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Democratic convention, night four: Eschaton to be immanentized in Denver

posted at 7:05 pm on August 28, 2008 by Allahpundit
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We’re fully three hours away from Zeus’s descent from Olympus, but the festivities at the temple have begun so here’s your thread to snark. The schedule’s thin until 8:30 p.m. ET or so, when Gore the Baptist comes forth to herald the arrival of The One. Hotline has a few unexceptional excerpts from an advance copy of the speech and the AP has a bit more. Surely this will be the first time in history that a classical Greek setting serves as backdrop for a catchphrase based on the title of an old sitcom.

I doubt I’ll watch, but video will be here later. In the meantime, two quotes for you to meditate on. Number one: “Here we were eating lunch, and it was like the clouds parted and the sun was shining in.” And number two: “At the CNN bar, where the voice of Wolf Blitzer just said everyone will remember where they were when Obama made his speech.” Exit question: A Stonehenge set would have been awesome, wouldn’t it?

Update: Here’s something meatier to chew on. Is there going to be a convention in Minneapolis next week?

Update: The gauntlet is tossed in the comments. Was “Eight Is Enough” a sitcom — or a dramedy? Let the debate rage!

Update: Here’s the transcript of Obama’s speech. Money line from the nominee of the party that’s trumpeted every last setback and downplayed every last gain in Iraq for the past three years: “I’ve got news for you, John McCain. We all put our country first.” That makes twice now during a momentous speech that he’s rewritten his own side’s history. See his 2004 convention keynote, arguing that “there is not a Black America and a White America and Latino America and Asian America” to a party sick to its core with identity politics, for the other.


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Kristol is fast becoming the poster child for white guilt, he is an embarrassment.

I’d shoot for a Black Racist label for him at once. No need to muddle through intermediate stages.

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:24 PM

Kristol goes in the direction the wind is blowing. He called Kerry the surprise winner in 04 when he read the flawed exit poll results.

Wanted to look smart and clairvoyant, came across as an A-1 sucker.

fogw on August 28, 2008 at 11:24 PM

Chris Matthews had better not look at Wikipedia’s article on Henry and the Battle of Agincourt:

Until recently, Agincourt has been fêted as one of the greatest victories in English military history. But, in Agincourt, A New History (2005), Anne Curry contradicts what previous historians have argued, and other contemporary Agincourt historians continue to argue…

…According to Curry, the Battle of Agincourt was a “myth constructed around Henry to build up his reputation as a king”.

Well then. Maybe Matthews was on to something after all!

Gilda on August 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM

Obama crafted this speech by watching a West Wing marathon. Brian Williams basically said this.

Speedwagon82 on August 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM

I think congratulations are due all around for HA’s servers.

jimmy the notable on August 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM

Fox is so obsessed with ‘Fair and Balance’ that they think kissing Obama’s ass would legitimize their slogan.

Pathetic.

jencab on August 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM

This was beyond an excellent speech. I don’t care in terms of I still don’t support higher taxes and limits on trade. So he couldn’t and didn’t convert me. But the guy is an outstanding speaker, and the deliverance was magnificent.

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:22 PM

I disagree. the speech sucked…. It had nothing new, it did not move people, it did not inform people, it did nothing but list a long list of “crimes” It talked nothing about the AMerician ideal of Freedom, I don’t think freedom was mentioned once in the speech. Why was that. It talked nothing about our military, strengthening it, protecting us. Nothing…..just mentioned free food stamps.

unseen on August 28, 2008 at 11:26 PM

We have a lot of hot air!

HornetSting on August 28, 2008 at 11:26 PM

I was glued to the TV set tonight.

Eagles pre-season, Phils vs Cubs at Wrigley and two college football games.

Anything else happen tonight?

fogw on August 28, 2008 at 11:20 PM

No, did the Birds give Fredex a call yet? Has there been a Pinkston sighting? That’s one area where I would like to see “change”, but it appears Lurey is giving us more of the same.

LevStrauss on August 28, 2008 at 11:26 PM

I switched over and listened to FOX for a while and concluded that they have also become one of Obama’s shills.
rplat on August 28, 2008 at 11:23 PM

yeah, I don’t think so,

wise_man on August 28, 2008 at 11:27 PM

kristol and barnes perhaps are like drudge. terminal cds, so obama is a hero to them?

funky chicken on August 28, 2008 at 11:27 PM

McCains ad after that speech! “Job well done…”
Boya!

stuck_in_Obama_land on August 28, 2008 at 11:27 PM

Yep, that has nothing to do with the fact that it wasn’t a great speech.
jimmy the notable on August 28, 2008 at 11:20 PM

A crappy athlete blames his competition.

Bishop on August 28, 2008 at 11:27 PM

Obama crafted this speech by watching a West Wing marathon. Brian Williams basically said this.

Speedwagon82 on August 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM

Oh dear God.

capitalist piglet on August 28, 2008 at 11:27 PM

Longest HotAir thread EVAH!?!?!?!?!?

SouthernGent on August 28, 2008 at 11:27 PM

But the guy is an outstanding speaker, and the deliverance was magnificent.

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:22 PM

The delivery of the speech was not impressive, at all.

progressoverpeace on August 28, 2008 at 11:27 PM

He reads well.

Ronnie on August 28, 2008 at 11:27 PM

Come on, McCain…get angry again. You look weak when you are being bi-partisan.

HornetSting on August 28, 2008 at 11:27 PM

This was beyond an excellent speech. I don’t care in terms of I still don’t support higher taxes and limits on trade. So he couldn’t and didn’t convert me. But the guy is an outstanding speaker, and the deliverance was magnificent.

Wow.

Uh …

I ..

Wow.

cgoode777 on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

Mavericks ad just came on again…At least one example of class tonight on TV, as opposed to that populist pablum from whats-his-nuts.

CapitalistPig on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

Anyone with basic knowledge of the facts can rip appart that speech
LINE
BY
LINE
He spoke so many lies, he twisted so many of McCain’s positions, that I could feel bitterness creeping for how ignorant so many people can be at the same time.

Cardiganfox on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

So be good! For goodness’ sake! Woooooooah, somebody’s coming!/

fiatboomer on August 28, 2008 at 11:18 PM

Tell him about the Twinkie!

Skywise on August 28, 2008 at 11:19 PM

If there’s a steady paycheck involved, I’ll believe whatever you say.

Hammertime on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

I should have watched sports. I wasted minutes of my life on this rubbish and stupid analysis by FOX News. At least Karl Rove will come on.

jencab on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

To reiterate – here is Obama plagarizing the very conservative Calvin Coolidge:

We do not need more intellectual power, we need more moral power. We do not need more knowledge, we need more character. We do not need more government, we need more culture. We do not need more law, we need more religion. We do not need more of the things that are seen, we need more of the things that are unseen. If the foundation be firm, the foundation will stand.
That’s right – one of the most liberal guys ever to run for President plagarizes one of the most conservative Presidents in the history of the US.

As Allah would say, “Nuance.”

fiatboomer on August 28, 2008 at 11:15 PM

I guess Joe Biden helped him with his speech…

Jim M. on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

Did Obama’s speech inspire anyone? I know he had a long list of… “I’ll give you this and this and this,” but did he inspire? He came off as angry tonight and set himself up for a whooping next week.

El_Terrible on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

Ok, I have nothing to add to the comments & insights that have been posted on this board tonight, but with my leg tingling, I simply want to be part of this Historic Moment.

JudetheFossil on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

I just have to say having listened to the O give a few speeches before tonight by far this was the worse one that I have heard from him

tee866 on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

But does delivery alone qualify a speech as “good”?

Yes. This is a convention speech. He didn’t invent it that conventions are now shows. His program sucks. I’ve stated as much repeatedly. No speech however good will change that.

Speaking politically, it was an extremely smart move for him (contrary to AllahPaundit’s advice) to confront McCain on the question of patriotism and ridicule him for essentially saying only Republicans love America. And he did as well as he could in terms of clarifying his past and “celebrity status”.

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

freevillage at 11:22 PM-

Admit it:

It was a Rotten Speech Lamely Delivered.

As ephemeral on the mind as cotton candy on the tongue.

profitsbeard on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

the deliverance was magnificent.

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:22 PM

Quote of the Day.

hillbillyjim on August 28, 2008 at 11:29 PM

tee866 on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

agreed

trailortrash on August 28, 2008 at 11:29 PM

The McCain commercial displays more class than BO can ever dream of. And now if he does the same commercial, he’s just being a copy cat – hahahahahaha – McC’s ad folks are doing a fabulous job

HawaiiLwyr on August 28, 2008 at 11:29 PM

Too bad the world isn’t a giant teleprompter. O could just follow the bouncing ball for 4 years.

Mr_Magoo on August 28, 2008 at 11:29 PM

I really hate to go here, but am I the only one who gets an anti-Christish vibe out of all of this?

RightWinged on August 28, 2008 at 11:16 PM

Nope…. you’re not alone.

MsUnderestimated on August 28, 2008 at 11:29 PM

Well. I guess we’re all not going to need a lot of gas real soon!

Just like any other third world country…

Enjoy the phony speech, you simpering dumbasses, our country’s now going into the toilet, headfirst.

TexasJew on August 28, 2008 at 11:29 PM

Wow, Megyn Kelly is looking smokin’ hot…even more so than normal.

SouthernGent on August 28, 2008 at 11:29 PM

Mmm Megyn Kelly…

fossten on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

Megyn Kelly is SOOOOOO hot…

CapitalistPig on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

Chris Matthews had better not look at Wikipedia’s article on Henry and the Battle of Agincourt:

Until recently, Agincourt has been fêted as one of the greatest victories in English military history. But, in Agincourt, A New History (2005), Anne Curry contradicts what previous historians have argued, and other contemporary Agincourt historians continue to argue…

…According to Curry, the Battle of Agincourt was a “myth constructed around Henry to build up his reputation as a king”.

Well then. Maybe Matthews was on to something after all!

Nice catch!

cgoode777 on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

unseen on August 28, 2008 at 11:26 PM

Yessir, the speech lacked the oomph to really inspire people, it bordered on the “things are really sucking and I’m here to fix it” crap the liberals have been feeding us for decades.

Bishop on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

megggggaaaaannnnn mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

trailortrash on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

Hey Howard…. be careful of the Kool-Aid… remember Jim Jones? Just sayin’

MsUnderestimated on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

Y’all get to watch the hotties…I’m stuck with C-Span

Texan on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

, I don’t think freedom was mentioned once in the speech. Why was that.

It’s because he hates it.

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

I think we can all agree Fox News has reached a new level o Fair and Balanced with Bill Kristol being the only guy who didn’t have a negative opinion aboutthe speech.

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:19 PM

Krauthammer lauded the speech 100%.

the deliverance was magnificent.

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:22 PM

Funniest comment on such a historic night. How appropriate, heh.

Entelechy on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

Speaking politically, it was an extremely smart move for him (contrary to AllahPaundit’s advice) to confront McCain on the question of patriotism and ridicule him for essentially saying only Republicans love America.

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

He screwed this up by challenging McCain in terms of “not having a record”. That was one of the biggest jokes of the speech. There were a lot of them, but that was a doozy.

progressoverpeace on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

Hey… Obama’s “song” was the Bush-Cheney victory song by Brooks and Dunn… One of my favs. Only in America. Do the minions know that they are ripping off BushHilter’s 2004 reelection song??

Illinidiva on August 28, 2008 at 11:18 PM

I said the same thing . . .

Govgirl on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

Longest HotAir thread EVAH!?!?!?!?!?

SouthernGent on August 28, 2008 at 11:27 PM

Evolution thread topped 2000.

fossten on August 28, 2008 at 11:31 PM

1726th!!!!!

- The Cat

P.S. Did he really bring up men passing women up for promotion?

MirCat on August 28, 2008 at 11:31 PM

Go McCain!
God I can’t wait for the RNC. I need some cleansing of intelligence to rid of this slimey liberal junk.

jencab on August 28, 2008 at 11:31 PM

Deliver us from this, freevillage.

Entelechy on August 28, 2008 at 11:31 PM

Did Obama’s speech inspire anyone? I know he had a long list of… “I’ll give you this and this and this,” but did he inspire? He came off as angry tonight and set himself up for a whooping next week.

El_Terrible on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

I can’t say he inspired me but he cleared up my constipation problem.

Old Hippie Vet on August 28, 2008 at 11:32 PM

The only thing missing from Obamas speech was his pledge to put lemonade in all the drinking fountains….

CapitalistPig on August 28, 2008 at 11:32 PM

We are on our own and like it that way- you idiot
ndulik on August 28, 2008 at 10:26 PM

On my own = no government than I want ON MY OWN!
carbon_footprint on August 28, 2008 at 10:27 PM

Too late to second (or third) that sentiment? Well said, both.

Nikita on August 28, 2008 at 11:32 PM

they are saying noone could atract 75000 to a stadium, and neither could BO alone, he had so many bands he hit all groups of people. most people were there for the history not the candidate i bet

trailortrash on August 28, 2008 at 11:32 PM

Rove being magnificent…again.

SouthernGent on August 28, 2008 at 11:32 PM

I hear someone named Obambi, or Obama or something will be running for president… I think he is on the Socialist Party of America ticket, but I might be mistaken.

Dasher on August 28, 2008 at 11:32 PM

I absolutely hate when libs say conservatives “give to the rich”, as Husseiny did tonight. Its not giving; It’s letting them KEEP money they ALREADY have. Giving would mean taxing the lower class and mailing the upper class checks. That ain’t whats happening.

eski502 on August 28, 2008 at 11:32 PM

He reads well.

Ronnie on August 28, 2008 at 11:27 PM

And, as “Plugs” has so intelligently told us, he’s also clean and doesn’t smell like a sick hog.

TexasJew on August 28, 2008 at 11:32 PM

Rove is destroying Obama on Fox.

progressoverpeace on August 28, 2008 at 11:33 PM

Rove is so…thorough. McCain needs to hire him.

fossten on August 28, 2008 at 11:33 PM

I thought is was funny that Obama tried to take a swipe at McCain for having been in the Senate for 26 years when Biden has been in the Senate for 36 years.

keepinitreal on August 28, 2008 at 11:33 PM

Yessir, the speech lacked the oomph to really inspire people, it bordered on the “things are really sucking and I’m here to fix it” crap the liberals have been feeding us for decades.

Bishop on August 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM

this was the “Ask not what you can do for yourselve but what the country can do for you” speech. It seems in the last 40 years the dems have become the opposite of what they wanted to become. They are bankrupt of ideas. their programs do not work, the only thing that works is Freedom and as a party they have abandoned that for their cult hero.

unseen on August 28, 2008 at 11:33 PM

C-span says the Secret Service are calling it 80,000

Texan on August 28, 2008 at 11:33 PM

Ill fix this, then that, and probably this also. I promise, now please vote for me, or my thugs will visit you.

American on August 28, 2008 at 11:33 PM

I really hate to go here, but am I the only one who gets an anti-Christish vibe out of all of this?

RightWinged on August 28, 2008 at 11:16 PM
Nope…. you’re not alone.

MsUnderestimated on August 28, 2008 at 11:29 PM

If you are thinking biblically, he doesn’t fit the prophecy.

Mr_Magoo on August 28, 2008 at 11:34 PM

The only thing missing from Obamas speech was his pledge to put lemonade in all the drinking fountains….

CapitalistPig on August 28, 2008 at 11:32 PM

And replace the Kool Aid he already put there? Nahhhh.

eski502 on August 28, 2008 at 11:34 PM

Just remember folks, Obama supports abortion up through the fourth trimester.

El_Terrible on August 28, 2008 at 11:34 PM

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

First, the obligatory “you’re an idiot”.

And he did as well as he could in terms of clarifying his past and “celebrity status”.

Second, “did as well as he could” is a nuanced sort of phrase for an idiot. That might mean that Obama is f*cked and no clarification of his associations with Ayers, Wright, et al, is even remotely possible. Here I would agree with you completely.

It also might mean you couldn’t figure out a way to say something positive about the dreck that is this speech, but still felt compelled to try – because you are, of course, an idiot – and this is all you could come up with.

Go paint yourself, assclown.

Jaibones on August 28, 2008 at 11:34 PM

Obama’s speech,

lacked,

Zee Cow Bell!haha

canopfor on August 28, 2008 at 11:34 PM

Speaking politically, it was an extremely smart move for him (contrary to AllahPaundit’s advice) to confront McCain on the question of patriotism and ridicule him for essentially saying only Republicans love America.

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

Yes that was smart, for a second-rate traitorous bastard.

TexasJew on August 28, 2008 at 11:34 PM

Fossten: Rove, unfortunately, is villified by the Media and any official association to the McCain campaign would probably sink whats left of the independent vote. I dont believe, however, that he is not working behind the scenes to assist. The man is a political genius.

CapitalistPig on August 28, 2008 at 11:34 PM

What the hell is wrong with Brit?

jencab on August 28, 2008 at 11:34 PM

Smart move, being classy about not trying to upstage BO. Now if BO does it, he’s an ass.

fossten on August 28, 2008 at 11:35 PM

What are the odds of a 3am leak to the press about his VP choice?

tee866 on August 28, 2008 at 11:35 PM

Does the McCain camp REALLY think Obama won’t step all over the Republicans next week, especially if Gustav hits Louisiana?

SouthernGent on August 28, 2008 at 11:35 PM

I’ve counted maybe 4 or 5 callers to C-Span that are underaged to vote… a 13 year-old was just on.

Who are these loser kids sitting up watching C-Span?

Back when I was a teenager, I was out with girls.

Texan on August 28, 2008 at 11:35 PM

A lot of effort was made by the speechwriters to cover up for the fact that Obama has never governed anything.

The speech did not go on to prove that he will at all be competent to govern in the future.

We’re not supposed to look at the Obama behind the curtain, is all I thought about as I listened.

What I did hear loud and clear was a mere boilerplate laundry list of Democrat-policy trial-balloons (without confidence that this man can implement any of it) and complaints about about this decade’s America.

There is nothing magical about the Obama we heard tonight. America will most certainly not get the leadership she deserves if she somehow elects that poser.

Edouard on August 28, 2008 at 11:35 PM

What are the odds of a 3am leak to the press about his VP choice?

tee866 on August 28, 2008 at 11:35 PM

that would be awesome

trailortrash on August 28, 2008 at 11:35 PM

Gruck Feta! Get Brit back on there!

fossten on August 28, 2008 at 11:35 PM

Just remember folks, Obama supports abortion up through the fourth trimester.

El_Terrible on August 28, 2008 at 11:34 PM

I heard that Barry guy wants to kill babies after their born.

eski502 on August 28, 2008 at 11:36 PM

Speaking politically, it was an extremely smart move for him (contrary to AllahPaundit’s advice) to confront McCain on the question of patriotism and ridicule him for essentially saying only Republicans love America.

freevillage on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM”

McCain has proven his patriotism beyond a doubt. Now, tell me, what evidence do we have that this dolt is a patriot? Simply being a wormy politician certainly doesn’t make one patriotic.

rplat on August 28, 2008 at 11:36 PM

What the hell?!! I was hearing McCain’s rebuttal!

jencab on August 28, 2008 at 11:36 PM

O-topia

deedtrader on August 28, 2008 at 11:36 PM

Even my 11-yr-old walked in while I was watching the speech, paused to listen for about 30 seconds and said with great surprise and naivete, “He’s lying! I didn’t know they were allowed to lie!” Poor naive sweetie though people running for president are bound to some kind of honor code to tell the truth. But even in his naivete, he understood within 30 seconds that Barack Obama was lying — something 80,000 spectators and untold millions at home apparently couldn’t discern. Sad.

aero on August 28, 2008 at 11:36 PM

No no… I’ll go so far as say as it was a good speech to HIS people (heh). It was a tactical speech for the moment to win THIS battle to statistically game up the right votes. I’ll give him that.

Kerry did the same thing in 2004. Gore did the same thing in 2000.

But in going for the win of this battle for a probably trite 5% of the Democrat party votes, he’s lost the war, he’s lost a very very VERY powerful moment to express something really great about the first black candidate for President on the day of Martin Luther’s I have a dream speech that would be a hallmark of American history.

Pi**ed away for a few paltry pieces of silver (votes).

And to me that says far, far more to me about the man… and the party… then anything else.

Skywise on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM

Was the speech broadcast in all 57 states?

Jim M. on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM

While on a business trip, I find myself in a hotel across the street from the Nutter Center in Dayton. Hmmm, what will I be doing at noon tomorrow? Anybody know how to get tickets?

Kevin71 on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM

I love Megyn Kelly putting a total screeching stop to political discussion for a minute ..

Priorities are priorities.

Hell, I just came back after running to the other room.

Gotta’ love HD TiVo.

cgoode777 on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM

Ah yes,Liberals like to call names,

no,

scratch that,

love to call names!!!!

canopfor on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM

Anyone with basic knowledge of the facts can rip appart that speech.

Cardiganfox on August 28, 2008 at 11:28 PM

My kid heard the pre-speech discussion about how Barry would cut capital gains taxes…for those who earn less than $250,000 a year, but raise them for everyone else. His response:

That’s retarded! You mean to tell me that you’re better off making $249,000 or less than making $250,100? What’s the point of that?

Buy Danish on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM

Rove was dead on: Obama said he would get rid of wasteful government programs, ok, name one.

Bishop on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM

A lot of effort was made by the speechwriters to cover up for the fact that Obama has never governed anything.

The speech did not go on to prove that he will at all be competent to govern in the future.

We’re not supposed to look at the Obama behind the curtain, is all I thought about as I listened.

What I did hear loud and clear was a mere boilerplate laundry list of Democrat-policy trial-balloons (without confidence that this man can implement any of it) and complaints about about this decade’s America.

There is nothing magical about the Obama we heard tonight. America will most certainly not get the leadership she deserves if she somehow elects that poser.

Edouard on August 28, 2008 at 11:35 PM

The part where he mentioned that if someone doesn’t have a record to run on they try to make people run away from the other candidate instead. Is that why he always links McCain to Bush and rich people?

eski502 on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM

Blech…glad I didn’t watch the speech. Even so, these excerpts are almost more than I can stomach.

[channel surfs, settles on televised fishing]

fossten on August 28, 2008 at 11:38 PM

Leslie Bradshaw on C-Span is a cutie…and made a MST3K reference too! Go Politi-Geeks!

Texan on August 28, 2008 at 11:38 PM

Jaibones on August 28, 2008 at 11:34 PM

Mellow out jail, we do not need the childish language here. If you have a brain you have a vocabulary.

allrsn on August 28, 2008 at 11:38 PM

Rove was dead on: Obama said he would get rid of wasteful government programs, ok, name one.

Bishop on August 28, 2008 at 11:37 PM

He was thinking of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard.

fossten on August 28, 2008 at 11:38 PM

One of the big dogs in McCain’s campaign is an associate of Rove.

texette on August 28, 2008 at 11:39 PM

Gruck Feta! Get Brit back on there!

fossten on August 28, 2008 at 11:35 PM

Now, be nice to Ms. Feta.

fiatboomer on August 28, 2008 at 11:39 PM

That was the most vain, vapid, and anti-Christian speech I ever heard. This guy would e worse than Clinton and Carter combined.

bill30097 on August 28, 2008 at 11:39 PM

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