Well, I have a different opinion, but it’s just me…

I’ll let those who read these exchanges decide who’s pathetic.

sulla on August 24, 2008 at 7:47 PM

Joseph Smith said, “I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet … When they can get rid of me, THE DEVIL WILL ALSO GO.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409) — Joseph Smith: founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You know it’s a terrible shame a nice fellow like yourself Mr. Sulu is left having to defend this lying cheating sod. I actually think you’re a nice guy. It is beyond me how you’ve got caught up in this mess. The test for Christian faith and practice is always that of complete fidelity to Scripture and only Scripture.

“To the law and to the testimony: if they speak NOT ACCORDING TO THIS WORD, it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM.” Isaiah 8:20

Joseph Smith teachings when lined up with the Bible fails the test in Isaiah 8:20 miserably. It’s not even debatable. I can only hope and pray you’ll see that someday Mr. Sulu. I don’t care about winning an argument. I care about where you’ll spend eternity. Have a good night. No hard feelings.

Such anger over a guy who died almost 200 years ago.

sulla on August 24, 2008 at 5:00 PM

It’s not anger as in hate. It’s anger as in heart wrenching frustration because that lying cheating Smith with his magic stone and them golden plates has led and continues to lead thousands of people into hell for their eternal lives:

“And in hell he (a man) lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” Luke 16:23-24

In fact, hell is so horrible you’ll beg God to send someone back so they won’t have to come to this horrible place.

“Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him (Lazarus) to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” Luke 16:27-31

Seriously – such rage is not healthy.

Don’t play mind games with me Sulu. It’s rather pathetic.

Such anger over a guy who died almost 200 years ago.

Do you get this pissed at Napoleon?

Seriously – such rage is not healthy.

That you got such a rage-on over my comments sympathizing with your perspective is not unexpected, but no less sad.

Bambi et al., apacalypse is still pushing for Huckabee; do you really think you’re going to convince him to change his mind about the nature of God? :)

sulla on August 23, 2008 at 11:46 PM

Such a shame how some of you treated this man. Mike is such a great American, a wonderful speaker. As President he could have motivated the nation just like Reagan did and turned things around. He feared God. Even Duncan Hunter endorsed him and we all know DH is a true conservative! You were wrong. You should have backed Huckabee, a candidate who shared your values more fully than any other candidate in a generation. you were just plain wrong.

It takes faith to believe that Joseph Smith is who he said he is, that he met who he claims he met, that the Book of Mormon is a translation of “the stick of Ephraim” (Ezek 37) and not a 19th-century hoax.

You’re telling me! You need so much faith it aint even funny. It’s more likely evolution is true and you evolved from a rock than Joey Smith was a prophet of God. And evolution isn’t even a mathematical probability. I like you Mr. Sulu. No joke. I really do. You’re calm. Level headed. You’re alright in my book, but man, you got taken by this one. All throughout Scripture, the Lord unequivecally condemns consultations with spirit mediums, fortunetellers, astrologoers, witches, and all other occult sources of SUPPOSED knowledge and guidance:

“If there arise among you a prophet (Joseph Smith), or a dreamer of dreams (Joseph Smith), and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, LET US GO AFTER OTHER GODS, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt NOT hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.” Deuteronomy 13:1-3

Dude. This warning was written what, 3-4 thousands years before Joseph Smith was even born. You’re not stupid. You can read it like I can. The Bible warned us well in advance to watch out for con men like Smith. This is a man with a magic seer stone and a hat he put his face into to write the sequel to the Bible. Are you kidding me??!!!!! You better wake up. Re-read Deuteronomy 13:1-3 . You are being tested by the LORD to see if you love Him, and so far you’re failing big time. There is no shame admitting you’ve made a mistake. I’ve made tons of mistakes in my life. Just made one again today. Fix yours before it’s too late.

I guess what I am wanting to understand is — what do we really know about his (apacalyps’) faith? He’s never told us.

WastelandMan on August 23, 2008 at 10:09 PM

Hi WastelandMan. I hope you are doing well. Yes, I’ve explained this before, but for you I’ll do it again. What kind of Christian am I? Well, I don’t really believe in denominations. I liken denomination to divide. That said, I’m not particularily against denominations, it’s just that at the time of Christ there were no denominations. People were just followers of Christ. The word Christian is first mentioned in the Bible in the Book of Acts:

“And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch (Syria).” Acts 11:26

These were called Christian. So I am just a Christian.

However, if you want the church denomination that best describes my beliefs, then I could be best describes as an Independent, Fundamental, Tempermental, right-wing, radical, Baptist. The name “independent” means that the church patterns itself after the New Testament example and stands alone under the authority of the Bible and not apart of a national organization that would exercise authority over the local church.

What Is An Independent Fundamental Baptist?

I don’t attend this particular church, but they have a good general Statement of Faith for an Independent, Fundamental, Baptist Church that I agree with.

In summary, I prefer an Independent, Fundamental, Baptist Church that uses the King James Bible only.

Hope that helps.

apacalypse is still pushing for Huckabee; do you really think you’re going to convince him to change his mind about the nature of God? :)

Declare victory and move on, and let him do the same. He and we speak different religious dialects (many of our common terms do not have common definitions).

We Mormons have scripture beyond the Bible which we believe helps us better understand the Bible, which is the word of God, but it can be and often has been misinterpreted in places, and over the centuries that has resulted in a proliferation of Christian, Bible-based churches. That the Book of Mormon was written under God’s direction with the specific intent of testifying to the truth of the Bible, and expounding on its themes.

What is the Book of Mormon? A recurring commentary on an edition of the Old Testament that predated the Babylonian captivity. Some history, but mostly Bible commentary and the testimonies of those who had faith in the Christ who SHOULD come, and the testimonies of those who had a knowledge of the Christ who DID come.

To those who don’t believe the Book of Mormon, or in any other non-Biblical scripture, the Mormon perspective on the Bible can be hard to understand. it’s easier to believe that Joseph Smith was a con-man who either made up or plagiarized the Book of Mormon, or a mix of both.

It takes faith to believe that Joseph Smith is who he said he is, that he met who he claims he met, that the Book of Mormon is a translation of “the stick of Ephraim” (Ezek 37) and not a 19th-century hoax.

And it takes a willingness to step back and find a way to agree on common definitions before we can hope to communicate effectively. Remember Ammon and Lamoni? Sometimes you have to start with ABC to ensure common linguistic ground rather than assume you’re all on the same page. Otherwise it’s just a lot of talking past each other.

The creation is proof of the Creator. For instance, when I look at a building, how do I know there was a builder? I can’t see him, hear him, touch him, or smell him. Of course, the building is proof that there was a builder. In fact, I couldn’t want better evidence that there was a builder than to have a building right in front of me. I don’t need “faith” to know there was a builder. All I need are eyes that can see and a brain that works. So how can I know God exists? Why, the creation shows me that there is a Creator.

Sounds familiar, apacalyps, and I mean that as a compliment.

Will ye deny again that there is a God, and also deny the Christ? For behold, I say unto you, I know there is a God, and also that Christ shall come.

And now what evidence have ye that there is no God, or that Christ cometh not? I say unto you that ye have none, save it be your word only.

But, behold, I have all things as a testimony that these things are true; and ye also have all things as a testimony unto you that they are true; and will ye deny them? Believest thou that these things are true?

…ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets[.] The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

Until then all apacalyps gets from me is…

(Major Eye Roll)

-Wasteland Man.

You have not taken me up on my offer, nor have you answered my questions about those who have never heard of Christ!

Bambi on August 23, 2008 at 9:02 PM

You need to read your Bible Mormon Bambi. We all have knowledge of God:

“For the invisible things of him (GOD) from the creation of the world are CLEARLY SEEN, being understood by the things THAT ARE MADE, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they (meaning people) are WITHOUT EXCUSE:” Romans 1:20

The creation is proof of the Creator. For instance, when I look at a building, how do I know there was a builder? I can’t see him, hear him, touch him, or smell him. Of course, the building is proof that there was a builder. In fact, I couldn’t want better evidence that there was a builder than to have a building right in front of me. I don’t need “faith” to know there was a builder. All I need are eyes that can see and a brain that works. So how can I know God exists? Why, the creation shows me that there is a Creator. God has planted in the heart of every man the knowledge that there is a righteous God. It’s true only those who have accepted Jesus Christ will go to heaven, but you forget that Jesus Christ is God. There may be people in some heathen pagan society that have asked for God’s forgiveness, and have no concept of what a Christian is. That’s why I don’t know if I wanna use the word, the definition … the term, “Christian” trying to explain this. The Bible says if you seek after God, God will see to him, that you find Him. There are those who don’t want God cause they’re afraid of some of the rules that go along with an authority, and that’s why in the 1800′s this philosophy — evolution — caught on.

Conservative Voice on August 23, 2008 at 7:15 PM

I come back from business in NYC and not surprising I find this here with the Huck/Evangelical crowd getting pensive and all up in a twist about the VP slot.

Too bad Apacalyps won’t be able to reconcile the fact there are THREE distinct and separate entities in Matt 3:16/17. They are all “one” in purpose…

We could go back at it again, but I learned my lesson with him that he neither listens (reads) or is interested in an intellectually honest debate about Scripture.

I would say stfu stuff apacalyps, but…

eaglesdontflock on August 23, 2008 at 7:06 PM

… but, you know I really do care for people and sometimes it’s better for them to hear the truth even if they don’t like it, as opposed to hearing a false sugar-coated gospel? Aww shucks, well now I’m blushing. You know, I can be wrong. You’re a nice guy afterall!!

Jesus Himself said, “I and my Father are one.” John 10:30
apacalyps on August 22, 2008 at 8:08 PM

Matthew 19:5
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall acleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Genesis 11:6
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

John 17:11
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Acts 4:32
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that bought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

Romans 12:5
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Hebrews 2:11
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

GALATIANS 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

How does that compare to John 10:30? The answer is simple. Two separate beings, but are one in mind, heart and spirit, figuratively speaking…much like a husband and wife are commanded to be one flesh, and we are commanded to be one with God.

Jesus Himself told us, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30).

Don’t a man and a wife become one? Or do Christians of your denomination consider that a physical connotation?

Is this thread over? Why no other posts?

Bambi on August 23, 2008 at 11:07 AM

Well, Vanceone realized he was being exposed as a heretic. He had to bail out. It was a sinking ship. What he said clearly contradicts Scripture. Here’s a little recap of the festivities. Vance said that Hindus and Buddists are going to heaven. Except just like the Hindus and the Buddists he missed the part in the Bible where God says “You shall have no other gods before me,” and “You shall not make for yourself an idol.” And he missed where Jesus says, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (John 3:3). Vance said that Hindus and Buddists will be judged on their works, meaning if they’re good enough God will let them into heaven, even though the Bible says we can NOT work our way to heaven by our good works, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT OF GOD” (Ephesians 2:8). Vance also says nowhere in the first 300 years of the Christian church, aside from the Gnostics (they are a cult), does anyone ever claim that Christ and God the Father are the exact same, even though Jesus Himself told us, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). So Vance is calling God a liar here. Oh yeah, and he blurts out other things like the Bible settles nothing, again this is calling God a liar because God promised to preserve His Word forever in the Scriptures. See Psalms 12:6-7. So there it is. Vance got up and said this before GOD and everbody!! All the while he claims he is a Christian — clarification — a Mormon Christian. I’m still shaking my head.

sulla on August 23, 2008 at 5:42 PM

I took it as you meant it. I like the infrequent discussions of policy we have here, vs the unending war of internal ideology between the Christian conservatives, the social conservatives and the libertarians. Not that it’s bad, it just gets old.

I’d like to see the forum separate into regional discussion groups to see how we would tackle problems in our own states and push for change from the bottom up. I wouldn’t begin to tackle nyc problems, and they would probably fail in Fairhope Alabama.

I think Romney understands how to build coalitions to solve problems. He has done it time and again. That is why I favor him. Two have two genuine leaders on our ticket and not just placeholders inspires me.

eaglesdontflock on August 23, 2008 at 4:18 PM

In the off chance that my earlier comment sounded less grateful than it should, I really do appreciate your insight on Romney’s plan. I feel more optimistic than I had.

I didn’t mean it in a “yeah yeah thanks for sharing” sort of way and hope it didn’t appear that way. If it did, my apologies.

eaglesdontflock on August 23, 2008 at 4:06 PM

thanks for the link, and for the comments.

Any system to cover the uninsured that manages those costs properly, and precludes the passing on of exorbitant hidden costs to the insured health consumer will help to level the increase in taxes that must be absorbed by the taxpaying public.