Naturally… and the Czech’s provoked Germany into invading Sudetenland, too.

Terp Mole on August 29, 2008 at 3:43 PM

No, the Western powers handed it to us on a silver platter. War was not declared, no battles took place.

Russia may cut off oil supplies to Europe

pseudonominus on August 29, 2008 at 10:37 AM

Time to speed up the Nordstream pipeline.

Failure of Western media fuels Georgian conflict

…Both sides accuse one another of committing genocide – Russia against the ethnic Georgians living in South Ossetia, Georgia against the Ossetians and ethnic Abkhaz. The fact remains, however, that it was Georgian forces that attacked first.

Not that the Western media tells us anything of value or anything that doesn’t have to be questioned before any value can be acquired. But the coverage of the Ossetian War seems especially egregious.

Condoleezza Rice’s comments, comparing the Russian “invasion” of Georgia to the 1968 Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia and bloody put-down of Alexander Dubek’s “Prague Spring” were misguided, unintelligent and embarrassing and, at worst, hate-filled and fear-mongering.

Naturally… and the Czech’s provoked Germany into invading Sudetenland, too.

/forget, rinse, repeat

Goodeye_Closed on August 29, 2008 at 1:44 PM

I think we are in substantial agreement with what to do in the future. The only difference is that I don’t believe that pushing the RF too hard by surrounding them with installations and treaties they have historically viewed as threats is a great idea. How far is not too far? I am too ignorant to say.

I also just don’t like immediate demonization. I lived throughout the Cold War, much of in Europe, and really don’t want to go back to those days. Nor, do I think, do the citizens of the RF. And I do think that matters to their leaders, just as what we think matters to ours.

The next few years will be very interesting.

iconoclast on August 29, 2008 at 1:04 PM

Very true.

Iconoclast said:”What Putin wants now, is to recreate the Russian Empire”

Exactly Icono…and and isn’t that what this is all about?
The west is fearful (rightly so)that Russia wants back in the game and that means recapturing what it can of it’s old territory and possibly some of the previous Soviet sattelites. The thought that they have possibly used the timing of presidential elections with a lame duck prez in the US, Americans involved in a two front war in the M.E., and Iran on the horizon, points to a larger plan than just driving Georgia out of a couple of it’s own provinces.

The point I have been trying to make is that we NEED to fight back the correct way and get everyone on board and NOT repeat the mistakes going into Iraq. Hebrew used one of my posts to insinuate that I am some sort of anti-war troll, but I actually supported going into Iraq and still do support that mission but it has been made more difficult due to faulty intelligence and broken alliances….no one can doubt that!

My take is we can use RF aggression to our advantage now and go ahead with patriot missiles in Poland, radar systems in Czech, more missiles in Ukraine,and possibly sometime in the future, peacekeeping troops in Georgia. But if it looks to the rest of the world and a good percentage of American citizens like “here we go again, the Americans are fighting another war for oil and using lies to drum up a reason”, we will be doomed!

The idea is to avoid a war with a country who has enough nukes to destroy us in the first place, but as we all know, when a dictator sees that the US does not have international support, they feel they can take us on. Saddam did not listen to our threats because some major countries were blasting us at the UN and in the international court of opinion relentlessly.

iconoclast on August 29, 2008 at 12:47 PM

I should have expressed myself more clearly in referring to Putin. I meant, of course, the Putin machine, carefully garnered over several years, in all the right places, and all having their fortunes tied to Putin. It took him awhile to do this, along with removing, in one way or another, any and all opposition, while, at the same time, creating a sense of well-being among the movers and shakers. The fact that “the people” don’t want war is of no concern to Putin – they don’t matter. As with peasants the world over, they exist to be used by the elite, and will do as they are told – or else. A government’s main concern, vis-a-vis “the people”, is to keep them quiet enough that they do not rise up in revolt. Achieve that, while throwing around such platitudes as “glory”, “Motherland”, “freedom”, etc, and they will follow wherever Putin wants to take them.

Of course, this method also works pretty much the world over.

Chimpy on August 29, 2008 at 1:29 PM

yeah, Chimpy, Afghanistan was all about oil.

psychotic moron. Next thing you will be doing is putting out some truther crap.

Isn’t it wet and warm under your rock? Shouldn’t you crawl back under it?

“At the same time their(Taliban) leadership were courted by the US(Bush Admin) — and given a red carpet tour of the country — over a proposed UNICOL natural gas pipeline. Negotiations between the US and the Taleban concerning the pipeline’s route continued right up until September 2001 but the Taleban refused to play ball. The rest is history. A former UNICOL executive Hamid Karzai ended up as Afghanistan’s president and the poppies have never bloomed as brightly.”

And NATO doesn’t use oil?

They don’t act unilaterally as opposed to Russia.

The motives of NATO are well documented at the link I provided. We have absolutely no idea what Russia plans to do; all we have is the evidence of their unwarranted aggression towards a neighboring nation. And, at least to me, that is most troubling.

Give Russia an inch and they’ll take Ukraine.

Hum, OK, whatever. Wanna try again?

Putan gets what he wants with little or no come back from the International community.

I don’t think it is that simple. There has been quite a bit of to and fro on this issue and the RF–which is more than Putin–doesn’t want to be an outcast. Their desire for some sort of support, that they failed to get, from even their own security partners is a real signal that they overstepped.

Cutting off EU gas and oil is a doomsday threat that Putin cannot employ short of all-out economic war. The RF is rebuilding itself, much on oil and gas revenues, and to halt all of that will halt and reverse that progress. What it sounds like the RF was saying to the EU was “start an economic war by initiating sanctions and we will have no reason to not fight back”. As economic ties get closer between the RF and the EU the possibility of either side initiating economic war becomes less and less likely.

The next few years will be very interesting.

nteresting that some think part of the so called Ruski aggression has to do with oil pipelines. Can we now talk about the energy pipeline plans for Afghan before the US invaded? The deal that Bush still had in mind while he courted the Taliban in the first few months of his admin? The pipeline being built there today with protection from US troops?

Yeah, and we hadn’t been trying to talk to the Taliban about working together peacefully for joint economic benefit BDS sufferers like yourself would be castigating the administration for having FORCED the Taliban to attack us.

$&*(^# troll.

Chimpy on August 29, 2008 at 12:48 PM

The US wasn’t the only nation to invade Afghanistan. It’s a NATO operation.

What Putin wants now, is to recreate the Russian Empire – as it was at its hight. Putin isn’t interested in ethnicity et al, he wants the power that an enlarged Empire brings.

You will struggle to find proof of that desire, I do believe.

And you will struggle to find support by the citizens of the RF for that desire. I know you will discount the need for that support, but the RF of today is much, much, MUCH more free and the people are not interested in endless wars for empire.

Finally, the RF cannot implement that supposed desire. Their desire for support does show their overall weakness.

However, I am sure your study of history has shown the geopolitical drives of Russia over the past 200+ years. Mix that in with the demographic disaster that is coming and it does get volatile enough without presuming grand motives by Putin.

What Putin wants now, is to recreate the Russian Empire – as it was at its hight. Putin isn’t interested in ethnicity et al, he wants the power that an enlarged Empire brings.

Bingo.

iconoclast on August 29, 2008 at 12:16 PM

I will not bother to pose an argument with you on Russian history, it is too involved for a blog. However, your mention of Russian protection against Muslims, and others, is irrelevant. What Putin wants now, is to recreate the Russian Empire – as it was at its hight. Putin isn’t interested in ethnicity et al, he wants the power that an enlarged Empire brings.

Supply and demand? Really? Ever tried changing your gas company?

They own the pipe leading to my house. Not the same thing. How much oil and gas going to the EU comes from Africa, the ME, or S. America? Not saying there isn’t some inelasticity, but it isn’t infinite (I _think_ I used that term accurately).