What’s the point of such cooperation?

Moving stuff across Russia to supply US forces in Afghanistan.

“This is not going to happen. If Afghanistan is the new Vietnam for the Americans then it will be a problem for Russia itself … We are not interested in the alliance’s failure in Afghanistan.”

Russia has been planning and contemplating things for a while, it is becoming obvious. They have been listening to the liberals and have determined we are weak. They will allow us to continue to weaken ourselves while picking off the original satellite countries. I don’t think they believe that NATO and the USA will call their bluff and based on France, Condi, NATO, and Bush’s responses, I don’t know that they’re wrong in saying that. Scary but I think Bush is looking at a legacy the way Clinton did, and he doesn’t want to be in a major conflict with Russia while he’s on the way out.

I’m still hopeful, though, that someone will come to their senses. The Bush Administration should have started tightening down on Russia when people we’re ending up poisoned.

At It Again…
Beyond Diplomacy?

The International “Suck it” sign. To the World from the Russian Empire.
……

Wimp:

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Were tele-transportation beams invented last night while I was asleep?

OSLO (Reuters) – Doubts surfaced over the future of military cooperation between NATO and Russia on Wednesday after Norway said Moscow had informed it of a decision to freeze all joint work with the alliance in the row over Georgia.

What’s the point of such cooperation? Is Norway going to help defend Russian from an invasion by Finland?

Russia has it’s own definition of withdraw from Georgia, and has gone as far as making threats of going ‘beyond diplomacy’ over Poland. Russia is also talking about exiting NATO.Michael Totten has a close up of how things look for the Georgians….

“They’ve stolen everything. They’ve bombed everything. This is fascism, that’s what this is.”

Russian forces blocked the only land entrance to Georgia’s main port city on Thursday, a day before Russia promised to complete a troop pullout from its ex-Soviet neighbor.

“(The Russians) are making fun of the world,” he declared.

davem on August 21, 2008 at 6:39 AM

Hopefully it is clear to the powers to be that Iran, Russia, China and Venezuela are all talking to each other and the common denominator is world dominance. The USA acting as sheriff puts us in their cross-hairs.

Someone needs to connect the dots for the rest of the people in this country since a military conflict with Russia will make Iraq look like a minor police action.

Something about the Georgian military and national leadership being a bit more willing to operate along the guidelines of Geneva. Second, why give the Russians, and a good bit of the rest of the world, any excuse to label the Georgians as nothing more than terrorists and thugs and have the evidence to prove it?

coldwarrior on August 20, 2008 at 7:02 PM

Not at all. Thermite grenades (which are very easy to make) set on top of the engine compartment of an armored vehicle will melt through and destroy the engine in seconds, while not injuring anyone who isn’t stupid enough to stare at it as it burns.

Yep. Thousands and thousands of dead non-combatant civilians, thousands and thousands of dying or wounded soldiers precluded from treatment or forced into slavery. Butchery and barbarity beyond description. And that was just in the run up to the first Geneva Convention in 1863.

coldwarrior on August 20, 2008 at 10:00 PM

A good deal of the butchery and barbarity, as defined by todays standards, was a result of the state of the art: swords, pointy sticks, arrows, axes, boiling oil; and some more modern weapons: grape shot, dum dums, grenades, mortars, rifles, mustard gas, etc..

As we, the West, advance in our technology we leave the rest of the world behind. Those farthest behind (least able to afford modern tools of the trade) still use what is available: machetes, cheap machine guns (AK-47s), pointy sticks, axes, etc…

And until the time of Korea/Vietnam, nobody had effective battlefield medicine which adds tremendously to the losses.

coldwarrior on August 20, 2008 at 10:00 PM

When did all of that stop? When did we ever do any of that – outside of attacking civilians, which has always been understood as part of war, though we have usually let the enemy decide if they wanted to go there, first?

I’m not sure what you’re driving at. The Geneva Conventions have never stopped anything from happening. It’s just paper. Occassionally, countries play with them for one reason or another, but everyone ignores them any time they want. We have never fought an enemy that adhered to the Geneva Conventions, as we have both agreed that we don’t (with respect to nukes), so their efficacy in war is really not even a consideration. Getting rid of Geneva doesn’t mean that we’re going to change much. We have US law and our military law and that’s all we need. We don’t need any open, fuzzy international treaty that has no real meaning, no real enforcement, no real effect, other than to open us up to the interpretations of others who have signed onto it without having many of the real responsibilities of the world, today. That’s how I see it.

“I am very thankful to the West,” Maya said as her eyes welled up with tears. “They support us so much. We thought we were alone. I am so thankful for the support we have from the United States and from the West. The support is very important for us.” She tried hard to maintain her dignity and not cry in front of me, a foreign reporter in fresh clothes and carrying an expensive camera. “The West saved the capital. They were moving to Tbilisi. There was one night that was very dangerous. The Russian tanks were very close to the capital. I don’t know what happened, but they moved the tanks back.” And my translator, whose husband works for Georgia’s ministry of foreign affairs, made a similar guess that the West helped save the capital. “The night they came close to Tbilisi,” she said, “Bush and McCain made their strongest speeches yet. The Russians seemed to back down. Bush and McCain have been very good for us.”

The Russian “military” in Georgia has equipment that is junk waiting for American bombs to take it out. The air defenses they sold to Iraq for jamming GPS was taken out easily by GPS-guided bombs.

Russian version of double dog dare ‘ya. Well, what comes next. They obviously feel that they have the upper hand and nobody will do anything about it. Checkmate?

jeanie on August 20, 2008 at 9:31 PM

If the Russians thought “they have the upper hand and nobody will do anything about it”, they would be in Tbilisi and not seeming to back down from the capital of Georgia.

Yep. Thousands and thousands of dead non-combatant civilians, thousands and thousands of dying or wounded soldiers precluded from treatment or forced into slavery. Butchery and barbarity beyond description. And that was just in the run up to the first Geneva Convention in 1863.

The Geneva Conventions do not forbid espionage. But, they do class “spies” as being a different “protected class” than POW’s.

I carried that little bit of Geneva with me for many years.

Yes, it doesn’t forbid spies, but it forbids just about everything that spies actually have to do.

Guess I am talking past you, in a way. If we do not stand for something better, than what separates us from all the rest of the countries in the world?

We have the right to live our lives in peace the way we want. That’s good enough for me. I don’t feel any need to prove that I’m better than someone who’s trying to kill me. During war, we fight to win, not to ‘not lose’ – as Truman, unfortunately redirected American war strategy.

No, Geneva is not perfect. But what werethe standards before Geneva and in the absence of Geneva?

The way they are with Geneva – you take your chances when you attack someone. I trust America to make up our own minds as to what is appropriate, not some set of rules laid down in a different world, and never seriously, anyway.

But, the important point is this: Geneva means nothing. It is not self-executing, has no enforcement arm working on it, no judiciary ruling over it, no sense of compliance in any real sense … It is just a piece of paper that is attached to nothing real. It is a fairy tale and nothing else – legally speaking.

The recent (well, several years ago) decision to aford Geneva protections for AQ and Taliban and jihadis was the wrong tack from an operational perspective.

I’m in full agreeement, here.

According to Geneva, we are only required to offer them a cigarette and a blind fold. Unfortunately, the legal wizards, reacting to polling, decided that we could open that Pandora’s Box. Gitmo was selcted because, under Treaty, non-US military members are subject to Cuban law. For non-US military members US law did not apply. But, again, the legal wizards and Congress, reacting to polling, made changes in our application of Geneva that now serve to imperil US service members across the world. It is entirely feasible for a US servicemember in Europe or any other country in the world, on leave, not in a military capacity, to be arrested, detained, and tried as a war criminal under local law for the same.

And this is another reason for us to be rid of Geneva in toto. The Euros look at all of these treaties as nothing more than weapons to use against America (as none of the Euros has EVER followed Geneva, in the least). Other ratholes around the world could even try the same. Best to throw the paper out and take care of that problem, right now. Enemy treatment of our soldiers is best handled via force. If they do something we don’t like, their country pays for it. That’s how things worked before Geneva and that’s they still really work.

I doubt if anyone in Congress, or the current Administration gave that a thought.

Congress is devoid of thoughts, period.

if we can scarf up “quasi-military types” in another sovereign nation and transport them to Gitma and then put them on trial within the US military and civil court system…who can now say other countries cannot do the same. reciprocity is the root of all our international agreements and Geneva.

They can try. Geneva never stopped them from trying. It was deterence that does that, and Geneva provides negative deterence.

If we openly toss out Geneva, or operationally tweak Geneva downward as we have since 9-12, then no US citizen or servicemember is safe anywhere in the world.

It’s a can of worms I’d prefer left unopened.

coldwarrior on August 20, 2008 at 9:23 PM

The can was opened by the SCOTUS and Bush and pushed by the idiot media. That’s a done deal. I’m repeating myself, but the safety of US citizens or servicemembers anywhere in the world has never been defended by anything other than US power, as it will be after we toss Geneva in the trash.

The Russians seem to beleive their world media offensive is totally going their way. Not.

“Even Americans are saying, “Thank you Russia for standing up to the crackpots in control of our government.”

When Pravda is again generating such bold faced lies…well, it means we have struck a nerve on their side. We need to strike more nerves. So much so, that they cannot fashion a response. So much so that we can start setting the timing and tempo of our repsonse.

And, from the Pravda article…quoting an obvious leftard here in America, if they didn’t just make up the wuote out of whole cloth:

“A respondent who considers himself a Republican wrote, “There is no reason that we should be antagonizing them on their border. It scares me that this oilman president will take us into another war with a much more deadly foe over an oil pipeline through Georgia. I am a registered Republican, but enough is enough. Impeach George Bush, if he gets us involved in the Russo-Georgian war.”

Do they really want war? Beligerent as they may be, even the Russians must know that it will be a devastating thing that will leave them and us broken beyond belief. Even the Russians can’t be that stupid. Can they?
jeanie on August 20, 2008 at 9:42 PM

They’re relying on the idea that no matter what, we won’t fight. Quite honestly, I think they are right. We’re too weak, distracted, and, frankly, too apathetic to act.

Well, what comes next. They obviously feel that they have the upper hand and nobody will do anything about it.
jeanie on August 20, 2008 at 9:31 PM

We have to play for time. Military measures are, I’m sure, being planned. I believe that the Western allies have the strength to be a tad asymmetric, and not play into obvious Russian strengths/traps. Turkey approved a Bosporus transit of 3 US Navy ships today. Ships are how to move lots of supplies.

The immediate response is sure to be economic. The Russian stock market and the ruble are both sinking fast. Russia leaders hold lots of their ill-gotten wealth in the West. How convenient.
Making Putin a lot poorer in his personal trillion $ would be a savvy touch.
The West has spent the last 7 years getting better at using the international banking system to the West’s advantage.

The more bellicose Putin talks now, the better to oppose him. At the moment, Georgia is being raped by Russians and their allied thugs. Russian action are beyond spin of all but the lock-step left. The West is giving the Russians rope. We aren’t selling them rope, but giving them room to make their brutal actions unmistakable. Among the thinking Europeans – the US can be the good guys again.

Speaking to reporters traveling with her, Rice said, “the Russians are losing their credibility.”

Sure, the Russians lost their credibility in terms of “words,” but I’d say they are pretty clear in terms of “deeds.” It’s a shame that we’ve lost credibility in both… Godspeed, Georgia and Poland.