Now this is controversy!
posted at 2:07 pm on August 19, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Jay Nordlinger knows how to provoke a rapid response. Don’t make an argument on politics or religion — accuse people of mispronunciation. Nordlinger claims that the standard American pronunciation of forte should sound exactly like the fort in Fort Knox, not for-TAY, as most pronounce the word meaning a strength or specialty:
On the subject of words, someone wrote me the other day to say, “I’ve always pronounced the English word ‘forte’ — meaning strength or expertise — ‘fort.’ But people deride me for it.” That’s because they’re ignorant (and if they deride, mean, too). I have addressed this topic before, and it’s an evergreen one. “Forte” meaning strength or expertise is pronounced “fort.” “Forte” meaning loud in music is pronounced “fortay.” (The one word we borrow from French, the other from Italian.)
Allow me to stoke this controversy by vehemently (but politely) disagreeing. First, forte in Italian primarily means “strong”, even musically. Piano means “soft”, not quiet, and mezzo-forte means moderately strong, not primarily moderately loud. The terms relate to how the music is played by the musician more than the volume control, which is admittedly a subtle distinction. At least, that’s how I learned it when studying music in my childhood, and the Collier’s dictionary supports the interpretation of my music instructors.
The French Connection doesn’t work, either. Fort in French is a masculine noun, which means that its pronunciation matches the English for, not fort. The ‘t’ would only get pronounced in French if followed by an ‘e’, which does not happen in the noun version of the word, which is the application here. It only gets put in feminine form when used as an adjective modifying a feminine noun; otherwise, the word is fort and pronounced for. The spelling of the word forte comes from the Italian and not the French, and therefore the Italian pronunciation should follow.
Oh, and fort in French can also mean “loud”, in the exact same context as forte in Italian.
I eagerly await Nordlinger’s rebuttal. Forget tax policy — this could get much uglier.
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I’ve always heard “forte” pronounced as “fortay”. As in area of expertise.
Never heard it pronouned “fort”.
tickleddragon on August 19, 2008 at 2:11 PM
Am I supposed to care?
rbb on August 19, 2008 at 2:12 PM
Are you kidding me?
Ed, nice Piano… did it say who was the owner and maker perhaps?
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 2:13 PM
Sorry, linguistics is not my… forte?
Romeo13 on August 19, 2008 at 2:13 PM
I remember this “controversy” from awhile back. Hows about we deduce why the Brits say “aluminium” for “aluminum”.
Oh, and, Ed, the picture is of an, ahem, harpsichord.
MB007 on August 19, 2008 at 2:13 PM
All part of the Hotair.com buffet. Pick out what ya like and move down the line, you’re blocking the soup.
Meric1837 on August 19, 2008 at 2:14 PM
O-Tay.
EJDolbow on August 19, 2008 at 2:15 PM
Forget this nonsense. I’m gonna hang out in my tree fortay.
Coronagold on August 19, 2008 at 2:15 PM
there totally wrong in they’re assumptions their.
kirkill on August 19, 2008 at 2:15 PM
What?
DaveS on August 19, 2008 at 2:16 PM
could be either a harpsichord or a pencil piano. Steinway built one like that, I think they made 5 models. I was lucky enough to see one.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 2:16 PM
Ed,
In grad school (MA in English, Rhetoric and Composition) I struggled with this one, too. From what I’ve seen it is supposed to be pronounced “fort” but social acceptance has allowed for “fortay.” Personally I don’t care, as long as we’re all saying it the same way.
Apparently NOOK-yoo-ler (nuclear) is rapidly and sadly approaching acceptance.
macummings on August 19, 2008 at 2:17 PM
Hey…finally an inverse argument!
I guess we’re moving on from potato or potatoe (sounds the same with or with the “e”) to “fort” or “for-tay” (spelled the same with different sounds).
Man, “e” is one weerd letter (or is that “weird”), and is gaining a reputation as an election distraction.
BobMbx on August 19, 2008 at 2:17 PM
It’s apparently pronounced both ways. The first pronunciation from Webster does, in fact, pronounce it as “fort”.
amerpundit on August 19, 2008 at 2:17 PM
So has the pronunciation evolved over time, or has it always been designed a certain way.
Just trying to stir up the hornet’s nest a bit more.
rbj on August 19, 2008 at 2:17 PM
This debate was actually covered in the old sitcom “Unhappily Ever After” with the beautiful Nikki Cox. The whole episode revolved around who was smarter…her or the new kid. The final blow was that Forte was actually pronounced “fort”. How can you argue with a sitcom featuring a talking stuffed bunny?
badpenguin on August 19, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Any thoughts on “foyer”?
I’m always sheepish about telling guests where to leave their shoes.
yo on August 19, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Sorry. Emphasis on the YOO
macummings on August 19, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Lord have mercy, of all the things to get that upset about! Does Nordlinger really have that little to do?
jdsmith0021 on August 19, 2008 at 2:19 PM
Whats a Henway?
Oh, ’bout 5 pounds.
BobMbx on August 19, 2008 at 2:19 PM
“By the front door.”
macummings on August 19, 2008 at 2:19 PM
“It’s a trap!”
Ed, you should have checked webster.com before wading into these waters. It would have been even more delicious if you would have said in the post: “I bow to no one when it comes to foreign pronunciations.”
Leopold Stotch on August 19, 2008 at 2:19 PM
White people love criticizing grammar.
lorien1973 on August 19, 2008 at 2:20 PM
I’m always amused by people with their pet pronunciations of particular words.
Let’s assume for a minute that he’s 100% correct about where the word comes from and how it used to be pronounced. Is he then willing to begin pronouncing the ‘k’ in “knee” (i.e. kuh-nay), start talking about “sway-ord” fighting instead of “sord” (sword) fighting, talking about how someone “laf-id” instead of “lafd” (laughed) and using the word “silly” as it was originally intended (i.e. “holy”/”innocent”)?
Though, if you’re going that far, why just go back to middle/old English? Perhaps we should revert back to proto-IndoEuropean? Or to a super language beyond that?
Why get bogged down and focus on one word when there are thousands (if not millions) of changes in English alone that you can drive yourself crazy with?
JadeNYU on August 19, 2008 at 2:21 PM
It’d be a whole lot easier to say “that’s not my strong point.”
Unless you are trying to impress that freshman girl in your Musicology 101 class you need to pass to graduate at the end of term.
And when playing the
softpiano just run with the Italian pronunciation. “All them words up above those little lines with the funny marks and flags and stuff on them, they’s all Eyetalian words.”Oh, the grief our god doth give us…
coldwarrior on August 19, 2008 at 2:21 PM
I still can’t get my head wrapped around Colonel.
badpenguin on August 19, 2008 at 2:22 PM
So,biulding a fort,is not my forte!
I heard this on Rush,back when,that
women applying their cosmetics,in
French is Farding,kinda like farting,
if i spelled it right!
canopfor on August 19, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Piano means floor in Italian. I learned that in Florence when I would pass all these buildings, see the sign near the entrance, and think how strange it was that so many piano teachers lived in each one.
Blake on August 19, 2008 at 2:24 PM
White people love criticizing grammar.
lorien1973 on August 19, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Leave my grammar out of this, she’s old. :-)
coldwarrior on August 19, 2008 at 2:24 PM
When people bring up things with this in conversation, I tell them it’s pronounced “blow me.”
ErikTheRed on August 19, 2008 at 2:24 PM
So why does he ignore the possibility that someone can be smart and mean?
That is the
stupidestmost stupid thing I have ever heard. Icategoricallyuncategorically deny any acceptance of his premise.There are only two types of people; those who believe that there are only two types of people, and those who do not.
Those who do not, nullify their premise by their existance.
singlemalt_18 on August 19, 2008 at 2:25 PM
LOL.. true.. where is that mysterious.. R!
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 2:25 PM
For-tay is the correct pronunciation. That guy is a plonker.
I remember reading a brief discussion on this a while back – Here’s one
For the sake of ease-of-communication, I try to use the “aluminum” variant…..but old habits do die hard.
LimeyGeek on August 19, 2008 at 2:25 PM
ROFLMAO!!!!
TheBigOldDog on August 19, 2008 at 2:26 PM
Wow, now we’re into pronunciation? I was just getting comfortable with commenting with my bad grammar and misspeled words. ;:- )
abinitioadinfinitum on August 19, 2008 at 2:26 PM
Limey :)
In 3rd grade I had a English School teacher. Neatest old lady in the world. Only problem is she taught the Queens English to us. I learned later… that Airbourne was not the way American english spelled it. I have other words I still spell that way… it makes me smile.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 2:27 PM
if that nitwit lectured me on how to say “Forte” I’d just respond….Byte me.
MNDavenotPC on August 19, 2008 at 2:28 PM
As a music major in college…we used fortay…this idiot can pontificate all he wants…who cares!
sabbott on August 19, 2008 at 2:28 PM
What? Fart??? Oh never mind
Wileygrl3 on August 19, 2008 at 2:29 PM
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 2:27 PM –
Behaviour will always remain behaviour…Sr. Mary Agnese, a good Nun, a firm disciplinarian, she was, made that clear to me at an early age.
That word “behaviour” was on every note she sent home to my parents…usually preceeded by “bad” “abhorent” “terrible”…to this day “behavior” just does not look right.
coldwarrior on August 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Sorry…but Mr. Nordlinger is just flat INCORRECT. The word forte has a “grave” accent over the ‘e’ meaning it’s pronounced fortAY.
It’s the same as people pronouncing the technological term “cache” as ‘CashAY’. The word “cache” derives from the French noun meaning a hidden storage place, and is properly pronounced as though it were spelled “cash”.
On the other hand, the French word ‘CachET’ is pronounced “CashAY” and means a mark, or quality of distinction.
I must admit, with the world seemingly going to hell in a handbasket, CORRECT pronunciation is probably not the most important item on anybody’s agenda.
alwyr on August 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Yeah….I’m with you there.
LimeyGeek on August 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Whilst in the army I was once stationed at Forte Lee, VA.
sdd on August 19, 2008 at 2:32 PM
The pronounce it that way to be more consistent with other element endings (e.g. “chromIUM”, “plutonIUM”, “barIUM”, etc). So, “auluminIUM” follows that pattern. I forgot why Americans say “auminUM” instead. I know there was a reason for it….which made it possible to argue that it was more correct than the British way (though, of course, they could argue that it was more correct their way since it followed the same pattern). But, that’s why they say it, anyway.
JadeNYU on August 19, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Don’t forget how Lieutenant is pronounced.
The British,Canadian way is,Left tenant!
canopfor on August 19, 2008 at 2:32 PM
You guys are about to start a nuclear (pronounced nukular) war over this, aren’t you.
I shudder to think how he feels about Southerisms.
BKennedy on August 19, 2008 at 2:32 PM
yep, smae problem here. But at least I catch myself now. Unfortunatley, when younger I was constantly teased by my peers and on ocation an actual teacher who would ask why I was spelling whatever that way and fail me.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 2:33 PM
Nordlinger’s correct. “fort” for specialty, “fortay” for music
funky chicken on August 19, 2008 at 2:33 PM
What’s worse? Forte Zonday, singing “Chocolatay Rain”.
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on August 19, 2008 at 2:33 PM
This is all schizzle.
When you can’t pronounce it, make up your own word. That way, you’re never wrong.
BobMbx on August 19, 2008 at 2:34 PM
OK….since I seem to be among fellow anal-retentives ;)
How about “species”? Is it pronounced spee-sheez or spee-seez?
LimeyGeek on August 19, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Southernisms also.
BKennedy on August 19, 2008 at 2:34 PM
wow.. should have done preview. LOL oh well.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 2:35 PM
tsk tsk tsk
Go stand in the corner
LimeyGeek on August 19, 2008 at 2:35 PM
spee, seize!
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 2:35 PM
Touche’ on the forte’ Ed. I love linguistics, grammar, etc ;-)
Christine on August 19, 2008 at 2:36 PM
Hey Ed–pull my finger! That causes me to farte.
radjah shelduck on August 19, 2008 at 2:36 PM
You guys don’t read Impromptus on a regular basis, I take it.
reaganaut on August 19, 2008 at 2:36 PM
Most rules for languages are primarily “after the fact”, and are constantly changing. Many times those changes are based solely upon social and cultural issues. For instance, thanks to the modern feminism movement, intelligent people use the third personal pronoun to refer to a singular antecedent, just so no gender issues are crossed. In fact we were told in translations to always use the word “person” even when “man” was used by the author. Thus, where is the controversy? Just chalk it up to the natural ebb and flow of language, and let‘s celebrate “fortay.” I’d rather we discuss the horrible reality that the phrase, “and I was like” is the modern signal for direct discourse. Also, Ed, I love this stuff. Don’t listen to those filthy Philistines on this site that can’t appreciate this post.
Weight of Glory on August 19, 2008 at 2:37 PM
reaganaut on August 19, 2008 at 2:36 PM –
Some of us, we can’t read at all…let along regularly. :-)
coldwarrior on August 19, 2008 at 2:37 PM
“I’ll have a grand Lat”.
BobMbx on August 19, 2008 at 2:38 PM
it’s speck-eez. :P
lorien1973 on August 19, 2008 at 2:38 PM
All I know is, when I was kid starting piano lessons, I was told “for-tay” was correct.
JetBoy on August 19, 2008 at 2:38 PM
“Forte” pronounced the same as “fort”?!? My 11-year old knows better than that.
I love linguistics arguments. Ever read any of Richard Lederer’s books?
connertown on August 19, 2008 at 2:39 PM
Buzzkill
BobMbx on August 19, 2008 at 2:39 PM
“…filthy Philistines on this site that can’t appreciate this post.”
Weight of Glory on August 19, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Hey, she bathed this week. But how do you know Philistine?
coldwarrior on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 PM
I was taught Nordlinger’s way by my doctor, who was also Chief of Surgery at his hospital. I have been saying it that way ever since.
Don’t count me in the Don’t Care crowd. English was my second language, and correct pronunciation has always been an issue of pride for me.
You other guys can watch parallel bars or whatever. I would love to see how this one turns out. This is sport for me!
RushBaby on August 19, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Very true. In Greek the ‘P’ in “pneuma” (spirit/wind/breath) is pronounced and not silent as it is in our English “pneumatic” (new-matik).
Weight of Glory on August 19, 2008 at 2:41 PM
I used the word both in music and in fencing classes (forte applying to the strongest portion of the foil, which is right near the handle).
In both we used the “fortay” pronunciation.
I can’t speak for my music teacher’s background, but my fencing instructor studied in France.
Esthier on August 19, 2008 at 2:41 PM
it’s speck-eez. :P
lorien1973 on August 19, 2008 at 2:38 PM
Yeah, a speck-ee-z…like where my grandpa worked back in Prohibition.
coldwarrior on August 19, 2008 at 2:41 PM
How come we say “iorn” when it’s spelled “iron”?
RushBaby on August 19, 2008 at 2:42 PM
I learned it the same way Nordlinger apparently did. I avoid using the word in conversation, just because so many people pronounce the word wrong that they may as well be pronouncing it right.
RightOFLeft on August 19, 2008 at 2:42 PM
Is that pronounced Philis-STEINs or Phillis-STEENs?
aengus on August 19, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Dang, Ed, you’ve convinced me about something 5 minutes ago I didn’t care at all about.
Nessuno on August 19, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Don’t we all…
Weight of Glory on August 19, 2008 at 2:43 PM
It’s sad, but so very true.
Weight of Glory on August 19, 2008 at 2:45 PM
Depends on whether or not the speaker is Jewish.
Weight of Glory on August 19, 2008 at 2:47 PM
I’ll go with pronouncing piano the way the talking cat does.
Sekhmet on August 19, 2008 at 2:49 PM
I understand that Obama said “Making these decisions are above my pay grade” because he wanted to steer clear of this controversy if he had mispronounced “…decisions are not my forte.”
AverageJoe on August 19, 2008 at 2:50 PM
heh…and is it Caribbean as in “Ca-rib-ean” or “Care-a-bee-an”…
JetBoy on August 19, 2008 at 2:53 PM
80 comments in 50 minutes. We can do better than that.
coldwarrior on August 19, 2008 at 2:53 PM
There are two words of the same spelling, one borrowed from French and the other from Italian. It used to be the case that the one from French that means a person’s strong point was pronounced as one syllable (/fɒːt/ ).
But the influence of the other word, which retained a stronger link to its original Italian pronunciation, is too strong and is winning. It is now thought acceptable in Britain to say the two words the same way (/fɒːtɪ/), and the new edition of Chambers and the New Oxford English Dictionary both say so. This has reached the point where I have seen the word, in the sense of “strong point”, mistakenly spelled forté, presumably in imitation of café. The older pronunciation is still heard, however, and some people would consider the version in two syllables for the word meaning “strong point” to be wrong.
There was a discussion on alt.usage.english about this some time ago, from which I gather American usage is more conservative. But the Random House Webster’s unabridged dictionary says: “A two-syllable pronunciation is increasingly heard, especially from younger educated speakers, perhaps owing to confusion with the musical term forte. Both the one- and two-syllable pronunciations of FORTE are now considered standard”. So though there appears to be a transatlantic distinction on this one, it is slight, and decreasing.
From Michael Quinion’s World Wide Words web site. It’s a great site, browse it if you have time.
jaime on August 19, 2008 at 2:56 PM
He’s techincally correct, but not only is it a little bit late to try and change everyone’s pronunciation, but who really cares?
Think_b4_speaking on August 19, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Stop me if you’ve heard this one. Two guys were driving through Florida, and were in a heated argument as they passed through Kissimmee. One said it was pronounced KISS-a-me, and the other said it was pronounced ki-SI-me. Tired of the arguing, they pulled into a local restaurant, and asked an employee, “Please, very clearly and slowly, tell us exactly where we are.” Confused, the woman slowly declares, “B-U-R-G-E-R K-I-N-G.”
Weight of Glory on August 19, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Where I come from, the use of the word “their” when referring to a singular entity is not a sign of intelligence, but of wishy-washy vaguery.
Ex:
They wiped the sweat from their brow, preparing for the next pitch. It came in low… they swung, and hit a home run beyond right feild. They rounded the bases and their team cheered for their walk-off victory.
Only girls play softball. Only boys play baseball. All uses of the word “they” or “their,” barring the last because it is plural, should be either masculine or feminine, because otherwise one would be unable to discern what game was being played. That has an impact on your mental image, and possibly your perception of the events.
This PC copout has caused the value of the story to go down. It isn’t a sign of intelligence, but rather a sign of a deep, impenetrable stupidity in the name of political correctness. Your “translation” gurus have done you a disservice, but you already knew that.
Forte vs. Forte isn’t a huge deal, but rampant use of the third personal pronoun is disgusting.
BKennedy on August 19, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Ha.
My best friend and I, in 7th grade, had a fight about how to say the word striped.
We put $ on it.
Turns out, we were both right. What a bummer. I wanted the cash. :)
bridgetown on August 19, 2008 at 3:04 PM
I was being sarcastic. I couldn’t stand having poor syntax for the purpose of political correctness. That is why in all my translations, I never used “person” for “man”, and always had my modifiers agree in gender, number, and case with the antecedent’s.
Weight of Glory on August 19, 2008 at 3:06 PM
Gee, I wonder if we’ll get 500 comments out of this thread?
mimi1220 on August 19, 2008 at 3:10 PM
…and then there’s the instrument, piano forte, which means loud/powerful friggin’ piano.
They are both from the Latin, fortis. Loud in musical terms is synonymous with strong.
I like Americans that pronounce absurd, “ab-zurd”, like Elton John. It’s like fingernails on the chalkboard. Same with tissue as “tis-soo”, instead of “tish-ooo”.
Hening on August 19, 2008 at 3:11 PM
This is not the sentence structure I thought I knew. ;)
BKennedy on August 19, 2008 at 3:12 PM
Ed (braveheart) Morrissey. We salute you.
locomotivebreath1901 on August 19, 2008 at 3:13 PM
This needs a hotseat poll.
Dusty on August 19, 2008 at 3:14 PM
Please do not wind surf with harpsichords, either….
Lockstein13 on August 19, 2008 at 3:14 PM
you mean absurd is ub-serd
and for tissue it is tis-shoe
American’s have different speach mannerisms. Might wanna remember that.
upinak on August 19, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Heh.
Weight of Glory on August 19, 2008 at 3:16 PM
daily stupid
custer on August 19, 2008 at 3:16 PM
In Mississippi, we pronounce it “forty” as in “My forty is my eggselent vokabularry”.
lionheart on August 19, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Tomato! Tomhato! Osama! Obama! Let’s call the whole thing off…
andycanuck on August 19, 2008 at 3:19 PM
I’ll just be happy when people stop using the word “irregardless.” It’s a double negative. I know it shows up in some dictionaries, but the correct term is either “regardless” or “irrespective.”
CurtZHP on August 19, 2008 at 3:20 PM
How about Lackadaisical.
Drives me NUTS when people say LackSUHdaisical.
.
Or let me ax you ….
.
by the door …hehe.
.
Germans still say co-lo-nel – like they’re hooked on syllable phonics.
.
And then there’s LEFTENENT ( it was actually first pronounced this way for centuries)
or lutenand and lyeutenaunt -
/lju’tɛnənt/ – was not in general employ, giving the pronunciation current at the time as /lɛv’tɛnənt/ or /lɪv’tɛnənt/. – Lieutenant
.
VEEDER SAIN.
shooter on August 19, 2008 at 3:22 PM
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