Mark Halperin: Two GOP sources say it’s Romney; Update: NYT says it’s Romney or Pawlenty
posted at 11:26 pm on August 21, 2008 by Allahpundit
So much for Pawlenty versus Lieberman. Halperin’s posts have been known to disappear inexplicably, so here’s the thumbnail for posterity just in case this one floats off into the ether before morning. Exit question: Fear the Reaper?
Update: You know who he could have picked who would have totally locked this election up for us?
Update: The Times says Ridge and Lieberman have at last been eliminated and the shortlist is down to Romney and Pawlenty — with David Petraeus being mentioned in a naked attempt by Team Maverick to steal a little buzz from Obama’s VP announcement tomorrow. New theory, then: Halperin’s sources are two pro-Romney partisans within the party who are trying to make life uncomfortable for McCain by putting Mitt’s name out there now and stirring up some excitement for him.
Blowback
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Wanting Mitt is one thing. Are there millions of US Mormons who are rooting for him? Out of six million domestic LDS, probably.
Worldwide, you’d be surprised how politically left most Mormons lean; They think Harry Reid is too conservative.
But are millions praying for McCain to die so Mitt can sit in the big chair? No way.
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 1:11 PM
I saw a video of the woman telling her testimony of the fear she lived in. Of course she really didn’t fear men because she trusted in God.
Glad to hear it.
Interesting that you see the comparison. You said it not me.
I am not lying. I say many nice things about Mormons. Your argument is not with me but with history and even recent history.
Avery family murders
I’ve been to Salt Lake. It’s a nice city and the people are very friendly. I’m sure the “formers” you mention have no idea about “Blood Atonement”.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 1:14 PM
Simply, wow. Are you accusing Mormons of actively and openly participating in murder for the sake of keeping members in their faith? I think you’ve mixed your religions. You’re referring to Islamofascist extremists. But if you have proof, you might want to go to the D.A. and get a few people arrest. As far as I know it’s still illegal, no matter what your reason save self defense, to kill another human being.
Thank you. Although I’m not Mormon, you said more or less what I wanted to say.
At this point, talking V.P. qualifications vis-a-vie someone’s religious faith is kind of trite, don’t you think? He’s not my freaking Pastor, nor is he trying to be. He for sure will have an equalizing effect of McCain’s maverickiness and is a far better choice then the one that’s been discussed lately ad nauseam in Liebermann.
Sultry Beauty on August 22, 2008 at 1:17 PM
Simple explanation: Your church’s doctrine has changed though some have branched off and still practice it. Why shouldn’t they? Their prophets taught it.
Who are you or the other ten million to say that a Mormon prophet of God was wrong?
Good to hear it.
My view of Mormons is based on historical fact and what their own leaders have or now teach. Their doctrine changes. But that’s not surprising since man sways like a reed in the wind while God himself is unchanging. I am glad that mainstream and majority of Mormons still do not practice it.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 1:23 PM
Well, I’m not surprised that Olaf was peddling his dark horrors of Mormons–that guy does want the extermination order back– but for those who might be a bit confused about what on earth “blood atonement” might be, I’ll try to explain it.
First of all, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle in the very first sherlock holmes book did a great deal to populize the “Mormons are murderers” slam that Olaf is so faithfully repeating here. He apologized for it later.
It’s real simple: Under Mormon doctrine, you have to repent of your sins. Repentance requires you to make restitution as best as you can. Thus, sins for which you can’t make restitution tend to be much worse. That’s why it’s much harder to repent (or get a new heart, turn to Jesus, etc) for something like rape and murder than simply shoplifting a pack of gum.
In other words, a simple “I’m sorry” is not good enough in most cases. I believe this is a difference with many Evangelicals, who either preach that you don’t need to repent at all (once saved always saved, so sin away!) or that all sins are equal so to repet of a sin is equal. I.e. murder is the same as a white lie. Not all evangelicals believe that (in fact, I don’t believe that most evangelicals really believe a white lie is the same as murder, but that’s what they keep quoting to me).
Mormons don’t. So, how do you make restitution for murder? You can’t bring back the dead. The best you can do is offer your own life as well, as part of a punishment. Since you, the murderer, cut short someone else’s life, it’s only fair to cut short your life as well. Only when you are willing to offer up your own life can you become eligible for the healing powers of Christ, and it’s only then you are eligible to receive forgiveness.
So “blood atonement” really is nothing more than being willing to offer up your own life as part of the repentance process. It doesn’t require spilling blood or anything. But it is always part of a state sponsored punishment process.
Ergo, let’s say I killed someone–murder, not an accident, etc. If I want to be forgiven for it, I would have to volunteer that I did it to the authorities, plead guilty, and be willing to go to the chair or the lethal injection–and if they did, not fight it. Only then do I have a hope of receiving forgiveness for murder.
All that stuff about “hunting down apostates” etc is total nonsense, and anyone who professes to fear that never understood Mormons in the first place. Or our doctrine.
I hope that helps explain it somewhat! Oh, and even though I’m well known as a Mitt supporter, I don’t pray for McCain to croak. That’s totally wrong.
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 1:25 PM
I’m mistaken, it’s shick trying to brand Mormons as as Death Cult, not Olaf. I apologize to Olaf.
Schick–you mention the Avery family. I’d never heard of them, but looking them up–that incident happened by someone who was executed, and who was NEVER a Mormon! Mormon being defined as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Note, too, that the killer was tossed out of the ministry of the church he did belong to, and started claiming to be his own prophet–much like Jim Jones. In fact, you can blame the Methodists for the Peoples Temple and Jonestown under your same analogy: for Jones was a Methodist before he started his cult.
I’m totally not surprised the one name you mention was not connected with mormons of any stripe when he murdered the Avery family. Plus, his reason wasn’t “blood atonement” either–it was flat out a human sacrifice, not a punshiment for leaving the sect.
You are completely wrong. Will you apologize for smearing my faith as murderers now?
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 1:34 PM
“The Lundgrens’ move to Kirtland, where they worked as volunteer guides at the Kirtland Temple and built a following of unhappy Reorganized Church members, which eventually became a cult.”
“There is also no understanding whatsoever of the church’s history and the various factions of Mormonism. He consistently, for example, uses the term “Mormon” in reference to the Reorganized Church in spite of that term’s clear identification with the Latter-day Saint movement based in Utah.”
“The Reorganized Latter Day Saints, is a “splinter” faction of Mormonism that stayed behind in the Mid West when the Mormons trekked to Utah with Brigham Young. The RLDS (as it’s called) is headquartered in Missouri. It’s prophet was a lineal descent of Joe Smith. The church is also notable because it rejected polygamy, one of the main doctrinal reasons it split from the larger church. Jeffrey Lundgren is the “prophet” at the heart of the Avery murders.”
Take your personal stuff elsewhere it doesn’t belong on a blog about politics.
Sultry Beauty on August 22, 2008 at 1:34 PM
Who are you to fixate on dead prophets when the fundamental doctrine of the LDS church is to follow the LIVING prophet? The preaching you’re talking about predated the civil war, for crying out loud.
I shared this thread with my wife, who joined the church in high school. She’d never heard of blood atonement. We don’t teach it today – according to that wikipedia article, the church has stated and restated its opposition to it – and we do not practice it.
By your logic, you’re a racist because America had legalized slavery and Jim Crow laws. That George W. Bush is a slaver, because George Washington owned slaves. That you are guilty of murder because in the 19th century the US army declared open season on Indians.
Do you REALLY want to go there?
Live in the NOW. Please.
And choose your news sources more carefully. Even the New York Times is more objective than that crap you’re peddling.
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 1:41 PM
Question for you. Did I reveal anything false? Please show me if I have. MMM was real. Recent Blood Atonement murders are real. You acknowledge the horror of MMM. You do not acknowledge Prophet Young’s involvment. Am I putting horns on him or are you just seeinig the horns that are present. Remember that I believe as a Christian that all men are bad. Put horns on me if it makes you feel better.
I neither fear or hate Mormons because I fear God.
I won’t question whether some hated mormons then. The question I pose is did the Mormons hate the caravan when they slaughtered them?
I don’t fear you or the majority of modern Mormons. You are still dealing with the effects of MMM because it effects your doctrinal beliefs of your group today.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 1:42 PM
Dude, give it a rest..I do not hate mormons nor did I ever say that I did. I love them even though they’re wrong :)
As for “walking the walk”…if you consider practicing polygamy and forced marriages to underage girls “walking the walk” then I would have to agree with you.
Besides there are plenty of good conservative mormons in politics…Harry Reid, Mitt(“I will do more to protect abortion than Ted Kennedy”)Romney etc. etc.
Do you not know how to read? Or are you just trying to slander me?
If you did read…you would see that it was other commentors that said that… I said nothing of the sort.
SaintOlaf on August 22, 2008 at 1:44 PM
Funny the people you pick and choose to respond to I think. But I’ll bite.
What don’t you give me the list of recent LDS (not RLDS which Mitt is not a member) of Blood Atonement. I’d really like to see this.
Sultry Beauty on August 22, 2008 at 1:45 PM
Don’t you dare compare us to muslims, or islamic terrorists!
I brought it up because that’s what you were hinting at!
We do not cut off heads, we do not honor kill our young women who marry outside of the religion, and we don’t kill those who leave our faith!!!!!!!!
How dare you!
Our last mayor was a former and was the worst. He still lives in Salt Lake, although he would be a better fit for San Fran. I know he was hoping for a job with hillary’s administration. So sad!
Bambi on August 22, 2008 at 1:45 PM
what=why
Sultry Beauty on August 22, 2008 at 1:45 PM
Shick: you know nothing except smears, don’t you? Do you watch September Dawn and think that was a public service, full of nothing but truth by highminded individuals?
Am I a murderer? I’m Mormon. Answer me right now–am I a murderer at heart? Let’s make this personal. You claim my faith preaches murder as a core doctrine. Let’s see you put your money where your mouth is–is each and every one of the 13 million current Mormons worldwide a murderer? That’s even more than fundamentalist Islamists!
Come on, lets hear it–you really believe that Romney is a murderer?
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 1:46 PM
I’m not accusing. I have shown that there are LDS factions that still practice this today. As far as reporting. The cases are on file. I provided one example the Avery family murders. Google the rest. There’s plenty.
I agree with most of what you say here but it’s not trite. I’ll say this. I was going to vote for Romney in MD before he dropped out.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 1:47 PM
And Olaf, I did apologize to you–you were correct, it was schick who is advocating that current Mormons are all mass murderers. Not you.
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 1:47 PM
No problem. Thanks for clearing that up
SaintOlaf on August 22, 2008 at 1:51 PM
I’m wrong on this one. I confused the family. I’ll look for the others. The list is big enough. If I provide a real list will you take back your slander against me?
shick on August 22, 2008 at 1:52 PM
Not with the crap you’re shoveling over here. I don’t appreciate this kind of BS. We’re talking about a person not a religious organization here and, believe me, if Mitt Romney had some Blood Atonement problems the Democrats would have used it so he wouldn’t have gotten elected to Dog Catcher in MD. If you ARE registered to vote Republican, I suggest you take the stylist and move 3 steps back from the voting booth. Your mindset is not what I want determining the leader of my Party.
Sultry Beauty on August 22, 2008 at 1:52 PM
The wise choice is Romney. Pawlenty is not going to excite the base. He has not been vetted, not good in economics compared to Romney. I just pray McCain would do the right thing.
mariloubaker on August 22, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Yea! If I’m still alive when you come up with it. Good luck with that!
Sultry Beauty on August 22, 2008 at 1:54 PM
BTW Vance, I don’t hate mormons. I do not like that they try to pass themselves off as Christian to the new converts at first and that they misrepresent us Christians though.
If there are mormons here that do consider themselves Christian…I do think that you will eventually leave mormonism, if you are truly seeking, when you realize that Mormonism is not the true Church and only goes back about a hundred and fifty years or so…
SaintOlaf on August 22, 2008 at 2:02 PM
Pwalenty’s problem is that he’s an unknown with even less national experience than Obama. He would bring nothing to the ticket and undermine McCain’s claim that we should all vote for him because of his experience. 72-year-olds can have health problems and it is not reassuring to ponder the idea that an unknown and inexperienced VP is sitting in the on deck spot should such a crisis occur.
That being said, McCain isn’t a team player. He’s going to pick whomever he wants without regard for what the base thinks about it. My guess is that it will not be Romney because McCain is holding a grudge (and more significantly Romney doesn’t seem to be out there campaigning for the job the way Tim Kaine is courting Obama). It could well be Pwalenty (making him the Jack Kemp of 2008) but I think if he doesn’t go for a GOP base crowd pleaser like Romney he’s going to find some female or other minority to put on the ticket.
I further suspect that McCain is not being coy but is waiting to find out what gender/race/species Obama picks before finalizing the deal. If Obama puts a female or minority on the ticket, a pasty old white guy like McCain is going have to find somebody to make him look less like a fossil.
highhopes on August 22, 2008 at 2:09 PM
St. Olaf: Rome, 80 AD, a Jewish Rabbi:
See how easy that is, Saint Olaf? I assure you, comments exactly like that were made to anyone who was thinking of joining the Early Church.
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 2:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvaGLT-_GhY
Here’s the one I saw. I saw the complete story. This is not an isolated case but these murders are few.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 2:12 PM
You don’t have any problem bearing false witness, do you? I noticed Huck has exactly the same problem. The people who are doing these things aren’t Mormons but you are either too bigoted or stupid to know that.
And to the dim bulb who thinks Mormons are murderers, my son-in-law was a missionary to Mormons, converted a few, none of whom was ever so much as threatened, much less murdered.
You do Christianity no favors with your bigotry. Even if you just stuck to Truth, you would be no more than a noisy gong.
I hope McCain picks Mitt Romney. I’m not voting for religion, just someone with competence, which would seem to exclude Huck.
sloopy on August 22, 2008 at 2:13 PM
You’re comparing apples with oranges..
SaintOlaf on August 22, 2008 at 2:18 PM
I never associated Romney with “Blood Atonement”. You are assuming that. I’m just revealing history and recent events.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Demonstrably, yes. Avery murders had nothing to do with the LDS church. Your “knowledge” of blood atonement comes from people who have a vested interest in painting the LDS church in the worst possible light. You confuse the LDS church and its doctrines with splinter groups, yet want to lump us all together.
According to Bill Clinton, if you listen to Rush Limbaugh, you helped kill all those people in Oklahoma City. What you’re attributing to Mormons is no less idiotic.
Yes, MMM was real, and it was shocking to most Mormons of the time, and even more so today.
No, Brigham Young was not involved, except in that vague Limbaugh/McVeigh way that Clinton peddled. Young did not order it. He ordered them NOT to – but the courier didn’t arrive in time to prevent the atrocity.
As to modern day blood atonement in the LDS church – it’s flat-out BS. We don’t preach it, we don’t practice it, and we condemn in the strongest terms anyone who tries to claim otherwise.
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 2:21 PM
Dammit, I had a long retort and lost it. I hate when that happens.
First let me say, the reason I believe you hate Mormons in every time there is a Mitt story, regardless of what it has to do with, here you are, like clockwork, ripping on Mormons.
You say LDS practice polygamy? Would you be referring to the FLDS out in the desert? The one who are not part of the mainstream church who are looked upon as insane by mainstream Mormons? Like Jim Jones? I don’t think regular Methodists see him as part of their church. Or maybe like the WBC is not looked upon as being part of the mainstream Baptist church. I certainly can see the difference and would never associate the two as being of the same faith and I don’t think any other sane person with a grain of common sense would either.
LDS do not practice marraige to underage girls, nor do they practice polygamy. I was brought up in the Mormon church. I strayed. My family are still devout. Some of the greatest people I know are Mormons. Solid family’s, solid character, solid faith.
Some people here are picking up a thing or two from the past, like the MMM and branding a whole religion as evil or using it as reason to distrust an entire group of people. This is wrong IMHO. MMM, if it did happen and I believe it did, happened in a different time, in an entirely different social climate. Mormons were hunted like animals and even had bounties on their heads just because they were Mormon. I’ve been in the jailhouse where Joseph Smith was assasinated. I don’t hate the people who did it. It was a different time, different place. I don’t see Mormons running around casting other religions as evil. They think other religions are wrong, doesn’t every religion? Catholics think everyone else is wrong.
Baptists think everyone else is wrong.
Jews, same thing.
Muslims, obviously.
Evangelicals, same thing.
I’m not even sure of what I’m trying to say anymore because this subject gets me so heated. Usually I see these posts and just avoid them because it’s like beating a dead horse.
I guess all I’m trying to say is live and let live. Mormons aren’t a threat to you and vice versa. You don’t like Mitt? Fine, voice your opinion but keep it grounded in reality instead of spreading lies. Polygamy, wrong. Marrying underage children, wrong. Those people who practice that kind of thing are NOT, I REPEAT, NOT mainstream LDS. They are criminals.
I need a smoke. Peace.
Geronimo on August 22, 2008 at 2:23 PM
Blood atonement as far as I understand means that those who shed blood (as in murder) must pay by having their own blood shed. Which means death by firing squad.
That doesn’t sound so strange to me.
Sekhmet on August 22, 2008 at 2:24 PM
?
Evidently mormons must think Joseph Smith was a raging lunatic then…
SaintOlaf on August 22, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Shick: I can’t watch most of that, (I’m in a place with no sound)but I noticed that it’s citing from 1) Mormon Doctrine, which isn’t that, and 2) is using quotes from a member of the Fundamentalist LDS church, who are NOT MORMONS.
That video is a hit piece. Tell you what–how about I post something about the protocols of the Elders of Zion and how it proves that all Jews are running the world, etc etc etc. based on the twisting of various Jewish statements.
I’d probably be more accurate than you have been! Look, I’m fully prepared to believe that the so-called fundamentalist groups that are in the news kill people. I don’t know any off hand, but I live in a town with one of those groups. Would it surprise me? No. But that’s one heck of a stretch to say that because they do it, it’s Mormon doctrine.
It’s the same as me saying that because Oliver Cromwell massacred some people, the Catholic church teaches massacres–because Cromwell was part of a religion that broke off of the Catholic church, so his actions are able to be viewed as authentic Catholic beliefs.
You really are on the “Mormons are murderers” thing. Why? Just to smear Mormons with as wide and horrible a brush as you can? What’s next–we rape women before we murder and eat them?
Man, sometimes I really feel like I know what the Jews have gone through with people smearing their name. Shick here is saying stuff that if said about the Jews would be widely reviled (except on the DailyKos) and would be blatantly anti-Semetic. Newsflash: there’s a rough equivalence between numbers of Jews in the world and numbers of Mormons. Don’t be inventing wild conspiracy theories here.
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Summation that some have missed.
- I think the vast majority of modern Mormons are nice and not murderers.
- As a Christian I believe that their theology is heretical and wrong.
- I would vote for a McCain/Romney ticket.
- The Mountain Massacre was terrible but a very real part of history.
- There are recent “Blood atonement” murders. The mormons that have recently committed these murders are from factions that claim they can still do it because their religious leaders said they could.
- I know that Romney and the vast majority of Mormons hold these views.
- Modern mormons cannot denounce their former leaders because they were prophets.
Hope I don’t have to say that one more time.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 2:32 PM
I watched the video link.
That woman was a victim of “Fundamentalist LDS” (the LeBaron cult). That group is not part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
If you want to paint the LDS church with the crimes of its apostates, I can’t stop you. But it’s no less wrong.
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 2:33 PM
Olaf, I never thought I’d say this, but on this thread you’re darn near a voice of reason. :)
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 2:34 PM
AHHH. I didn’t mean that. I meant DONT hold these views. SORRY SORRY SORRY!
shick on August 22, 2008 at 2:34 PM
SaintOlaf… please. Tell you what: we regard Joseph Smith in the same light we regard Abraham, Issac, or Jacob. Or King David. They were commanded or permitted to practice polygamy then, which commandment or permission is no longer valid today. Polygamy was practiced clear up until after Christ by the Jews.
I know it’s hard for you to let a good slam against the Mormons go, but I’ll only respect you if you toss your Old Testament out the window because it allowed and promoted Polygamy.
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 2:35 PM
I never painted the modern day church with this. Stop insinuating that I did. Reread my comments and you’ll see that you are wrong. I said from the beginning that the factions commit these crimes because they say that their prophets and leaders said they could.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 2:36 PM
Exactly as I see it. Capital punishment is something I firmly believe in.
carbon_footprint on August 22, 2008 at 2:36 PM
ROMNALENTY!
mojo on August 22, 2008 at 2:38 PM
Shick: And Moses and Joshua ordered entire populations exterminated too. If you hold us up to those standards and condemn and smear us, then by all means, be consistent and condemn those in the Bible too.
But putting all that aside, if you don’t believe modern Mormons and or Mitt Romney believe or practice it, why’d you bring it up, except to smear Mormons? Even if everything you said was true, all that was in the 1800′s, when good Christian pastors believed slavery was a command from God. They also believed in murdering people because they didn’t hold to their doctrine, not because they were former members who left–just because they didn’t like our beliefs. Holding us to something that was back then is highly hypocritical, don’t you think?
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Which is a big part of the reason why I supported Romney from early on over others. On these points he appears and by all counts is legitimate. McCain’s infidelity isn’t a big deal in post-Clintonian politics but let’s not forget that he didn’t have the moral character to stay faithful to his first wife.
I’d like to see somebody who is open about his faith and values on the ticket since McCain isn’t grounded in any faith (as proven by his repeated refusal to discuss the matter) and certainly isn’t the poster boy for family values. Romney would be a good choice but I suspect McCain can’t get over the personal animus it would take to make this ticket possible.
highhopes on August 22, 2008 at 2:40 PM
If that means dumping McCain entirely, I’m with you!
highhopes on August 22, 2008 at 2:42 PM
And thanks, Sekhment. That’s exactly what it is. Thanks, Carbon_footprint, too.
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 2:42 PM
The greatest thing McCain could do in regards to his VP choice is right after Obama announces his VP (assuming its not Hillary), McCain calls a press conference and publicly asks Hillary to join his ticket. Quite a bit of press coverage for such a bold move and speculation turns to “will she accept?”. Unless we head into the twilight zone she calls her own press conference and announces that for the good of her party she cannot accept, probably says at least 1 nice thing about McCain.
In that event the press is focused on McCain and Hillary not Obama. McCain comes across as smone dedicated to change and the ultimate Maverick. He also enthralls himself to Hillary supporters and conservative Dems.
If she does accept, they work something out and you then see the biggest electoral beat down ever to the point that on election night the question is “Can obama even win his home state?”
Zaggs on August 22, 2008 at 2:45 PM
Really! A video of a woman explaining how her life was in jeopardy and then to find out that she was indeed murdered is a hit piece?
I don’t have a problem living or working with Mormons. They are fine people just like many christians, muslims, hindus, atheists, etc. You however have a problem with someone pointing out your religions failings. And when I say that ( once again it seems I have to clarify myself because) I am not saying that the current leadership of LDS pushes its once believed doctrine. They stopped. They admitted it was wrong. What I am saying is that LDS factions today continue to practice what God’s so-called prophets instructed them to do. You sir seem to be bigoted to apponents of your theology.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 2:45 PM
For God’s sake, Ed and Allah, do you honestly think keeping bigots in the fold is productive? If only for illustrating how insanely twisted they are?
I’m tired of all the Mormon hate.
eaglesdontflock on August 22, 2008 at 2:47 PM
Malachi 2:14 clearly condems polygamy…in addition Jesus clearly points out that polygamy is not according to how He planned marriage to be in genesis..
In fact Jesus points out that polygamy is adultery.
SaintOlaf on August 22, 2008 at 2:50 PM
Actually Joshua was to exterminate entire populations of Nephilim seed…big difference.
Also not true…in fact it was a pastor that ended slavery.
SaintOlaf on August 22, 2008 at 2:54 PM
You finely have come up with a reasonable complaint. I don’t condemn Moses and Joshua because they were demonstrated to be true prophets before. John Smith and Brigham Young however have been proven to be charletans. Saying that there are sins that Christ’s blood will not atone for is blasephemous.
Good question. I brought it up because someone else said that Mormons have only done good things. I simply responded that it wasn’t true. Looking at MMM now can you disagree?
Equivocating. First of all pastors are quite different from Prophets. Prophets have direct connection with God. Pastor’s are to take what God has revealed through the prophets and preach to the church. The Pastors sinned terribly by condoning slavery. They knew in their hearts that God was appauld by the horrible slavery in America.
I don’t hold you responsible for what happened back then. You are really stretching this beyond what I have said.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 2:55 PM
Is ANYONE denying that? Seriously. There are arguments about some of the details, but nobody denies it happened. Three LDS scholars just recently published a book with many primary sources on the incident (far too many books are based on grapevine accounts and are, to put it mildly, unobjective.)
As has been stated repeatedly on this thread, THOSE AREN’T MORMONS. They’re splinter groups who (in the LDS view) have rejected the living prophets and the Holy Spirit. They see the modern LDS church as their enemy, not their parent. They cherry-pick doctrine to suit their needs, like any personality cult.
You do not know this; you assert it. Without foundation. You are wrong, and your sources are lies. You have been deceived.
Says who? Happens all the time. Doesn’t mean they’re right.
Do I believe everything that came out of Joseph Smith’s mouth? Or Brigham Young’s? No. See, here’s the thing. We believe in (1) living prophets, and (2) personal revelation. If a prophet says something we aren’t sure about, we’re supposed to pray and get our own confirmation of what he’s saying. (isn’t that what we do with the Bible? ancient dead guy writes something down, claiming it’s from God. How do we know? we pray about it. It’s no different with the modern variety.)
As a personal example: one of my local leaders went off the deep end and essentially started his own church. A few folks followed him, but most did not. Why? Because their belief is in GOD, not in that man. So when he said “follow me,” those who prayed about it said “go on without us.” He broke a lot of hearts; he had been a good man, even great – but when he went his own way he got scary in a hurry. FBI investigation scary.
Is the church to be blamed for what he became? If you say yes, then there is no convincing you otherwise.
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Pointing out history and recent events is hatred?
Now you sound like a member of Rev. Wright’s church. I’m a racist because I point out something wrong in Wright’s church. Great.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Shick: What on earth are you on about? You are explicitly saying that current Mormons are responsible for what apostate groups are doing. Denounce the Methodists, please, for allowing Jim Jones!
Let’s assume you are right–this woman was murdered. If so, it wasn’t by Mormons! Can not you get that through your head? The LDS church has never, ever ever as doctrine said that those who leave the church must be murdered by church members!
You are implying that at some point in my churchs history, it was standard doctrine to kill anyone who fell away. Really? Then why did David Whitmer die peacefully in his own bed after a long life–he was one of the most prominent members of the church and fell away. If anyone would be killed, it would have been him. William Law (who incited the mob that killed Joseph Smith) died of natural causes. If anyone would have been killed, it would have been him!
Your thesis dissolves under any sort of scrutiny. If there were Mormons running around murdering anyone and everyone who ever had either fallen away or had momentary lapses in faith, don’t you think it would have been PROVEN at some point?
Shick, put down your 1854 era copy of the latest scurrilous rumors about those evil Mormons. What you are saying just simply isn’t true. It has never been doctrine to murder those who fell away. That you believe whoever fed you that pack of lies is even worse.
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Hey Geronimo! Good to see/read you here.
Thanks, I should have wrote that instead of trying to confront the Mormon hate. I think it’s best to just walking away shaking my head. You can’t pull a bone away from Cujo, you know.
Sultry Beauty on August 22, 2008 at 2:59 PM
By the way, who is “John Smith?” Shick? Did you mean Joseph Smith? If you can’t even get the name of the first leader of the LDS church right, then what makes you think you have a clue about any of this? I thought everyone knew about “Joe smith, that evil Mormon!” Not you, apparently, who is claiming to know our doctrine of mass murder that we taught for years, but can’t even get our leaders name right–the one who would have instituted it.
Just where did you hear about this blood atonement, Shick? Let’s examine your source. It’s probably Ed Decker or Walter Martin, isn’t it?
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 3:04 PM
This is the crux of it. they are NOT (underscore, bold, flashing letters) “LDS factions.” They are ANTI-LDS. they have turned their backs on the LDS church. They continue to follow a perverted interpretation of prophets, without the benefit of the Holy Spirit.
Please stop calling them “LDS”. They are not LDS in any way, shape or form. They are founded on monkey-typed scripts of Hamlet, not the original manuscript. Those fundamentalist polygamy groups are as Mormon as George W. Bush is Catholic. Do you want to paint him with the sins of the Inquisition? That’s what you’re doing to the LDS church with your arguments.
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 3:07 PM
I agree with you 100% already stated the same and never said otherwise.
Now this is a different arguement entirely. But they claim that they are true Mormons just like you. Who is right if you both claim Brigham Young is a true prophet?
This was a typo. I already clarified that. I meant to say exactly the opposite.
If you were a follower of Joseph Smith back then you would have been ostrasized.
But what you are suggesting isn’t formal doctrine of LDS. If it is it is NEW. And that is a problem. God is unchanging. When he reveals something it isn’t wrong.
They maybe what Mormonism teaches today but it’s not Christianity.
Many people are led astray by the teachings of men. God’s word the Bible is inerrant.
If it can be demonstrated that the church was false starting with Joseph Smith, Yes.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 3:10 PM
Is this an example of your logic?
There isn’t a religion on the face of the earth that does not have a black mark somewhere in its history. Dwelling on the bad, and trying to attribute all bad things to Mitt Romney is bigoted. I know of no Mormons in the 21st century who even come close to what you describe.
I do know some Baptists and Church of Christ who can’t let go of their bigotry.
Yes, it is hatred to focus on bigoted subjects that have no bearing on this election or a candidate’s viability.
eaglesdontflock on August 22, 2008 at 3:11 PM
Good advice, Sultry, thanks. Time for me to take a few deep breaths.
Sorry for jumping in on this. Spinner did it the other day (not MrSpinner) with his Danites crap, and though I don’t mind people thinking we’re wrong/goofy/going to hell, I do worry when people describe us in terms the Palestinians reserve for Israel.
I’m not used to being the monster in someone’s anxiety closet. I can be snarky, but otherwise I’m a total teddy bear.
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 3:13 PM
Um, you are wrong. How about Obamaism?
There is no…er, never mind.
carbon_footprint on August 22, 2008 at 3:14 PM
I’m done with you Vance. I made my point simple and clear. You take it and spin it into something else. And yes I am familiar with Martin and the Tanners. I’m not following you down any more rabbit holes. Perhaps you’ll call me anti-Mormon bigot before your finished. You’ve said other unpleasantness.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Your definition of hate is wrong and sounds just like hate-crime talk. It’s subjective.
Hate has a definition. I neither dislike Mormons and have no aversion of hostility toward them.
I simply disagree with their theology.
And…. I like Mitt alot!!!! I like him alot!!!!.
Give me a break.
shick on August 22, 2008 at 3:19 PM
This thread has gone totally off the deep end about Mormonism! Somehow that hasn’t prevented Senate Republicans from appointing Orrin Hatch (Mormon) as Chairman or Ranking Member of the Senate Judiciary Committee over and over. People know that he’s conservative and fair-minded, and that’s enough.
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/082108Poll1.pdf
Yesterday’s FoxNews poll gives interesting insight into the wisdom of a Romney pick. When asked whether Romney as a running mate would make people more or less likely to vote for McCain, Romney polled 28% more likely / 30% less likely.
By partisan breakdown, Romney is 49-12 (more likely/less likely) among Republicans, 20-33 among Independents, 15-46 among Democrats, and 37-23 among Evangelicals. Romney seems to be a net positive among Evangelicals, so he wouldn’t lose any Southern states for McCain, although his pull with Mormons could help in NV and CO, and his father’s legacy could help McCain in MI. Possible negatives: could the loss of some Independent voters cost McCain in OH and MO?
Granted, this is only one poll, and the number of Evangelicals in a poll with 315 total Republicans might only be in double digits, but this poll doesn’t seem to predict a mass “exodus” of Evangelicals if Romney is the VP nominee.
Compare that to 18-33 for Tom Ridge and 20-38 for Joe Lieberman, and Romney seems to be a “do-no-harm” pick, who could eventually pick up a few points if he outshines Obama’s pick in the VP debate. Romney IS a good debater, or as Joe Biden might say, articulate.
On the Dem side, Joe Biden has about the same net effect for Obama as Romney for McCain: 27% more likely/29% less likely. Evan Bayh and Tim Kaine are net losers for Obama: 20-29 for Bayh and 17-32 for Kaine. If Kaine could win VA for Obama, would he cause Obama to lose some other close states?
Steve Z on August 22, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Only great if you aren’t a social conservative and/or evangelical Republican voter. This would be the ultimate betrayal from a man who has already proven himself a political Judas. You are essentially John McCain should run as the Democrat he is instead of maintaining the facade that he has any legitimate ties or allegience to the GOP.
From the standpoint of the nation, I am against the idea. Watching as the McCain apologists and revisionists (the shut up and vote for McCain since he isn’t Obama crowd) spin Hillary as the best choice McCain could have made would be fun to watch, however.
highhopes on August 22, 2008 at 3:21 PM
OK, OK..you shouldn’t have jumped in so quick. Made you look guilty.
I just think Saintolaf needs to go to the recycle bin.
eaglesdontflock on August 22, 2008 at 3:27 PM
You know, with the way things in the US and around the world are going, McCain may figure we have one shot to get it right, and may not worry about the next election, or even this one.
Who knows, maybe something shocking is in the works, or maybe not.
eaglesdontflock on August 22, 2008 at 3:30 PM
Shick: you brought it on yourself by implying that my church has taught indiscriminate murder at any point. You were challenged on that point and you have failed to back it up, resorting to apostate groups actions and imputing them as a result of my churches teachings. You say that Mormons were filthy murderers as a matter of doctrine in the 1800s (and appear to sincerely believe it), when that is a very large charge.
You then take umbridge at the fact that Mormons here are rather, shall we say, not letting you get away with the idea that my ancestors believed murder was a great idea and approved by God? And then you say I’ll accuse you of being an anti-Mormon bigot.
Well, I won’t. You’ve proven how you felt about Mormon doctrine to anyone who is watching without any help from me. Very few of the anti-mormon people on this board have even thought about going where you went today–not just that we are not Christian, but that we originally were a death cult, as you are. You need no help from me to show what kind of person you are.
You claim to not hate Mormons? Then why are you saying that theologically we belive in murder, or we did at one point? Because every single Mormon who’s chimed in here has STRONGLY rejected that claim. Do you think you know better than us? “Ah yes, my secret information shows I know more about Mormons than they do! And all I know is that they believed some stuff that is shocking, shocking I tell you!” You, sir, made an accusation of practice against my faith–that in the past we as a matter of fact were no better than people like the Aztecs or other types who killed people, or like modern day terrorists. That’s not a simple “theological difference,” that’s outright slander. I’m sorry that you seem to think I’m overreacting here, but since you claim my belief structure is a murderous one, I hope you’ll understand why I would object to it.
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 3:31 PM
I don’t like Romney and I’ve never supported him. However, there is one true upside to see him getting the nomination – St.Olaf’s head would blow up.
Mormon Doc on August 22, 2008 at 3:32 PM
With that, I’m done. In any case, back to the topic–Halperin says Romney or Pawlenty, the other rumor was Liebs or Pawlenty.
Common denominator: Pawlenty? Hope not!
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 3:34 PM
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 1:11 PM
Are you LDS?
Mormon Doc on August 22, 2008 at 3:38 PM
totally off topic
It’s great to hear from you Sultry Beauty. I’ve been thinking about in the wake of the Celtics/Lakers thing. My condolences to a die hard Lakers fan.
I’ve just been catching up on this post because it just has me really aggravated. Thank God for free speech though.
I hope you’re doing well.
Geronimo on August 22, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Vanceone
Thanks for defending the faith. I’m glad to see you standing up for all of us.
The fact is that SaintOlaf and Shick don’t have access to all of our “SECRET” stuff so they don’t know what we really have planned. HA HA HA HA.
If we can only get Romney in office then it’s forced Cannery Assignments for everyone! If that doesn’t scare people wait until they hear about Elders coming to put SOD in your yards. OH the humanity!!!
Mormon Doc on August 22, 2008 at 3:47 PM
Lol, Mormon Doc. What should really strike fear into their hearts is when they hear about funeral potatoes and having to learn to make jello salad for the relief society annual dinner.
And heaven forbid they hear about the Pinewood Derby!
As you said, Oh the Humanity!!!!!
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 3:49 PM
Actually, you have since you keep tying splinter groups to us because we sort of share a common prophet. Sort of, because they ignore MOST of what he said and focus only on what they want to hear.
How many people claim Reagan as their presidential ideal, who haven’t got a clue what he actually stood for? And that was just 30 years ago; those groups are claiming to represent the true interpretation of someone who died before they were born.
When Joseph Smith was killed, there was a question of succession. Many broke away and did their own thing before it was settled. The RLDS (now community of Christ) church was founded on the idea that Prophet is a hereditary calling. When the prophet in 1890 and reaffirmed in 1904 declared that the Lord had decreed that polygamy was no longer to be practiced, a lot of people called him a false and fallen prophet and did their own thing. Many of the groups we see today have their origins in that.
Who is right, you ask? Jesus said, “By their fruits ye shall know them.” the fruits of those polygamy cults is child abuse, murder, and misery. The fruits of the root church are good law-abiding neighbors. If there are true prophets called and directed by God, You tell me who’s following the right one.
messages crossed; i didn’t see your correction before I submitted. It happens, but I apologize.
Poppycock. Many people told Joseph to his face when they disagreed with him. Including members of his own family. Disagreement is one thing. Actively fighting against with intent to destroy is quite another.
Yes, it is a formal doctrine of the LDS church, and ALWAYS HAS BEEN, to have personal revelation. The LDS Church is founded on Joseph’s following James 1:5-6, that God will answer prayers given in faith. Joseph didn’t want a bunch of sheep in the church; he wanted everyone to have their own solid testimony of the things he was preaching so he didn’t have to do it all himself.
God doesn’t change, but His instructions frequently do, because circumstances change. God plagued the hell out of Egypt to get Pharaoh to let his people go, but he also killed most of those people over 40 years because they were so tainted with Egyptian culture to follow God properly. Even Moses only got to see the promised land, not live in it, for an act of disobedience. It was Joshua and a younger generation raised to follow God in the wilderness who inherited the land.
God says “thou shalt not kill (murder)”, but the Law of Moses has many capital offenses. Moses’ son skewered an adulterous couple one sabbath; is he a murderer, or was he executing a just punishment.
That’s a different issue entirely.
Men’s interpretations of the Bible are not inerrant.
Whatever.
It’s true that the LDS church is founded on the belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet who restored lost truths and lost priesthood to the earth. You believe it or you don’t. If you don’t, then LDS history makes little sense. If you do, there are still uncomfortable moments of history because Joseph Smith is sufficiently contemporary to have all sorts of primary documents about his life and death, from enemies as well as friends.
We don’t have equivalent documentation from the Jerusalem Post about that crackpot doomsayer, Jeremiah, whom the authorities have thankfully imprisoned for saying Babylon would conquer Jerusalem…as though that could ever happen…
It boils down to faith. My faith is in God. I think of Joseph Smith the way I think of myself when I serve in the church: a very human, imperfect person doing his best in the position he’s been called to. When my dad was a bishop, he helped some people nobody else could, and alienated others who just thought he was doing it wrong. He told me later that EVERY bishop experiences the same. “Church is true, but my current bishop is an idiot.”
It’s an interesting paradox – Mormons have faith in something most Christians find incomprehensible, but we’re also pretty darn skeptical when someone comes to us saying “thus sayeth the Lord.” We demand independent confirmation. If it really IS from God, then when we pray, we’ll know for sure, or we won’t follow along.
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 3:53 PM
Have to disagree. It was a “speech about nothing”. He gave a faith speech just to say he gave a faith speech. He didn’t get into Mormon doctrine, which was what people were hoping. He didn’t explain to Americans what his “beliefs” were only to say that his “church” would not dictate, or interfere with, his presidential decisions. He asked voters to judge him on his polical record — not on his personal religious beliefs. I thought it was disingenuous. Anybody who tells you that their world-view, their religious faith, that it won’t heavily influence their political decisions, well, they are either ignorant, or lying to you.
You should really re-think this question.
apacalyps on August 22, 2008 at 3:54 PM
Folks, I’m sorry for helping to drag this out.
I’d much, much rather talk politics. :)
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 4:01 PM
Mormon Doc,
yes, I’m LDS.
If it’s not obvious, I’m doing something wrong. :)
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 4:02 PM
apacalyps on August 22, 2008 at 3:54 PM
I agree with you. Lots of people want to know what makes Mormons different. I think Romney is weak and he represents the church poorly because he denies important parts of the gospel. I think a lot of times the mistakes we make as a faith are due to us wanting to be accepted by other faiths. Lots of LDS people get upset when they are separated from Christian faiths. The whole point of being Mormon is that you believe you belong to the one true faith so I have no idea why it bugs them. For what its worth, if Mitt Romney was my Bishop I would not sustain him and would respectfully voice my opinion to him and the Stake President.
Mormon Doc on August 22, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Thank you Vanceone
Thank you Sulla
Thank you Mormon Doc
Thank you Sultry Beauty for defending the faith I was brought up in and have immense respect for.
You guys rock!
Geronimo on August 22, 2008 at 4:08 PM
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 4:02 PM
The reason I ask is that you made a generalization about the church being liberal. You said:
I don’t agree with you but the fact is that your statement associates the church with a whole host of abominable practices not the least of which is abortion. The church is very clear about that subject and I think it is important if you are going to make a statement like that as a member of the church that you would support it with statistics rather than simply claiming it.
Your statement does not conform with my experiences interacting with members in different parts of the world (primarily in the Western Hemisphere) and I think that if you look at the great state of Utah and the voting patterns there you might have a different perspective on church members political leanings.
Just my two cents.
Mormon Doc on August 22, 2008 at 4:13 PM
Thanks, Geronimo.
Wait – did you say you’re no longer actively LDS?
Oh dear.
(Dials 1-800-DANITES)
“Yeah, we got a runner…”
(I keed, I keed…)
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 4:16 PM
Mormon Doc,
I was referring chiefly to the political leanings of most non-American LDS. On the moral issues (like abortion) they’re pro-life, but on economic policy they would be considered more friendly to things like european-style socialism, and they aren’t fond of American nationalism.
I don’t agree with them. But the point is that globally, LDS are far less wrapped up in “petty American party politics” than you’d think.
I lived in Utah for fifteen years; I have a jaundiced view of the political environment there. (They voted that Democrat swine Bill Orton to three terms in Congress; what were they smoking?) With some exceptions, a Utah “liberal” is further right than a Maine Republican. As a “California Mormon” even I was deemed a bit of a lefty, which irritated me to no end. :)
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 4:26 PM
Mormon Doc: Even though I don’t agree with you about Romney, I have to agree with you about the dems and dingy harry. I don’t know of many Mormons that can go along with the dem’s platform.
Now we have a candidate who believes that baby’s are punishment and could actually believe that you can leave a botched abortion baby to lie there and die. I don’t care why he says he voted against it, the outcome is that babies were left to die in a linen closet. I believe he is a monster! I can’t think that many people who support abortion on demand could go along with infanticide.
Gee Geronimo, I feel badly that you left me off of the list!
Bambi on August 22, 2008 at 4:27 PM
Already on it. A super-secret assassin team has already been dispatched from our ultra-snazzy-super-secret base. Heh, all the while people thought that the vaults in Granite Mountain are for genealogical records! Bwahahahah!!
scrub_oak on August 22, 2008 at 4:29 PM
*sigh* I’m left off the list too. And I was the one whose original comment provoked it all. : (
carbon_footprint on August 22, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Yes, I am no longer active. Mom joined in 1970 so I was raised in LDS with my sister but I strayed at around 16 or so. My family are still devout Temple go’ers. We have the Missionaries over for dinner now and then and I join them.
I joke that I’m the Prodigal son. Maybe it isn’t such a joke though.
I was just checking out Mormon Docs site and I think I’ll have to get the book.
These posts just burn me up with the misinformation and everything.
Nice to meet you.
Geronimo on August 22, 2008 at 4:33 PM
This is making me dizzy, Lieberman, Huckabee, Pawlenty, Ridge, Palin and now Romney..
I have known a lot of Mormons and they are perfectly nice people. This fear of them is silly.
Terrye on August 22, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Sorry Carbon_Footprint. I didn’t read all the posts. I knew as soon as I saw the Romney picture yesterday how this would turn out, as it always does. I just had to add my 2 cents. You all are much better debaters than I so I leave it to you all most of the time.
I guess I’ll have to watch out for the hit team that’s going to be after me.
Note to self: Must find young girl to sacrifice and eat while polishing my horns before the game tonight.
Anyone I missed? Thanks for standing up.
And I say these things, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen
Geronimo on August 22, 2008 at 4:38 PM
And Bambi, so sorry. I feel like I’m giving an award speech or something. Bambi, love the name.:)
Geronimo on August 22, 2008 at 4:40 PM
It is my pleasure to do so. I am a Christian but I will be the first to defend Mormons. The unprovoked and unjustified hatred that they get is beyond ridiculous. Mormons are great people and make great Americans, neighbors and I challenge anyone to prove that statement wrong. : )
carbon_footprint on August 22, 2008 at 4:41 PM
It’s genuine pleasure to meet you too.
I recommend the hobo women. :)
sulla on August 22, 2008 at 4:45 PM
I should add that there is no reason to think that a Mormon would not make a great Vice President either.
carbon_footprint on August 22, 2008 at 4:45 PM
Heh. I’m sorry, but We Mormons tolerate absolutely no dissent from party lines, which, of course, is so far right wing that Luddites are leftist…. Just don’t mention Harry Reid.
Here in my county in Utah, the two biggest parties are the Republican and the Constitution party. Thankfully!
Vanceone on August 22, 2008 at 4:49 PM
Sulla, right you are. Noone will miss them. I really do joke. It’s a pleasure to meet you too.
Carbon_footprint, I agree. I was a huge Mitt supporter and I admit, I am biased because of my background but I do agree with Mitt on just about everything, plus, it would be nice to have a Polititian that I know is of great moral character and I do have faith that he is just that. To me he is, whatever anyone else thinks.
I hope you all have a great weekend.
Geronimo on August 22, 2008 at 4:52 PM
Terrye on August 22, 2008 at 4:34 PM
That’s exactly what we want you to think. And before you know it…you are trapped. Trapped in a warm tub of honey butter and family home evenings.
Mormon Doc on August 22, 2008 at 4:54 PM
Sulla
Your point is well taken and I understand much better what you were driving at. I appreciate you clarifying it for me.
Mormon Doc on August 22, 2008 at 4:54 PM
Thank you Geronimo.
carbon_footprint on August 22, 2008 at 5:04 PM
Hey Geronimo I just read Mormon Doc’s bio and listened to his interview on the radio and it sounds like it might be a good idea to read his book. It sounds like your family would love you to come back. I know I would love a couple of my sons to come back.
Mormon Doc: I have a new found respect for you. Nice to be able to put a face and a story with a name. Thanks
Bambi on August 22, 2008 at 5:05 PM
Yes. That’s right, Mormon Doc. If you are a Mormon then why all the secrecy? You need to come out and state what you believe.
I have often thought that he compromises his Mormon faith for political gain.
Correct. And I think all of us have done this in our lives. Y’know, said or done something that compromises our core beliefs, that in hindsight we’ve regretted.
That’s right, but Mormonism is not Christianity so there is no reason to get upset. If you are a Mormon believe what it is you believe, it’s a free country, but don’t get upset when Christian’s don’t compromise their faith to include you and your doctrine. They really need to come to grips with that.
Correct. Mormons believe they belong to the one true faith. As you know I don’t agree with Mormonism, but if they wanna believe that, that’s their right. Just don’t go trying to blend that belief with Christianity which doesn’t agree. That’s all. You have your faith and they have theirs. Don’t get upset.
I think he’s been at serious odds with the Mormon church on several occasions. Anyways, thank you Mormon Doc. You have spoken truthfully. I agreed with everything you said. Wow! Of course you know that I don’t agree with Mormonism, but I do agree that everyone has the right to believe what they want.
apacalyps on August 22, 2008 at 5:30 PM
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