempermental, Fundamental, Right-Wing, Radical, Chicken Eatin’, Baptist, like me. However, if you keep studying you’ll get there okay … lol … Now, what you said about speaking in tongues, uh, … really, you’re making God’s Word say something it does not. Do you yourself speak in tongues?? That would explain alot. It’s either that, or somebody taught you incorrectly because you’re clearly confused on this issue. For instance, your understanding of “unknown tongue” and “edify”. You’re way off about what these mean. And if you don’t understand what they mean it’ll mess you up. Let’s start by explaining what they mean:
“He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.” 1 Corinthians 14:4
Unknown tongue. The word “unknown” is to emphasize that the language being used was one that was not known to the rest of the congregation, and so such an inspired message would be of no value to them. The gift of languages was spectacular, obviously supernatural, but it was useful only if someone hearing it could actually understand it and interpret (that is, translate) it for others, so that they could profit. It was given by the Holy Spirit as a sign of His presence and also to convey a profitable message to at least some of the audience.
Edify. The one possessing the gift of tongues could more easily become puffed up and be tempted to use his ability just to draw attention to himself — that is, to “edify” (or build up) himself. In fact, it is probable that he might even open himself to demonic inspiration, for it is unlikely that the Holy Spirit would inspire a message that would be mere gibberish to it’s hearers. Picture all those frenzied people jumping around babbling to themselves in the Charismatic movement. Does anybody understand a single word they’re saying?! No! It is unintelligible talking. Now here’s the definitive passage on this gift, when it was given at the Day of Pentecost, the result was that “the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold … we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God” (Acts 2:6-7,11). When one really has the Spirit’s “gift of tongues” and uses it properly, then some such result should follow. Otherwise, it is useless, or even dangerous.
That’s incorrect, Rigth4life. You misunderstand the meaning of “unknown tongue” again. “Unknown tongue” means “foreign language” or “another language”. The apostle Paul was well educated and knew several different languages. If in addition, he had the supernatural gift of tongues, as this verse seems to imply, he is saying “Why should I pray in another language?” My own spirit speaks to God, but the understanding of my prayer is unfruitful to those around me. They are unable to agree with me in prayer, or to be blessed by my communication with the Lord. Therefore, I will pray in a language understood by the people so that my spirit can pray and they can understand as well. Paul confirms this in the chapter by saying unless this is done it is FRUITLESS, and you are like a BARBARIAN, unable to say “Amen” to what is said:
“Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret …. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?” 1 Corinthians 14:16
Ecstatic babbling is NOT a sign of the Holy Spirit. And again, according to Paul, speaking in tongues should not be done in the church unless either he or another translator is there to explain what was said:
“If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.” 1 Corinthians 14:28
Paul insists that only one man speak in a foreign language at a time, with never more than three doing this at one meeting, and then only if there is someone present who can translate each message. One can only use the gift of tongues if he knew in advance an interpreter would be there, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” 1 Corinthians 14:33
Sorry right4life, but the Pentecostal view is NOT valid. My prayers are with you that one day you see this. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. P.S. Lastly, this is not about winning an argument for me. God bless.
apacalyps on September 6, 2008 at 11:41 PM
That’s right. Look, I haven’t seen anybody speak in tongues or seen anybody on TV do it either (Biblical tongues are human languages, and are always spoken to humans who understand and TRANSLATE them for others to understand) but, I wouldn’t forbid the use of this gift in case some circumstances should develop comparable to that at Pentecost. I mean, maybe the gift of tongues is finished (some believe that) and Pentecost was a one time event. Could be. One thing I can say for sure, and that is ecstatic babbling is not a sign of the Holy Spirit.
apacalyps on September 6, 2008 at 11:55 PM
According to Paul, speaking in tongues should not be done in the church unless either he or another translator is there to explain what was said:
“If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.” 1 Corinthians 14:28
Paul insists that only one man speak in a foreign language at a time, with never more than three doing this at one meeting, and then only if there is someone present who can translate each message. One can only use the gift of tongues if he knew in advance an interpreter would be there, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” 1 Corinthians 14:33
Ecstatic babbling is NOT a sign of the Holy Spirit.
apacalyps on September 7, 2008 at 12:04 AM
That’s not what the apostle Paul is saying. Paul was well educated and it’s reported he could speak in Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, and possibly other languages as well. If in addition, he had the supernatural gift of tongues, as this verse seems to imply, he is saying that he would far rather speak in church words (a common language) that all could understand instead of a foreign language.
“Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.” 1 Corinthians 14:19
apacalyps on September 7, 2008 at 12:33 AM
you may want to check the mirror. and you obviously don’t read what I posted very closely, because I said I do speak in tongues.
again you mix up public and private tongues. Paul clearly states that:
1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God.
whats so hard about this? why are you SO hung up about this?
to you the only result is some interpretation, and thats not what tongues are ALL about. do you always see some result from your prayer? probably not, is it useless? probably not.
actually its correct. sorry. you really have to twist it.
no he’s not, clearly he says:
and you add (foreign language) to the text, my how presumptuous and arrogant of you to add to the bible. check out what revelation says to those who add to the bible. clearly you impose your interpretation upon scripture.
obviously Paul prays with understanding and in the spirit, in tongues. and all your twisting and ‘interpretation’ can’t change the plain and simple meaning of what he says.
you denigrate the work of the Holy Spirit. you don’t undestand what you speak, and you have to twist scripture to make your points, which I have already refuted, but you don’t even pay me the courtesy of reading what I wrote, you just keep on like a clanging cymbal.
right4life on September 7, 2008 at 9:12 AM
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