Now this is controversy!
posted at 2:07 pm on August 19, 2008 by Ed Morrissey
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Jay Nordlinger knows how to provoke a rapid response. Don’t make an argument on politics or religion — accuse people of mispronunciation. Nordlinger claims that the standard American pronunciation of forte should sound exactly like the fort in Fort Knox, not for-TAY, as most pronounce the word meaning a strength or specialty:
On the subject of words, someone wrote me the other day to say, “I’ve always pronounced the English word ‘forte’ — meaning strength or expertise — ‘fort.’ But people deride me for it.” That’s because they’re ignorant (and if they deride, mean, too). I have addressed this topic before, and it’s an evergreen one. “Forte” meaning strength or expertise is pronounced “fort.” “Forte” meaning loud in music is pronounced “fortay.” (The one word we borrow from French, the other from Italian.)
Allow me to stoke this controversy by vehemently (but politely) disagreeing. First, forte in Italian primarily means “strong”, even musically. Piano means “soft”, not quiet, and mezzo-forte means moderately strong, not primarily moderately loud. The terms relate to how the music is played by the musician more than the volume control, which is admittedly a subtle distinction. At least, that’s how I learned it when studying music in my childhood, and the Collier’s dictionary supports the interpretation of my music instructors.
The French Connection doesn’t work, either. Fort in French is a masculine noun, which means that its pronunciation matches the English for, not fort. The ‘t’ would only get pronounced in French if followed by an ‘e’, which does not happen in the noun version of the word, which is the application here. It only gets put in feminine form when used as an adjective modifying a feminine noun; otherwise, the word is fort and pronounced for. The spelling of the word forte comes from the Italian and not the French, and therefore the Italian pronunciation should follow.
Oh, and fort in French can also mean “loud”, in the exact same context as forte in Italian.
I eagerly await Nordlinger’s rebuttal. Forget tax policy — this could get much uglier.
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My college English teacher was the first one I ever heard saying that it was fort not for-te
That being said, the dictionary more or less backs up the fort camp.
Forte is pronounced like fort when talking about one’s strong point or the part of a sword blade. Fort-tey is listed as an “often” pronounciation.
Forte as a music direction is pronounced for-tey.
highhopes on August 19, 2008 at 3:25 PM
The Internets says…
Nordlinger is technically correct. “For-tay” should only be used within the context of music. Yet like with most things, Mob Rule. Kinda like how “hacker” almost always gets used with a negative connotation, even though that’s not what the technically correct meaning of it is. That has ceased to matter once the Mob got a hold of the term.
Seixon on August 19, 2008 at 3:27 PM
I hated fortay, until I hit fiftay. Then fortay didn’t seem so bad.
My two pet peeves?
Irregardless and ‘could care less’.
pistolero on August 19, 2008 at 3:29 PM
This is a generational thing.
If you’re over 55, it’s fort.
If you’re under 55, it’s for-tay.
gridlock2 on August 19, 2008 at 3:31 PM
What percentage of people COMMENTING here haven’t even bothered to check a single dictionary?
“Fort” is correct. My father (a former editor at the Washington Times) taught me this one long ago. Only editors care about language this much but please don’t just argue with the experts without even doing a little research.
We’re supposed to be a cut above Daily Kos here.
Pythagoras on August 19, 2008 at 3:33 PM
Well, my Webster’s (1929) says ‘fort’ = specialty and confines fort-ay = loud, for music. Same for my Webster’s (1989). Fowler’s (1985) recommendations match Webster’s pronunciation.
I use fort-ay to mean specialty and always will, which is weird since it’s the first time I can think of where I’ll ignore two books I cling to when I’m not clinging to my gun and Bible.
Dusty on August 19, 2008 at 3:34 PM
OK, so fort is the correct pronunciation. Point conceded and painful retraining is now required.
But doesn’t it sound a bit silly to say, General Washington’s fort was best witnessed in a fort?
pistolero on August 19, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Hey, gridlock2, I’m over 55 and fortay for me, you ageist thing, you.
Grantman on August 19, 2008 at 3:34 PM
I’m only 26.
Esthier on August 19, 2008 at 3:38 PM
Dictionary.com backs up “fort”. It’s a french-derived word.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/forte
My father was a PhD in English (and yes, he was quite the Lib). He argued against fortay vehemently.
nukemhill on August 19, 2008 at 3:40 PM
So are you saying that you can fart fort or forte?
Torch on August 19, 2008 at 3:42 PM
Darn. I was hoping the headline introduced a Mozart vs. Beethoven debate. Linguistics isn’t really my for-tay. ;)
artlover on August 19, 2008 at 3:43 PM
And it is probably easier to do so because the minute you pronounce it correctly you end up in 20 minute debate with somebody insisting that it should be for-tay.
highhopes on August 19, 2008 at 3:51 PM
This is what I was taught as a kid. Two different words with different meanings and pronunciations. I’m sticking with it because I expect my mother would roll over in her grave if I ever said something like “tennis is not my forTAY.”
In other non-news, nerdy parents beget nerdy kids.
Gilda on August 19, 2008 at 3:56 PM
As someone in the architectural field, the thing that get’s me is when people call “concrete”, “cement”.
FYI: Portland cement is an ingredient in concrete.
carbon_footprint on August 19, 2008 at 4:07 PM
Dictionary.com backs up “fort”. It’s a french-derived word.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/forte
My father was a PhD in English (and yes, he was quite the Lib). He argued against fortay vehemently.
nukemhill on August 19, 2008 at 3:40 PM
Dictionary . com says either is correct. Which doesn’t help. But, Pianoforte is Italian, not French.
JetBoy on August 19, 2008 at 4:10 PM
cripes…that’s supposed to be a quote, not strike…
JetBoy on August 19, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Wutayvar.
Mazztek on August 19, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Love ‘irregardless’! Always used to show up on the TSWE (the part of the SAT that was neither Verbal nor Math).
I wonder how ‘couldn’t care less’ became ‘could care less’?
To me it has always seemed like a sarcastic use of the term, like “… as if I could care less” (which implies I couldn’t care less). Don’t know -
RD on August 19, 2008 at 4:16 PM
[highhopes on August 19, 2008 at 3:51 PM]
LMAO. You got that right. My sisters would never let me hear the end of that fox paw.
Dusty on August 19, 2008 at 4:16 PM
[carbon_footprint on August 19, 2008 at 4:07 PM]
And it annoys me something awful when my colleagues utter the word “impacted” just because some clown in the EPA created the EIS. I know it is a part of our professional jargon now, but still, when the war starts, I’m going after them first regardless of which side they are on.
Dusty on August 19, 2008 at 4:23 PM
My for-tay is racing in the grand pricks
Corsair on August 19, 2008 at 4:26 PM
Again, which experts are we talking about here? Proscriptive grammarians? Etymologists? Linguists?
If the argument is that ‘forte’ meaning “area of expertise” is from French and therefore was originally pronounced with a single syllable, I’ve got no problem with that.
But, I don’t think there is a strong argument for “fort” being the only correct pronunciation simply because the word is French in origin. My roommate (a linguist that specializes in Romance linguistics) is fluent in French and says that pronouncing it like “fort” would be just as wrong as “forte” if the argument is to stick to the original French pronunciation because the French “r” sound is very different than the English “r” sound. In other words, “fort” isn’t all that much closer to the French than “forte”. Which begs the questions, why would it be fine to change some sounds and not others?
On that same note, since “August” and “automatic” are from Latin and originally were pronounced something akin to “avgust and “aftomatic” is it incorrect to say “ah-gust” and “otto-matic”?
When foreign words get borrowed, they get nativized. In this case, there was another foreign borrowing that slowly won out as the dominant pronunciation. It happens all over in the language without people caring. So, I don’t see why the ‘experts’ (proscriptive grammarians) are correct when they choose a couple words to focus on.
It reminds me of the somewhat popular grammar book “Eats Shoots and Leaves” from a few years ago. The author was quite the stickler for grammar; however, she got to one rule on the semicolon and said something along the lines of, “Even though this is technically correct, I find it to be a bit pedantic and feel that it’s alright to simply use a comma in this case.” In other words, “I’ve made a career of torturing others regarding where they put their commas, but, I’ll do what I please.”
JadeNYU on August 19, 2008 at 4:37 PM
unclench that sphincter
jaime on August 19, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Does anyone really care? BTW the correct name of the instrument with black and white keys is a piano-forte because it can be played softly or loudly.
That reminds me that Obama is a piano without keys.
dalec on August 19, 2008 at 4:51 PM
You might have missed my entire point.
There is no part of this nation where it is normal to say ub-zerd (note the ‘z’). It’s ub-serd. The former is a put-on. No American, born and raised here says tis-sue (no ‘h’ sound like tish-ew.
Hening on August 19, 2008 at 4:51 PM
So sorry Ed! My sole source for etymology is Marina at hotforwords.com
Nothing personal you understand.
LCL4 on August 19, 2008 at 5:09 PM
For-tay sounds much better. It’s my for-tay. Sounds much better than it’s my fort.
SoulGlo on August 19, 2008 at 5:33 PM
Pardon me, but this just seems like a tussle between two old fortes.
Dr. Charles G. Waugh on August 19, 2008 at 5:35 PM
Good entry, Jaime. The OED has:
Call me old fashioned, but I’m going with “formerly” here (as also in, ex. gr., asp’ect and per’sever).
Tzetzes on August 19, 2008 at 5:40 PM
P.S. If you’re going to do it for-tay, please accent the first syllable!
Tzetzes on August 19, 2008 at 5:41 PM
One of my great joys was when Nordlinger published a letter I wrote him. I told him that the big story in England, where I was living at the time, was that David Beckham was moving from Madrid to Los Angeles. “And my first thought was, ‘now he’ll really have to learn Spanish!’”
Tzetzes on August 19, 2008 at 5:47 PM
Well shee-oot, Ed. Sounds like an awfully slow news day. Ain’t it great to be an American and carp on the little things? LOLOLOL
gryphon202 on August 19, 2008 at 5:54 PM
Ah well….it seems there really are sufficient grounds for debate over the pronunciation of forte.
From the UK perspective, I have never heard it pronounced “fort”, always “for-tay”. I happened to major in english language and literature, and was completely oblivious to this alternate pronuciation until I moved across the pond.
I happen to like the italian variant for its cadence, regardless of its semantic validity. I doubt I could break this habit if I tried.
I take a pragmatic view of language - that its purpose is to be a spoken and written medium for communication - and accept that ‘evolution’ takes place over generations. This is an emergent phenomenon and is interesting to observe in its own right.
There will always be arseheads that make a point of stepping on people just to try and show off how clever they believe themselves to be. Contentious pronunciations can usefully serve to reveal these pillocks.
LimeyGeek on August 19, 2008 at 6:20 PM
In my experience, most people who use the word “forte” need to be punched in the face.
(BTW, I’m 19, and I now say “fort” because it’s, like, correct. There’s no accent on the “e”, people!)
Damian G. on August 19, 2008 at 6:41 PM
I’ve actually heard this before, and abide by Nordlinger’s (or whoever’s) rule.
Nazi.
urbancenturion on August 19, 2008 at 6:54 PM
As with most words which make the leap from one language to another, the original French or Italian pronunciation of the word is, in fact, irrelevant.
JM Hanes on August 19, 2008 at 7:04 PM
It looks like Nordlinger is correct, but with Ed scoring a point, too.
I have an old Cassel’s French-English dictionary in front of me that, admittedly, uses British English for the English wording rather than Americanisms but it gives the following for the English word being translated into the French equivalent…
I can’t reproduce the funny, pronunciation characters, but it gives “fort” as the first’s pronunciation; and “fortay” as the Italian-inspired musical term’s pronunciation.
So the British English usage is “fort”, using the word in its French sense. But, and here Ed is correct, the irony is that the expression said in French uses the masculine form and should therefore be pronounced “for” and not “fort”. And, I’d point out, that in Italian forte is also used in the phrase “not his strong point” so supporting the Italian-inspired “fortay” by English speakers seems supportable to me, even if the English mispronouncing the French version is the basis of the expressiion as used in (Britsh) English.
BTW, my ethnic roots include Italian, so I’ve always used the Italian pronunciation.
andycanuck on August 19, 2008 at 7:22 PM
Screwed that up, even using Preview, but clear enough, I hope.
8^(
andycanuck on August 19, 2008 at 7:26 PM
That got me thinking… could there be another [rational] reason to pronounce forte “fortay”? If everyone pronounced it as “fort”, wouldn’t that make it indistinguishable from the real word “fort”, and thus be confusing?
In that eventuality, every time someone talked about a person’s “fort”, we’d have wonder if they meant the person’s main strength or their military building!
RD on August 19, 2008 at 7:43 PM
Found an mildly interesting note that might explain things from my side of the pond….
LimeyGeek on August 19, 2008 at 7:49 PM
http://lexitist.tribe.net/
LimeyGeek on August 19, 2008 at 7:52 PM
OK, for my fellow nerds, this article provides some perspective on this issue, particularly from the “descriptive vs prescriptive” schools of thought.
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/DFW_present_tense.html
mikeyboss on August 19, 2008 at 7:53 PM
Good point. Disambiguation is a wonderful thing.
As quoted above, if the english wished to approximate the french version, the choice of spelling seems inconsistent. I have also seen an acute accent over the “e”…..but again, as noted, the english have a horrifying knack for bastardising language to facilitate pronunciation.
Why the hell are we borrowing words from the frogs and wops anyway? Bah humbug…..
LimeyGeek on August 19, 2008 at 8:01 PM
I am alarmed at how engrossed I am in that article…..
LimeyGeek on August 19, 2008 at 8:11 PM
I’m glad to see someone took me up on it. If you like that, you might want to check out some more of Wallace’s work.
mikeyboss on August 19, 2008 at 8:20 PM
My deeper interest in language stems from my academic research into formalism and logic. Your linked article resonates with me.
LimeyGeek on August 19, 2008 at 8:32 PM
And thank you Ed Morrissey for this new soap opera, “Life Begins at Forte.”
Dr. Charles G. Waugh on August 19, 2008 at 10:04 PM
Language is not my “ball of wax”
bailiwick
TheSitRep on August 19, 2008 at 10:22 PM
I work in IT, and what gets me is when business analysts start saying ‘datum’ to refer to a singular piece of data, because, you know, data is the plural of datum. Or they’ll say ‘data are’
Yeah, IF WE WERE SPEAKING LATIN. But we speak American and we say data by GOD! Do we say ‘Agendum’. Thanks for letting me vent.
tlynch001 on August 19, 2008 at 11:17 PM
It took years, but they finally extinguished (har!) the use of the word inflammable when referring to something that is prone to catch on fire.
When I was a little kid, I used to see the word inflammable on the back of gasoline tanker trucks.
Yes, it’s still proper usage according to the dictionary entry, but a darn dangerous use when you consider that the prefix in means “not”, e.g. inconclusive, inaccurate, etc.
Taking a foreign language course made me appreciate the difficulty in learning English as a second language.
electric-rascal on August 20, 2008 at 12:51 AM
Forget the whole mess. I’m using the phrase “cup of tea” from now on. :) :) :)
Theophile on August 20, 2008 at 3:22 AM
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