Pat Buchanan: “If Cold War II is coming, who started it, if not us?”
posted at 2:40 pm on August 19, 2008 by Allahpundit
For a man willing to blame Britain for World War II, this is an easy call. Kevin Drum has already addressed the stupidity of the idea that the U.S., in Buchanan’s words, might have given Georgia “a green light” to invade South Ossetia, so read him for that. I’m more interested in the two strands here. One is the isolationist point that it’s foolish and dangerous for the U.S. to commit itself to defending foreign powers by admitting them to NATO; whether NATO membership for Russia’s neighbors would increase or actually reduce the risk of war is debatable, but on its own terms that point is fair enough. It’s the second strand that carries the distinctive Buchanan odor. Tell me if I’m wrong to read this — particularly the tender description of Putin as a “Russian patriot” — as a none-too-veiled attempt to defend Russian expansionism:
Should America admit Ukraine into NATO, Yalta, vacation resort of the czars, will be a NATO port and Sevastopol, traditional home of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, will become a naval base for the U.S. Sixth Fleet. This is altogether a bridge too far.
And can we not understand how a Russian patriot like Vladimir Putin would be incensed by this U.S. encirclement after Russia shed its empire and sought our friendship? How would Andy Jackson have reacted to such crowding by the British Empire?
As of 1991, the oil of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan belonged to Moscow. Can we not understand why Putin would smolder [Feel his pain. -- ed.] as avaricious Yankees built pipelines to siphon the oil and gas of the Caspian Basin through breakaway Georgia to the West?…
Vladimir Putin is no Stalin. He is a nationalist determined, as ruler of a proud and powerful country, to assert his nation’s primacy in its own sphere, just as U.S. presidents from James Monroe to Bush have done on our side of the Atlantic.
A resurgent Russia is no threat to any vital interests of the United States. It is a threat to an American Empire that presumes some God-given right to plant U.S. military power in the backyard or on the front porch of Mother Russia.
Whereupon he lurches into a climactic perfunctory sneer about getting Saakashvili a job at AEI and calls for Joe Biden to hold public hearings on whether Bush Knew. There’s no reason I can see why anti-NATO isolationists can’t also be pro-Georgia: Restricting the use of U.S. military force to our own “sphere” isn’t inconsistent with wanting to help fledgling former Soviet satellites protect their independence through trade, military training, foreign aid, and diplomacy. Buchanan seems to be saying otherwise, that not only should we get out of Putin’s way, we should actually informally (or formally?) recognize Russia’s dominion over those satellites. How else to read the creepy nostalgia about Yalta being a resort for Russian aristocracy or the suggestion that Putin, a guy known for bumping off journalists who cross him, reached out to the U.S. in good faith by nobly “shedding” his empire before the evil neocons slapped his hand away? (PB must be the only person left in the world who thinks Bush’s infamous assessment of Putin’s soul was correct.) To put it another way, just what does he mean by Russian “primacy” and how far exactly does its “sphere” extend? If we’re supposed to stand idly by while Moscow all but reabsorbs its neighbors, then never mind Cold War II — we’ll be right back to Cold War I. And that actually will be our fault.
What kind of isolationist apologizes for another country’s expansionism, anyway? Answer: The same kind that thinks Churchill was the chief warmonger of the early 1940s, I guess. Exit question: For people who complain so much about neocons dramatically overstating the threats from foreign powers, Birchers like Buchanan and Ron Paul sure aren’t above dramatically understating them, are they?
Update: Headlines comments imported.










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Thats what you get when you go on Lefty talk
shows!
Please,don’t drink any water,sealed cans,or any
kind of Koolaid,even the little kids roadside
koolaid stand along the way!eh!
canopfor on August 19, 2008 at 3:05 PM
I am also convinced.
wise_man on August 19, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Are you being sarcastic or are you a Nazi apologist?
Rick on August 19, 2008 at 3:06 PM
Hey I guess Allah was reading! Thanks Allah!
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 3:07 PM
I agree. I thought that Russia would have made one of our most natural allies after 9/11. Instead, Bush went with the “every single nation in the world, including Iran – except for Israel” coalition, which I thought was a joke beyond jokes. … but those days are long gone.
I disagree, here. We haven’t taken the posture of an enemy, but we have treated Russia with less respect than France. I never understood this. Russia always held a strategic nuclear arsenal, which meant that they were still #2, and depending on their brinksmanship skills, perhaps better.
I never understood that.
But the Cold War never did end. The arsenals always existed. The only real question is how much room Russia thinks it has under the nuclear umbrella, and how close to the brink they are willing to go. We never really have any control of that, though we should have some ideas about it .. hopefully. But the way we let Iran push us around made Russia a little ticked that it was missing out on the amazing weaknesses being displayed by the West. If someone’s paying $1000 per penny, why not try and sell them some?
progressoverpeace on August 19, 2008 at 3:07 PM
Pat is an extreme nationalist.
If you look at his arguments in that light you will understand them. You may not like them, but he is not “insane”.
pseudonominus on August 19, 2008 at 3:08 PM
Pat was cool on Crossfire in the early 80′s – what happened to him? My money is on dementia.
Think_b4_speaking on August 19, 2008 at 3:08 PM
ThackerAgency:
The answer to this problem is to make Russia our ALLY.
And just turn a blind eye to radiation poisoning in London, the murder of journalists, the destabilization of democracies, etc.
We shouldn’t have condemned them for Chechnya. I would have expected our government to respond the same way to muslim terrorists.
Our government did not indiscriminately murder Afghani civilians in response to 9/11.
Your views make perfect sense to me, ThackerAgency; all I have to do is discard morality.
sandberg on August 19, 2008 at 3:09 PM
You’re doing exactly what the MSM does. The MSM trots out P.B., an anti-semite, as its “representative” of the GOP.
You call P.B. “the face of the McCain hating “True Conservative.”” So while the MSM smears those to its right, so do you in the same comment where you denounce this sneaky tactic.
aengus on August 19, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Now that is very cruel indeed.
I’m not that much of a Pat fan (other than the speech I quoted earlier where he warned of the left’s culture war against us) but has he sharpened this same philosophy that he’s had for some time, right? I mean, this isn’t new for Pat is it? When he ran for president, I recall a very isolationist, let whoever invade their neighbors, I don’t give a crap – close the borders even for legal immigrants sort of thing.
wise_man on August 19, 2008 at 3:09 PM
GA is a normal German Socialist. If you have ever been to Germany, he sounds exactly like every other over 35 German I met there. The younger generation doesn’t think that way… as I had a nice 18 yr old German exchange Student friend who would explain quite a bit of the issues concerning Germany and why the younger Generations was getting tired of the dribble. Camron was a great kid and will go far. he is hoping after University (which was free but this year will be charge 500 euro per year per child) to come to the United States and make it here. I hope he does.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 3:10 PM
Pat Buchanan has turned out to be one of America’s most renowned useful idiots. Does anyone, really take this fool seriously?
byteshredder on August 19, 2008 at 3:10 PM
the failure of the Bush forgeign policy is that instead of spreading democracy across the globe they should havbe been spreading the US consitution. The federal government forgets that it is not democracy that has made the USA the world’s only super power it was that document that did it.
PB is an idiot. Of course we want friendship with anti-dictoator realms. IF we want an end to wars we need to spread the benifits of US citizenship. Human rights, freedoms of sppeech,religion, rigths to bear arms, self protection, freedom from search and seizure, not just democracy but the underlying truths and rights that protect that democracy.
unseen on August 19, 2008 at 3:14 PM
Senility isn’t pretty.
My collie says:
CyberCipher on August 19, 2008 at 3:14 PM
It’s the anti-semitism, silly.
funky chicken on August 19, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Why is Buchanan still afforded any credibility in conservative circles?
davenp35 on August 19, 2008 at 3:17 PM
MB007, did you see this?
Stongly Worded Letter
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2585060/US-left-isolated-over-Nato-plans-to-maintain-relations-with-Russia.html
Perhaps it’s time to let Vlad have Great Britain.
funky chicken on August 19, 2008 at 3:18 PM
For some, he’s gone ‘so far to the right,’ that he’s actually touching elbows with those on the far left.
wise_man on August 19, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Its a bit more complicated than that I’d say. However if we are to follow your logic that the US Constitution made the US the world’s only super power then wouldn’t spreading the US consitution across the globe simply create lots and lots of Great Powers?
aengus on August 19, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Which would make canada supposedly one, since their constitution mimic ours.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 3:21 PM
His credibility lies within liberal circles – - the liberals point to him as a rational conservative. In their opinion, one that other conservatives should emulate. The guy is also one of the token “conservatives” on MSNBC.
Rick on August 19, 2008 at 3:21 PM
Well hes allowed himself to become as bitter and anti-American as the far left but his actual proposals aren’t necessarily left-wing in nature.
aengus on August 19, 2008 at 3:21 PM
Not if they all became new states. Extra UNITED STATES to be exact. I know it’s blasphemy to even consider that. . . what with world history being on the side of my ideas instead of the ‘new American’ concept of being the world’s police force that America and American military has become.
Of course if every state were a United State, they would all get to vote, and all office holders in DC would be Asian in all likelihood.
ThackerAgency on August 19, 2008 at 3:23 PM
progressoverpeace–I’m not calling you anti-semitic. Your paragraph was a pretty good description of a Bakerite (as in James Baker) plan after 9/11. Everybody but Israel.
But IMHO Buchanan’s “root cause” has always been Israel, and in his case (and possibly James Baker’s) it’s most likely anti-semitic in source.
Russia under Putin’s leadership has never been a natural US ally. McCain saw it pretty quick. Unfortunately Bush took several years to catch on. How many years would it take Barry O? shudder
funky chicken on August 19, 2008 at 3:23 PM
Which would make canada supposedly one,
upinak on Aug 19,2008 at 3:21PM.
upinak: I can’t believe my freaggin ears!
We are a SuperPower,of Bacon,Beer and fine
Canadian beaver,in their natural habitat,of
course!haha—————————-:) :)
canopfor on August 19, 2008 at 3:27 PM
Oh I know.. remember I am an island off the west coast of canada.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 3:29 PM
That wouldn’t bother the multi-culturalists much I don’t think. “Imagine theres no countries.. a brotherhood of man.”
aengus on August 19, 2008 at 3:30 PM
Thanks. I wasn’t sure. I didn’t think you were applying it to me. I thought, “Maybe Bush?” but then brushed that aside.
I don’t think that Baker is motivated by anti-semitism, I always thought he was motivated by a globalist and certainly pro-arab view. Israel seemed to stand in the way of what Baker thought the world should look like, and nothing gets between James Baker and his views. To be honest, Buchanan still doesn’t strike me as anti-semitic. I think he’s just trying to be too cute by half.
progressoverpeace on August 19, 2008 at 3:30 PM
“hard headed dialogue” Has a certain Obamaish ring, doesn’t it? Putin knows these guys are easy meat. No military intervention, no diplomatic or economic punishment,..what’s for him not to like?
a capella on August 19, 2008 at 3:30 PM
Honestly, can Pat Buchanan marginalize himself anymore than he already has?
Wyznowski on August 19, 2008 at 3:31 PM
Precisely the right question. So far, I haven’t heard any answers from anyone. It’s our obligation to have an answer to that question too, not just Buchanan’s or Putin’s.
And if the answer ‘aint zero, you’re getting damn close to Georgia.
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 3:31 PM
If the Persian’s accomplish their renaissance, who will the Georgians and Azeris turn to for assistance/protection?
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 3:32 PM
Excuse me, but Azerbaijan was free after the Russian collapse until the USSR squashed it in 1920. You can make that claim of Russian dominion all you want, even with the “Great Game” played with Great Britain, but you can’t make it with Azerbaijan.
I call Bullsh!t.
Miss_Anthrope on August 19, 2008 at 3:33 PM
I think we had this question before. Putin said he wanted ALL of what belonged to Russia, to belong again…
Do you think Putin was joking?
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Extreme Nationalist of the Third Reich, it would seem. Herr Pat blames America for every possible war in the world, and makes excuses for every tyrant, mass murderer and sociopath out there.
I hope one day to see this degenerate’s lifeless body hang on the gallows.
Aristotle on August 19, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Not necessarily in nature, aengus. No. But more than a few look too close for comfort.
Bitter? I think so. As for ‘Anti-American,’ I guess that depends on how you and I, and how Pat defines that. I think he believes that he is very much pro-American. Standing by and watching other countries fall to dictators and thugs does not fall into my definition of “American.” Reagan told Gorbachev to tear down the Berlin wall. While a president Buchanan would just have gone, “Meh.”
And while Russia used the excuse of georgia’s actions and the olympics to forcibly invade and occupy a sovereign nation, their action and ours in Iraq are as different as night and day. Most people see this. Not long ago, I heard Daniel Schorr comment on Russia’s aggression as ‘so “regne change” is not the exclusive use of the US, or Bush’. Unbelievable. When you hear Buchanan and NPR’s Schorr in agreement, it’s clear that Buchanan is quite off the reservation. Even if Buchanan’s proposals arent necessarily left-wing in nature.
wise_man on August 19, 2008 at 3:35 PM
Oh I know,
upinak on Aug 19,2008 at 3:29PM.
upinak: Cool,so you’re in Vancouver,USA?
I live in Ontario,Canada.
Like Ontario,California!
canopfor on August 19, 2008 at 3:35 PM
I see you didn’t see the word permanent. And may I remind you that some of those foreign alliances were darn well in our direct interest – like the assistance provided by the French.
Dark-Star on August 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM
I hope so.
wise_man on August 19, 2008 at 3:36 PM
MSNBC, although they are probably using him the same way Putin does. As their useful idiot to paint all conservatives as.
jp on August 19, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Ummm no. Think further west, as you are thinking like a lower 48er. I am in Alaska. Say my name outloud.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 3:37 PM
Don’t understand. Russian collapse during WWI? What are you saying about Azerbaijhan?
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 3:37 PM
In what year? What should Russia own?
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 3:38 PM
or influence?
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 3:39 PM
Good grief, even William F. Buckley called out Buchanan as an anti-Semite years ago. He has also always had an affinity for strongman governments. He doesn’t really like democracy very much, since it didn’t work for him despite his obvious superiority as a human. But fundamentally, he is simply an isolationist and a pure America Firster. He opposes almost all U.S. foreign aid, free trade, and defense alliances.
rockmom on August 19, 2008 at 3:39 PM
She is thinking the Russian Empire…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijan
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 3:40 PM
That’s what I thought. So what point was she making about Azerbaijahn’s freedom since it was only a few years at that point in time?
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 3:42 PM
That’s pretty strong meat
pseudonominus on August 19, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Well, I think that we can probably rule out Buchanan as either McCain’s or Obama’s VP pick. Buchanan seems to have done an outstanding job of auditioning to be Tsar Putin’s propaganda minister however, so I think that he is probably the front runner there and that job probably pays more anyway.
I understand the situation. Pat Buchanan’s cranial blood supply system is inadequate to maintain him in a serious action such as I could put to him. He has loons in his tunes and bats in his belfry — that’s his cranial blood supply system. He could probably maintain himself in the type of fighting I could give him for five minutes. After that it would make no difference how many million words he has. [updated]
- George S. Patton
MB4 on August 19, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Ummmmm no.
upinak on Aug 19,2008 at 3:37PM.
upinak:Ohhh,any further west,and you’ll be in the drink!
So your in Alaska,on a little island,off of Alaska,
forgive me,we might be havin “a failure to commun-
icate”! haha:)
canopfor on August 19, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Very well said, AP…My favorite comments: “It’s the second strand that carries the distinctive Buchanan odor.”
(My explanation would be that ol’ Pat’s gray matter is way beyond his expiration date.)
“What kind of isolationist apologizes for another country’s expansionism, anyway?”
Good question and i like your answer; I’d add that because of his ‘expiration date issue’, he’s got ‘the pip’.
I hope FNC gets the message.
Christine on August 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM
Actually the better comparison is with Central and South America in the 70′s and 80′s.
They are OUR Near Abroad, and we felt justified in forcing regime change on countries there to ensure that they were not in the Soviet sphere.
Heck, we went so far as to use American Law to go in and get the President of a country, and try him using American law, on drug charges, when he had never stepped foot in America.
The rest of the world sees actions like this through a different prism than American’s do…
Romeo13 on August 19, 2008 at 3:44 PM
Yeah, the drama is a little bit over the top, don’t you think?
wise_man on August 19, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Jia, I have been trying to find the site in vain. The closet I have is this Michael Vail blog because Putin said it about the time he tried to take the North Pole.
I am still looking… it wasn’t all that long ago.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 3:46 PM
They do that you know.
MB4 on August 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM
VDH’s latest column, for those of us that beleive in realistic Capitalism as opposed to Pat Buchanan’s 1930′s America First isolationism
jp on August 19, 2008 at 3:48 PM
Right.
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 3:48 PM
oops cut out the key part some how
jp on August 19, 2008 at 3:49 PM
-George Patton.
MB4 on Aug 19,2008 at 3:43PM.
MB4:Good day eh! I’m not sure if I gave you this?
Here’s The Famous Patton Speech.
http://www.pattonhq.com/speech.html
canopfor on August 19, 2008 at 3:50 PM
apparently thinks its okay to just let Russia/Putin continue to seize all the Oil and pipelines of the world to have us and our Liberty at his mercy.
jp on August 19, 2008 at 3:50 PM
I’m sorry. I’m not saying it clearly. I meant that when Putin said he wanted all the land back that Russia previously owned, what year was he referring to?
Then I asked you, or anyone, what should Russia own, or influence. What is our opinion of what constitutes their near abroad?
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 3:50 PM
Man, he is looking old.
RobertInAustin on August 19, 2008 at 3:54 PM
I am thinking Empire phase.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 3:56 PM
If Gillian Gibbons, the British schoolteacher, was not incarcerated somewhere in Sudan, the whole Teddy Bear called Mohamed incident would be comical. But it serves to remind us once again that fundamentalist religion and Western values do not sit together. And it rubs in that we should spend more time promoting secularism around the world and worry less about spreading democracy.
The rise of the West had much less to do with democracy than with the rise of secularism. The West’s advance was chiefly related to the decline in the influence of religion that sought the truth by “looking in” to see what God had to say, and its replacement by looking out, deriving authority from observation, experimentation and exploration.
The inconvenient truth is that the West should be exporting secularism around the world before it exports democracy. Democracy implies not just one person one vote, but no less important, that the political process proceeds by rational means, by argument, by persuasion, and is based on knowledge that is as objective, as scientific, as one can make it. The objective knowledge has to come first.
- Peter Watson
*****************************************************
Considering her [Clueless Condi] remarks about America’s “birth defect” — an egregious term for any secretary of state to use about a nation that has brought more liberty to more races, colors and creeds than any in history — I am struck anew how deeply Rice’s vision of race in America, or, perhaps, in segregated Birmingham, affects her vision of America in the wider world. It is as if Rice sees American influence as a means by which to address what she perceives as disparities of race or Third World heritage on the international level.
This would help explain her ahistorical habit of linking the civil rights movement to the Bush administration’s effort to bring democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan. Indeed, in a 2003 speech to the National Association of Black Journalists, she argued that blacks, more than others, should “reject” the “condescending” argument that some are not “ready” for freedom. “That view was wrong in 1963 in Birmingham and it’s wrong in 2003 in Baghdad,” she said. In 2006, she made a similar point. “When I look around the world and I hear people say, `Well, you know, they’re just not ready for democracy,’ it really does resonate,” Rice told CBS’s Katie Couric. “It makes me so angry because I think there are those echoes of what people once thought about black Americans.”
There’s something shockingly provincial at work here. In seeing so much of the world through an American prism of race, Rice has effectively blinded herself to historical and cultural and religious differences between Islam and the West. To put it simply, neither Baghdad nor Gaza is Birmingham. And nothing in all of history quite compares to Philadelphia.
- Diana West
MB4 on August 19, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Well, what size should it be?
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 4:02 PM
Buchanan is returning to his natural Falangist, neo – isolationist, Anglophobic, anti Semitic roots.
Hilts on August 19, 2008 at 4:03 PM
Because now and then, more then than now, what he says makes sense. That’s why.
MB4 on August 19, 2008 at 4:04 PM
Time to rev up the Hithchens/Hanson refuting WW2 revisionism again.
Lew Rockwell is also going out of his way to praise Putin, put down US as the ‘puppets’ of Georgia, etc. from someone who is supposedly “anti-war”.
jp on August 19, 2008 at 4:04 PM
aengus on August 19, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Yes we would have many more economiclly powerful countries however, they would be working towards the greater good instead of conquest.
unseen on August 19, 2008 at 4:06 PM
This is what happens when you work for MSNBC too long.
Sultry Beauty on August 19, 2008 at 4:08 PM
wouldn’t spreading the US consitution across the globe simply create lots and lots of Great Powers?
That would be wonderful. I’d sleep a lot easier if a few more nations like America entered the world stage (free, prosperous, and powerful). Hopefully India will become one someday.
It would provide us with more reliable trading partners and a safer world. It would be great to have somebody else with which to share the burden of keeping the seas safe and being on the receiving end of the jealous blame from the world’s failures.
The world definitely needs more America-like nations.
sandberg on August 19, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Its not just Islam and the West… Africa has gone from one of the most productive areas of the world, to the point of starvation… and you can directly point to Democracy as the cause.
When you can vote for the guy who says I’m gonna take whiteys productive farms from him and give them to you… when you don’t know how to farm? Of course you’re gonna vote for him…. especialy if your tribal leaders tell you to do so.
Western Representative Republics worked because they already HAD a western outlook philisophicly. We’re trying to go backwards, and it is not working…
Look at Turkey. Periodicly they have to outlaw certain political parties because the people keep voting for guys who support Sharia Law….
Pakistan is about to go the same way IMO.
Heck, America herself has got two guys running for President who will do damage to our country… but everyone is expected to vote for one or the other…
Democracys do not grant wisdom… just a sharing of responsibility to the electorate… but that only works if the electorate takes its responsibility seriously.
Romeo13 on August 19, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Someone already said it, but it bears repeating. The far right and far left aren’t polar opposites. They meet, and often find they can work together well. Hitler didn’t have to betray Stalin.
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Buchanan gets nuttier with the passage of time.
Laddy on August 19, 2008 at 4:12 PM
You poke an irritable bear with a stick and, unsurprisingly, the bear takes your head off. And now others are supposed to come in and clean up the bloody sinew? Please.
paul006 on August 19, 2008 at 4:13 PM
LOL a size 6…
Actually the old russian empire was large. But needing money and so on.. sold Alaska for 1/100 of what Alaska is worth. They couldn’t get to Alaska well, so it wasn’t a sacrifice so to speak. It doesn’t have a older map.. but wiki seems to have the best one at this time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LocationRussianEmpire1914.png
though this is a nice one. http://bell.lib.umn.edu/historical/hmap2.html
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 4:13 PM
I skimmed the article so I might have missed it, but did Buchanan find a way to blame the Jews? If not, I’d say that someone else wrote the article. Either that, or he’s going to write a followup article. I guess you there aren’t enough inches to get your anti-Semitism in print every day.
Physics Geek on August 19, 2008 at 4:14 PM
Ataturk understood islam. The secular military of Turkey is constitutionally charged with the responsibility of regulating islamic representation in government. This is something that many in the West choose to ignore, as it is the best example of islam existing in near-Western style, even though no Westerner would accept to living in a country ultimately ruled by the military, by design.
The problem is that the military, itself, is a large part of the problem in Pakistan. The military in Turkey has always been extremely secular.
progressoverpeace on August 19, 2008 at 4:16 PM
I sincerely hope that Bill Kristol doesn’t linger at the New York Times too long.
wise_man on August 19, 2008 at 4:16 PM
You mean from nationalism back to a form of tribalism?
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 4:21 PM
unseen and sandberg,
I think you are both a little too taken with the universalist aspects of the US Constitution. Though the particularism of the US (its Christianity, its historic culture frontier spirit etc.) was assumed to be stable and permanent and hence not written down it was surely essential to America’s rise.
aengus on August 19, 2008 at 4:22 PM
Jai, I decided to research more on maps… and check this out.
http://www.davidrumsey.com/detail?id=1-1-24782-950046&name=Russische+Reich.
Alaska was bought from Russia in 1867. Look at the date on the Map then zoom in and look at the colors (they are in german). This map is dated 1855, why is Alaska in yellow and under the guise of American Campaine?
And check the borders of the Russian Empire and the German Reich. VERY ODD! Makes me wonder about history.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 4:27 PM
Pat usually comes over as an idiot. However, in this case he is totally correct. The US has pushed the envelope (ie Kosovo) and you get what you pay for.
duff65 on August 19, 2008 at 4:28 PM
The Ottoman Empire was a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-linguistic, multi-religious one, along the lines of the Austro-Hungarians. There wasn’t the great sense of the Turkic people then as in modern Turkey. It’s glue was Islam and the Sultanate, not nationalism. Following WWI, when the Ottomans bet on the losing side, and the empire was invaded and dismembered, Ataturk understood that a new glue of Turkish ethnicity and Turkish majority was necessary to both create and save the new nation. So Islam was suppressed as a political force. But like Shia/Sunni struggle in Iraq, or Georgian/Russian conflict in the Caucuses, or Muslim/Orthodox conflict in the Balkans, or US/Mexican conflict in the SW, suppressed doesn’t mean eliminated. Their are fault lines and they can and do erupt again.
Turkey has been an economic success. The secular elites in Instanbul no longer can control the still religious, but now more affluent and influential people from the countryside, for whom Islam never died. I doubt Turkey will again be as secular as it has been for the past 75 years.
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 4:30 PM
Nice to see Pat Buchanan is upsetting the right people again.
alphie on August 19, 2008 at 4:31 PM
And yet Reagan never wanted to fight against the USSR to force them to do it. Reagan never implied that if Gorbachev didn’t tear down the wall, he’d use the US Military to do it.
Well said Romeo13 on August 19, 2008 at 4:16 PM.
ThackerAgency on August 19, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Sorry! My fault! It was me.
Oops!
Mazztek on August 19, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Reagan did fight them and he did use the US military.
basic history, we armed the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets. all the Central America stuff, Greneda, etc.
Reagan bragged that Communism didn’t exapand an inch under him…and its because of his very “interventionist” Foreign Policy and resolute stance.
jp on August 19, 2008 at 4:40 PM
Well described, Dad. Turkey’s military looks like it’s going to be getting the call again, soon. I’m not so sure how that’s going to turn out. You might be right.
progressoverpeace on August 19, 2008 at 4:41 PM
sounds about right, and back to the 1930′s disastrous period
jp on August 19, 2008 at 4:42 PM
Reagan won the cold war without firing a shot. His advisors wanted him to take that line of the speech out.
Jimmy Carter would never in his wildest dreams have ever stood up to the russians. That’s the difference. Sometimes you don’t have to fight to get what you want. But if you don’t say what you want in the first place, you’ll never get it.
wise_man on August 19, 2008 at 4:42 PM
don’t forget the Defense/Arms buildup as well, something Libertarians and leftist also oppossed and criticize to this day.
Reagan won the Cold War Militarily as much as any other way.
jp on August 19, 2008 at 4:43 PM
The Russians aren’t Commies anymore, jp.
They’re more like neocons with intelligence and a sense of proportion.
alphie on August 19, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Cuba, Grenada, Panama, Nicaragua, etc.== our near abroad.
Afghanistan–arm the resistance.
Georgia?
JiangxiDad on August 19, 2008 at 4:45 PM
Buchanan should sit in a quiet room with Murtha, Reid, Kennedy, Bryd, etc……. and listen to themselves talk.
No one else wants to hear it, see it, or waste a nanosecond of time thinking………. “…wait a minute, this guy is totally insane!”
Last I checked, he is not privy to the National Security Data that lists all the facts of this situation……. so until he does, why doesn’t he shut that hole in his face?
Seven Percent Solution on August 19, 2008 at 4:47 PM
It’s official: Pat done lost his mind and joined Ron Paul at the top of the wingnut Pyramid o’ Power.
Give him time. He’ll start “just asking questions” soon enough.
SuperCool on August 19, 2008 at 4:48 PM
I am certain that Reagan’s legacy is that he will be whatever any Republican wants him to be. But he wasn’t in favor of militarizing Georgia and former (at that time current) Soviet states like the war mongers here are now.
Reagan would have considered it folly (of course I’m using the tactic that everyone here does when talking about Reagan – putting words and ideas in his mouth).
I’m glad we got into WWII after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.
ThackerAgency on August 19, 2008 at 4:48 PM
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