Pelosi lies about Catholicism and abortion
posted at 1:55 pm on August 24, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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I’m always astounded as to the extent of deception in which pro-choice Catholics indulge themselves, both inwardly and outwardly, to justify their positions. Perhaps there is no balder example of this than Nancy Pelosi attempting to spin the Catholic doctrine on human life today on Meet the Press. Pelosi argues that the Catholic position on human life only developed in the last 50 years and that it doesn’t impact abortion in any case:
REP. PELOSI: I would say that as an ardent, practicing Catholic, this is an issue that I have studied for a long time. And what I know is, over the centuries, the doctors of the church have not been able to make that definition. And Senator–St. Augustine said at three months. We don’t know. The point is, is that it shouldn’t have an impact on the woman’s right to choose. Roe v. Wade talks about very clear definitions of when the child–first trimester, certain considerations; second trimester; not so third trimester. There’s very clear distinctions. This isn’t about abortion on demand, it’s about a careful, careful consideration of all factors and–to–that a woman has to make with her doctor and her god. And so I don’t think anybody can tell you when life begins, human life begins. As I say, the Catholic Church for centuries has been discussing this, and there are those who’ve decided…
MR. BROKAW: The Catholic Church at the moment feels very strongly that it…
REP. PELOSI: I understand that.
MR. BROKAW: …begins at the point of conception.
REP. PELOSI: I understand. And this is like maybe 50 years or something like that. So again, over the history of the church, this is an issue of controversy. But it is, it is also true that God has given us, each of us, a free will and a responsibility to answer for our actions. And we want abortions to be safe, rare, and reduce the number of abortions. That’s why we have this fight in Congress over contraception. My Republican colleagues do not support contraception. If you want to reduce the number of abortions, and we all do, we must–it would behoove you to support family planning and, and contraception, you would think. But that is not the case. So we have to take–you know, we have to handle this as respectfully–this is sacred ground. We have to handle it very respectfully and not politicize it, as it has been–and I’m not saying Rick Warren did, because I don’t think he did, but others will try to.
The notion that the Catholic Church declared abortion a sin at the same time as the Pill is patently absurd, and shows that Pelosi has either lied about studying the issue in terms of Church history or lied about what she found. Church writings specifically naming abortion as murder appear as early as 70 AD in the Didache, the first written catechism of the Christian church:
“The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child” (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).
Tertullian, sometimes known as the Father of the Latin Church, wrote with equal clarity and force:
“In our case, a murder being once for all forbidden, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from the other parts of the body for its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one; you have the fruit already in its seed” (Apology 9:8 [A.D. 197]).
“Among surgeons’ tools there is a certain instrument, which is formed with a nicely-adjusted flexible frame for opening the uterus first of all and keeping it open; it is further furnished with an annular blade, by means of which the limbs [of the child] within the womb are dissected with anxious but unfaltering care; its last appendage being a blunted or covered hook, wherewith the entire fetus is extracted by a violent delivery.
“There is also [another instrument in the shape of] a copper needle or spike, by which the actual death is managed in this furtive robbery of life: They give it, from its infanticide function, the name of embruosphaktes, [meaning] “the slayer of the infant,” which of course was alive. . . .
“[The doctors who performed abortions] all knew well enough that a living being had been conceived, and [they] pitied this most luckless infant state, which had first to be put to death, to escape being tortured alive” (The Soul 25 [A.D. 210]).
Saint Hippolytus, who sometimes found himself in conflict with the Church hierarchy, nevertheless agreed completely on abortion. He made the point that abortion managed to combine the sins of adultery and murder at the same time:
“Women who were reputed to be believers began to take drugs to render themselves sterile, and to bind themselves tightly so as to expel what was being conceived, since they would not, on account of relatives and excess wealth, want to have a child by a slave or by any insignificant person. See, then, into what great impiety that lawless one has proceeded, by teaching adultery and murder at the same time!” (Refutation of All Heresies [A.D. 228]).
The Catholic catechism is extremely clear on the nature of its position on human life, and has been remarkably consistent on this point for almost 2,000 years, and it finds that position in the Old Testament. Human life begins at conception, not at birth, and not at some point consistent with Roe for convenience. In Psalm 51, David refers to his sinfulness beginning at the moment of conception, and sinfulness requires physical life and a soul to exist.
Pelosi isn’t the only Catholic with a habit of self-deception or flat-out dishonest on this topic; Joe Biden also falls into this category. Douglas Kmiec shifted his support from Mitt Romney to Barack Obama, and as John McCormack points out at the Weekly Standard, he did so by claiming abortion to be one of many issues that Catholics must consider as part of their faith when voting. I addressed that thinking in an earlier post, but I’ll recap it by noting that the Church urges people to address “sinful” inequalities but does not demand any particular strategy for that purpose. It does, however, make abortion — even formal facilitation of abortion — an instantly excommunicating act.
Membership in the Catholic Church is voluntary. If people do not want to follow its doctrines, they should find another faith community that reflects their values — and at the least, they should learn what the Church teaches on abortion and life before mischaracterizing it on national television. Pelosi is either a fool or a liar, or perhaps both.
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maybe she should write a book about it.
ctmom on August 24, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Jason Mattera, undercover agent, leaves us aghast. Just how stupid are so many people in Denver, particularly democrats? So it is now official; the progressive Marxists are the DNC elitists leading the democrat ignorant masses who have yet to study history.
maverick muse on August 24, 2008 at 3:39 PM
I think you’d have to live in a cave not to have heard or participated in a debate on abortion: when life begins, viability, the mother’s health, etc. Those you can deal with, and the participants, no matter how wrong-headed usually bring some sort of sincerity to the table.
That transcript, though, is nothing other than a revelation of “raw evil” — it’s a total disregard for life — the most helpless of life, left to die in a utility closet for the sake of whoever’s offering the most money or future political support for his vote.
Nichevo on August 24, 2008 at 3:39 PM
With regard to legality, didn’t English common law make a distinction between pre-quickening and post-quicking abortions up until 1861?
dedalus on August 24, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Yup, he is more worried about “burden” ie “healthcare costs” than morality.
Barry doesn’t ever take many stands on things that could come back to haunt him….that means he knows this routine won’t.
To me that seals my hate of the DNC he knows there is NO political blowback in his party for dustbin babies.
sven10077 on August 24, 2008 at 3:43 PM
I was watching the “Journal Report” with Paul Gigot this weekend and they reported that “rare” was removed from this year’s DNC platform. I found this link here that reports the same thing. Marc Ambinder from The Atlantic says it is Obama’s platform.
So if the DNC and/or Obama no longer believe abortion should be rare then where does that leave us? Apparently he CAN take a position and feel it isn’t above his pay grade.
Terri on August 24, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Ed: I think your last statement was the correct one. She is a fool and a liar!
I also am upset that she stated the Republicans are against birth control. Does she really think we are all as dumb as she is? Boy that’s the first time I’ve ever heard that. And she has the authority to keep votes out of the house! Why don’t the “blue dogs” blow their stack? I have one in my state and I’ve just written him.
How about the pittance she has invested in natural gas? At least she thinks $50,000 to $100,000 is a pittance. Glad old tom called her on it.
Bambi on August 24, 2008 at 3:44 PM
That woman is a moron. Why would anyone interview her?
iam7545 on August 24, 2008 at 3:45 PM
I would be all for abortion if they’d removed the ovaries simultaneously..
TheSitRep on August 24, 2008 at 3:46 PM
P.S. What Catholic beliefs does Pelosi ascribe to?
emailnuevo on August 24, 2008 at 3:37 PM
The same ones that Illegal Alien mexicans ascribe to that support Roger Mahony running a Child Sex Ring out of the L.A. Archdiocese…
DfDeportation on August 24, 2008 at 3:47 PM
test
inviolet on August 24, 2008 at 3:51 PM
Madam Speaker sez in the middle of this screed:
1. THe Church’s position has been the same since 33 AD: The person is to be respected from the moment life begins. Science gave different answers at different points in history (which is why St. Thomas Aquinas said it begins at 40 days for boys and 80 days for girls or some such: because that’s what science believed at the time) but when life begins, it should be respected has been a constant. This is also why the “quickening” mentioned above in the thread was a factor in law - we didn’t know as much science as we do now.
But by all means, let’s use a guy from the 4th/5th century to tell us what we know now about fertilization.
2. “Three months from…” WHAT, Madam Stupid? From the beginning, that’s what. Life begins at the beginning.
inviolet on August 24, 2008 at 3:51 PM
Because that moron is one of the most important people in our Federal government. Which just proves she’s right about the end of civilization.
Quisp on August 24, 2008 at 3:51 PM
So our current Speaker of the House advocates for government-subsidized irresponsible and immoral behavior, then claims that Christian doctrine isn’t against said behavior? Can it get much worse than that?
Anyone who says this is a Christian nation must not be breathing pure air.
Send_Me on August 24, 2008 at 3:52 PM
I, too, am astouonded at pro-abortion politicians who claim to be practicing Catholics.
They must not have read any Catholic literature or newsletters or listened to a homily for the last 35 years, because the Church’s strident opposition to abortion is an omnipresent fact of Catholic life.
Legalized abortion is a bellweather issue with the Catholic Church.
So, when I see Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Joe Biden, Dick Durbin and the rest of the pro-abortion pols masquerade as practicing Catholics, I get disgusted.
Who are they trying to fool?
They work to perpetuate the genocide of American children which started 35 years ago. They have been quite successful in doing so, because there are now several generations of aborted children.
Be a Catholic or be pro-abortion, but don’t pretend to be both.
Like Mark Twain said, you can’t pray a lie.
molonlabe28 on August 24, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Isnt she supposed to be on vacation somewhere
malkinmania on August 24, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Put her on The Rack!!! That wouldn’t shed any blood would it? The Church would approve of that?
DfDeportation on August 24, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Isnt she supposed to be on vacation somewhere
malkinmania on August 24, 2008 at 3:57 PM
She’s saving the planet! Boy, All those gas-guzzling SUV’s and private jets must be doing wonders in the fight against Global Warming????
DfDeportation on August 24, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Our priest in yesterday’s homily quoted a bishop (wish I could remember who) who was asked if it was ever OK for a Catholic to vote for a pro-abortion candidate. He reportedly said, “Yes, in only one instance: if you can face the millions of aborted children on the Judgement Day and explain to them why you voted for those who worked to destroy them.”
Rosmerta on August 24, 2008 at 4:03 PM
Be a Catholic or be pro-abortion, but don’t pretend to be both.
Like Mark Twain said, you can’t pray a lie.
molonlabe28 on August 24, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Don’t forget priest pedophilia…
DfDeportation on August 24, 2008 at 4:04 PM
By supporting a woman’s right to choose. And the child’s right to life?
Who speaks for the unborn by her logic and belief in the Catholic faith?
For that matter any faith.
Kini on August 24, 2008 at 4:04 PM
Saving the planet = flying all around to hype pathetic book + killing future carbon foot prints.
All hail Queen Pelosi!!
jukin on August 24, 2008 at 4:05 PM
Look at it this way … Marxists, Fascists, Communists and Democrats all lie. They depend on an ignorant society, mostly provided by government schools, to exist. Logic and reason are their mortal enemy.
tarpon on August 24, 2008 at 4:06 PM
By supporting abortion, she’s reducing the carbon footprint of every infant soon to be driving a SUV.
Kini on August 24, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Why does anyone think Pelosi believes in anything but her own power?
She is a “Catholic” the way Obama is “articulate”.
In MSM meme only.
profitsbeard on August 24, 2008 at 4:07 PM
She lied about Augustine as well:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/earlychurchfathers/augustine.html
pedestrian on August 24, 2008 at 4:08 PM
I just can’t watch her anymore…i’m afraid what i feel for her might be something akin to how BDS’ers feel when watching our President speak.
Besides, its annoying to watch her talk, her dentures always seem to be slipping. Maybe she reaizes the same thing, and that’s why her eyes keep getting bigger and bigger.
surrounded on August 24, 2008 at 4:08 PM
Someone should ask Nancy when was the last time she accepted communion and went to confession.
Kini on August 24, 2008 at 4:09 PM
Kini on August 24, 2008 at 4:09 PM
When the Pope celebrated Mass, wasn’t it?
Quisp on August 24, 2008 at 4:12 PM
Ahh Nancy….
Your black, sellout soul is showing.
Trying to play the Catholic card while still sitting in the bloodied laps of the abortion crowd is stretching tighter than your lips after your last Botox injection.
The blowback will not be pretty.
Black Adam on August 24, 2008 at 4:12 PM
*sigh*
Although I certainly do NOT belittle the fact that a few priests committed grave sins…there are far more pedo’s amongst the general population.
JetBoy on August 24, 2008 at 4:15 PM
You know, I googled it to see what would return.
This website, view with caution, I found interesting.
Kini on August 24, 2008 at 4:19 PM
The question was not when does life begin. It was, “When does a baby get human rights.” Do they suffer from the same warped thinking (rhetorical) or are they trying to rewrite history so Obama doesn’t seem clueless (also rhetorical).
Also to the life thing (and using evolutionary ’science’ against them) Does not science say that life began on earth when amino acid molecules in the primordial soup linked up?
If life doesn’t begin in a human because it is only one cell, than how do they explain protozoa, amoeba, etc?
- The Cat
MirCat on August 24, 2008 at 4:23 PM
Moloch.
Maquis on August 24, 2008 at 4:26 PM
For all the entitlements and rights that democrats believe all should have, you’d think the least of those who could defend for themselves would be a champion cause.
Out of sight, out of mind…. for that matter very much out of mind.
Kini on August 24, 2008 at 4:28 PM
If the Morlocks are ProLife, what does that say about democrats?
Kini on August 24, 2008 at 4:32 PM
They love to dance in the sun, look pretty, and go great with gravy.
- The Cat
MirCat on August 24, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Attempting to define Pelosi’s position on abortion is a hopeless task. She’s a typical politician . . . she stands for everything and nothing. She’s and absolute amoral being and simply cannot tell the difference between the truth and a lie. Unfortunately, we’re stuck with these slugs until the people come out of their comas, decide they’ve had enough and send every one of the packing.
rplat on August 24, 2008 at 4:34 PM
That’s so funny, it’s mean.
(or is it so mean that it’s funny?)
Good one.
omnipotent on August 24, 2008 at 4:37 PM
Pelosi is the poster jackass for the stupid/evil, morally and intellectually bankrupt Democrat Party.
Worst - Speaker - Ever.
NoDonkey on August 24, 2008 at 4:41 PM
Good stuff Ed. Our American Bishops need to get tough with the likes of Pelosi, Kennedy et al.
Zorro on August 24, 2008 at 4:45 PM
excommunication should mean something and be used.
sven10077 on August 24, 2008 at 4:47 PM
When every single pregnancy ends with a live birth, then conservatives will be able to say that life begins at conception.
If religious people define medical intervention to prevent still births as a good thing, then they have removed God’s will from the equation already.
You cannot have it both ways.
Jaynie59 on August 24, 2008 at 4:55 PM
Pelosi is wrong about most things. With regard to St. Augustine there is some substance to her point. Your quote points out that Augustine believed abortion at any point to be sinful, but because it made the sexual act impure in the eyes of God.
However, he didn’t believe that abortion was murder from the time of conception. At one point, in reference to Exodus 21 he wrote (roughly): “the law does not provide that the act pertains to homocide, because still there cannot be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation, if it is in the flesh not yet formed and thus not yet endowed with senses.”
Augustine may have been wrong (or underinformed). The current Vatican thinks so, but Pelosi wasn’t completely off-base in referring to Augustine or Aquinas.
dedalus on August 24, 2008 at 4:56 PM
Quite the contrary, God would not have given man the ability of forethought and reason except to be used. His teachings on life, protection of the innocent and such mean that man has a duty to protect the infirim, unborn and such. What YOU are typing taken to its logical conclusion means medical science goes *poof*. If God has deemed an unborn soul to be needing to go home prior to birth there is nothing that man can do.
God gave man the ability to discover scientific reasoning to do good on this earth not harm.
God loves, man kills.
sven10077 on August 24, 2008 at 4:59 PM
Uncle Teddy is going to have a completely different view of abortion when he crosses over.
Mojave Mark on August 24, 2008 at 4:59 PM
quite the contrary, I am certain that had they had the technology we have now and seen the responsiveness to stimuli that can be seen in sonograms Pelosi would at a minimum have to back restrictions getting progressively harsher after the first trimester to refer to herself as a Catholic.
Dustbin babies would be rightly called murder.
sven10077 on August 24, 2008 at 5:01 PM
Jaynie59, you need to engage your brain before you run your big dumb mouth.
I have had a miscarriage and it was devastating and heartbreaking. The tiny baby that I lost had a heartbeat and I had heard it on the monitor before I started bleeding. When the nurse ran the monitor over my stomach a few days later and there was no longer any heartbeat, I burst into sobs because I knew I had lost my baby.
Don’t you DARE say this wasn’t a life, that this wasn’t a baby, and that she wasn’t my beautiful little girl.
I’m telling you, people start typing and forget there are real people out there reading what they say. Real people with real hearts. And heartbeats.
bonnie_ on August 24, 2008 at 5:03 PM
The same kind of thinking from the same kind of people who think she is a Senator.
Wade on August 24, 2008 at 5:04 PM
So the Shepard shouldn’t help his sheep out of a ditch? I think there was something written about that somewhere . .
- The Cat
MirCat on August 24, 2008 at 5:04 PM
Heh. Have you read the sequel by Stephen Baxter? The Time Ships. Pretty good book.
With new! updated physics.
misterpeasea on August 24, 2008 at 5:05 PM
Bonnie, I favor that name it was my grandmother’s, you have my deepest empathy. We have lost several pregnancies to miscarriage and while I can never know sadly the joy of carrying a life within me I do know the devestation and loss of having an expected addition to one’s family leave too early. The new clothes, the banter on what the room will be, the analysis of how to do your next child differently and with more wisdom than the first…these things are examples of the most beautiful aspects of we the human animal.
To have them rendered moot by fate is a grievous woumd, but I also believe we are not taked with more grief than we can bear. Your child is in heaven and one day God willing you and by extension my wife and I will get to see the smiles in their eyes as they play in the greener pastures of the Lord’s garden. It is with the deepest sincerity I extend to you my sorrow at your loss.
sven
sven10077 on August 24, 2008 at 5:09 PM
Then what would you think about drilling a hole in a babys head as it comes out the womb and suck out the babys brain? I am sure you have no problems with this, do you Jaynie?
Wade on August 24, 2008 at 5:11 PM
When you are as rich as Nancy, what does it matter what the little people think?
benrand on August 24, 2008 at 5:13 PM
Peolosi is from that ‘branch’ of the Church known as “California Catholics”. As long as what the Church teaches conforms to their ‘multi-cultural and diverse beliefs’, they consider themselves “Catholic”. If the Church’s beliefs and teachings collide with their views, then those beliefs and teachings are considered “optional”. It’s all part of the laid-back, non-confrontational and politically correct Caleefornia lifestyle.
GarandFan on August 24, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Nice documentation of Catholic Teaching! I have a lot of friends I need to forward this to.
And is it wrong of me to say, “Let the excommunications begin!”?
I try to say it in a spirit of charity, but she doesn’t make it easy. Still, it would be in her best interest, but more importantly the best interest of all those horribly confused (scandalized) Catholics who aren’t nearly as well Catechised as Ed.
What new authority does Archbishop Burke have in his new position as head of the Church’s court?
OT: How do you get line breaks? I’ve tried everything I know, which admittedly isn’t much.
pannw on August 24, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Please, think before you post. Your first paragraph taken to its logical conclusion means that if I kill a three year old child (or someone our age, any age adult) on purpose, then no one can say when his or her life began, is that right?
And your second paragraph taken to its logical conclusion means that if I see a three year old child (or you) start to fall off a cliff and don’t move so much as an outstretched arm to save him (or you), that’s OK because that was God’s will, do I understand you correctly?
There are LOTS of reasons for stillbirth or miscarriage, many preventable. I know you’re more intelligent than this post made you sound.
inviolet on August 24, 2008 at 5:14 PM
Yes, now I’m embarrassed. The line breaks didn’t show in the preview.
pannw on August 24, 2008 at 5:15 PM
…not to mention more compassionate. Bonnie, am sorry for your loss.
inviolet on August 24, 2008 at 5:16 PM
Not yet. Are there Kricket Robots in it?
- The Cat
MirCat on August 24, 2008 at 5:22 PM
I think you need to word this differently. :)
Guardian on August 24, 2008 at 5:22 PM
Remember this?
Quisp on August 24, 2008 at 5:23 PM
So Nancy studied a long time on this topic, and ended up with a more obviously deceitful and evil answer than Obama.
Study of the early church fathers shows a range of opinions on several topics, but on protecting unborn life the range of historical opinions does not match what Pelosi says. She seems to think that most people are stupid (at least the ones that she can persuade).
On this last point (the short term politics of democrat-evil-stupidity) she may be correct.
Right_of_Attila on August 24, 2008 at 5:29 PM
That has got to be one of the most idiotic things that I have ever read..
I so want to Channel Joe Biden and boast abour my IQ and denigrate yours. >:D
Chakra Hammer on August 24, 2008 at 5:30 PM
If seeing a sonogram of a formed fetus that had the appearance of a small infant were the criteria, then you’d have trouble with protecting something that appeared to be more like a cell than a person. That “sonogram criteria” though is probably not too far from what Augustine and Aquinas were getting at.
You are right that Pelosi is hypocrital, and she is trying to justify her support for abortion through the 3rd trimester by citing writers who don’t agree with her.
dedalus on August 24, 2008 at 5:30 PM
I agree, I read the first persons post and was like WTF..
Chakra Hammer on August 24, 2008 at 5:33 PM
14% approval rating is way too generous for this woman.
Chuck Schick on August 24, 2008 at 5:36 PM
She slipped and said child instead of protoplasmic blob.
Akzed on August 24, 2008 at 5:37 PM
She’s got man hands!!!
equanimous on August 24, 2008 at 5:37 PM
I find it fascinating that the Catholic Church has an ‘excommunication’. It’s as though while Christ and Christ alone can save you, this man made organization can undo what Christ did.
I always thought the concept of ‘excommunication’ made Catholicism into more of a club than an actual religious doctrine with Christ at the center. Why does the Catholic Church decide what will and will not keep people from being saved? No sin is any better or worse than any other. Believing in abortion is bad, but it’s certainly no worse than actually killing someone. . . or even lusting after gorgeous women that make themselves lust-worthy on purpose.
I appreciate what the Catholic Church has done to spread the Gospel across the world. But I really think that a lot of the Catholic concepts (such as ‘excommunication’) are extra-Biblical. And I point to John 3:17. . . where it says He came to the world NOT TO CONDEMN (which is what turns me off of organized religion - especially Catholicism). Many religions are more concerned with condemning than saving. Christ was only concerned with saving and forgiving.
Having said that, if I BELIEVED that being ‘excommunicated’ meant damning to hell. . . I’d probably toe the party line from the Catholics as well. I just don’t give an earthly organization that power over my religious belief in God from the Bible and my savior in Jesus.
No, I can’t believe that abortion is legal in a civilized society. I can’t believe that the death penalty is either (both against Catholic doctrine). But at one point, crucifixion was legal. . . just ask Jesus. People are barbaric by nature.
ThackerAgency on August 24, 2008 at 5:37 PM
Pro-Choice “Catholics” don’t know the first ****ing thing about Catholicism?
Sadly, Ed, this isn’t news.
If you want to be a Democrat these days, you CANNOT be a practicing Catholic. You must be either so willing to deceive yourself or so horribly ignorant of your faith that you will believe anything anyone tells you.
Sorry, San Fran Nan. Supporting “Social Justice (read: Government Oppression)” is not a get out of aiding and abetting mortal sin free card.
BKennedy on August 24, 2008 at 5:39 PM
And i thought Obama was dumb.And this person is the speaker of the U.S. house? God help us.
thmcbb on August 24, 2008 at 5:39 PM
Dear ThackerAgency:
Instead of continuing to embarrass yourself with your absolute ignorance of Catholicism nearly on the level of Pelosi, please try cracking open the Catechism.
Excommunication is not something the Church does to you, it is something you do to yourself. You are confusing the Church’s notice of an excommunication with the conference of it. If you are staunchly pro-abortion, then you have already by your actions excommunicated yourself from Christ. When the Church sends you the letter, it is simply reminding you what you have done and that your soul is in grave danger.
Only you can excommunicate yourself. The Church is there to remind you that your soul can still be saved and you can repent.
Further, man did not make the Catholic Church, Christ did. Christ made Peter the first Pope, and through apostolic succession the priesthood is an extension of that holy conference.
Btw. is yours the church that believes Leviticus was a crock and homosexuality is not an abomination (and should actually be encouraged in the priesthood no less), the church that believes Christ wasn’t actually serious when he said “eat my flesh and drink my blood, for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink,” or the church of the Divine Charlatan Mike Huckabee and whatever crazy beliefs he has?
I can never keep track of all the demoninations of men interpreting the New Word of God, you see. They keep on splitting and splittling and splitting based on the decisions of their morally infallible Minister Councils.
BKennedy on August 24, 2008 at 5:49 PM
All due respect, this is far from the first time you’ve completely misrepresented Catholic teaching.
Excommunication does NOT, NOT, I repeat NOT, mean a declaration that you are not saved. It means you are excluded from the sacraments, as a statement of how serious the Church believes your departure from what God’s will is for a Christian is and an urging you to examine your own conscience (which properly formed, is ALWAYS primary for a person’s moral decisions.
No one is “un-saving” anyone. Don’t mind your disagreeing with Church teaching but, please, find out what Church teaching actually IS before you start attacking it. Thanks.
inviolet on August 24, 2008 at 5:55 PM
Didn’t see your post before I posted. Better explanation than mine - thanks.
inviolet on August 24, 2008 at 5:56 PM
ThackerAgency,
I’m no theologian and I don’t really want to get into a debate on this, mainly because I’m not as well versed as I should be, and as a cradle Catholic, I wasn’t raised to be good at quoting Scripture and all that, but Jesus specifically gives the ability and responsibility in Matthew 16:18-19 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Christ was about forgiving, but one has to repent and ask for it and Excommunication is a sort of last chance/line drawn in the sand sort of thing. It is not to punish, but to impress upon the sinner how grave their error is and that they must repent or they will not only be outside of the Church, but risk condemning themselves to Hell. That’s the way I’ve always understood it, anyway.
pannw on August 24, 2008 at 5:56 PM
Yes, people better versed and faster than me.
pannw on August 24, 2008 at 5:59 PM
Hey Thankser, sneak up from behind and squeeze yer pastor’s wife’s boobs with alacrity and see if you don’t get excommunicated.
Akzed on August 24, 2008 at 6:02 PM
Unless Pelosi herself has had an abortion, I don’t see how this has any bearing on her standing in the Catholic church. Why is it that, for this issue and only this issue, a good Catholic is not only expected to follow church doctrine, but to politically enforce church doctrine on non-Catholics? Do you also have to advocate anti-sodomy laws, or anti-adultery laws, or anti-idolatry laws to be considered a good Catholic?
RightOFLeft on August 24, 2008 at 6:03 PM
Pelosi is no more “Catholic” than Osama bin Laden is.
Pelosi = Fr. Pfleger the Phelm
I am a proud, practicing Roman Catholic and am sick and tired of politicians exploit my faith for their political gain (Kennedys et al) then do not practice it.
Being pro-choice/abortion is in direct opposition of being a Catholic.
Branch Rickey on August 24, 2008 at 6:03 PM
Hey Thacker, what’s this all about?
Mathew 18:15-20
“If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. “Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”
Akzed on August 24, 2008 at 6:05 PM
To advocate and/or facilitate evil is to participate in it.
Akzed on August 24, 2008 at 6:06 PM
Yes.
Any Catholic’s public policy should be directed towards decreasing or eliminating any program, initiative, or law that would lead someone to mortal sin by design. A concrete example would be co-pays for abortion, codifying gay marriage, or building government funded statues marble statues of Christ on public property (because the object itself may supplant someone from actual worship, no matter how good the intent).
The reason abortion gets so much play is because a) no-one really cares about homosexuals, not even Democrats and b) They are a useful 2% constituency to have on election day, and usually have loads of donor money. But the rich gays don’t really care about gay marriage or care for their poorer cousins beyond using them in a pool boy capacity, and the poor gays don’t have enough influence.
Fact is, if you aid and abet someone into getting an abortion you are leading them purposefully into mortal sin. Therefore, you suffer the same stain as they did. If they got an abortion and you tried your best to stop them, it would be different.
As far as “enforcing your beliefs on others,” why should I have to put up with all the Marxist BS Obama tries to enforce on me, or put up with all of McCain’s amnesty BS? The only difference is that ideas inspired by Catholicism tend to work, while Marxism and Amnesty are abject failures. Why should I not be able to enforce my beliefs just because they are related to my religion while the secular mental midgets can go about proposing blanket amnesty and redistribution of wealth stemming from their own ignorance of history?
BKennedy on August 24, 2008 at 6:17 PM
Wha-a-a-a-t????
What
A
Liar!
jgapinoy on August 24, 2008 at 6:19 PM
I’m an agnostic (I guess) and I find it impossible to define abortion as anything but cold-blooded murder. Live sperm meets live ovum and live person results, instantly. Where’s the gray area in that?
Ok Pelosi, you dehumanized piece of trash - At what point was this conceived person not alive, and therefore not entitled to our constitutionally protected rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
IMHO, Pro-abortionists will pay a heavy price for their advocacy of murder, whether from karmic retribution, or burning in hell, or whatever really happens next. It will be very bad for them, probably worse than death.
Fishoutofwater on August 24, 2008 at 6:22 PM
This Vatican, and this Catholic, would LOVE to get rid of this “dead wood” from the faith. It would make the Catholic Church spiritually stronger, imAo.
Branch Rickey on August 24, 2008 at 6:26 PM
Fitting, since abortion is a death worse than fate.
Akzed on August 24, 2008 at 6:35 PM
Obamarxist referred to these words of the Lord Jesus Christ as recorded by Matthew:
“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
Why doesn’t he think this passage applies to unborn babies, whose human rights he has voted against every opportunity he has gotten?
He calls himself a Christian?
jgapinoy on August 24, 2008 at 6:36 PM
More to the point, I wonder how many Christians are in ThackerAgency’s denomination.
I doubt it is measured in 4 digits, let alone the 8 or 9 Catholics are measured in.
Moreover, a loss of all “Pro-Choice Catholics” would only hit churches in America hard. In Western Europe, they would be empty (which in raw numbers isn’t a huge change).
Wherever 2 or more are gathered in His name there will be a Church. Even if you were to rid the world of 99 out of 100 Catholics, there would still be a Catholic Church.
BKennedy on August 24, 2008 at 6:37 PM
Asked and answered. Thanks for being honest. Your church, your rules. Even if those rules are dangerous to a free society. Fortunately we interpret the first amendment as a “wall of separation,” or I’d start getting worried.
I’m honestly not sure about what Catholic doctrine considers mortal sin. Does this include the seven deadly sins? Gluttony, lust, wrath, etc…? I’m surprised to find out that banning trans-fat, or putting cap-and-trade penalties on energy consumption, is actually just good Catholic practice.
(If you’re only objecting to public funding of abortion, then we can agree on that, at least. I don’t think that’s what you meant, though.)
I disagree with Obama’s left-wing politics and McCain’s misguided immigration policy, too, but I don’t have to resort to mystical edicts to demonstrate how both are materially opposed to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Come to think of it, there are also secular arguments against legalized abortion. The anti-abortion movement might actually get somewhere if they used those arguments occasionally.
RightOFLeft on August 24, 2008 at 6:41 PM
Conservatives are not against contraception. That is absurd. No protestant church is against contraception. What they are against is the distribution of contraceptives to High School kids in programs that actually seem to encourage sex, particularly homosex.
pat on August 24, 2008 at 6:44 PM
You know it, EM.
“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5
Contrary to the “recapitulation theory” proposed by evolutionists and promoted by abortionists, Jeremiah was known by God before he was even conceived in the womb, illustrating the truth that the human embryo is fully human from the very moment of conception.
apacalyps on August 24, 2008 at 6:48 PM
The programs particularly encourage gay sex? It’s been years since I was in high school, but that seems odd.
dedalus on August 24, 2008 at 6:51 PM
Fixed!
Rovin on August 24, 2008 at 6:57 PM
The new sex-ed program is pretty shocking. They put on some Depeche Mode CDs and make the kids watch episodes of Will and Grace, then they send everyone home with a bunch of Day-Glo condoms rolled up in a Judy Garland poster.
RightOFLeft on August 24, 2008 at 6:59 PM
Doesn’t it continue along the lines of: “and I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Isn’t there a sense that God singled out this one individual or are we do read it universally that God has appointed everyone to a role before birth? If that is the case, some souls were appointed to roles that never got more than a few hours beyond conception.
dedalus on August 24, 2008 at 7:00 PM
Some RCC officials are “finding their voices” on this issue.
The prefect of the Apostolic Signature, Archbishop Raymond Burke, said this week that Catholics, especially politicians who publically defend abortion, should not receive Communion, and that ministers of Communion should be responsibly charitable in denying it to them if they ask for it, “until they have reformed their lives.”
In an interview with the magazine, Radici Christiane, Archbishop Burke pointed out that there is often a lack of reverence at Mass when receiving Communion. “Receiving the Body and Blood of Christ unworthily is a sacrilege,” he warned. “If it is done deliberately in mortal sin it is a sacrilege.”
……..“We must avoid giving people the impression that one can be in a state of mortal sin and receive the Eucharist,” the archbishop continued. “Secondly, there could be another form of scandal, consisting of leading people to think that the public act that this person is doing, which until now everyone believed was a serious sin, is really not that serious - if the Church allows him or her to receive Communion.”
“If we have a public figure who is openly and deliberately upholding abortion rights and receiving the Eucharist, what will the average person think? He or she could come to believe that it up to a certain point it is okay to do away with an innocent life in the mother’s womb,” he warned.
Archbishop Burke also noted that when a bishop or a Church leader prevents an abortion supporter from receiving Communion, “it is not with the intention of interfering in public life but rather in the spiritual state of the politician or public official who, if Catholic, should follow the divine law in the public sphere as well.”
“Therefore, it is simply ridiculous and wrong to try to silence a pastor, accusing him of interfering in politics so that he cannot do good to the soul of a member of his flock,” he stated.
Akzed on August 24, 2008 at 7:01 PM
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