Obama: Gee, a single-payer health-care system would be sweet
posted at 10:36 am on August 19, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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If Barack Obama had his druthers, he told an Albuquerque audience yesterday, he’d have a single-payer system for managing health care. Unfortunately, the transition would throw a lot of HMO employees out of work, so Obama says we have to fix the present system instead. Or, perhaps, just first:
Barack Obama said he would consider embracing a single-payer health-care system, beloved by liberals, as his plan for broader coverage evolves over time.
“If I were designing a system from scratch, I would probably go ahead with a single-payer system,” Obama told some 1,800 people at a town-hall style meeting on the economy. …
“Given that a lot of people work for insurance companies, a lot of people work for HMOs. You’ve got a whole system of institutions that have been set up,” he said at a roundtable discussion with women Monday morning after a voter asked, “Why not single payer?”
Can we breathe easier, knowing Obama doesn’t want to overthrow the American system of medicine? Not really:
“People don’t have time to wait,” Obama said. “They need relief now. So my attitude is let’s build up the system we got, let’s make it more efficient, we may be over time—as we make the system more efficient and everybody’s covered—decide that there are other ways for us to provide care more effectively.”
“Other ways”, huh? Perhaps Obama means that a better use of free-market principles for routine health care, using pre-tax HSAs and insurance for catastrophic coverage would force providers to compete as they do in non-covered elective medicine such as cosmetic surgery. Maybe he means that reducing government mandates and reining in malpractice awards could assist in lowering the overall cost of medicine to insurers and consumers.
But I rather doubt it.
I’m not sure what success anyone can find from socialist policies that continues to encourage visions of government-run Utopias, but all of the evidence runs to the contrary. Even the architect of Canada’s government monopoly on health care now advocates for private-sector providers. The UK’s NHS has horror stories galore about lack of responsiveness and capacity for both medical and dental care. In the US, one need only look at the VA to see how well a single-payer system would operate.
And yet, Barack Obama still thinks that Utopia can be realized through government-run societies.
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Gee, after all it works so wonderfully in other countries. NOT!
Sekhmet on August 19, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Why not? Universal health care has worked out so well everywhere else, right? So has Communism, let’s just dive on in to the deep end.
Grafted on August 19, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Nope, simpler than your viewpoint…
He was simply playing to the crowd. He was telling them what they wanted to hear… which is what he always does.
We simply have NO idea what this guy really thinks, because he changes his rhetoric depending on his audience.
Romeo13 on August 19, 2008 at 10:40 AM
The more he speaks, the more he reveals his true self.
MarkTheGreat on August 19, 2008 at 10:40 AM
I love how the right mixed free market and health care.
It feels like you pick your doctor like your pick your plasma tv. It feels like you shop around for coverage like you shop around for a digital camera.
It might be time to recognize that our system is broken and the free market can’t do much to help there.
mycowardice on August 19, 2008 at 10:42 AM
Given all the complaints out there about how insurance companies ration health care in order to reduce costs, is anyone out there actually stupid enough to believe that the govt would not also ration health care in order to reduce costs. The only difference being, once the govt is the sole insurer, where else would you go when denied coverage.
Hmm, I see a lot of hands going up on the left side of the aisle.
MarkTheGreat on August 19, 2008 at 10:43 AM
How can the free market help or hurt health care delivery, when the govt won’t permit it near the health care industry?
MarkTheGreat on August 19, 2008 at 10:45 AM
This really disagrees Biden’s position. How will the two work that through? Will Biden go through a “conversion” to the Messiah’s way of thinking?
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on August 19, 2008 at 10:45 AM
I have an important question I hope someone above my pay grade can answer. What has happened to the quality of medical research in countries where the government has taken over health care? I know that health care itself tends to get worse, but what about medical research?
I ask because my 13 year old son was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes last month, and its tempting to want help paying for all the meds every month, but I’d sure as hell rather not dismantle the incredible research system America has that is working for a cure. I am terrified at that thought. America leads the world in research, and nothing is more important.
redshirt on August 19, 2008 at 10:45 AM
Why? Our closest example of socialized health care is Canada, and Canadians end up coming across the border to have procedures done and to receive treatments.
amerpundit on August 19, 2008 at 10:46 AM
You guys are missing the point. This won’t be like England or Canada or even the VA. Once Obama is President, the sick will simply line up and the Messiah will lay hands upon them, curing cancer, regrowing limbs and even cleaning the wax out of their ears. Why do you stand in the way of the Lightworker, racists?
trubble on August 19, 2008 at 10:48 AM
There’s a reason why most new medical discoveries and new medicine’s come from America and American companies.
MarkTheGreat on August 19, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Here’s some lovely news about the Britain’s NHS.
Ageism ‘Rife’ Within Hospitals
‘End postcode lottery health care’
Yeah. Good idea, Barry.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on August 19, 2008 at 10:51 AM
What in the world does this guy know about providing health care? Besides the fact that your wife clears $300K a year as a “Diversity Coordinator” at a hospital that just happened to benefit from the tax dollars you shoved its way?
Obama knows NOTHING about the provision of health care.
Supposedly though, this guy is a hot-shot attorney.
What did he do about reforming our FUBAR’ed “legal” system for the few short moments he took a stroll through the Capitol?
Fix the legal system, Barry and then we’ll let you expand into areas in which you know absolutely nothing about.
NoDonkey on August 19, 2008 at 10:52 AM
Here’s an article he should read:
NHS rationing is a reality we should deal with, Times Online last week.
Quisp on August 19, 2008 at 10:53 AM
Why will we even need health care? Won’t our Messiah simply heal all once and for all? We can then move on to more urgent business like killing as many babies as possible…
sabbott on August 19, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Does this include MASSATOOSITS?
Maybe Bill Ayers can head up the investigatory committee, he and Barry managed to pi$$ away 50 mil, why not make that a capital B for billions…
benrand on August 19, 2008 at 10:56 AM
Well, in being a Canadian nurse who has worked in hospitals (both countries), for Medicare, and now for the evil health insurance company, the quality of medical research goes down to nothing. The majority of cutting edge medical research happens in America (and Israel) where there is an impetus for medical researchers to discover new things (because then they get patents and money). Most of the medical systems without that motivation follow along after the research is done simply because the MD’s, etc do not have the motivation to come up with new medical innovation.
Which is also why people come to America if there’s some really weirdo disease they have and no treatments anywhere else.
mjk on August 19, 2008 at 10:58 AM
P.S. Thanks, Messiah, for advocating my losing my job. Appreciate that, baby!
mjk on August 19, 2008 at 10:58 AM
It might be time to recognize that our system is broken and the free market can’t do much to help there.
mycowardice on August 19, 2008 at 10:42 AM
And if it were “unbroken” what it would look like?
There are some Americans who go without food, is our nutrition system broken too?
Bishop on August 19, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Pretty convenient system for the Canadians too, knowing that high-quality alternatives are just across the border in the United States.
Bishop on August 19, 2008 at 11:00 AM
America cannot afford this socialist BS.
CP on August 19, 2008 at 11:01 AM
This is consistent with Obama’s record going back to 1996. It tells you his impulse is the socialist solution to things, even as that model fails in Canada and elsewhere. The rest is just an admission that he could never get single-payer through even a Democratic Congress.
Karl on August 19, 2008 at 11:02 AM
There are some Americans who go without food, is our nutrition system broken too?
Bishop on August 19, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Huh? Where are the starving Americans?
bridgetown on August 19, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Gee. The last time I checked, these baby-mammas don’t have any trouble getting their kids delivered – ON OUR DIME!
marklmail on August 19, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Well, sweetie, you can be in Canada where you basically get the doctor you get. You could have my doctor who suggested that I get lucky more to treat my “female” problems. You could be in line for 16 months for a hip replacement like my Grandpa or in line for 3 years for a knee replacement like my uncle. You could have a doctor tell you anything he wants because he knows that you can’t get him fired. Ever.
Or you could work for Medicare and see how well that government run system has worked thus far. Translation: Not well at all.
mjk on August 19, 2008 at 11:06 AM
Nuts.
Health care is a limited resource. Sure, we *may* be able to hit on a way to ration it out more equitably than “do you have ca$h?”, but that’s worked pretty damn well as a proxy for “are you a worthy cause to treat?”.
Besides, it’s not like we’re actually *not* treating people – except, you know, in places where the hospitals have gone bankrupt and closed, or the doctors have fled due to malpractice insurance costs.
We need to get gov’t *out* of health care, not bring more in!
Government is the *least* efficient way to do *anything*!
Hope McCain has the two brain cells needed to *use* this gaffe!
Mew
acat on August 19, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Read The Cure. The system is broken precisely because government has its hand in it. The government got into it during WWII and has only been tightening their grip ever since.
Kafir on August 19, 2008 at 11:11 AM
I totally believe that. Does anyone recall reading any books or articles that address this issue? Or perhaps could someone give me Mark Steyn’s phone number so that I could call him and ask him myself? (I wish!)
redshirt on August 19, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Prediction: His Holiness calls for a $1000 rebate (windfall profits tax) on big pharmaceutical to offset rising health care costs………….same as he is proposing from big oil
Maybe this is where he will get his inspiration.
Health chief attacks drug giants over huge profits
Oh, it’s coming. I can see it now.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on August 19, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Obama has a simple template for government run health care – just copy the wild success of our public “schools”.
The “best” public schools are inevitably in districts controlled by Democrat Party machine politicians, where upwards of 50% of the students eventually graduate. And some can even read at age 18!
Send your tax dollars to Barack and he promises to do for health care what Democrats have done for inner city public schools.
And if you’re given a band-aid for a skull fracture, from a “doctor” you can’t understand and who got his degree in Indonesia, Barack will tell you that it’s all because those evil Republicans have underfunded health care.
NoDonkey on August 19, 2008 at 11:18 AM
“I am a leaf on the wind. Watch me soar.” So says the ship’s pilot in the movie “Serenity”. The Captian asks what it means and then they crash. BO is truly a leaf on the wind going where the wind blows. Lets hope it blows him to failure this November.
jmarcure on August 19, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Also, say buh-bye to biotechnology. No company will want to stay in the United States. Biotech jobs will move to places like, say, India or Mexico. My wife works at a big pharma, and her company has mandated some outsourcing. Her group has outsourced to a company in India. She complains constantly because this company in India is full of incompetent scientists, and she ends up doing the majority of the work anyway.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on August 19, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Simply put: He wants a cradle to grave society.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on August 19, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Or at Medicare or Medicaid — both rife with corruption and incompetence.
But somehow, Barry O is going to magically re-make our government bureaucracy into an effective and efficient single-payer system, overseeing the medical needs of over 300 million people. Never mind all those other countries whose government-run health care systems are failures, and never mind that our own government has already demonstrated its incompetence in running health care programs. The solution to every problem in this country is to increase the size and reach of our already-bloated federal government, and then increase taxes to pay for the increased size of government, right Barry? What a great plan. No wonder your Kool-Aid drinking followers think you’re so brilliant.
AZCoyote on August 19, 2008 at 11:22 AM
I just don’t understand when Healthcare Insurance became a right and something people couldn’t do without. I remember when it was a “benefit” offered by companies to attract people. Now it has become either a “right” or mandatory not to have like it is in MA.
jmarcure on August 19, 2008 at 11:25 AM
If you want to see a good movie with Canadian vs. US health care as the background, rent The Barbarian Invasions. An old lefty sings the praises of…the US system.
My brother in IL is still trying to find Obama’s health care system for the uninsured. He’s diabetic and no insurance. After three years, he gave up and gets great care from the pay-what-you-can clinic at the local hospital. Private industry solutions.
PattyJ on August 19, 2008 at 11:27 AM
Ed hit the nail on the head in the first paragraph. If you have a single payer system there is no need for all of the private health insurance companies. There is another side to this also. If there is government mandated heatlh insurance you can bet your sweet bippy that they will tax your pay check to pay for it, whther you wish to participate or not. If you are satisfied with your private insurance and want to keep it you will be in effect paying for two health insurance policies. In these times of tough economic conditions I don’t know of too many people who can afford the luxury of paying for 2 health insurance premiums. Now obviously you won’t be able to opt out of the government plan, who will pay for the poor and it’s only fair, so more then likely you will drop the personal one you have to make ends meet. The more people who drop their private plans, the more of the private companies go out of business and wind up laying people off.
One way they bleed the industry to death slowly, and the other way they just dump on the street. I think the Dems will go with the slow bleed plan since it is the one they always favor. But there is nothing aying you are safe from the Republicans in regards to this either.
Just A Grunt on August 19, 2008 at 11:32 AM
The story of the Obonzo campaign…And, what would happen if he were to be elected:
Paralysis by Analysis
--Dick Morris
franksalterego on August 19, 2008 at 11:34 AM
Huh? Where are the starving Americans?
bridgetown on August 19, 2008 at 11:04 AM
You obviously haven’t seen the lines of people outside missions or soup kitchens. I think we need to “fix” our broken nutritional system and let the government handle food distribution.
Line up for your daily soy wafer, and if you see guys wearing football pads and driving front-end loaders, run for it.
Bishop on August 19, 2008 at 11:39 AM
fixed it for ya!
redshirt on August 19, 2008 at 11:44 AM
Yup, though there is also a tasty soylent yellow wafer to be had, though I hear they are a bit more spicy than the green version.
Bishop on August 19, 2008 at 11:46 AM
Here’s what an “unbroken” health care system would look like, as recommended by my father who is a retired physician and worked for 35 years in an unbroken system:
1. Eliminate Medicare; Social Security benefits are increased for low-income seniors so they can pay premiums for private health insurance. Non-poor seniors pay for health insurance just like everyone else. Insurers cannot reject coverage for any senior.
2. Eliminate Medicaid; provide 100% tax credit for hospitals and doctors to treat indigent patients.
3. Cap malpractice awards and prohibit contingency suits for malpractice. Establish automatic schedule of payments for medical errors not due to malpractice. Revoke medical license upon second conviction of malpractice.
4. Tax the hell out of all medical advertising to pay for the above.
5. Require health insurers to offer at least four levels of coverage so that well people can afford a basic policy and sick people can get insured.
6. Encourage nonprofit organizations to open free and low-cost health clinics and “healthmobiles” in inner cities and rural areas to treat routine non-emergency problems. Forgive student loan debt for doctors and nurses who agree to work for at least 5 years in such clinics. Allow other doctors and nurses to take a tax deduction for hours worked “pro bono” in such clinics.
7. Future settlements on things like asbestos must go into a special government fund for care of victims. No huge contingency fees to lawyers.
rockmom on August 19, 2008 at 11:51 AM
Rockmom, could we also have a fining system against lawyers who bring frivolous malpractice suits, or perhaps a cap on how much a lawyer can make no matter the award sought?
Bishop on August 19, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Rockmom for Secretary of health and human services!
redshirt on August 19, 2008 at 11:55 AM
Torte reform. Everytime the Repubs propose it, the Dumbocrats shoot it down.
Remember this quote,
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on August 19, 2008 at 12:08 PM
rockmom,
That’s a far too logical system. Boo to you!
:)
Seriously, that sounds good to me.
mjk on August 19, 2008 at 12:43 PM
Now that Obama has promised to not go to single payer, it might be a good time to sell insurance and drug stocks short.
snaggletoothie on August 19, 2008 at 1:02 PM
The One is playing on the ignorance of average Americans. Not enough of us understand that there are “shining” examples of the failures of nationalized or single-payer health care that show the exact opposite of what politicians are promising.
Wildcatter1980 on August 19, 2008 at 1:11 PM
I came from a country with universal healthcare (that was more than 23 years ago). Taiwan, which at least has the money to afford it.
Even when I was there, the system was already ’somewhat’ broken. It started out with families of patients gave some money to surgeons and doctors as a way of thanking them for the care, progressed to the bribe money before the surgery, then onto the ‘administratives’ for scheduling the surgery (ahead of other patients). And if you are ’special’(wink wink, RICH), you can have VIP treatments: you have direct access to the better doctors.
And Taiwan is a small country. I just don’t see how US will handle the true universal healthcare.
Sir Napsalot on August 19, 2008 at 1:15 PM
If the single payer refuses to pay for your disease, where do you go for treatment? To a cemetery as a daisy-pusher?
I worked in France for 10 years, where they have a government-funded health insurance system (called Social Security, but it’s health insurance, not retirement) which pays 30-60% of most medical expenses, and money is withheld from people’s paychecks (proportional to income) to fund it. Most people subscribe to “mutuelle” (private insurance) to cover remaining expenses, generally at a fixed price per person. Although Social Security and “mutuelle” paid about equal benefits, Social Security cost me four times more at the time (1985-95).
If Obama imposes single-payer health insurance on America, we should logically expect costs to quadruple. No thanks!!!
Steve Z on August 19, 2008 at 1:19 PM
“And if you are ’special’(wink wink, RICH), you can have VIP treatments: you have direct access to the better doctors.”
And who’s “special in this country”?
Why Democrat politicians and their well-heeled doners.
Who of course will use a separate, but equal, gold-plated system.
Sort of like how Democrats extol public schools, while sending their precious offspring to private schools.
Democrats – Because they’re more equal than you are.
NoDonkey on August 19, 2008 at 1:25 PM
So basically people in Canada have an exit strategy when the system in Canada fails. Most of the time, people stay there because they don’t need to come over, and EVERYONE is insured, but in some cases they just come here and pay to get service.
In our case, you can always pay (just like the Canadians who come here), but for the routine stuff, millions of people have no coverage. And those same people end up going to the emergency room and they can, among other solutions, go bankrupt or send the bill to the rest of us. Looks like it’s better to be Canadian.
Canadians also pay their drugs cheaper. We end up subsidizing the rest of the world by paying inflated (in relation to others) prices for medication.
It would look like everyone getting a decent insurance and the possibility of jumping the line to those who can afford it.
As for our nutrition system, if some Americans go without food, I would love to know what can we do to ensure they have food. Somehow it doesn’t make me happy to know that they go without food. We spend so much money on health care, we can clearly do a better job there.
And please, could we have numbers on how much malpractice insurance costs as a percentage of all medical spendings?
mycowardice on August 19, 2008 at 2:50 PM
I’ve seen estimates run to 5-6% of a practice’s gross revenues.
It’s not just the premium payment as part of a practice’s overhead costs — it’s the defensive medicine that the threat of malpractice produces. 2 distinct phenomena.
DrSteve on August 19, 2008 at 3:25 PM
He’s talking about nationalizing the insurance agencies and HMOs. Simply converting them to bureaucracies. And Since they don’t need to worry about pesky profits they can add more people to the rolls.
- The Cat
MirCat on August 19, 2008 at 5:07 PM
redshirt:
I have been working in pharmaceutical research for over 20 years as a medicinal chemist. The research system in this country completely blows. Research is about making money, not saving lives. 80% of my career has not been spent doing research on making novel drugs, but making me-too drugs in order to capture a segment of the market. Say company A makes drug A. Company B will work for years tweaking Drug A in such a way to get around company A’s patent, and come up with a drug that is nearly identical to drug A. Then they’ll spend hundreds of millions in development to get the drug through the FDA, spend tens of millions more paying hundreds of salesman to sell the drug, and the public ends up with a drug that is nearly identical to the original. But company B has a better sales force, and can maybe capture 60% of Company A’s market. It’s all a complete joke. If you took all the money the pharmaceutical industry wastes on making identical drugs and doing identical research, and all the money they waste on sales forces, and put that money into making novel drugs, things would be immeasurably better. I’ve been collecting a salary for over 20 years and have only worked on one project that even made it into the clinic! It’s one big giant scam. Splitting research into dozens of compannies and have all the companies do the same thing is a joke.
Guess who does all the real research that does get done in this country. Universities. The damned socialist organizations.
dave742 on August 19, 2008 at 6:51 PM
Steve Z:
Health care in the US has been shown by countless studies to be by far the most expensive in the world. According to the OECD, France pays a total of $3,038 per person, and the US pays $5,711 per person. If Obama imposes single-payer health insurance on America, we should logically expect costs to fall by 47%.
dave742 on August 19, 2008 at 7:05 PM
Dave, thanks for the answer, although I’m not so sure what to make of it. I’m not sure the drug comapnies are the ones doing the diabetes research, specifically relating to beta cell regeneration or stopping the process of their destruction, but the question still stands. How would socialized medicine effect the drug companies? How would a single payer system change what you do or the way the companies operate? Right now the best and brightest usually go where the money is. I assume salaries would go down, thus discouraging some from entering the fields. Not to sound cynical, but rarely are the smartest motivated by low pay and hard work.
Also the comaprison to France isn’t necessarily accurate. In the US doctors are compelled to perform every medical test they can in order to avoid malpractice, driving per patient cost up. If doctors malpractice premiums weren’t so high, and doctors only did the tests they felt necessary, costs would go down quite a bit. Also, how available is medical care in France? Do they suffer the long diagnostic wait times that Canada and the UK have?
Lastly, can you tell me just one time that the government get involved and things actually improved? (somewhat tongue in cheek!)
redshirt on August 19, 2008 at 7:50 PM
Maybe in this instance, Obama is talking about the HMOs and health insurance industry.
But I am pretty sure the Dems also have a universal healthcare plan to cover everybody.
dave742,
Name the drugs and real research created by these socialist haven Universities.
Sir Napsalot on August 19, 2008 at 9:54 PM
Why do the G*d damn socialist/Marxist Democrats want to force this failed Canadian health care crap down our throats? WHY???
The dems came up with Social Security, then slowly took it apart by stealing the funds (L. Johnson), include illegal aliens in the plan ( J. Carter), and lastly, taxing it (B. Clinton). They couldn’t keep their promises then, so why should Americans believe them now. Just look at the cost of gasoline, which show, the Democrats can’t be trusted to govern!
byteshredder on August 19, 2008 at 10:38 PM
redshirt:
I am a chemist, and not a biologist. I don’t know anything about beta cell regeneration, but I did work on a PTP1b inhibitor at a pharma company, which is involved in beta cell regulation. Also, charities like JDRF are funding many companies for beta cell regeneration research:
(jdrf.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewPage&page_id=BEC026ED-1279-CFD5-A7264286A9ACC4BC)
I don’t think it would affect drug companies as much as other areas of health care. Pharmaceuticals account for only 7 percent of the health care dollar. Hospitals would be affected more. They might not be able to charge $13 to give you a Tylenol. I am sure it would cut into Pharma profits, though. Pharma companies might have to reduce the size of their sales forces or stop working on me-too drugs and instead be forced to pursue innovative medicines that they can demand a large profit for even in a managed system. They also might not be able to rip off patients like they do in our present system, because a managed system would not allow it (see the last paragraph of my post here on May 13, 2007 11:10 AM for the Avastin/Lucentis situation).
I don’t think it would affect this at all. I could work in a pharma company in Sweden or Germany or Switzerland and make the same amount of money, or more. They don’t have our wonderful free health care system.
Why don’t you ask about wait times in the US? I guess you assume that ours are the best. Actually, it’s hard to tell, because “there is no systemized collection of data on wait times in the U.S.” Europe keeps very detailed data on wait times. It’s funny that the US doesn’t. Why wouldn’t they want to advertise their superiority? Anyway, according to this article, the wait times in the UK are very low. The wait times in the US were only better than those in Canada.
I think they do a good job of delivering a letter across the country for only 42 cents.
Sir Napsalot:
All basic research is done at Universities, upon which all drug discoveries are based. This is the most labor intencive and critical part of research. Universities start many projects. Once they get somewhere they are sold to pharma companies who tweak the lead compound and put it into the clinic. Basically, Universities do the work until it is clear that money can be made from the project, at which point the pharma companies take over. There are also many partnerships between pharma and Universities. One project I worked on was started by the University of Pittsburgh, then we worked on it with them after they had devolped it to an advanced stage.
dave742 on August 19, 2008 at 11:15 PM
You got me there!
BTW My son is going to be the endocrinologist that defeats diabetes.
You read it here first.
redshirt on August 20, 2008 at 12:32 AM
Yea, but they seem to not be avoiding the red ink:
The agency said its fiscal 2008 year-to-date net loss totals $1.13 billion after nearly breaking even in the first two quarters.
electric-rascal on August 20, 2008 at 5:18 AM
redshirt:
Despite my disgust with the way my industry operates, we do manage to get some things done in spite of the mangled process. I hope we can help your son make some progress soon.
dave742 on August 20, 2008 at 8:09 AM
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